I find it hard to believe that by level 10 you had nothing relevant to making your build better to invest in. I also played nightblade and was very careful with my skill selection, but i easily had 17 points spent by level 9 or so and wanted more. (And this with only a single weapon, single armor type and no tradeskill investment).
I kid you not. I was trying to build a stealth based single target damage dealer. I saw 3? passive stealth skills, 1 of which I already had and the rest were not until a few more levels. I already had my 3 main attacks, and since there is no cooldown why would I get more skills that do less damage at higher cost? All I really needed in terms of active skills were either a stun or a debuff, and I already had a short stun. There were no passives available to me to boost any of the skills I would have liked. The only skill available to me in Dual Wield was a low damage aoe attack that I wasn't very interested in. Sure, I could have invested in armor more, but as I already said I don't want a well-rounded character, I want a specialist.
I would have invested in poisons as well, had they been available.
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by bcbully Point 2 is spot on. Each skill line and each weapon could use 5 more skills, sooner than later.
What good would that do? You can only use 5 active skills. With 1 weapon and 1 class that's 5 out of 20. What good would it be for it to be 5 out of 25? So, instead of 15 skills you don't use, you'd now have 20. What's the point? (i'm purposely excluding ultimates)
It's not about having more skills on your bar so much as it is about differentiating your character from others. With the amount of skills we have now, I can be pretty certain that any other character who uses Dual Wield will be using a nearly identical skill-set, especially if they chose to focus on it. There are only 5? active skills, and most passives are no-brainers. That really isn't much diversity, and your character is certainly not unique.
At least in Rift, you can spend nearly your entire pool of skill points in a single soul's tree, if you wish to. That creates significantly more variety among archetypes.
You can add more passives, but there are already plenty passives across other trees that are useful to just about ANY build.
As I pointed out, I was already having trouble finding any more passives to suit my goals.
Originally posted by superconducting
Couldn't agree with you more on questing.
One of my MAJOR criticisms was that most quests are usually just "follow the marker whilst going back & forth between NPCs and occasionally pressing the use button here/there". They tended not to be very intellectually challenging or engaging. More often than not, very little thinking was required to complete most quests (e.g. very few puzzles). Now, that isn't true of all quests-- some were quite good such as the main questline. But on the whole, I did not feel the quality for several quests was up to par for an Elder Scrolls game.
Agreed. I am glad that they are at least putting in some effort in regards to the story and dialogue, but I do wish the quests required more thought. Getting rid of those quest markers would be a good start.
Originally posted by Gestankfaust
I don't understand the negative feelings toward questing. IT'S NOT GONNA GET BETTER!!! [/quote]
It can easily get better. Recycling the same quest design in every town is putting the bar pretty low.
No MMO can or will make it better. Kill x of whatever....SO WHAT?!?! What kind of quests are you expecting? You HAVE to have kill quests or fetch quests to have enough quests.
"Enough" quests? As far as I'm concerned, the occasional larger-scale, well written and designed quest would be plenty enough for me. Far preferable to dozens of tedious, repetitive, insignificant quests. But as I said, my main problem with the quests is that they're so essential to leveling.
Originally posted by iseldiera
It is refreshing to see some constructive, non-troll posts about concerns on the game.
Skills. In this sense I disagree with you. Your concern about "assassination not having enough choices" does not reflect the truth, because you can make a super-assasination focused rogue type character by spending points in multiple skill paths that will make your role stronger. It does not have to be under one line that is called "assassination", for this purpose.
As I already said, I was having significant difficulty finding more skills -- active or passive -- to suit my build. There was nothing available to me to help my stealthing ability, or my single target damage/debuffs. I was running out of options and being forced into skill lines like light or medium armor just to spend a point. It is not my intention to build a well-balanced character. I want to build a character that does one particular thing, and does it extremely well. A glass cannon, for instance.
Crafting. Poison comment I agree, but regarding specialization, you have to see that they opted for the EVE style approach to things. If you spend 12 months and all the time and energy and mats and specialization in terms of skill points, then yes you will be able to get high in each. But note the time restraints note the inventory restraints and you will understand not everyone s going this path. It won't be easy.[/quote]
Regardless of the restraints, the fact of the matter is that some people are primarily interested in crafting. If there is not significant opportunity for specialization, then eventually all of those crafting-focused characters are going to end up exactly the same. Whether it takes 2 weeks, a month, or a year doesn't really matter to me. The choices I make when building my character mean a lot less to me when I know that in the end they aren't going to make any difference.
Phasing and instancing. I have been calling out to devs to make games where our choices and even our performance matters. Coming from the days of Shadowbane, where if your guild is not good enough in diplomacy and relations with others, you could end up not only losing all the castle/city you built for months, your guild would be eradicated from map entirely. Now with todays carebear mmo community who cannot put up with this system, i understand the devs are trying to find ways to find a balance between this very extreme way of affecting the world vs not affecting it at all. The answer was phasing where you would personally see the effects of your decisions and performance. It is a horrible, horrible compromise and it has to go. I completely agree with your feelings on this and how it actually BREAKS immersion rather than IMPROVES it.
I said it above. I personally expected the same sort of high-quality quests as in other Elder Scrolls games. Quests with depth that just captivate you... thrill you... fascinate you... and perplex you.
Relatively speaking though, in the mmo world, ESO quests are probably a step up.
Seriously? Most of the quests in Skyrim were of average MMO quality, at best. Lore has always been a strong suit of Elder Scrolls games, but the actual story you participate in has been getting weaker and weaker. What I have seen of ESO so far appears to have substantially higher average quality (narratively speaking) in it's quests than either Skyrim or Oblivion.
Comparing to other MMOs rather than other ES games, the only ones that even belong in the same conversation as ESO in terms of narrative quality/emphasis are TSW and TOR.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Howdy. To be perfectly honest, I was letting ESO fly under my radar for the last year+. Nothing I had seen or heard had made me very interested. I was even invited to one of the earlier betas and never got around to it because I simply forgot about it. Finally I took part in the most recent beta, and just as I suspected I was fairly underwhelmed. However, like many others, I kept going back to it and after about level 8 or so I started to really warm up to it. Now I'm actually legitimately considering pre-ordering it, but I do have some concerns leading up to release.
Quests. Some are better than average, but many are still standard MMO fare kill x of y sort of deals. Aside from the quality, I feel there is just too much emphasis on quests. Much like other MMOs, I feel that I level and progress much more slowly if I'm not doing every quest I find. This is especially harmful in an environment like Elder Scrolls, where going wherever and doing whatever is strongly encouraged. I still felt pretty pidgeon-holed into quests, and I hope they will increase relative rewards of other activities, or decrease rewards of quests, or some combination of the two.
Skills. Much has been made of the many different skill lines and build combinations, but I actually find them somewhat lacking. Character progression is one of the most important things to me, and I often found myself storing 5 or more skill points at a time, because no new skills of interest had become available to me. I like to make true specialist characters, and all I wanted to do was invest in the Assassination skill line, but I was pretty much forced to go into other skill lines I wasn't really interested in. I feel like either there needs to be a lot more available skills/morphs, less abundant skill points, or both.
Crafting. Crafting is another thing that is pretty important to me in an MMO. Overall, I felt the crafting was better than average. However, I think it needs a few changes. First of all, I strongly dislike the fact that any character can max all crafting professions. It makes all characters homogenous toward the end game, and encourages a more solo playstyle. I feel that an MMO is meant to be played with others, and that crafting in particular really shines when it requires teamwork of others. I'd like to see more limitations to crafting professions, and more ability to specialize. In addition, I feel there is just too little variety. Yes, there are something like 8 traits available, but I find them pretty underwhelming. It seems like certain traits will be the obvious choice for certain gameplay. I'd like to see more item mods, more varied traits, and likewise for enchantments. I'd also really like to see poisons for Alchemy. I was pretty disappointed by their absence as I often play a poison specialized character in Elder Scrolls games.
Phasing and instancing. I recognize their uses, but I think they should be used very sparingly. Since the old days of MMOs, I really prefer public dungeons to any type of instancing. It makes the world more immersive, provides more dynamic opportunities for grouping, and also opens the door for mixing pve and pvp together. I can understand for very specific story elements when you don't want to spoil things for other players around, but I dislike the fact that I can be in the same town as another player, and we see two completely different things. I feel like that's a little excessive as far as phasing and instancing go.
Despite getting more hooked as the game went on, I feel like I'm at that critical point where I'm still on the fence and anything somewhat significant could push me either way. If at least some of the above things were addressed, I'm pretty certain I would jump in. If not, I could go either way and probably won't bother.
Thoughts? Agree/disagree?
You feel what you feel.Frankly the tone of your writing sounds a bit negative on the game...and burnt out.My advice..... let it go....and see what happens.
Originally posted by bcbully Point 2 is spot on. Each skill line and each weapon could use 5 more skills, sooner than later.
What good would that do? You can only use 5 active skills. With 1 weapon and 1 class that's 5 out of 20. What good would it be for it to be 5 out of 25? So, instead of 15 skills you don't use, you'd now have 20. What's the point? (i'm purposely excluding ultimates)
You can add more passives, but there are already plenty passives across other trees that are useful to just about ANY build.
Because the other guy does not want to use lightning bolt, he wants to use frostbolt. And the third guy would love a fireball lot more than either of the previous choises. The more options the better.
Because the other guy does not want to use lightning bolt, he wants to use frostbolt. And the third guy would love a fireball lot more than either of the previous choises. The more options the better.
Why add more skills to the current lines? Why not just add more skill lines that you can earn access to, with the same number of skills as the current lines? Lots of options for your 10+2 slots are good, will mean that many more character builds out there.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
A couple of things I don't understand OP. You wanted a stealth dual wield character, but didn't want to spend point in Medium armor "reduces stealth detection radius" passive?
Is there a reason why you just didn't spend any point?s Nothing in the game, as far as I know, forces you to spend points in abilities you don't want.
And lastly, is there a reason why specialized builds focusing on the exact same thing wouldn't be very similar? If I decide I want to be a doctor, there are many choices and each one is distinct from the next. The same way a dual wielding healer will have different choices from a dual wielding tank. But if I want to be a neurosurgeon, if I don't have the skills another neurosurgeon does then I'm lacking.
I hope my analogy was sufficient. I don't see why you would expect another player who decided to make the same character you are making have a completely different build.
You feel what you feel.Frankly the tone of your writing sounds a bit negative on the game...and burnt out.My advice..... let it go....and see what happens.
Well I can hardly be burnt out since I only played to about level 12. My writing probably sounds negative because it's a thread about my concerns. If it were a thread about my favorite things it might sound a bit different.
Originally posted by Kuinn
Because the other guy does not want to use lightning bolt, he wants to use frostbolt. And the third guy would love a fireball lot more than either of the previous choises. The more options the better.
Precisely.
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Why add more skills to the current lines? Why not just add more skill lines that you can earn access to, with the same number of skills as the current lines? Lots of options for your 10+2 slots are good, will mean that many more character builds out there.
I'd be fine with either option, as long as there are more skills available to complement builds.
Originally posted by Arataki
A couple of things I don't understand OP. You wanted a stealth dual wield character, but didn't want to spend point in Medium armor "reduces stealth detection radius" passive?
Pretty sure I did. Like I said, I picked up the only stealth related passive that was available to me. There was only like 2 more I had to look forward to, and none were available to spend my 5 stored skill points on.
Is there a reason why you just didn't spend any point?s Nothing in the game, as far as I know, forces you to spend points in abilities you don't want.
I didn't spend the points. Like I said, I had at least 5 stored up, but they're even more useless being unspent than if they were spent on something I didn't want. By the time the skills I wanted became available to me, my pool of unspent skill points would be much larger.
And lastly, is there a reason why specialized builds focusing on the exact same thing wouldn't be very similar? If I decide I want to be a doctor, there are many choices and each one is distinct from the next. The same way a dual wielding healer will have different choices from a dual wielding tank. But if I want to be a neurosurgeon, if I don't have the skills another neurosurgeon does then I'm lacking.
Can any Neurosurgeon say they know all there is to know about being a Neurosurgeon? How long would that take? The problem is that the "Neurosurgeon" skill tree is so small that after spending just a few points you're forced to take skills from the "Orthodontist" and "Pediatrician" skill lines, among others. The result is that there are no Neurosurgeons. As I said, there is an inability to specialize.
I hope my analogy was sufficient. I don't see why you would expect another player who decided to make the same character you are making have a completely different build.
What do you mean by the "same character"? A stealth based, single target damage dealer? I would expect there to still by variety, even at that specific level. Even among Neurosurgeons, some may specialize in specific operations over others. But in the game, there is not just little variety among Neurosurgeons, but little variety among Doctors as a whole, because they're all forced to share many of the same medical fields.
That's a whole lot of analogys, but I think it's fairly intuitive to understand.
Looking forward to the next beta weekend to see what, if anything, they've changed. Anyone have any idea when that might be? Would be nice to be able to discuss these things on a beta forum. If things have improved I'll start looking for a good deal on the digital imperial edition.
By same character, I mean your dual wield, stealth, assassin.
Stealth based characters have a wide range, using all the classes and weapons. About the only common point they would have is medium armor. I can run a stealth Two hander as it does come with an execute in its ability line, go Sorc and Storm magic for another one. And would play different. Plenty of room for specialization there.
Someone else who chose to dual wield, stealth, assassin would be incredibly similar, yes. Stealth based assassins would have similar play styles because again, stealth based assassin? Not seeing the problem
You mentioned being "forced" to put points into things you had no interest in. That's why I asked.
The analogy...still works? Another dual wield stealth assassin may put points into Siphon. Or spend points on crafting. Or Shadow. Or be a Vampire. Specialization. One dual wield stealth assassin sustains in fights better, maybe because he's an Imperial with lifesteal abilities. Or maybe they want to be all up front burst and go Khajiit or something.
Maybe you don't have a secondary weapon. But someone else goes Bow.
I'm not sure where you got the idea there is no room for it. Not having exactly what you want != no specialization. Really narrow skill lines is pretty much the definition of specialization.
What do you mean by the "same character"? A stealth based, single target damage dealer? I would expect there to still by variety, even at that specific level. Even among Neurosurgeons, some may specialize in specific operations over others. But in the game, there is not just little variety among Neurosurgeons, but little variety among Doctors as a whole, because they're all forced to share many of the same medical fields.
Well, here is an experiment for us. I just built a level 10 stealthy dual wield character - i restricted myself to NB skills that would ONLY be useful to stealth-based damage dealer. I did take the AE stun ultimate, because i thought it might come in useful, but you can just replace that with any other ultimate if you want to be REALLY strict.
This build uses 21 points (at level 10 i had 17 in-game, but i figure if i knew the game better i'd probably have 21).
Take a look, is it totally identical to yours? Or is there some difference? I've no idea which skills YOU picked, I just picked what i liked. I purposely didn't grab some of the "hidden" beneficial skills like guild and other weapons, just stuck to what makes sense for a stealthy assassin type.
Originally posted by HighMarshal My guess would be next weekend.
Looks like you may be right.
Originally posted by Arataki
By same character, I mean your dual wield, stealth, assassin.
Stealth based characters have a wide range, using all the classes and weapons.
That's because there are so few skills that are directly related to stealth. That isn't variety among stealth itself.
About the only common point they would have is medium armor. I can run a stealth Two hander as it does come with an execute in its ability line, go Sorc and Storm magic for another one. And would play different. Plenty of room for specialization there.
Taking something specific (ie: stealth) and applying it to a broader range of things (ie: storm magic, shadow, siphoning) is the opposite of specialization, it's generalization. The problem is that anyone who uses stealth is more than likely to be using the same stealth related skills. Therefore, it's pretty much impossible to specialize in stealth.
The solution is easy: just add more skills. There are many different ways one could specialize in stealth. Add passives to increase effective stealth range, ability to stay hidden in daylight or at night, the effect of armor on stealthing, damage from stealth, etc. All with multiple ranks. Then add active skills that give you a chance to regain stealth while in combat under certain conditions, or what have you. Now there is enough depth to be able to specialize in stealth, and much more variety among those who choose to. Same thing can be done for any of the other trees. They're just too small right now.
Someone else who chose to dual wield, stealth, assassin would be incredibly similar, yes. Stealth based assassins would have similar play styles because again, stealth based assassin? Not seeing the problem
I just outlined it above. If there were sufficient depth to stealth then people could specialize in it while still being different. Some might choose to focus entirely on damage from stealth, while others might focus on being very hard to detect, or whatever else. Also, that way any stealth based, dual wielding assassin wouldn't be forced to go into all these other skill lines because they still have like 80 skill points left over.
The analogy...still works? Another dual wield stealth assassin may put points into Siphon. Or spend points on crafting. Or Shadow. Or be a Vampire. Specialization.
That isn't specialization. See my comments above. That is just applying stealth to other things. None of those things are specifically stealth related.
Maybe you don't have a secondary weapon. But someone else goes Bow.
Well that would be silly. I imagine not having a secondary weapon would be a temporary thing. That really wouldn't be a distinguising feature.
Really narrow skill lines is pretty much the definition of specialization.
Yes, exactly. Yet you've suggested branching into several other skill lines combined with stealth as specialization. It's the opposite.
Originally posted by arieste
Well, here is an experiment for us. I just built a level 10 stealthy dual wield character - i restricted myself to NB skills that would ONLY be useful to stealth-based damage dealer. I did take the AE stun ultimate, because i thought it might come in useful, but you can just replace that with any other ultimate if you want to be REALLY strict.
This build uses 21 points (at level 10 i had 17 in-game, but i figure if i knew the game better i'd probably have 21).
Take a look, is it totally identical to yours? Or is there some difference? I've no idea which skills YOU picked, I just picked what i liked. I purposely didn't grab some of the "hidden" beneficial skills like guild and other weapons, just stuck to what makes sense for a stealthy assassin type.
There are some differences, but it's probably about 75% similar to what I was using. Not to mention, that's level 10. Considering that people are estimating there are over 200 skill points available over the course of the game, by the end we will share many of the same skills, and likely all that are stealth related if that's what we're interested in.
There are some differences, but it's probably about 75% similar to what I was using. Not to mention, that's level 10. Considering that people are estimating there are over 200 skill points available over the course of the game, by the end we will share many of the same skills, and likely all that are stealth related if that's what we're interested in.
Well, I'll probably max out every nightblade skill just for the sake of trying different things and having different situational layouts.
But i seriously doubt that everyone will have the exact 6 active skills on all them. Were my 6 actives the same as yours? (And that's at level 10 when very few active choices are available).
I mean, given that you LOVE your DW and want narrow focus, you'll probably go double-DW and use 12 abilities related strictly to DW and Stealth. Me, I will use DW + Bow - also for single-target stealth dps, but with a range option and some knockbacks. I also plan to have Resto staff maxed out so i can switch to a healer build when needed for group stuff.
There are quite a few options. Are you going to go Vampire for the extra stealth stuff? That's a pretty big difference-maker.
Yes, 300 skillpoints give you more than enough to max out everything. But you can't use EVERYTHING, you can only use 2 sets of 6 skills and i think there'll be quite a bit of difference in people's loadouts. Well, i hope there will anyhow.
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There are some differences, but it's probably about 75% similar to what I was using. Not to mention, that's level 10. Considering that people are estimating there are over 200 skill points available over the course of the game, by the end we will share many of the same skills, and likely all that are stealth related if that's what we're interested in.
Well, I'll probably max out every nightblade skill just for the sake of trying different things and having different situational layouts.
But i seriously doubt that everyone will have the exact 6 active skills on all them. Were my 6 actives the same as yours? (And that's at level 10 when very few active choices are available).
I mean, given that you LOVE your DW and want narrow focus, you'll probably go double-DW and use 12 abilities related strictly to DW and Stealth. Me, I will use DW + Bow - also for single-target stealth dps, but with a range option and some knockbacks. I also plan to have Resto staff maxed out so i can switch to a healer build when needed for group stuff.
There are quite a few options. Are you going to go Vampire for the extra stealth stuff? That's a pretty big difference-maker.
Yes, 300 skillpoints give you more than enough to max out everything. But you can't use EVERYTHING, you can only use 2 sets of 6 skills and i think there'll be quite a bit of difference in people's loadouts. Well, i hope there will anyhow.
It is more answer to _redruM_ thanarieste.
I do believe that notion about best skill on-screen sets for the fight is kind of atavism of sort.
I may be wrong, but I think this game is trying to suggest to use different skill set for different fights.
Game suggests to change some of your favorite skills to those which your opponent will be more sensitive to. And do that not during the fight (which would be called TAKTICS), but before the fight (which would be called STRATEGY). In PVE it would mean knowing weak sides of the mob. In PVP, it is even more interesting. You need to understand, that those 6 skills are not only limiting you, but it is also limit for your opponent. You can play on predictability of your opponent in building his preferable set of on-screen skills. So you can always think out something to oppose that set of skills, if you smart enough. And your opponent will not be able to accommodate this change during the fight. It might be reasonable also to make different skill sets for fighting different classes.
Of course, if you want just to “set it and forget it”, well then there will always be some one more creative and more prepared than you.
Quests. Some are better than average, but many are still standard MMO fare kill x of y sort of deals. Aside from the quality, I feel there is just too much emphasis on quests. Much like other MMOs, I feel that I level and progress much more slowly if I'm not doing every quest I find. This is especially harmful in an environment like Elder Scrolls, where going wherever and doing whatever is strongly encouraged. I still felt pretty pidgeon-holed into quests, and I hope they will increase relative rewards of other activities, or decrease rewards of quests, or some combination of the two.
You can do random open world (group) dungeons and get really nice items from boss drops. There are open world elite bosses that drop nice stuff. There are treasure maps that reward exploration with nice loot. There are Dark Anchors (think Rifts from Rift) that are group oriented and let you get nice gear after completing a staged event. Random exploration almost always leads you to either a one of the above aspects, or it leads to a quest you wouldn't have otherwise found.There is also crafting, which is exceptional well done. There are also achievements for almost everything if that's your thing. I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out exactly what more you want. This game arguably rewards exploration more than any other MMO in the genre.
Skills. Much has been made of the many different skill lines and build combinations, but I actually find them somewhat lacking. Character progression is one of the most important things to me, and I often found myself storing 5 or more skill points at a time, because no new skills of interest had become available to me. I like to make true specialist characters, and all I wanted to do was invest in the Assassination skill line, but I was pretty much forced to go into other skill lines I wasn't really interested in. I feel like either there needs to be a lot more available skills/morphs, less abundant skill points, or both.
Skill lines open up more the deeper you get into the game. Not really sure why you think you'd need to stay within a single skill line to specialize. A specialization would be more along the lines of Melee DPS, which you can pick from several skill trees to fill out. Having said that, soft caps and the way the game limits the utilization of skills via resources (instead of cooldowns) makes heavy specialization a more difficult task in this game. It really leans more to hybridizatoin and role swapping (whether it be from support to DPS, range to melee, or PvE to PvP)
Crafting. Crafting is another thing that is pretty important to me in an MMO. Overall, I felt the crafting was better than average. However, I think it needs a few changes. First of all, I strongly dislike the fact that any character can max all crafting professions. It makes all characters homogenous toward the end game, and encourages a more solo playstyle. I feel that an MMO is meant to be played with others, and that crafting in particular really shines when it requires teamwork of others. I'd like to see more limitations to crafting professions, and more ability to specialize. In addition, I feel there is just too little variety. Yes, there are something like 8 traits available, but I find them pretty underwhelming. It seems like certain traits will be the obvious choice for certain gameplay. I'd like to see more item mods, more varied traits, and likewise for enchantments. I'd also really like to see poisons for Alchemy. I was pretty disappointed by their absence as I often play a poison specialized character in Elder Scrolls games.
The lack of a global AH will scale down the availability of services, which makes it important that individuals are a little more self sufficient. So it's less of an issue that you it otherwise would be... but I can see where you are coming from.
Phasing and instancing. I recognize their uses, but I think they should be used very sparingly. Since the old days of MMOs, I really prefer public dungeons to any type of instancing. It makes the world more immersive, provides more dynamic opportunities for grouping, and also opens the door for mixing pve and pvp together. I can understand for very specific story elements when you don't want to spoil things for other players around, but I dislike the fact that I can be in the same town as another player, and we see two completely different things. I feel like that's a little excessive as far as phasing and instancing go.
There are public dungeons, and there are dungeons that utilize phasing. Phasing has good and bad sides. I prefer the functionality and depth that phasing adds to the storyline. It can be irritating at times, but ultimately the good outweighs the bad IMO.
Skills. Much has been made of the many different skill lines and build combinations, but I actually find them somewhat lacking. Character progression is one of the most important things to me, and I often found myself storing 5 or more skill points at a time, because no new skills of interest had become available to me. I like to make true specialist characters, and all I wanted to do was invest in the Assassination skill line, but I was pretty much forced to go into other skill lines I wasn't really interested in. I feel like either there needs to be a lot more available skills/morphs, less abundant skill points, or both.
I just want to mention that you can respec your skill- and attributepoints. In the early game you can try other skills and one you have enough points in assasination you can respec and choose all skills. But most likly you will be able to do that anyways without respeccing.
And for making a very speciallized build with only a handful of stats will really nerf your build. Read more about softcaps!
Can any Neurosurgeon say they know all there is to know about being a Neurosurgeon? How long would that take? The problem is that the "Neurosurgeon" skill tree is so small that after spending just a few points you're forced to take skills from the "Orthodontist" and "Pediatrician" skill lines, among others. The result is that there are no Neurosurgeons. As I said, there is an inability to specialize.
First: ESO is a fantasy pseudo-medieval setting; specialization has not yet gone anywhere near as deep as modern neurosurgery. In fact, the drive towards specialization is arguably something of an anachronism in fantasy settings - in our own history, it wasn't until around the Industrial era that we really started to value the idea. Prior to that, it was the polymaths - experts in multiple fields - that we lauded. And much of that is because there just wasn't *that* much known about any given field yet, so being a pure specialist wasn't much of an accomplishment yet.
Second: most neurosurgeons do have the same general practice skills as the orthodontists and pediatricians in addition to their specialty (but not the same general skills as a rocket scientist.) So I would argue that it's at least possible that you're being so focused on neurosurgery that you've arbitrarily discarding valuable 'general practice' skills under the erroneous assumption that they belong to 'pediatricians' or something. And doing so at a stage in the game where you're still more of an intern than a neurosurgeon anyway...
(Second point, though, is just a possibility; not a certainty or a criticism.)
What do you mean by the "same character"? A stealth based, single target damage dealer? I would expect there to still by variety, even at that specific level. Even among Neurosurgeons, some may specialize in specific operations over others. But in the game, there is not just little variety among Neurosurgeons, but little variety among Doctors as a whole, because they're all forced to share many of the same medical fields.
Welcome to the dark ages, please keep your industrial-era assumptions stowed in the overhead compartments.
Originally posted by arieste But i seriously doubt that everyone will have the exact 6 active skills on all them. Were my 6 actives the same as yours? (And that's at level 10 when very few active choices are available).
They were at least 50% in common. But what's on the skill bar is not as significant to me, since that can be changed whenever. I guess I just like to have more permanence to my character. I like to pick something and commit to that, and the game seems like it wants me to pick a little (or a lot) of everything. Another part of the reason I feel that I can't really specialize.
I mean, given that you LOVE your DW and want narrow focus, you'll probably go double-DW and use 12 abilities related strictly to DW and Stealth.
12 abilities out of 300ish points? It just seems like a gigantic waste. It's inevitable that we're going to share many of the same skills, even if we wish to play completely differently. It just reminds me of Diablo 3 where everyone was limited to a small hotbar that was all drawn from the same pool of skills. That didn't work out so well, as there ended up being little depth or diversity to the system.
There are quite a few options. Are you going to go Vampire for the extra stealth stuff? That's a pretty big difference-maker.
I never saw the vampire tree. Is there a significant amount of stealth related skills?
Yes, 300 skillpoints give you more than enough to max out everything. But you can't use EVERYTHING, you can only use 2 sets of 6 skills and i think there'll be quite a bit of difference in people's loadouts. Well, i hope there will anyhow.
I hope there will, too. I'm just a little doubtful at this point.
Originally posted by kkarrabbass
It is more answer to _redruM_ thanarieste.
I do believe that notion about best skill on-screen sets for the fight is kind of atavism of sort.
I may be wrong, but I think this game is trying to suggest to use different skill set for different fights.
Game suggests to change some of your favorite skills to those which your opponent will be more sensitive to. And do that not during the fight (which would be called TAKTICS), but before the fight (which would be called STRATEGY). In PVE it would mean knowing weak sides of the mob. In PVP, it is even more interesting. You need to understand, that those 6 skills are not only limiting you, but it is also limit for your opponent. You can play on predictability of your opponent in building his preferable set of on-screen skills. So you can always think out something to oppose that set of skills, if you smart enough. And your opponent will not be able to accommodate this change during the fight. It might be reasonable also to make different skill sets for fighting different classes.
I do appreciate the strategy of it, but what you say reinforces my feeling that the game encourages you to generalize. Which does make everyone more similar. I like going into a fight knowing that I will be very effective against certain character builds, while vulnerable to others. This forces me to put even more thought into picking my targets wisely and getting out of danger quickly. When everyone is a generalist it just homogenizes every encounter to be more similar.
Of course, if you want just to “set it and forget it”, well then there will always be some one more creative and more prepared than you.
I feel more creative when building a character to perform a specific function exceptionally well, rather than a character that does everything alright. You could be picking skills at random and accomplishing that, but that's just me.
Originally posted by Draemo
You can do random open world (group) dungeons and get really nice items from boss drops. There are open world elite bosses that drop nice stuff. There are treasure maps that reward exploration with nice loot. There are Dark Anchors (think Rifts from Rift) that are group oriented and let you get nice gear after completing a staged event. Random exploration almost always leads you to either a one of the above aspects, or it leads to a quest you wouldn't have otherwise found.There is also crafting, which is exceptional well done. There are also achievements for almost everything if that's your thing. I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out exactly what more you want. This game arguably rewards exploration more than any other MMO in the genre.
Did you spend much time actually trying those other things? As I described earlier, I can recall wandering around just hunting mobs (mostly above my level) for close to an hour without a single skill increase. Meanwhile, I can run a quest in about 5 minutes and immediately upon turning it in my Dual Wield and Assassination skills will increase, even if I had barely used them at all during the quest.
Sadly, the exploration just seems like a distraction while taking a break from quest grinding, or a means of finding more quests. Which seems to oppose the whole Elder Scrolls ideal.
Skill lines open up more the deeper you get into the game. Not really sure why you think you'd need to stay within a single skill line to specialize. A specialization would be more along the lines of Melee DPS, which you can pick from several skill trees to fill out.
Melee DPS is more broad than, say, stealth based Dual Wield melee DPS, or Heavy Armor focused Two Handed sword melee DPS. Erego, it is more a generalization than a specialization. In it's current state, the game clearly favors this.
Having said that, soft caps and the way the game limits the utilization of skills via resources (instead of cooldowns) makes heavy specialization a more difficult task in this game. It really leans more to hybridizatoin and role swapping (whether it be from support to DPS, range to melee, or PvE to PvP)
Pretty much what I just said above.
Originally posted by GrimeyeD And for making a very speciallized build with only a handful of stats will really nerf your build. Read more about softcaps!
After reading about soft caps, things are worse than I thought. Not only are you encouraged to generalize in your skills, but your stats too. That's pretty disappointing. I'm really not sure why they would choose to go that route. It's just going to cause less diversity.
Originally posted by KaosProphet
First: ESO is a fantasy pseudo-medieval setting; specialization has not yet gone anywhere near as deep as modern neurosurgery. In fact, the drive towards specialization is arguably something of an anachronism in fantasy settings - in our own history, it wasn't until around the Industrial era that we really started to value the idea. Prior to that, it was the polymaths - experts in multiple fields - that we lauded. And much of that is because there just wasn't *that* much known about any given field yet, so being a pure specialist wasn't much of an accomplishment yet.
That's an interesting take on it, but I'm not sure that's what they had in mind when they designed it this way.
Second: most neurosurgeons do have the same general practice skills as the orthodontists and pediatricians in addition to their specialty (but not the same general skills as a rocket scientist.) So I would argue that it's at least possible that you're being so focused on neurosurgery that you've arbitrarily discarding valuable 'general practice' skills under the erroneous assumption that they belong to 'pediatricians' or something. And doing so at a stage in the game where you're still more of an intern than a neurosurgeon anyway...
(Second point, though, is just a possibility; not a certainty or a criticism.
It was a bit of a bad example. I should have used other specialized surgical practices, or other areas of science.
First: ESO is a fantasy pseudo-medieval setting; specialization has not yet gone anywhere near as deep as modern neurosurgery. In fact, the drive towards specialization is arguably something of an anachronism in fantasy settings - in our own history, it wasn't until around the Industrial era that we really started to value the idea. Prior to that, it was the polymaths - experts in multiple fields - that we lauded. And much of that is because there just wasn't *that* much known about any given field yet, so being a pure specialist wasn't much of an accomplishment yet.
That's an interesting take on it, but I'm not sure that's what they had in mind when they designed it this way.
Agreed, it probably wasn't intentional. But for me at least, it works - perhaps because I am as attached to the notion of the polymath as you are to the specialist.
Should also note, I'm not trying to argue against your preference for specialization here. Just because I have different preferences, does not mean I believe you are wrong in yours.
It was a bit of a bad example. I should have used other specialized surgical practices, or other areas of science.
I can't really think of any specialists that don't share at least *some* common general skills with the specialists in other related fields, so it likely wouldn't have mattered on my end.
I can see an alternate rebuttal to my point, though: the skills available in ESO may not map out to that analogy very well. It might be easier to run out of skills that can be legitimately argued as "general" rather than "belongs to other specialty entirely" than I'm willing to admit.
Still, *if* you can look at them that way, it might help make the system more palatable. If not... well, then it doesn't.
I feel more creative when building a character to perform a specific function exceptionally well, rather than a character that does everything alright.
This still very much needs to be done. The difference with games that have open/unlimited skill point systems where you can have "all the skills or almost all the skills" is that instead of specializing your character, you're specializing a build. And at any given time, you're only using one build, so when it comes to roaming the world, etc. - you can (and probably should) be very specialized.
For example, the 300 skill points allow you to max Dual Wielding + Assassination + Stealth + Medium Armor + Restoration + Light Armor + Healing + whatever.
BUT, when you're out in the world, even though you have these 30 different skills and 30 different passives. You'll still have to CHOOSE - which armor am i wearing? The assassin one or the magic regen one? Which weapon am i using DW or Restoration Staff? Which abilities do i have slotted - for killing or for healing?
The specialization is there, it just rests with the loadout more than with the overall character. Think of a game like EVE, where you can have literally every single skill in the game. You may be able to fly 40 different ship types, but you're only ever flying ONE ship at a time and that ship has some sort of specialized purpose.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
4. It is extremely unlikely that anything about instancing will change (other than fixing the people in your party being invisible due to phasing). It is simply the direction they decided to go with, which is becoming very common for MMOs.
Thats actually the drawback of using Mega Server technology. Yes it allows you to have nearly limitless amount of people on the same datacenter but at the same time you have to use instancing, zoning and phasing to mitigate the crowd.
This wont be solved unless we get fantasy based games running on eve level servers and not just server clusters. And even then the technology is the real limit for now.
Its still better than 1001 separate servers, but at the same time its the reason why we dont see seamless mmos (like wow) and instead we get this.
i think you'd find that the instancing is primarily for the ports to console, as they need it, it's not really a megaserver issue... TSW had massive zones on a megaserver with little to none instancing except the occasional "story quest".. the technology is solid and can support many many people without the need for so many load screens and instancing, console users however are subject to more of a drawback when it comes to things like that
Quests. Some are better than average, but many are still standard MMO fare kill x of y sort of deals. Aside from the quality, I feel there is just too much emphasis on quests. Much like other MMOs, I feel that I level and progress much more slowly if I'm not doing every quest I find. This is especially harmful in an environment like Elder Scrolls, where going wherever and doing whatever is strongly encouraged. I still felt pretty pidgeon-holed into quests, and I hope they will increase relative rewards of other activities, or decrease rewards of quests, or some combination of the two.
Skills. Much has been made of the many different skill lines and build combinations, but I actually find them somewhat lacking. Character progression is one of the most important things to me, and I often found myself storing 5 or more skill points at a time, because no new skills of interest had become available to me. I like to make true specialist characters, and all I wanted to do was invest in the Assassination skill line, but I was pretty much forced to go into other skill lines I wasn't really interested in. I feel like either there needs to be a lot more available skills/morphs, less abundant skill points, or both.
Crafting. Crafting is another thing that is pretty important to me in an MMO. Overall, I felt the crafting was better than average. However, I think it needs a few changes. First of all, I strongly dislike the fact that any character can max all crafting professions. It makes all characters homogenous toward the end game, and encourages a more solo playstyle. I feel that an MMO is meant to be played with others, and that crafting in particular really shines when it requires teamwork of others. I'd like to see more limitations to crafting professions, and more ability to specialize. In addition, I feel there is just too little variety. Yes, there are something like 8 traits available, but I find them pretty underwhelming. It seems like certain traits will be the obvious choice for certain gameplay. I'd like to see more item mods, more varied traits, and likewise for enchantments. I'd also really like to see poisons for Alchemy. I was pretty disappointed by their absence as I often play a poison specialized character in Elder Scrolls games.
Phasing and instancing. I recognize their uses, but I think they should be used very sparingly. Since the old days of MMOs, I really prefer public dungeons to any type of instancing. It makes the world more immersive, provides more dynamic opportunities for grouping, and also opens the door for mixing pve and pvp together. I can understand for very specific story elements when you don't want to spoil things for other players around, but I dislike the fact that I can be in the same town as another player, and we see two completely different things. I feel like that's a little excessive as far as phasing and instancing go.
**snip**
Thoughts? Agree/disagree?
1) Quests: They're certainly a big part of the game (it is a themepark design after-all), but they are hardly the 'only' way of lvling. They are certaintly more fun than grinding mobs, but u can absolutely do that if u want to lvl quickly. And grinding Dark Anchors (at least currently) is a really good way to lvl up fast/ get some good loot. If anything, neglecting certain quests will have you miss out on some loot, and a few skillpoints. But the exp loss isn't as significant as you might think.
2) Skills: You seem to be pigeon-holing yourself on this one. There are A LOT of skills available. And being 'specialized' in this game, doesn't mean you need to stick to 1 skill category. Similar to GW/GW2, you need to focus on what role you want to specialize into, instead of what skill line. For example, if you want to assassinate people, look into dual-wielding and bow skills. Pick up some siphoning for offensive support (cripple and agony are amazing for this). By combining multiple skill lines you are able to achieve a more specialized role, rather than trying to stick to one category because it's there. The only real thing u need to keep in mind, is that you want to balance stamina & magicka skills in this game. There is a cap on your regen for both, and when you're spamming skills, u will empty either insanely fast even w/ max regen. By juggling between the two you can consistantly fight w/ out many issues.
3) Crafting: I'm not sure how much crafting you were able to accomplish, but it didn't sound like you did much. There is A LOT of features to the crafting system. Enchanting alone has somewhere in the ballpark of ~100 or so modifiers, all achieved through discovered combinations of randomly obtained runes (you need 3 different ones). This can be combined with armor & weapons, which also have their own sets of attributes (enhancements) which u need to find first, before you can research to use them. Then you also have to find schematics out in the world to craft the different styles. And there's also uprading to increase the quality.
Furthermore, the traits to max the crafting professions will take a while. They are all useful, but yes, some you will want to get sooner, rather than later.
4) Phasing & Instancing: The game has both, and it does have public dungeons (dunno if u actually got to try any of them). So far, they aren't as elaborate as old school dungeons, though. However, compare the graphics & mechanics of a game like ESO, to an oldschool game (like EQ, or w/e). The game is insanely more advanced than what was being done back then. It may not 'feel' like it to you, but the megaserver tech isn't something you'd find back in the '90s. When you have as many people playing these games as you do now, you NEED to do some kind of phasing or instancing. There's just way too much data going around to just leave unmanaged.
******* All in all, I get the sense that you are an oldschool gamer at heart. One that hasn't fully accepted newer games yet. If I'm right, I'm not sure ESO is the game for you. These newer kinds of MMOs really need to be played with a more open mind. You need to approach it like a new game. Instead of constantly focusing on old features you want in a dream game that may not ever happen.
I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's going to be nearly impossible to truly find a game for you, unless you're willing to approach these newer games with an open mind. Approach it with the wonder of 'what will this game offer', instead of like a checklist of 'these are all the features I want in the game, lets see how many I can check off'. That way always leads to dissapointment, because you're always focusing on what a game doesn't have, instead of trying to figure out what it does.
4. It is extremely unlikely that anything about instancing will change (other than fixing the people in your party being invisible due to phasing). It is simply the direction they decided to go with, which is becoming very common for MMOs.
Thats actually the drawback of using Mega Server technology. Yes it allows you to have nearly limitless amount of people on the same datacenter but at the same time you have to use instancing, zoning and phasing to mitigate the crowd.
This wont be solved unless we get fantasy based games running on eve level servers and not just server clusters. And even then the technology is the real limit for now.
Its still better than 1001 separate servers, but at the same time its the reason why we dont see seamless mmos (like wow) and instead we get this.
i think you'd find that the instancing is primarily for the ports to console, as they need it, it's not really a megaserver issue... TSW had massive zones on a megaserver with little to none instancing except the occasional "story quest".. the technology is solid and can support many many people without the need for so many load screens and instancing, console users however are subject to more of a drawback when it comes to things like that
TSW didn't use megaserver tech. They had multiple different servers people ad to choose between.
They also had quite a lot of instancing. Dungeons were instanced. PvP was instanced. Story quests were instanced (which were a large part of the game). Furthermore, most of the zones were instanced (at least for the first few months of launch).
It all comes down to tech limitations, vs. what gamers expect from a game. Until some massive breakthrough comes in the form of networking speeds, data-storage, and data transfer; we are stuck having to compromise with every game. You can't have these super epic, visually stunning games, with flashy partical effects, and fancy combat mechanics (and collision detection); without having to do a massive amount of data management. This is where things like phasing & instancing are necessary. No single computer can handle all that data from millions of players all at once. It has to be split up.
Phasin is immersion breaking? You know what's REALLY immersion breaking? Being given a quest to kill captain sparta only to find a group of other players standing around where he is suppose to be waiting for him to 're-appear" back into the world. If anything phasing makes questing much more realistic and less time consuming.
Comments
I kid you not. I was trying to build a stealth based single target damage dealer. I saw 3? passive stealth skills, 1 of which I already had and the rest were not until a few more levels. I already had my 3 main attacks, and since there is no cooldown why would I get more skills that do less damage at higher cost? All I really needed in terms of active skills were either a stun or a debuff, and I already had a short stun. There were no passives available to me to boost any of the skills I would have liked. The only skill available to me in Dual Wield was a low damage aoe attack that I wasn't very interested in. Sure, I could have invested in armor more, but as I already said I don't want a well-rounded character, I want a specialist.
I would have invested in poisons as well, had they been available.
It's not about having more skills on your bar so much as it is about differentiating your character from others. With the amount of skills we have now, I can be pretty certain that any other character who uses Dual Wield will be using a nearly identical skill-set, especially if they chose to focus on it. There are only 5? active skills, and most passives are no-brainers. That really isn't much diversity, and your character is certainly not unique.
At least in Rift, you can spend nearly your entire pool of skill points in a single soul's tree, if you wish to. That creates significantly more variety among archetypes.
As I pointed out, I was already having trouble finding any more passives to suit my goals.
Agreed. I am glad that they are at least putting in some effort in regards to the story and dialogue, but I do wish the quests required more thought. Getting rid of those quest markers would be a good start.
It can easily get better. Recycling the same quest design in every town is putting the bar pretty low.
"Enough" quests? As far as I'm concerned, the occasional larger-scale, well written and designed quest would be plenty enough for me. Far preferable to dozens of tedious, repetitive, insignificant quests. But as I said, my main problem with the quests is that they're so essential to leveling.
Agreed. Well said.Seriously? Most of the quests in Skyrim were of average MMO quality, at best. Lore has always been a strong suit of Elder Scrolls games, but the actual story you participate in has been getting weaker and weaker. What I have seen of ESO so far appears to have substantially higher average quality (narratively speaking) in it's quests than either Skyrim or Oblivion.
Comparing to other MMOs rather than other ES games, the only ones that even belong in the same conversation as ESO in terms of narrative quality/emphasis are TSW and TOR.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
You feel what you feel.Frankly the tone of your writing sounds a bit negative on the game...and burnt out.My advice..... let it go....and see what happens.
Because the other guy does not want to use lightning bolt, he wants to use frostbolt. And the third guy would love a fireball lot more than either of the previous choises. The more options the better.
Why add more skills to the current lines? Why not just add more skill lines that you can earn access to, with the same number of skills as the current lines? Lots of options for your 10+2 slots are good, will mean that many more character builds out there.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
A couple of things I don't understand OP. You wanted a stealth dual wield character, but didn't want to spend point in Medium armor "reduces stealth detection radius" passive?
Is there a reason why you just didn't spend any point?s Nothing in the game, as far as I know, forces you to spend points in abilities you don't want.
And lastly, is there a reason why specialized builds focusing on the exact same thing wouldn't be very similar? If I decide I want to be a doctor, there are many choices and each one is distinct from the next. The same way a dual wielding healer will have different choices from a dual wielding tank. But if I want to be a neurosurgeon, if I don't have the skills another neurosurgeon does then I'm lacking.
I hope my analogy was sufficient. I don't see why you would expect another player who decided to make the same character you are making have a completely different build.
Well I can hardly be burnt out since I only played to about level 12. My writing probably sounds negative because it's a thread about my concerns. If it were a thread about my favorite things it might sound a bit different.
Precisely.
I'd be fine with either option, as long as there are more skills available to complement builds.
Pretty sure I did. Like I said, I picked up the only stealth related passive that was available to me. There was only like 2 more I had to look forward to, and none were available to spend my 5 stored skill points on.
I didn't spend the points. Like I said, I had at least 5 stored up, but they're even more useless being unspent than if they were spent on something I didn't want. By the time the skills I wanted became available to me, my pool of unspent skill points would be much larger.
Can any Neurosurgeon say they know all there is to know about being a Neurosurgeon? How long would that take? The problem is that the "Neurosurgeon" skill tree is so small that after spending just a few points you're forced to take skills from the "Orthodontist" and "Pediatrician" skill lines, among others. The result is that there are no Neurosurgeons. As I said, there is an inability to specialize.
What do you mean by the "same character"? A stealth based, single target damage dealer? I would expect there to still by variety, even at that specific level. Even among Neurosurgeons, some may specialize in specific operations over others. But in the game, there is not just little variety among Neurosurgeons, but little variety among Doctors as a whole, because they're all forced to share many of the same medical fields.
That's a whole lot of analogys, but I think it's fairly intuitive to understand.
By same character, I mean your dual wield, stealth, assassin.
Stealth based characters have a wide range, using all the classes and weapons. About the only common point they would have is medium armor. I can run a stealth Two hander as it does come with an execute in its ability line, go Sorc and Storm magic for another one. And would play different. Plenty of room for specialization there.
Someone else who chose to dual wield, stealth, assassin would be incredibly similar, yes. Stealth based assassins would have similar play styles because again, stealth based assassin? Not seeing the problem
You mentioned being "forced" to put points into things you had no interest in. That's why I asked.
The analogy...still works? Another dual wield stealth assassin may put points into Siphon. Or spend points on crafting. Or Shadow. Or be a Vampire. Specialization. One dual wield stealth assassin sustains in fights better, maybe because he's an Imperial with lifesteal abilities. Or maybe they want to be all up front burst and go Khajiit or something.
Maybe you don't have a secondary weapon. But someone else goes Bow.
I'm not sure where you got the idea there is no room for it. Not having exactly what you want != no specialization. Really narrow skill lines is pretty much the definition of specialization.
Well, here is an experiment for us. I just built a level 10 stealthy dual wield character - i restricted myself to NB skills that would ONLY be useful to stealth-based damage dealer. I did take the AE stun ultimate, because i thought it might come in useful, but you can just replace that with any other ultimate if you want to be REALLY strict.
This build uses 21 points (at level 10 i had 17 in-game, but i figure if i knew the game better i'd probably have 21).
Take a look, is it totally identical to yours? Or is there some difference? I've no idea which skills YOU picked, I just picked what i liked. I purposely didn't grab some of the "hidden" beneficial skills like guild and other weapons, just stuck to what makes sense for a stealthy assassin type.
http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#zcsabnt8qsm8a3s8kQ28qcT8qRC8p7oMdBvj6cdBET8t7mbsgW8C7mLzqa6Lzqq8D7RMzdM6qzdm6MIrEf8F7bNzrO8zz7actyrG
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Looks like you may be right.
That's because there are so few skills that are directly related to stealth. That isn't variety among stealth itself.
Taking something specific (ie: stealth) and applying it to a broader range of things (ie: storm magic, shadow, siphoning) is the opposite of specialization, it's generalization. The problem is that anyone who uses stealth is more than likely to be using the same stealth related skills. Therefore, it's pretty much impossible to specialize in stealth.
The solution is easy: just add more skills. There are many different ways one could specialize in stealth. Add passives to increase effective stealth range, ability to stay hidden in daylight or at night, the effect of armor on stealthing, damage from stealth, etc. All with multiple ranks. Then add active skills that give you a chance to regain stealth while in combat under certain conditions, or what have you. Now there is enough depth to be able to specialize in stealth, and much more variety among those who choose to. Same thing can be done for any of the other trees. They're just too small right now.
I just outlined it above. If there were sufficient depth to stealth then people could specialize in it while still being different. Some might choose to focus entirely on damage from stealth, while others might focus on being very hard to detect, or whatever else. Also, that way any stealth based, dual wielding assassin wouldn't be forced to go into all these other skill lines because they still have like 80 skill points left over.
That isn't specialization. See my comments above. That is just applying stealth to other things. None of those things are specifically stealth related.
Well that would be silly. I imagine not having a secondary weapon would be a temporary thing. That really wouldn't be a distinguising feature.
Yes, exactly. Yet you've suggested branching into several other skill lines combined with stealth as specialization. It's the opposite.
There are some differences, but it's probably about 75% similar to what I was using. Not to mention, that's level 10. Considering that people are estimating there are over 200 skill points available over the course of the game, by the end we will share many of the same skills, and likely all that are stealth related if that's what we're interested in.Well, I'll probably max out every nightblade skill just for the sake of trying different things and having different situational layouts.
But i seriously doubt that everyone will have the exact 6 active skills on all them. Were my 6 actives the same as yours? (And that's at level 10 when very few active choices are available).
I mean, given that you LOVE your DW and want narrow focus, you'll probably go double-DW and use 12 abilities related strictly to DW and Stealth. Me, I will use DW + Bow - also for single-target stealth dps, but with a range option and some knockbacks. I also plan to have Resto staff maxed out so i can switch to a healer build when needed for group stuff.
There are quite a few options. Are you going to go Vampire for the extra stealth stuff? That's a pretty big difference-maker.
Yes, 300 skillpoints give you more than enough to max out everything. But you can't use EVERYTHING, you can only use 2 sets of 6 skills and i think there'll be quite a bit of difference in people's loadouts. Well, i hope there will anyhow.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
It is more answer to _redruM_ than arieste.
I do believe that notion about best skill on-screen sets for the fight is kind of atavism of sort.
I may be wrong, but I think this game is trying to suggest to use different skill set for different fights.
Game suggests to change some of your favorite skills to those which your opponent will be more sensitive to. And do that not during the fight (which would be called TAKTICS), but before the fight (which would be called STRATEGY). In PVE it would mean knowing weak sides of the mob. In PVP, it is even more interesting. You need to understand, that those 6 skills are not only limiting you, but it is also limit for your opponent. You can play on predictability of your opponent in building his preferable set of on-screen skills. So you can always think out something to oppose that set of skills, if you smart enough. And your opponent will not be able to accommodate this change during the fight. It might be reasonable also to make different skill sets for fighting different classes.
Of course, if you want just to “set it and forget it”, well then there will always be some one more creative and more prepared than you.
I just want to mention that you can respec your skill- and attributepoints. In the early game you can try other skills and one you have enough points in assasination you can respec and choose all skills. But most likly you will be able to do that anyways without respeccing.
And for making a very speciallized build with only a handful of stats will really nerf your build. Read more about softcaps!
First: ESO is a fantasy pseudo-medieval setting; specialization has not yet gone anywhere near as deep as modern neurosurgery. In fact, the drive towards specialization is arguably something of an anachronism in fantasy settings - in our own history, it wasn't until around the Industrial era that we really started to value the idea. Prior to that, it was the polymaths - experts in multiple fields - that we lauded. And much of that is because there just wasn't *that* much known about any given field yet, so being a pure specialist wasn't much of an accomplishment yet.
Second: most neurosurgeons do have the same general practice skills as the orthodontists and pediatricians in addition to their specialty (but not the same general skills as a rocket scientist.) So I would argue that it's at least possible that you're being so focused on neurosurgery that you've arbitrarily discarding valuable 'general practice' skills under the erroneous assumption that they belong to 'pediatricians' or something. And doing so at a stage in the game where you're still more of an intern than a neurosurgeon anyway...
(Second point, though, is just a possibility; not a certainty or a criticism.)Welcome to the dark ages, please keep your industrial-era assumptions stowed in the overhead compartments.
They were at least 50% in common. But what's on the skill bar is not as significant to me, since that can be changed whenever. I guess I just like to have more permanence to my character. I like to pick something and commit to that, and the game seems like it wants me to pick a little (or a lot) of everything. Another part of the reason I feel that I can't really specialize.
12 abilities out of 300ish points? It just seems like a gigantic waste. It's inevitable that we're going to share many of the same skills, even if we wish to play completely differently. It just reminds me of Diablo 3 where everyone was limited to a small hotbar that was all drawn from the same pool of skills. That didn't work out so well, as there ended up being little depth or diversity to the system.
I never saw the vampire tree. Is there a significant amount of stealth related skills?
I hope there will, too. I'm just a little doubtful at this point.
I do appreciate the strategy of it, but what you say reinforces my feeling that the game encourages you to generalize. Which does make everyone more similar. I like going into a fight knowing that I will be very effective against certain character builds, while vulnerable to others. This forces me to put even more thought into picking my targets wisely and getting out of danger quickly. When everyone is a generalist it just homogenizes every encounter to be more similar.
I feel more creative when building a character to perform a specific function exceptionally well, rather than a character that does everything alright. You could be picking skills at random and accomplishing that, but that's just me.
Melee DPS is more broad than, say, stealth based Dual Wield melee DPS, or Heavy Armor focused Two Handed sword melee DPS. Erego, it is more a generalization than a specialization. In it's current state, the game clearly favors this.
Pretty much what I just said above.
After reading about soft caps, things are worse than I thought. Not only are you encouraged to generalize in your skills, but your stats too. That's pretty disappointing. I'm really not sure why they would choose to go that route. It's just going to cause less diversity.
That's an interesting take on it, but I'm not sure that's what they had in mind when they designed it this way.
It was a bit of a bad example. I should have used other specialized surgical practices, or other areas of science.Agreed, it probably wasn't intentional. But for me at least, it works - perhaps because I am as attached to the notion of the polymath as you are to the specialist.
Should also note, I'm not trying to argue against your preference for specialization here. Just because I have different preferences, does not mean I believe you are wrong in yours.
I can't really think of any specialists that don't share at least *some* common general skills with the specialists in other related fields, so it likely wouldn't have mattered on my end.
I can see an alternate rebuttal to my point, though: the skills available in ESO may not map out to that analogy very well. It might be easier to run out of skills that can be legitimately argued as "general" rather than "belongs to other specialty entirely" than I'm willing to admit.
Still, *if* you can look at them that way, it might help make the system more palatable. If not... well, then it doesn't.
This still very much needs to be done. The difference with games that have open/unlimited skill point systems where you can have "all the skills or almost all the skills" is that instead of specializing your character, you're specializing a build. And at any given time, you're only using one build, so when it comes to roaming the world, etc. - you can (and probably should) be very specialized.
For example, the 300 skill points allow you to max Dual Wielding + Assassination + Stealth + Medium Armor + Restoration + Light Armor + Healing + whatever.
BUT, when you're out in the world, even though you have these 30 different skills and 30 different passives. You'll still have to CHOOSE - which armor am i wearing? The assassin one or the magic regen one? Which weapon am i using DW or Restoration Staff? Which abilities do i have slotted - for killing or for healing?
The specialization is there, it just rests with the loadout more than with the overall character. Think of a game like EVE, where you can have literally every single skill in the game. You may be able to fly 40 different ship types, but you're only ever flying ONE ship at a time and that ship has some sort of specialized purpose.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
i think you'd find that the instancing is primarily for the ports to console, as they need it, it's not really a megaserver issue... TSW had massive zones on a megaserver with little to none instancing except the occasional "story quest".. the technology is solid and can support many many people without the need for so many load screens and instancing, console users however are subject to more of a drawback when it comes to things like that
1) Quests: They're certainly a big part of the game (it is a themepark design after-all), but they are hardly the 'only' way of lvling. They are certaintly more fun than grinding mobs, but u can absolutely do that if u want to lvl quickly. And grinding Dark Anchors (at least currently) is a really good way to lvl up fast/ get some good loot. If anything, neglecting certain quests will have you miss out on some loot, and a few skillpoints. But the exp loss isn't as significant as you might think.
2) Skills: You seem to be pigeon-holing yourself on this one. There are A LOT of skills available. And being 'specialized' in this game, doesn't mean you need to stick to 1 skill category. Similar to GW/GW2, you need to focus on what role you want to specialize into, instead of what skill line. For example, if you want to assassinate people, look into dual-wielding and bow skills. Pick up some siphoning for offensive support (cripple and agony are amazing for this). By combining multiple skill lines you are able to achieve a more specialized role, rather than trying to stick to one category because it's there. The only real thing u need to keep in mind, is that you want to balance stamina & magicka skills in this game. There is a cap on your regen for both, and when you're spamming skills, u will empty either insanely fast even w/ max regen. By juggling between the two you can consistantly fight w/ out many issues.
3) Crafting: I'm not sure how much crafting you were able to accomplish, but it didn't sound like you did much. There is A LOT of features to the crafting system. Enchanting alone has somewhere in the ballpark of ~100 or so modifiers, all achieved through discovered combinations of randomly obtained runes (you need 3 different ones). This can be combined with armor & weapons, which also have their own sets of attributes (enhancements) which u need to find first, before you can research to use them. Then you also have to find schematics out in the world to craft the different styles. And there's also uprading to increase the quality.
Furthermore, the traits to max the crafting professions will take a while. They are all useful, but yes, some you will want to get sooner, rather than later.
4) Phasing & Instancing: The game has both, and it does have public dungeons (dunno if u actually got to try any of them). So far, they aren't as elaborate as old school dungeons, though. However, compare the graphics & mechanics of a game like ESO, to an oldschool game (like EQ, or w/e). The game is insanely more advanced than what was being done back then. It may not 'feel' like it to you, but the megaserver tech isn't something you'd find back in the '90s. When you have as many people playing these games as you do now, you NEED to do some kind of phasing or instancing. There's just way too much data going around to just leave unmanaged.
******* All in all, I get the sense that you are an oldschool gamer at heart. One that hasn't fully accepted newer games yet. If I'm right, I'm not sure ESO is the game for you. These newer kinds of MMOs really need to be played with a more open mind. You need to approach it like a new game. Instead of constantly focusing on old features you want in a dream game that may not ever happen.
I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's going to be nearly impossible to truly find a game for you, unless you're willing to approach these newer games with an open mind. Approach it with the wonder of 'what will this game offer', instead of like a checklist of 'these are all the features I want in the game, lets see how many I can check off'. That way always leads to dissapointment, because you're always focusing on what a game doesn't have, instead of trying to figure out what it does.
TSW didn't use megaserver tech. They had multiple different servers people ad to choose between.
They also had quite a lot of instancing. Dungeons were instanced. PvP was instanced. Story quests were instanced (which were a large part of the game). Furthermore, most of the zones were instanced (at least for the first few months of launch).
It all comes down to tech limitations, vs. what gamers expect from a game. Until some massive breakthrough comes in the form of networking speeds, data-storage, and data transfer; we are stuck having to compromise with every game. You can't have these super epic, visually stunning games, with flashy partical effects, and fancy combat mechanics (and collision detection); without having to do a massive amount of data management. This is where things like phasing & instancing are necessary. No single computer can handle all that data from millions of players all at once. It has to be split up.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft