Originally posted by GimiZigi I think permadeath is more than possible if it is done right.For example: 1 life to live is extreme and gives a very stinging feeling of permadeath but what about 100 deaths? With 100 deaths, permadeath is diluted and you can prepare for it too. It isn't like this surprise to you. It's expected.
Then it is not really "Perma-Death", is it? It is more along the lines of "kinda sorta somewhat similar to perma-death."What is the point of perma-death if you get 100 lives? How does that differ from any other death penalty in scope? Die 1-99 times and you're right back in the game. Die that 100th time, though... LOOK OUT!
Actually it is perma-death in the same vein as Super Mario Bros.That said I am more for face meet frying pan death penalties rather than a complete wipe if character progression is tweaked such that characters can be unique via a freeform/point system rather than a standard I R WARRIOR ! because if it is standard then just shift power progression from exponential to a minimum slope linear one and have at it.
LOL I was imagining 100 hearts across my screen when I wrote that...
Your point about the difference between a carefully crafted character and a cookie cutter character is a good distinction, too.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I played a sci-fi mmo that basically had permadeath. You had a stacking death penalty. Die 10 times and you lose 10% of your skill points. Die 80 times and you might as well reroll because your starting stats would be higher than what you end up with from the penalty . Then you had to decide... do I start a new character, transfer my holdings, then reestablish my character's reputation, or grind my skills back up with this guy who will lose them all again upon death.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Perma death = Another holy grail mythical creature (and an idiotic mechanic to put in an mmorpg GAME) dreamed up by jaded mmorpg geeks who need to leave the genre alone. No. Perma death is dumb, and anything other than dying and not being able to play EVER AGAIN isn't perma death.
Go camping dawg. Seriously.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Because we've all grown attached to our characters, we've forgotten how to truly enjoy games and truly be immersed in the games.
We no longer gain a sense of danger. There is no risk vs reward. There is no inbetween for our games. It's all about how you start and what the end-game is like. So you get to the end of the game - now what? Wait for the next expansion just to do it all over again? And then what? etc. etc.
The leaking faucet continues to leak and we all wonder why we get bored of our games.
We need to bring life back to our games and we can do that by introducing permadeath in more places.
If you look into Trials of Ascension - they do an incredible job making permadeath not just a great feature but a great balancing of the game and its players.
The only thing an enforced permadeath will accomplish is to make sure I will never buy that particular MMO.
If I wanted that feature I'd go play Diablo or POE on hardcore.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Great, if you design the game around it. You make it sound like you want a WoW type of game with permadeath, which nobody would play. Darkfall has permadeath, right? Why isn't that good enough?
people's willingness to takes risks directly relates to the consequences of failure, in real life, or in games. In real life, if we enacted a law that stated that anyone who created a business would get their hands amputated if it failed, you'd have far fewer people creating businesses. That's why we have bankruptcy laws that protect personal assets in the event of a failed business. It's not just to prevent the owner from spending the rest of their life in permanent indentured servitude; it's to encourage(or at least not discourage) potential business owners to take the risk in the first place.
As MMO's go, you are recommending the former; if someone fails, chop off their (virtual)hands. Make them start all over again.
If you introduced permadeath into an MMO, people would stop taking even the most moderate of risks. There is NO WAY you will get a bunch of people together to fight an epic battle in which they may have only a 20% chance of survival. Hell, they probably wouldn't do it if they had a 20% chance of dying.
And then, imagine the first time a user loses their internet connection and logs back in to find their character permadead. The first time will be the last time as they uninstall the game, nail the disc to a tree and unload some .00 buck into it. Count on it.
All the MMO's I've played, as they sit now, have death penalties that fit the game. Lotro and STO have 0 death penalty other than having to run back to where you died if you want to retry the challenge. That fits, as they're pretty light hearted fare, these days. That works fine for those games. In Eve you lose your ship, and if somebody loots it, you lose all your modules. That fits in a game where pretty much crafting and the economy are major aspects, and everybody is a pirate in a "kill or be killed" environment. But even then, I'd bet there'd be a whole crapload more epic space battles in the game if not for that stinging loss.
The more you crank up the punishment for failure, the less people will do that could lead to failure. As a developer, that's the opposite result of what you want. You want people to keep pushing to find their potential. And big losses only discourage that.
people's willingness to takes risks directly relates to the consequences of failure, in real life, or in games. In real life, if we enacted a law that stated that anyone who created a business would get their hands amputated if it failed, you'd have far fewer people creating businesses. That's why we have bankruptcy laws that protect personal assets in the event of a failed business. It's not just to prevent the owner from spending the rest of their life in permanent indentured servitude; it's to encourage(or at least not discourage) potential business owners to take the risk in the first place.
As MMO's go, you are recommending the former; if someone fails, chop off their (virtual)hands. Make them start all over again.
If you introduced permadeath into an MMO, people would stop taking even the most moderate of risks. There is NO WAY you will get a bunch of people together to fight an epic battle in which they may have only a 20% chance of survival. Hell, they probably wouldn't do it if they had a 20% chance of dying.
And then, imagine the first time a user loses their internet connection and logs back in to find their character permadead. The first time will be the last time as they uninstall the game, nail the disc to a tree and unload some .00 buck into it. Count on it.
All the MMO's I've played, as they sit now, have death penalties that fit the game. Lotro and STO have 0 death penalty other than having to run back to where you died if you want to retry the challenge. That fits, as they're pretty light hearted fare, these days. That works fine for those games. In Eve you lose your ship, and if somebody loots it, you lose all your modules. That fits in a game where pretty much crafting and the economy are major aspects, and everybody is a pirate in a "kill or be killed" environment. But even then, I'd bet there'd be a whole crapload more epic space battles in the game if not for that stinging loss.
The more you crank up the punishment for failure, the less people will do that could lead to failure. As a developer, that's the opposite result of what you want. You want people to keep pushing to find their potential. And big losses only discourage that.
A recent battle in EvE online cost upwards of 300k USD. No bailouts there buddy boy.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I use to love playing hardcore mode on D2. Made every battle so much more exciting.
but....most devs are aware that permadeath is a customer exit opportunity.
But it is easy to put in an option. D2 has it. D3 has it. Option is the best .. you don't have to use it if you don't like it.
Maybe if a separate perma-death server it will work better, for sure.
But regardless.. exit opportunities (game design wise) are typically not known by the player until they rage quit the game, so making an option that says...
[ X ] - Randomly delete my character due to latency
.. will be selected by many players seeking the challenge but the end result is they will most likely rage quit the game after Random.Range(1,5) attempts.
I use to love playing hardcore mode on D2. Made every battle so much more exciting.
but....most devs are aware that permadeath is a customer exit opportunity.
But it is easy to put in an option. D2 has it. D3 has it. Option is the best .. you don't have to use it if you don't like it.
Maybe if a separate perma-death server it will work better, for sure.
But regardless.. exit opportunities (game design wise) are typically not known by the player until they rage quit the game, so making an option that says...
[ X ] - Randomly delete my character due to latency
.. will be selected by many players seeking the challenge but the end result is they will most likely rage quit the game after Random.Range(1,5) attempts.
Say whatever you want, but most people died on D2 because of dial up lag, and we kept on playing...
This all boils down to being an entitlement issue. I bet most of you would enjoy a game where you just log in and get gear and xp heaped upon for doing absolutely nothing. It could give you a bunch of XBox Live achievements that you can brag about to your hipster buddies.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
If you look into Trials of Ascension - they do an incredible job making permadeath not just a great feature but a great balancing of the game and its players.
The only thing an enforced permadeath will accomplish is to make sure I will never buy that particular MMO.
If I wanted that feature I'd go play Diablo or POE on hardcore.
or you'd just delete your character when you die, and start over.
ToA's "permadeath" is after dying 100 times. LOL! 100 times! I'm not sure I've ever died that many times in any MMO with a single character. Even so, what will the end result be? Each time you die, they will be less and less willing to do things in which death is a possibility. They'll be that level 90 Paladin out in Goldshire killing Murlocks. And they'll get bored. And they'll quit.
If you look into Trials of Ascension - they do an incredible job making permadeath not just a great feature but a great balancing of the game and its players.
The only thing an enforced permadeath will accomplish is to make sure I will never buy that particular MMO.
If I wanted that feature I'd go play Diablo or POE on hardcore.
or you'd just delete your character when you die, and start over.
ToA's "permadeath" is after dying 100 times. LOL! 100 times! I'm not sure I've ever died that many times in any MMO with a single character. Even so, what will the end result be? Each time you die, they will be less and less willing to do things in which death is a possibility. They'll be that level 90 Paladin out in Goldshire killing Murlocks. And they'll get bored. And they'll quit.
Lamest F'in argument that the anti perma crowd keeps spewing forth like so much diarrhea of the brain. You could go kill yourself when your character dies in game too, but just like your prior suggestion it's a horrible idea.
Wow so an old paladin who is near death might not be out on the front lines? You might find him at home farming with friends, or teaching younger disciples the ways of his lord? Oh no that would be too realistic for me!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
All the MMO's I've played, as they sit now, have death penalties that fit the game. Lotro and STO have 0 death penalty other than having to run back to where you died if you want to retry the challenge. That fits, as they're pretty light hearted fare, these days. That works fine for those games. In Eve you lose your ship, and if somebody loots it, you lose all your modules. That fits in a game where pretty much crafting and the economy are major aspects, and everybody is a pirate in a "kill or be killed" environment. But even then, I'd bet there'd be a whole crapload more epic space battles in the game if not for that stinging loss.
A recent battle in EvE online cost upwards of 300k USD. No bailouts there buddy boy.
Add permadeath to the game and they'll start costing a whole lot less. And also stop occurring.
All the MMO's I've played, as they sit now, have death penalties that fit the game. Lotro and STO have 0 death penalty other than having to run back to where you died if you want to retry the challenge. That fits, as they're pretty light hearted fare, these days. That works fine for those games. In Eve you lose your ship, and if somebody loots it, you lose all your modules. That fits in a game where pretty much crafting and the economy are major aspects, and everybody is a pirate in a "kill or be killed" environment. But even then, I'd bet there'd be a whole crapload more epic space battles in the game if not for that stinging loss.
A recent battle in EvE online cost upwards of 300k USD. No bailouts there buddy boy.
Add permadeath to the game and they'll start costing a whole lot less. And also stop occurring.
There actually IS permadeath in EvE it's just not that common. So maybe before you open your mouth you should do a little research instead of just regurgitating what you read on these trollish forums.
your argument makes no sense. These people are losing real money. not sprites and pixels. To me losing my hard earned real life money is much more daunting than having to reroll a character for no extra money.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I think permadeath is more than possible if it is done right.
For example: 1 life to live is extreme and gives a very stinging feeling of permadeath but what about 100 deaths? With 100 deaths, permadeath is diluted and you can prepare for it too. It isn't like this surprise to you. It's expected.
Creates situation where you are gaming the game to earn more lives and not taking risks, promotes power playing and power grouping and everything else possible to minimize the chance of death.
A recent battle in EvE online cost upwards of 300k USD. No bailouts there buddy boy.
Add permadeath to the game and they'll start costing a whole lot less. And also stop occurring.
There actually IS permadeath in EvE it's just not that common. So maybe before you open your mouth you should do a little research instead of just regurgitating what you read on these trollish forums.
your argument makes no sense. These people are losing real money. not sprites and pixels. To me losing my hard earned real life money is much more daunting than having to reroll a character for no extra money.
How does one achieve permadeath in Eve? I suppose you're counting being stuck on a PoS that was "aquired" by the enemy permadeath? Or someone who's not smart enough to have a clone in hi sec?
If you(or "they") pay real money for ships(especially with them being "consumable" and all), then they deserve to lose the money.
I use to love playing hardcore mode on D2. Made every battle so much more exciting.
but....most devs are aware that permadeath is a customer exit opportunity.
But it is easy to put in an option. D2 has it. D3 has it. Option is the best .. you don't have to use it if you don't like it.
Maybe if a separate perma-death server it will work better, for sure.
But regardless.. exit opportunities (game design wise) are typically not known by the player until they rage quit the game, so making an option that says...
[ X ] - Randomly delete my character due to latency
.. will be selected by many players seeking the challenge but the end result is they will most likely rage quit the game after Random.Range(1,5) attempts.
Personally i do not play PD mode but i believe last time Blizz gave out numbers, there are like almost 1M players playing hardcore in D3 .... so whatever you say, there are people who do that .. and if you go to the D3 toon sites, there are many making it to the max level.
A recent battle in EvE online cost upwards of 300k USD. No bailouts there buddy boy.
Add permadeath to the game and they'll start costing a whole lot less. And also stop occurring.
There actually IS permadeath in EvE it's just not that common. So maybe before you open your mouth you should do a little research instead of just regurgitating what you read on these trollish forums.
your argument makes no sense. These people are losing real money. not sprites and pixels. To me losing my hard earned real life money is much more daunting than having to reroll a character for no extra money.
How does one achieve permadeath in Eve? I suppose you're counting being stuck on a PoS that was "aquired" by the enemy permadeath? Or someone who's not smart enough to have a clone in hi sec?
If you(or "they") pay real money for ships(especially with them being "consumable" and all), then they deserve to lose the money.
You just gave two examples... Why are you asking me? Do you have any idea how the economy works in EvE?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Why not ask them about Haven & Hearth first, and then look at where the REAL shortcomings in Salem are. Poor graphics, clunky ui, boring as hell combat system... It's not permadeath that sunk that ship. In fact it's what they used to Christen it.
You're funny... citing that a beta testing game is wiping the servers, and that control is being handed back to the ORIGINAL developers spells doom and gloom for you huh?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Only way permadeath would work in an MMO is if it was a PvE only game. If you want PvP and permadeath, I suggest you play a game that's sole purpose isn't content and progression, like a BF4 or CoD. Think about what you're asking and tell me if permadeath makes any sense in an MMO?
Not to mention, the whole progression thing. What happens if you're fighting a creature or whatever and you lose connection? So you're untimely demise was not your fault, but too bad, you're dead? Sorry, permadeath will never make it into mainstream MMO's, so you'll have to take a financial risk or most likely a suicide and fund your own MMO company.
Kickstarter... look it up
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I think permadeath is more than possible if it is done right.
For example: 1 life to live is extreme and gives a very stinging feeling of permadeath but what about 100 deaths? With 100 deaths, permadeath is diluted and you can prepare for it too. It isn't like this surprise to you. It's expected.
Creates situation where you are gaming the game to earn more lives and not taking risks, promotes power playing and power grouping and everything else possible to minimize the chance of death.
All leads to very toxic and unfriendly behavior.
Or you just use your game genie.
How much ya wanna bet ToA will have a system for replenishing lives within the first year...?
I remember the Dragon Realms MUDD from the 90's working like that. You'd charge soul spheres at a temple which would give you extra lives. But if you don't do that, ya die.
Guess what people did? Guess what people didn't do when they were out of soul spheres?
Methinx being a pre-NGE jedi in SWG is good historical evidence of what will happen. I wonder what system(if any) ToA will have to prevent gangs of players from repeatedly group killing players til' they run out of lives.
Comments
Your point about the difference between a carefully crafted character and a cookie cutter character is a good distinction, too.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
compareing a single player game to a MMO doun work vry well. and yes i know it has online co-op dousnt make it any less of a single player game.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Perma death = Another holy grail mythical creature (and an idiotic mechanic to put in an mmorpg GAME) dreamed up by jaded mmorpg geeks who need to leave the genre alone. No. Perma death is dumb, and anything other than dying and not being able to play EVER AGAIN isn't perma death.
Go camping dawg. Seriously.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The only thing an enforced permadeath will accomplish is to make sure I will never buy that particular MMO.
If I wanted that feature I'd go play Diablo or POE on hardcore.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Great, if you design the game around it. You make it sound like you want a WoW type of game with permadeath, which nobody would play. Darkfall has permadeath, right? Why isn't that good enough?
people's willingness to takes risks directly relates to the consequences of failure, in real life, or in games. In real life, if we enacted a law that stated that anyone who created a business would get their hands amputated if it failed, you'd have far fewer people creating businesses. That's why we have bankruptcy laws that protect personal assets in the event of a failed business. It's not just to prevent the owner from spending the rest of their life in permanent indentured servitude; it's to encourage(or at least not discourage) potential business owners to take the risk in the first place.
As MMO's go, you are recommending the former; if someone fails, chop off their (virtual)hands. Make them start all over again.
If you introduced permadeath into an MMO, people would stop taking even the most moderate of risks. There is NO WAY you will get a bunch of people together to fight an epic battle in which they may have only a 20% chance of survival. Hell, they probably wouldn't do it if they had a 20% chance of dying.
And then, imagine the first time a user loses their internet connection and logs back in to find their character permadead. The first time will be the last time as they uninstall the game, nail the disc to a tree and unload some .00 buck into it. Count on it.
All the MMO's I've played, as they sit now, have death penalties that fit the game. Lotro and STO have 0 death penalty other than having to run back to where you died if you want to retry the challenge. That fits, as they're pretty light hearted fare, these days. That works fine for those games. In Eve you lose your ship, and if somebody loots it, you lose all your modules. That fits in a game where pretty much crafting and the economy are major aspects, and everybody is a pirate in a "kill or be killed" environment. But even then, I'd bet there'd be a whole crapload more epic space battles in the game if not for that stinging loss.
The more you crank up the punishment for failure, the less people will do that could lead to failure. As a developer, that's the opposite result of what you want. You want people to keep pushing to find their potential. And big losses only discourage that.
Used to say the same thing but since I've been playing Path of Exile from Novembers' launch I can never get used to the softcore leagues.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
A recent battle in EvE online cost upwards of 300k USD. No bailouts there buddy boy.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Maybe if a separate perma-death server it will work better, for sure.
But regardless.. exit opportunities (game design wise) are typically not known by the player until they rage quit the game, so making an option that says...
[ X ] - Randomly delete my character due to latency
.. will be selected by many players seeking the challenge but the end result is they will most likely rage quit the game after Random.Range(1,5) attempts.
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Say whatever you want, but most people died on D2 because of dial up lag, and we kept on playing...
This all boils down to being an entitlement issue. I bet most of you would enjoy a game where you just log in and get gear and xp heaped upon for doing absolutely nothing. It could give you a bunch of XBox Live achievements that you can brag about to your hipster buddies.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
or you'd just delete your character when you die, and start over.
ToA's "permadeath" is after dying 100 times. LOL! 100 times! I'm not sure I've ever died that many times in any MMO with a single character. Even so, what will the end result be? Each time you die, they will be less and less willing to do things in which death is a possibility. They'll be that level 90 Paladin out in Goldshire killing Murlocks. And they'll get bored. And they'll quit.
Lamest F'in argument that the anti perma crowd keeps spewing forth like so much diarrhea of the brain. You could go kill yourself when your character dies in game too, but just like your prior suggestion it's a horrible idea.
Wow so an old paladin who is near death might not be out on the front lines? You might find him at home farming with friends, or teaching younger disciples the ways of his lord? Oh no that would be too realistic for me!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Add permadeath to the game and they'll start costing a whole lot less. And also stop occurring.
There actually IS permadeath in EvE it's just not that common. So maybe before you open your mouth you should do a little research instead of just regurgitating what you read on these trollish forums.
your argument makes no sense. These people are losing real money. not sprites and pixels. To me losing my hard earned real life money is much more daunting than having to reroll a character for no extra money.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Creates situation where you are gaming the game to earn more lives and not taking risks, promotes power playing and power grouping and everything else possible to minimize the chance of death.
All leads to very toxic and unfriendly behavior.
Or you just use your game genie.
How does one achieve permadeath in Eve? I suppose you're counting being stuck on a PoS that was "aquired" by the enemy permadeath? Or someone who's not smart enough to have a clone in hi sec?
If you(or "they") pay real money for ships(especially with them being "consumable" and all), then they deserve to lose the money.
Personally i do not play PD mode but i believe last time Blizz gave out numbers, there are like almost 1M players playing hardcore in D3 .... so whatever you say, there are people who do that .. and if you go to the D3 toon sites, there are many making it to the max level.
You just gave two examples... Why are you asking me? Do you have any idea how the economy works in EvE?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Ask the investors of "SALEM" (has permadeath feature) how thrilled they are with the games sales, profit and the return on their investment.
The way things are going you had better ask quickly.
or look up SALEM on this website and look for these topics
Salem News - Seatribe to Take Over Management & Ownership
or
Character Wipe & Server Reset Announced
Why not ask them about Haven & Hearth first, and then look at where the REAL shortcomings in Salem are. Poor graphics, clunky ui, boring as hell combat system... It's not permadeath that sunk that ship. In fact it's what they used to Christen it.
You're funny... citing that a beta testing game is wiping the servers, and that control is being handed back to the ORIGINAL developers spells doom and gloom for you huh?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
No one asked you to.
If we replace the word "Permadeath" with "Same sex marriages" you people would all look like horrible bigots.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Kickstarter... look it up
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
How much ya wanna bet ToA will have a system for replenishing lives within the first year...?
I remember the Dragon Realms MUDD from the 90's working like that. You'd charge soul spheres at a temple which would give you extra lives. But if you don't do that, ya die.
Guess what people did? Guess what people didn't do when they were out of soul spheres?
Methinx being a pre-NGE jedi in SWG is good historical evidence of what will happen. I wonder what system(if any) ToA will have to prevent gangs of players from repeatedly group killing players til' they run out of lives.