Sandboxes are niche games, always have been and always will be. Theme parks appeal the masses, like WoW does for example, and masses don't want sandboxes, they want cheap shallow entertainment.
People seem to miss the fact that hard core gamers are a minority in gaming world now. It is simple, over one billion people have access to computers now, a minority are gamers.
I love sandboxes, and those are the only games I play. Theme parks should not be made if I was to be asked, but I'm not. So that is fine.
You forget that alot of player have never gotten the oppotunity to play a sandbox or anything sandboxy at all, If WoW the first game they started playing (which 80% of the population probaly did) they never even realy got a chance to even try a sandbox cause since WoW there is a real limited amount of sandbox games out there.
WoW ruined a genre (not intentionaly) its only now its just started to fix itself and expand again This video explains better than anyway i could:
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
Sandboxes, as defined by people on these forums, will never exist.
Actually Sandboxes never really existed, people just thought they did. UO wasn't a sandbox, SWG wasn't, even the "great" EVE isn't.
Minecraft is a sandbox. It has been the only game to date that has the true requirements of a sandbox.
Until what deems a sandbox is clearly defined there will never be a sandbox mmo.
When people say 'sandbox MMO' they are simply saying the game is centered around, focused or heavily leaning toward that type of content.
One doesn't have to first create the universe to bake a cake from scratch.
I believe this image comes to mind on what you are saying.
[some crazy scribble in paint]
Except I wouldn't call that scale accurate at all. Levels, classes and races are simply RPG elements that we have seen since the original Dungeons & Dragons and has nothing to do with themepark or sandbox.
Agreed, but the presence of the term 'sandpark' (let alone the arbitrary scale of 10-0) makes it rather clear it was designed by someone who really doesn't understand the topic at all, so calling it simply inaccurate is being rather generous.
No you are just no understanding or choosing not to. Its on a scale from 0-10 because all games start off as sandboxes.
Game engine is the 0 for all games. Thats totally sandbox. But most games dont give access to that. Hince the restrictions by developers.
You are working on the false premise that sandbox means absence of gameplay, content and rules.
Thats because its not false at all.
again look at the Minecraft example I used on page 2. Minecraft is a sandbox, but people have modded the game to have more restrictions like for example, building World of Minecraft WoW like mod. that adds a layer of restriction on top of the Minecraft sandbox. The game becomes themepark with that mod. But without that mod, its still minecraft, which is a sandbox.
Themepark and Sandbox is all a scale. its no one or the other. its both. its all about how many restrictions are being built on top of the sandbox, that determines how themepark or sandbox a game is.
I would like to ask you, can you name a few sandbox MMOs off the top of your head here? I will give you an example.
Sandboxes are niche games, always have been and always will be. Theme parks appeal the masses, like WoW does for example, and masses don't want sandboxes, they want cheap shallow entertainment.
People seem to miss the fact that hard core gamers are a minority in gaming world now. It is simple, over one billion people have access to computers now, a minority are gamers.
I love sandboxes, and those are the only games I play. Theme parks should not be made if I was to be asked, but I'm not. So that is fine.
You forget that alot of player have never gotten the oppotunity to play a sandbox or anything sandboxy at all, If WoW the first game they started playing (which 80% of the population probaly did) they never even realy got a chance to even try a sandbox cause since WoW there is a real limited amount of sandbox games out there.
WoW ruined a genre (not intentionaly) its only now its just started to fix itself and expand again This video explains better than anyway i could:
WoW didn't "ruin" the genre, it simply narrowed it's focus. But on the flip side, while the focus was narrowed the number of companies willing to try to compete in the space was drastically increased, and now some of them are willing to broaden their focus again. Without the success of WoW, we might never have reached the point where a substantial number of companies were trying to make AAA MMOs, of any type.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Sandboxes, as defined by people on these forums, will never exist.
Actually Sandboxes never really existed, people just thought they did. UO wasn't a sandbox, SWG wasn't, even the "great" EVE isn't.
Minecraft is a sandbox. It has been the only game to date that has the true requirements of a sandbox.
Until what deems a sandbox is clearly defined there will never be a sandbox mmo.
When people say 'sandbox MMO' they are simply saying the game is centered around, focused or heavily leaning toward that type of content.
One doesn't have to first create the universe to bake a cake from scratch.
I believe this image comes to mind on what you are saying.
[some crazy scribble in paint]
Except I wouldn't call that scale accurate at all. Levels, classes and races are simply RPG elements that we have seen since the original Dungeons & Dragons and has nothing to do with themepark or sandbox.
Agreed, but the presence of the term 'sandpark' (let alone the arbitrary scale of 10-0) makes it rather clear it was designed by someone who really doesn't understand the topic at all, so calling it simply inaccurate is being rather generous.
No you are just no understanding or choosing not to. Its on a scale from 0-10 because all games start off as sandboxes.
Game engine is the 0 for all games. Thats totally sandbox. But most games dont give access to that. Hince the restrictions by developers.
You are working on the false premise that sandbox means absence of gameplay, content and rules.
Thats because its not false at all.
again look at the Minecraft example I used on page 2. Minecraft is a sandbox, but people have modded the game to have more restrictions like for example, building World of Minecraft WoW like mod. that adds a layer of restriction on top of the Minecraft sandbox. The game becomes themepark with that mod. But without that mod, its still minecraft, which is a sandbox.
Themepark and Sandbox is all a scale. its no one or the other. its both. its all about how many restrictions are being built on top of the sandbox, that determines how themepark or sandbox a game is.
I would like to ask you, can you name a few sandbox MMOs off the top of your head here? I will give you an example.
And mods have been created to offer more things to craft, build and design.
nm. Just realized who I'm trying to have a discussion with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
In that case all we need to do is scale up Minecraft to manage thousands of people at once and we'll have the great MMORPG sandbox revolution.
What? What's that? There's no game play? But all we need is a world where people build their own stuff and it's a sandbox MMORPG!
Yeah, me thinks your definition is lacking a bit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
The critical element of sandbox isn't player created content.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
My hands have been held so much that I've grown callouses.
I've been lost in a nightmarish themepark for 7 years and I've ridden every rollercoaster so many times I feel sick.
I feel like AAA themeparks are a clingy ex girlfriend who keeps trying to get me back with promises of change (expansions / content) and the bitch just doesn't get it!
We're over!
nah but seriously, this new wave of sandboxy games it was the genre needs. It took a few years of stagnated samey games to make devs realise but I'm glad they've noticed. I'm excited for the future of mmo's
I am the Arch-fiend, the Despoiler of Worlds, and by my hands shall the false Emperor fall.
I have played a true sandbox mmo. Ragnarok Online back in 2004. The game literally plopped you in the word were there were NO quests and NO direction. The economy was completely player driven. There was no "end game". Getting to level 99 was the ultimate goal and a hard to reach one at that, which gave a lot of prestige to players who did. The death penalty was steep (1% exp when it took me 5 hours to get 1% at lvl95 with my assassin).
I have craved an experience like that ever since. It promoted community SO much. I loved that at around level 75 you were ready for the highest level dungeons which meant that the whole ride was "end game". Every mmo I've played since then seems so simple and easy in comparison.
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
In that case all we need to do is scale up Minecraft to manage thousands of people at once and we'll have the great MMORPG sandbox revolution.
What? What's that? There's no game play? But all we need is a world where people build their own stuff and it's a sandbox MMORPG!
Yeah, me thinks your definition is lacking a bit.
Lizard, you're putting the emphasis on the open world aspect, when what he's speaking specifically about is the tools to use in it. "Open world" can be a feature of sandbox-style games, but it does not define it. It is simply the easiest way to offer space to make the choices and use the tools that the sandbox-style game offers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why does this aurgument even exist. Categorize the games, fine. But you play a game because it is fun. What is fun is different for so many people. So download the game, give it a shot, if you like it great, if not then too bad.
For the person that augues that openworld non-linear game play is not a Sandbox element then neither is PVP in any implementation.
Why does this aurgument even exist. Categorize the games, fine. But you play a game because it is fun. What is fun is different for so many people. So download the game, give it a shot, if you like it great, if not then too bad.
For the person that augues that openworld non-linear game play is not a Sandbox element then neither is PVP in any implementation.
I would say "fun" is more of a sandbox element than open world.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The critical element of sandbox isn't player created content.
"Critical" can be a matter of opinion. It is however the *defining* element. If a game doesn't include some form of player generated content, it isn't even partially a sandbox. Terms have meanings, and the meaning of "sandbox" isn't "game I like that I don't want to call a themepark because I want to call games I don't like themeparks."
EDIT: To clarify, a game is themepark to the extent it includes developer provided static content. It is sandbox to the extent it provides players with the tools to create content. Any other element of the game is an element which has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is sandbox or themepark, they aren't terms which define the totality of the experience, they only refer to the manner in which content is created.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
The critical element of sandbox isn't player created content.
"Critical" can be a matter of opinion. It is however the *defining* element. If a game doesn't include some form of player generated content, it isn't even partially a sandbox. Terms have meanings, and the meaning of "sandbox" isn't "game I like that I don't want to call a themepark because I want to call games I don't like themeparks."
EDIT: To clarify, a game is themepark to the extent it includes developer provided static content. It is sandbox to the extent it provides players with the tools to create content. Any other element of the game is an element which has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is sandbox or themepark, they aren't terms which define the totality of the experience, they only refer to the manner in which content is created.
Content creation determines whether something is a sandbox or themepark? My wife and I create our own content in lotro. It's not a sandbox.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
The critical element of sandbox isn't player created content.
Of course it is. Are you familiar with real life sandboxes? <g>
Its not only critical its defining. It's both necessary and sufficient. That's why I pointed to Little Big Planet as a sandbox. The game play is 2d and linear but you can create an entire game with the included engine.
If we ignore this the word just becomes something for people who LIKE some games and don't like others. Its' not open world:
GTA V is open world - Skyrim is open world -but you know what - SO IS WOW!
Its not games with few quests - EQ had few quests - but it is entirely themepark.
It's not procedurally generated content: tetris is all procedurally generated - its not a sandbox. Much of Diablo III is procedurally generated.
It's not a lack of quests. Lots of older MMOs like EQ didn't have quests and they were still a themepark. Various scriped static monster enocunters and such. GW2 is not quest driven by any stretch.
It's not world PvP - again see world of Warcraft.
So if we define sandbox as 'games we like" and not sandbox as 'games we don't like" - then sure they are the future. Sandbox is already here by that standard. Why all the cool games have it. <g>
Sandboxes, as defined by people on these forums, will never exist.
Actually Sandboxes never really existed, people just thought they did. UO wasn't a sandbox, SWG wasn't, even the "great" EVE isn't.
Minecraft is a sandbox. It has been the only game to date that has the true requirements of a sandbox.
Until what deems a sandbox is clearly defined there will never be a sandbox mmo.
When people say 'sandbox MMO' they are simply saying the game is centered around, focused or heavily leaning toward that type of content.
One doesn't have to first create the universe to bake a cake from scratch.
I believe this image comes to mind on what you are saying.
[some crazy scribble in paint]
Except I wouldn't call that scale accurate at all. Levels, classes and races are simply RPG elements that we have seen since the original Dungeons & Dragons and has nothing to do with themepark or sandbox.
Agreed, but the presence of the term 'sandpark' (let alone the arbitrary scale of 10-0) makes it rather clear it was designed by someone who really doesn't understand the topic at all, so calling it simply inaccurate is being rather generous.
No you are just no understanding or choosing not to. Its on a scale from 0-10 because all games start off as sandboxes.
Game engine is the 0 for all games. Thats totally sandbox. But most games dont give access to that. Hince the restrictions by developers.
You are working on the false premise that sandbox means absence of gameplay, content and rules.
Thats because its not false at all.
again look at the Minecraft example I used on page 2. Minecraft is a sandbox, but people have modded the game to have more restrictions like for example, building World of Minecraft WoW like mod. that adds a layer of restriction on top of the Minecraft sandbox. The game becomes themepark with that mod. But without that mod, its still minecraft, which is a sandbox.
Themepark and Sandbox is all a scale. its no one or the other. its both. its all about how many restrictions are being built on top of the sandbox, that determines how themepark or sandbox a game is.
I would like to ask you, can you name a few sandbox MMOs off the top of your head here? I will give you an example.
And mods have been created to offer more things to craft, build and design.
nm. Just realized who I'm trying to have a discussion with.
The personal insults tactic won't work.
Those mods add a layer of restrictions to the sandbox game whixh is Minecraft.
Minecraft is the sandbox. But the modder builds rules on top ofMinecraft that makes it more themepark.
Again using the World of Minecraft example. Some modder with their own ruleset turned Minecraft into a World of Warcraftclone.
The reason this is possible, because all games at their root start off as sandboxes. The developer's content and rules are only layers upon layers added on top of the sandbox which pushes the game on the scale towards themepark.
Like others hhave said, Sandbox/Theme park isn't just games we like/Dislike.
And there is no" either or". Its a scale from Sandbox to Theme park. Most games are in the middle of the two extremes.
I think sandbox elements becoming more common is a combination of things.
One is the idea of sandbox game play becoming mainstream. GTA V's nonlinear story lines and open world sold so fast that it made national news. Skyrim's sales weren't exactly chump change either. These games aren't exactly sandboxes to many people, but they are open world games, and the player spends their time how they wish, rather than following a single path down a single corridor. Minecraft has broken sales records not only with their PC sales, but recently with their console sales. Minecraft is most definitely a sandbox in nearly every sense of the word.
Skyrim, Fallout 3, GTA V are all fun games. But they are not sandbox. They are not the least bit sandbox. On the sandbox sale of things those are 9.9 themepark - at least. The developers might give you the illusion that you are free - but its a trick. Its just scripted stuff that happens when you do other stuff. It branches a little more but its not fundamentally different then any themepark mmo. Minecraft is sandbox - and that's it.
Here is an analogy. Themepark is watching a movie. Sandbox is getting a video camera and making your own movie. The problem with actual sandbox play is that most people suck at making movies. If they were good they would be getting paid. Sandbox doesn't solve the lack of good content problem. It provides lots of lousy crappy content. Some people need that - the people that have a lot of time to kill and want to make a movie even though it might suck.
There is no golden age of sandbox on the horizon. Now if you think GTA V is a 'sandbox' yeah open world games are popular - but they always have been.
I didn't say they were sandboxes. It's right there in the text you quoted. They are non-linear, open world games. That is an important aspect of sandbox game play. It's significant that it's not just popular, it's part of the best selling game ever written.
Though, based on your response, it doesn't seem like you actually read the my post. You just picked out the words, "sandbox", "GTA V", "Skyrim" and "Fallout" and went from there.
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
The critical element of sandbox isn't player created content.
Of course it is. Are you familiar with real life sandboxes?
Its not only critical its defining. It's both necessary and sufficient. That's why I pointed to Little Big Planet as a sandbox. The game play is 2d and linear but you can create an entire game with the included engine.
If we ignore this the word just becomes something for people who LIKE some games and don't like others. Its' not open world:
GTA V is open world - Skyrim is open world -but you know what - SO IS WOW!
Its not games with few quests - EQ had few quests - but it is entirely themepark.
It's not procedurally generated content: tetris is all procedurally generated - its not a sandbox. Much of Diablo III is procedurally generated.
It's not a lack of quests. Lots of older MMOs like EQ didn't have quests and they were still a themepark. Various scriped static monster enocunters and such. GW2 is not quest driven by any stretch.
It's not world PvP - again see world of Warcraft.
So if we define sandbox as 'games we like" and not sandbox as 'games we don't like" - then sure they are the future. Sandbox is already here by that standard. Why all the cool games have it.
We don't define sandbox like that. Creating content has zero to do with sandbox.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Yes we do. The word sandbox wad not chosen randomly. It was a weird that already had meaning. In a sandbox you could create something. The word wad chosen for games to reflect that this particular game, whatever game is being discussed, let you create something. Hence sandbox.
Lack of content has nothing to do with it. You could have lots or little.
Linear or not is harder. It may not be a defining trait but in my mind is critical simply because the more linear typically the more restricted their the less creative ability. But not always.
But you still have to create. Whether that means the ability to construct new things or strange then in New ways or make quests... arguably they could all be considered creation. It offs nit limited to building. Just creating.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Sandboxes, as defined by people on these forums, will never exist.
Actually Sandboxes never really existed, people just thought they did. UO wasn't a sandbox, SWG wasn't, even the "great" EVE isn't.
Minecraft is a sandbox. It has been the only game to date that has the true requirements of a sandbox.
Until what deems a sandbox is clearly defined there will never be a sandbox mmo.
When people say 'sandbox MMO' they are simply saying the game is centered around, focused or heavily leaning toward that type of content.
One doesn't have to first create the universe to bake a cake from scratch.
Couldnt have said it any better, Lok. thanks
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Comments
You forget that alot of player have never gotten the oppotunity to play a sandbox or anything sandboxy at all, If WoW the first game they started playing (which 80% of the population probaly did) they never even realy got a chance to even try a sandbox cause since WoW there is a real limited amount of sandbox games out there.
WoW ruined a genre (not intentionaly) its only now its just started to fix itself and expand again This video explains better than anyway i could:
I did read your post. Open world is not a part of sandbox gameplay. Its just part of the gameplay of games you like. Little Big Planet IS a sandbox. Its 2d and linear. But you have freedom to create levels - and all kinds of stuff.
The critical element of sandbox is player created content. Skyrim is the TINIEST bit sandbox because you can create addons for it and such. Sandbox means you build the castle - and the Knights and the moat etc etc. I think you KNOW this but you just want to imagine that somehow these always popular open world games are somehow related to sandbox games.
Thats because its not false at all.
again look at the Minecraft example I used on page 2. Minecraft is a sandbox, but people have modded the game to have more restrictions like for example, building World of Minecraft WoW like mod. that adds a layer of restriction on top of the Minecraft sandbox. The game becomes themepark with that mod. But without that mod, its still minecraft, which is a sandbox.
Themepark and Sandbox is all a scale. its no one or the other. its both. its all about how many restrictions are being built on top of the sandbox, that determines how themepark or sandbox a game is.
I would like to ask you, can you name a few sandbox MMOs off the top of your head here? I will give you an example.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
WoW didn't "ruin" the genre, it simply narrowed it's focus. But on the flip side, while the focus was narrowed the number of companies willing to try to compete in the space was drastically increased, and now some of them are willing to broaden their focus again. Without the success of WoW, we might never have reached the point where a substantial number of companies were trying to make AAA MMOs, of any type.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
in short the indie movement but pre-crowd funding and post crowd-funding has given prominence to 'sandbox'.
I think the question is will the big firms pay attention
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
And mods have been created to offer more things to craft, build and design.
nm. Just realized who I'm trying to have a discussion with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In that case all we need to do is scale up Minecraft to manage thousands of people at once and we'll have the great MMORPG sandbox revolution.
What? What's that? There's no game play? But all we need is a world where people build their own stuff and it's a sandbox MMORPG!
Yeah, me thinks your definition is lacking a bit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The critical element of sandbox isn't player created content.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
My hands have been held so much that I've grown callouses.
I've been lost in a nightmarish themepark for 7 years and I've ridden every rollercoaster so many times I feel sick.
I feel like AAA themeparks are a clingy ex girlfriend who keeps trying to get me back with promises of change (expansions / content) and the bitch just doesn't get it!
We're over!
nah but seriously, this new wave of sandboxy games it was the genre needs. It took a few years of stagnated samey games to make devs realise but I'm glad they've noticed. I'm excited for the future of mmo's
I am the Arch-fiend, the Despoiler of Worlds, and by my hands shall the false Emperor fall.
I have played a true sandbox mmo. Ragnarok Online back in 2004. The game literally plopped you in the word were there were NO quests and NO direction. The economy was completely player driven. There was no "end game". Getting to level 99 was the ultimate goal and a hard to reach one at that, which gave a lot of prestige to players who did. The death penalty was steep (1% exp when it took me 5 hours to get 1% at lvl95 with my assassin).
I have craved an experience like that ever since. It promoted community SO much. I loved that at around level 75 you were ready for the highest level dungeons which meant that the whole ride was "end game". Every mmo I've played since then seems so simple and easy in comparison.
Lizard, you're putting the emphasis on the open world aspect, when what he's speaking specifically about is the tools to use in it. "Open world" can be a feature of sandbox-style games, but it does not define it. It is simply the easiest way to offer space to make the choices and use the tools that the sandbox-style game offers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why does this aurgument even exist. Categorize the games, fine. But you play a game because it is fun. What is fun is different for so many people. So download the game, give it a shot, if you like it great, if not then too bad.
For the person that augues that openworld non-linear game play is not a Sandbox element then neither is PVP in any implementation.
I would say "fun" is more of a sandbox element than open world.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"Critical" can be a matter of opinion. It is however the *defining* element. If a game doesn't include some form of player generated content, it isn't even partially a sandbox. Terms have meanings, and the meaning of "sandbox" isn't "game I like that I don't want to call a themepark because I want to call games I don't like themeparks."
EDIT: To clarify, a game is themepark to the extent it includes developer provided static content. It is sandbox to the extent it provides players with the tools to create content. Any other element of the game is an element which has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is sandbox or themepark, they aren't terms which define the totality of the experience, they only refer to the manner in which content is created.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Content creation determines whether something is a sandbox or themepark? My wife and I create our own content in lotro. It's not a sandbox.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I don't think most of the games being referred to as sandbox will actually ship without rails attached, especially the AAA titles.
It just seems that the more we know about these games the less sandbox-ish they seem. (Yes I'm talking about ArcheAge and EQ:Next here)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Of course it is. Are you familiar with real life sandboxes? <g>
Its not only critical its defining. It's both necessary and sufficient. That's why I pointed to Little Big Planet as a sandbox. The game play is 2d and linear but you can create an entire game with the included engine.
If we ignore this the word just becomes something for people who LIKE some games and don't like others. Its' not open world:
GTA V is open world - Skyrim is open world -but you know what - SO IS WOW!
Its not games with few quests - EQ had few quests - but it is entirely themepark.
It's not procedurally generated content: tetris is all procedurally generated - its not a sandbox. Much of Diablo III is procedurally generated.
It's not a lack of quests. Lots of older MMOs like EQ didn't have quests and they were still a themepark. Various scriped static monster enocunters and such. GW2 is not quest driven by any stretch.
It's not world PvP - again see world of Warcraft.
So if we define sandbox as 'games we like" and not sandbox as 'games we don't like" - then sure they are the future. Sandbox is already here by that standard. Why all the cool games have it. <g>
The personal insults tactic won't work.
Those mods add a layer of restrictions to the sandbox game whixh is Minecraft.
Minecraft is the sandbox. But the modder builds rules on top ofMinecraft that makes it more themepark.
Again using the World of Minecraft example. Some modder with their own ruleset turned Minecraft into a World of Warcraftclone.
The reason this is possible, because all games at their root start off as sandboxes. The developer's content and rules are only layers upon layers added on top of the sandbox which pushes the game on the scale towards themepark.
Like others hhave said, Sandbox/Theme park isn't just games we like/Dislike.
And there is no" either or". Its a scale from Sandbox to Theme park. Most games are in the middle of the two extremes.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
We don't define sandbox like that. Creating content has zero to do with sandbox.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Lack of content has nothing to do with it. You could have lots or little.
Linear or not is harder. It may not be a defining trait but in my mind is critical simply because the more linear typically the more restricted their the less creative ability. But not always.
But you still have to create. Whether that means the ability to construct new things or strange then in New ways or make quests... arguably they could all be considered creation. It offs nit limited to building. Just creating.
Couldnt have said it any better, Lok. thanks
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins