Originally posted by mastersam21 I agree I dont like much a limiting Active toolset, I believe its designed that way because of console limitation.
It is a myth that it is because the game will be ported to consoles too. Other mmos have limited active toolsets as you put it that are not ported to consoles.
These games tend to be action oriented mmos and THAT is why they have limited skill slots. You are doing a great deal more while playing. It has been posted by many (including me) exactly how many hotkeys you end up using because of this system. The core game design is built around not playing the UI and the resource system limits skill duplication that is present in cooldown systems.
Certain UI design choices may very well be influenced by console porting but barely if at all the limited skill deck. The very core of the system is to force players to unique build decks they feel work for their purpose. Having many open skill slots destroys this concept ... regardless what platform this game is played on.
Besides... you guys are oversimplifying things... 10 skills + 2 ultimates + X for a synergy skill based on a skill an ally near you just used + left click for standard weapon attack + left hold for strong weapon attack + right click for block + click both for interrupt or to break CC + control for stealth + Q to use something from your items wheel (potions, traps, siege weapons, etc.) ... nothing as simple as "only 5"
I count 19 there and I'm probably forgetting something.
Thank you I was about to say the same thing. And between three class trees, your weapon skill trees, Mages Guild/Fighters guild, Undaunted, Vampire/Werewolves trees there are a lot of skills to choose from. Also weapons have different types, so you have Fire staves, Lightning, Ice, etc. so even the basic/heavy left click attacks will be different. It's a good setup they have going.
As far as the number of skills at once, I like that they designed it for people to be playing the game rather than playing the UI.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Guys im not talking about the active skills you have in possession while in combat but about the whole active skill list that exists in the game
What i see is that there is not much variation.
In my opinion they should have included all schools of magic plus a lot more skills for all weapons.
That's what the game starts with and is a part of the game that will be getting frequent updates. The Thieve's and Dark Brotherhood skill lines are already known to be in the works for addition pretty quickly after launch. There will be new weapons and possibly even new classes at some point.
And the lines themselves have room for tweaks: currently there's no choice to make with base active skills. It's only the morph that gives you a choice. They could easily add "either / or" choices for some acitves when they first unlock and even more easily morph the morphs.
And if you;re not seeing much variety you're not paying attention to the World (soul, Vampire, Werewolf) skills, Guild (Mage's, Fighter's, Undaunted) skills or Aliiance (support and assault) skills... variety is what those 8 skill lines are all about.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by FaustusIV So you are saying the game allows us to have more options for unique and interesting templates by limiting our potential skill sets?
AFAIR, in most MMOs:
- you are 'given' the vast majority of your skills on level up... I didn't pick 'normal attack IV' or 'heals 0.2 health more than that other one III'.
- a large number of skills have no need to exist. shift-ctrl-3 is 'call horse', alt-ctrl-6 is 'recall to town', shift-ctrl-alt-escape-backslash-5 is one of my 24-minute buffs...
- skills duplicate each other. You often find yourself with 3 different attacks that do the same thing, just named differently, assigned to a different button. Mostly you spam A, and if that's on cooldown you spam B instead. If you have a programmable keyboard/macro system then you work out how to avoid getting RSI.
SWTOR was probably the breaking point for me - a keyboard with half the keys mapped, and yet there was only a handful of 'options' represented in those keys - the 'skill' was trying to work out which button wasn't on cooldown. (STO was another example of 'lol, need more keys').
Whilst ESO is undoubtedly designed in this manner for consoles, I like it.
It is a balancing thing if you could take 10 skills for one weapon, it would be op. They must adjust the Hitpoints, PvE Content and so on.
You got 12 Skills to use, use and choose them wisely. I like it it this reminds me of GW1.
It has very little to do with balancing. PC mmo players are use to having a wide range of skills for their weapon/class. Whether this has been a caster, melee dps, tank. healer, support or whatever. Game developers have had to balance classes for years that use multi-layer skill bars.
Sure people will say - "that class was op back in [insert game here] until it got nerfed" That's pretty standard for an mmo and will continue - even with this game/wildstar/eqn as the devs monitor any balance issues.
The criteria is not balance, it's the limitations of a controller. They dress it up with the "now players have to make a choice which skills to use - you know what? - We did before. Your character had a wide range of skills to use at any one time - but so did your opposition.
One of the few games (not the only one) to actively separate the two input methods is ffxiv.
Take a quick look at this, and click on "mouse and keyboard" & "gamepad" to see the differences.
Unfortunately if the devs just try for one all encompassing interface, then it comes down to the lowest common denominator - in this case the limited sophistication of the controller - ok for super mario, but not for a comprehensive range of active skills.
It is a balancing thing if you could take 10 skills for one weapon, it would be op. They must adjust the Hitpoints, PvE Content and so on.
You got 12 Skills to use, use and choose them wisely. I like it it this reminds me of GW1.
Nonsense...
If there would be more skills, it would be harder to controll with a console controller...
Not that the combat is bad with just those 5 skills, its really fun, but ballance is not a reason for this decision.
Personally i would have loved to see a few more active skills on the bars, eight skills and two ultimate skills, for each weapon... because having a realtime choice (also for ultimates) is allways good..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
It is a myth that it is because the game will be ported to consoles too. Other mmos have limited active toolsets as you put it that are not ported to consoles.
These games tend to be action oriented mmos and THAT is why they have limited skill slots. You are doing a great deal more while playing. It has been posted by many (including me) exactly how many hotkeys you end up using because of this system. The core game design is built around not playing the UI and the resource system limits skill duplication that is present in cooldown systems.
Certain UI design choices may very well be influenced by console porting but barely if at all the limited skill deck. The very core of the system is to force players to unique build decks they feel work for their purpose. Having many open skill slots destroys this concept ... regardless what platform this game is played on.
You stay sassy!
Fortunately, it is an MMO, so missing things will likely be added over time.
An interesting theory...
Thank you I was about to say the same thing. And between three class trees, your weapon skill trees, Mages Guild/Fighters guild, Undaunted, Vampire/Werewolves trees there are a lot of skills to choose from. Also weapons have different types, so you have Fire staves, Lightning, Ice, etc. so even the basic/heavy left click attacks will be different. It's a good setup they have going.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
That's what the game starts with and is a part of the game that will be getting frequent updates. The Thieve's and Dark Brotherhood skill lines are already known to be in the works for addition pretty quickly after launch. There will be new weapons and possibly even new classes at some point.
And the lines themselves have room for tweaks: currently there's no choice to make with base active skills. It's only the morph that gives you a choice. They could easily add "either / or" choices for some acitves when they first unlock and even more easily morph the morphs.
And if you;re not seeing much variety you're not paying attention to the World (soul, Vampire, Werewolf) skills, Guild (Mage's, Fighter's, Undaunted) skills or Aliiance (support and assault) skills... variety is what those 8 skill lines are all about.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
AFAIR, in most MMOs:
- you are 'given' the vast majority of your skills on level up... I didn't pick 'normal attack IV' or 'heals 0.2 health more than that other one III'.
- a large number of skills have no need to exist. shift-ctrl-3 is 'call horse', alt-ctrl-6 is 'recall to town', shift-ctrl-alt-escape-backslash-5 is one of my 24-minute buffs...
- skills duplicate each other. You often find yourself with 3 different attacks that do the same thing, just named differently, assigned to a different button. Mostly you spam A, and if that's on cooldown you spam B instead. If you have a programmable keyboard/macro system then you work out how to avoid getting RSI.
SWTOR was probably the breaking point for me - a keyboard with half the keys mapped, and yet there was only a handful of 'options' represented in those keys - the 'skill' was trying to work out which button wasn't on cooldown. (STO was another example of 'lol, need more keys').
Whilst ESO is undoubtedly designed in this manner for consoles, I like it.
It has very little to do with balancing. PC mmo players are use to having a wide range of skills for their weapon/class. Whether this has been a caster, melee dps, tank. healer, support or whatever. Game developers have had to balance classes for years that use multi-layer skill bars.
Sure people will say - "that class was op back in [insert game here] until it got nerfed" That's pretty standard for an mmo and will continue - even with this game/wildstar/eqn as the devs monitor any balance issues.
The criteria is not balance, it's the limitations of a controller. They dress it up with the "now players have to make a choice which skills to use - you know what? - We did before. Your character had a wide range of skills to use at any one time - but so did your opposition.
One of the few games (not the only one) to actively separate the two input methods is ffxiv.
Take a quick look at this, and click on "mouse and keyboard" & "gamepad" to see the differences.
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/win/manual/
Unfortunately if the devs just try for one all encompassing interface, then it comes down to the lowest common denominator - in this case the limited sophistication of the controller - ok for super mario, but not for a comprehensive range of active skills.
Nonsense...
If there would be more skills, it would be harder to controll with a console controller...
Not that the combat is bad with just those 5 skills, its really fun, but ballance is not a reason for this decision.
Personally i would have loved to see a few more active skills on the bars, eight skills and two ultimate skills, for each weapon... because having a realtime choice (also for ultimates) is allways good..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)