why devs dont like open world pvp ? almost all new/old games are with arena pvp
for me is pvp arena boring
enjoyed a lot of more with open world pvp (Lineage 2 / A rcheage)
Hope any good game coming soon with open world pvp / pk
Western gamers still haven't evolved yet... its quite disgusting.
Still fighing to the brink of death on the main roads with their best gear in pvp areas? Then when somebody does the inevitable they quit and blame OWpvp. There are precautionary measures one could take to minimize unfavorable situations like staying off the main roads, don't wear anything you can't make yourself and bank often.
This is all common sense however the majority of the games today softened that part of the mind. When you leave your world where all the horrible things in life are stopped by game Design/Rulesets and enter another world where there are none, you shout "Griefer and Troll" when they are merely just "Opportunist".
So continue to let the actions of others dictate what games you play.
Forcing players to fight with "open world" pvp is not the path to broad scale mmog success.Giving players a choice...to pve or fight is part of the answer.Giving players a faction to be part of is another key element.
ESO has these elements...that is why it will endure....like its predecessor 12 year old DAOC.
Originally posted by funyahns Because it only takes a handful of idiots to drive off paying customers.
This Exactly.
It always ends up being, lets get a couple max level players and go kill people in the starter zones. These people should be banned permanently.
There is a very easy way to avoid gangs, it is called Personal killing penalty. There was no high level gangs in Lineage 2. In fact there was other limitations too, like PvP level gap penalty, so it was impossible high levels to attack low level players. It depends on devs to make open PvP good experience for all. And in fact it gives more fun than arenas. You can fight for spot, raid boss, loot or in guild wars, so it makes PvP something funny, not like repetitive arena grind. But most casual RPG players who play MMOs are afraid from open world PvP. I know such farmers, they don't like competition and PvP. So there is players for every game. But arenas are really stupid, better devs to make game with no PvP, than such with arenas.
When L2 had their new starter island, I saw high levels that managed to find spots where they could gank. They would just wait in the quest area in low level gear then hit a macro that changed their gear and chained attacks. The low level gear made it look like an equal level character who wanted to fight but when you hit them back...
I don't think people who mostly like pve are afraid. I think it's because quest areas tend to get camped by higher level pvp players. Who wants to go to a quest spot where you know you will die 6 or 7 times in a row before you complete the quest. If people complain about it on forums other members tell them too bad and just find another game to play, so they leave and the game's population drops.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I hate open world PvP in MMOs. With. A. Passion. Horrible, burning passion.
Reason number 1? It's boring. I find it terribly boring. Even when I'm good at it in a particular game, which is about a 50/50 given any game, I find it just droll. "Grab gear, roll out, roll faces/get rolled, rinse repeat." Boooorinnnng. All day every day, it's just "Hey, you wanna go get some fights? I'm bored." "Sure, let's go find someone to fight." Inevitably, you roll out with a few dudes, you get into a fight or few, maybe get some good drops, maybe lose your stuff. Ah well, ya banked already so it's ok. Nothing big lost. Or, they did, so you didn't get anything spectacular. Either way, you lost travel time and inevitably you WILL find someone(s) who're gonna stomp your face in just for being in-game and nearby. Day in, day out. Blah.
What they need to put in, is some kind of system where people have to work together, despite probably being completely anonymous, and operate as a team against a foe that very well has the potential to roflstomp all of you if there's even one or two idiots in the assembled tag-team of folks present. And there -inevitably- is. Chaos save you if they've never even done anything like this before. So, there you are, with a team of people you barely know, or maybe people you're well familiar with, facing down a 25 foot tall, fire and lightning breathing, swords-for-claws having, ground-shakes-with-every-step monster. Not some goblin. Not some pittance warrior in gear he brought from home. Not 12 of them. This is a fucking dragon. Fucking. DRAGON. You and your buds have just murdered, trap-dodged-and-disarmed, looted and pillaged all the way through the entrance to this thing's lair. And ya made a LOT of noise doin' it.
So, it's awake. And a little miffed. You and your wee group of swords, shields, staves, and knives get to find a way to contend with this thing. Cause the tunnel you came in collapsed behind you, so you don't have an option but forward. So yeah, big angry monster of myth and legend in front of you, your rag-tag team beside you, and a whole lot of nothing else imperative to do. You know that this thing hordes treasure, it's why you rolled up in the first place. You know the only way you and your team get to get that treasure is to put this killing-machine down. It's probably got an escape plan, cause there's no way it was getting out of the door you all came in, so it's also standing between you and escape. Whatcha gonna do? Roll up your sleeves, and put in some work. There's a very good chance you and your buds are about to get burnt to a crisp, but hey, you're well aware of what profession you left home to pursue.
There's your difference. PvP vs PvE in the eyes of a self-described PvP hater.
People talk in extremes... There are various gradients to this issue. There is general open world PvP Examples:
DAoC
WoW (PvP server)
Age of Conan (PvP Server)
Then there are the FFA PvP (no loot)
EQ2 (PvP server)
This was DAoC Andred/Mordred
Age of Conan (FFA ruleset)
Then there are the FFA PvP Take all your shit
Ultima Online (pre tram)
Shadowbane
Darkfall
Mortal Online
Albion Online (soon)
I personally feel that anytime that there are (versus) factions involved in a game there should be open world PvP... I am not really talking in the FFA or FFA (take your shit) sense... But If I am the Blue Faction and you are the Red Faction and we are enemies it should be kill or be killed... I mean you spend the most part of your early gaming life playing on "your side of the tracks" and then some game mechanic, be it a quest, exploration, or just good old fashioned looking for trouble, takes you into enemy territory, you should be in danger...
Call me crazy but vanilla WOW did this very well... Whether you were alliance or horde you eventually crossed paths in the open world and there was usually a stand off.
Today players who have never been spanked and who received an award ribbon just for participating who have been told by their parents that they are a unique snowflake and so pumped full of this delusion and the PvE game (for the most part is easy (especially with all the mods telling players what to do)), the first time these players meet an opposite faction and they get killed it is almost as if they are contacting their lawyer for post traumatic stress disorder.
I enjoy open world PvP.... not this sanitized, homogenized, "everyone is the same", normalized excuse for PvP today... Everything is instanced... You see your enemy in the open world and just wave and move on...
Battlegrounds? = vs = ... oh one player dropped? it is cancelled. Such shit... This style of game play is what spawed MOBA's... If everyone wants to be exactly the same in PvP, play a FPS
ESO has the closest feeling to the old school open PvP, however it too is plagued with the homogenization of making everyone the same via bolstering... Even more frustrating is part of the "end game" is adventuring in the enemy faction areas (the + levels) and you will not be able to kill or be killed. Which was part of the charm and thrill of DAoC.
People hear open world PvP and they automatically gravitate to the worst of it... and picture pimple faced virgins laughing on their corpse and killing them over and over and taking their shit... Or somehow tarnishing their illusions that mom always told them they were special and always a winner! I just don't get it... Win some... lose some... If someone ambushes me and gets the upper hand while I'm out picking twigs n berries and slappin rabbits around for pelts... Awesome! If I could give that player a thumbs up I would... That to bme is part of the thrill when out in the wild slappin rabbits around and picking weeds...
I pay that these elements are intact for when games like The Repopulation, Pathfinder, EQ:N, and other would be sandboxes start to surface toward the end of the year... In the mean time hopefully ESO's watered down open PvP will keep my intrigued
Originally posted by funyahns Because it only takes a handful of idiots to drive off paying customers.
This sums it up nicely.
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Back to the main topic. I love open world PvP that means something. I hate open world pvp for the sake of having it. This is why I like ESO so much. When I'm in the mood for PvP, I go to Cyrodill. I have huge open spaces giving me the feel of open world pvp, with actual objectives to fight over and consequences for winning and loosing the battles.
Conversely, if I don't feel like PvPing, I can go back to the PvE area and can progress my character without worrying about being ganked repeatedly by a guy 20 levels higher than me.
Originally posted by Tissmogi
Originally posted by funyahns Because it only takes a handful of idiots to drive off paying customers.
^this
If they want pvp they can go play CoD or BF4. There is no need for PvP in a MMORPG we have PvP games for that.
Bull. I like both PvP and PvE I like the fact that I can do all of it in one game. I don't want to go play CoD or BF4. But I like games that separate the two like ESO so folks like you don't have anything to whine about when it comes to PvP.
why devs dont like open world pvp ? almost all new/old games are with arena pvp
for me is pvp arena boring
enjoyed a lot of more with open world pvp (Lineage 2 / A rcheage)
Hope any good game coming soon with open world pvp / pk
Western gamers still haven't evolved yet... its quite disgusting.
Still fighing to the brink of death on the main roads with their best gear in pvp areas? Then when somebody does the inevitable they quit and blame OWpvp. There are precautionary measures one could take to minimize unfavorable situations like staying off the main roads, don't wear anything you can't make yourself and bank often.
This is all common sense however the majority of the games today softened that part of the mind. When you leave your world where all the horrible things in life are stopped by game Design/Rulesets and enter another world where there are none, you shout "Griefer and Troll" when they are merely just "Opportunist".
So continue to let the actions of others dictate what games you play.
Ah yes all the While the Pvper has gear that gives him the advange +12 hackmaster +30 plate and boots of speed and the shield of Zues and filed of Defence -30 all damage. While you have +0 chain and a+1 longsword fair fight yeah Right!
Because it's a video game, and any activity that is non-consensual is non enjoyable. It's really not that hard to figure out, it's pretty much a given that human beings detest being forced to do anything. Why would we find joy in being forced to do something we don't want to in something that is supposed to be for fun and entertainment? There is no thrill of victory in ganking people that don't even want to fight me in a video game, if you enjoy ruining other people's experience so much, I recommend a good therapist. They work wonders for the mentally unstable.
It's really quite simple, why give a person the ability to mess with other people who are going about their business? Best leave the person to his Battlefield 4 so he can rage at people who want to be killed repeatedly.
P.S. Not a PvE only player. Actually, I prefer PvP over any PvE content any day, so any care bear comments are unnecessary.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Originally posted by funyahns Because it only takes a handful of idiots to drive off paying customers.
They are like poison.
A half a teaspoon of snake venom can wreck a lot of havoc on a 240 lb man. Add in the popular free client, multiple account game models and it's a disaster waiting to happen.
Anyone remember the virgin years of the internet when Yahoo chat was the flavor of the day? 5 or 10 people would be in a chat room for a half hour or so and without fail, the spammers would arrive and force everyone out of the chat, break the moment up. It was deliberate, static traffic isn't traffic and the flaw in FFA is that other companies can shill crash your static user base with a little destruction. People happy in a game world are no longer potential customers.
Seems you never played in open world PvP, but have opinion, and even bold position for it. In RPG PvE is cool, in MMO, PvE is boring action for people with a lot of free time. Killing the same mobs over and over again, doing almost equal quests, repetitive actions with no meaning, and many people call them fun!? But fighting vs opponents who are equal or even better than you for their gear, spot, raid boss loot, or in guild war, is not fun!? And there is "criminal" system in most games with open world PvP, it is called PK.
Yes, do tell me of the criminal system of EVE Online and how effective it is. Or better yet, tell that to my transporter ship carrying items for over 1 billion of isk and got 1-shotted while trying to warp off of a gate with shields on and hull upgrades on.
Or the one in Aion...
Or what's stopping you from flipping the flag, making urself a target in a low level area in TERA Online and butcher everything that moves? The answer is nothing. The only game with somewhat viable punishment is Lineage 2. It is the only one that is done right. And lets face it, even that wasn't enough to keep certain jerks from making Pk alts and logging them off at specific locations just so they could switch and Pk whoever is in their way. You've done it, I've done it ... its obvious that this system does not work.
Humans tend to move past the point of needing consequences to determine their behavior at an early age. Like three or four years old. There are variations for other cultures, but at some point, children go from only doing or not doing something because of the consequences to doing or not doing something because they agree with the rules. The consequences can certainly define the rules but people will either follow the rules or not. By the time someone is old enough to play MMORPGs, their thinking is more complex than, "I'll turn red if I do this, I shall not do this".
If the developer doesn't want players to do something, they won't be able to do it. If a game allows something, then the developer wants the player to do it. It really is that simple. The simplistic consequences are there to enhance the PvP, not stop it or curtail it because that doesn't work.
I think the division between players is in whether or not the player can choose to "flag" for PvP while playing the game, or whether or not their "flag" is always on. I think developers know this, and build their games accordingly. In games where PvP is a choice, none of those consequences are necessary. Players are rewarded for their PvP activities. In games where PvP is "always on", there are consequences to make the PvP more interesting. The consequences are a reward, just as much as the loot is.
Developers don't hate one or the other, even though players might. Developers only have to decide which one is the one they want to build a game for, and if so, what variations of what they are building are they going to put into their game. Whichever path they choose, they will alienate players from the other path.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
i love it and like some have said allready it's weird if you play a game with 2 or more factions that are in war with eachother and you dont want to pursue that when you meet an opposing player. not saying you have to attack everyone you see but if the option aint even there it's just weird.
also i think people take it way too personal when they happen to get ganked and then that is all they can think about everytime owpvp gets mentioned.
but if they'd ever experienced the satisfaction in slapping someone silly who jumps you or the results that can come from you and a gang of friends provoke an all out war they might think differently.
just dont mix pve players and pvp players on the same servers.
Because it's a video game, and any activity that is non-consensual is non enjoyable. It's really not that hard to figure out, it's pretty much a given that human beings detest being forced to do anything.
Yeah, well, except for the fact that if you sign up for a game that tells you there will be non consensual PvP on the box... Then by definition it becomes consensual. So no.
Almost all complaints and fears are about gankers on low level players, which is the easiest thing to prevent in any game... This shows the amount of thought PvE people put into denigrating "open world PvP": none.
why devs dont like open world pvp ? almost all new/old games are with arena pvp
for me is pvp arena boring
enjoyed a lot of more with open world pvp (Lineage 2 / A rcheage)
Hope any good game coming soon with open world pvp / pk
There are different reasons. At least why devs don't like open world pvp. For the players.. well some just don't like it.. some just can't deal with get beaten from a real player, or just don't like competition, or whatever else reason is.... but
1. Some players don't like to pvp.
1.1 So Deverlopers though, ok, some don't like it so make it optional.. please both crowds. This lead to arenas and battlegrounds. But about what they did not thought was that some pvp player don't like such a pvp-light experience.
2. There is the old thinking that pve is more popular, does attract more players, or that there are not enough pvp playeres to justify a pvp mmo with AAA budget. There are different reasons for that
2.1 pvp only games in the past did not that well (UO lost vs. EQ, Shadowbane never got more than 100k subs, Darkfall more or less the same story, and so on and so forth)
2.1.1 Reason for this could be that those games(Shadowbane, Darkfall and other) were badly executed Indy games with alot of other problems beside PvP.
2.1.2 UO was 2D, EQ was 3D
2.1.3 PvE was actually more interesting and more people liked to play PvE
2.2 In games with PvE and PvP servers usually the amount of PvE server is higher
2.2.1 Because PvP servers were basicly the same game with PvP flag on, no whatsoever PvP content, no meaning for PvP..
2.2.2 Additionally often Themepark games with gear grinding, heavy vertical progression, which both is not really favorable for a pvp game
3. PvP games were/are the new thing. In the past you got single player games, maybe with some multiplayer, but just limited because of technical limitation. There was no game in the past where thousands of players could play against each other, not in computer games history, nor in any other game.
3.1 So noone knows how to build a pvp game with mass pvp
3.2 Noone knows how attractive it may be to have a mass pvp game done right. (uncharted territory)
3.3 PvP was meant to play the exact same game as single player.. noone knew what pvp content is(games like BF and other just invented pvp only games and tried out new modes... but there are just very few and simpilistic, like Caputere the Flag, Domination, Conquer(BF), RvR(DAoC), Death Match, MOBA. Almost all those modes have something in common, they are rather simple, and they are designed for just a few players.(except RvR)
The bottom line is that there have to be a major success that the masses flock to mass pvp games. And there have to be some "indy" developer to try out new mass pvp content, new possiblilities to mass pvp, and be extremely unexpected successful with it, that mass pvp games become really successful.
Yeap.. games like DayZ, and partially EvE will convince some Developers to try it out, and maybe to enhance it somewhat.. and there are some "indy" games in development.. but up to now there was no major success, no major breaking point in the mass pvp market.
But at least nowadays almost any deverloper knows that pvp is a highly, successful mass market, because of games like BF, like MOBAs and like DayZ.. now we just need a few good, and working mass pvp formulas.
If the developer doesn't want players to do something, they won't be able to do it. If a game allows something, then the developer wants the player to do it. It really is that simple. The simplistic consequences are there to enhance the PvP, not stop it or curtail it because that doesn't work.
This is false. In WoW for example, while you are allowed to kill someone repeatedly and follow them wherever they go for days/weeks, they can raise a complaint about it and this can be considered harassment and you will get punished for it.
Also you can insult other players religion, sex, sexual preferences and skin color in game. You are able to do it, but then again the team is obviously going to react to this.
Lol this debate just spins in ignorant circles and goes nowhere.
The real question is with the creation of extremely competent and advanced ai what are you going to do when the npcs start greifing and ganking you? Wake up, the time of the loot pinatas is over.
Very few open world pvp games have ever had proper systems in place to ensure a balanced ecosystem of players and the vital interdependencies that are created between players of all types when these systems are effective.
Quite a few games in development are attempting to build effective systems to allow players equal footing to enjoy "worlds" not linear on the rails storytelling static content.
This is just one I am participating in to help make it the quality needed to overcome whiny debates against open world pvp and an enjoyable experience for the majority of gamers.
Some posts have been made in the Life is Feudal forums and they are from griefer types and they are whining like carebears because this game is putting in systems that make "everyone" accountable for their actions. Hearing them whine is priceless trust me.
I don't believe it is a big deal to kill a player in game and take their loot, but it can be extremely frustrating to be on the receiving end. As pointed out by many open world PvPers don't usually look for an equal opponent. They usually gang up on the weak. The main problem is not many PvE players will put up with it. Since they are entering the game willingly they can also leave the game willingly. I haven't played an open world PvP games since Ultima Online. I love to have some competition with other players in game, but I don't enjoy working hours to gather items/materials and crafting only to be ganked by a group of players or a player built only to PvP and having it all taken away in a few seconds. This kind of thing can be fun if there isn't much time investment in the PvE portion of things.
People don't like PvP because it breaks the illusion that you are the great hero of the realm when a little rogue character drops your champion of light in under 5 seconds. This is a problem of the story driven, theme park genre of MMOs. Stop telling everyone they are your perfect snowflake and that the way that they choose is the way of a legendary hero. Somewhere down the line MMO became synonymous with story time and brought in all these soft players and now the genre is garbage.... IMO.
The problem with open world pvp is greifing. There are no successful modern games with open world pvp because of this. You alienate a massive percentage of people who love rpgs and want to play online.
There are people who are genetically gifted for pvp, and when you combine that with obsessive practice you build a murdering machine that hardly anyone can compete against. While it is fun to be the elite few who can reach this status, it is not a reality for 99% of players.
There will never be a hugely successful game that has open world pvp. Never. Even pvpers get sick of getting destroyed all the time.
I would also like to say that rogues are bullshit in all games. Being able to sneak invisibly around under players is fucking dumb. Melee classes need a massive boosts vs. Mages and Rogues in all games. If you play a rogue you are a little turd.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I don't believe it is a big deal to kill a player in game and take their loot, but it can be extremely frustrating to be on the receiving end. As pointed out by many open world PvPers don't usually look for an equal opponent. They usually gang up on the weak. The main problem is not many PvE players will put up with it. Since they are entering the game willingly they can also leave the game willingly. I haven't played an open world PvP games since Ultima Online. I love to have some competition with other players in game, but I don't enjoy working hours to gather items/materials and crafting only to be ganked by a group of players or a player built only to PvP and having it all taken away in a few seconds. This kind of thing can be fun if there isn't much time investment in the PvE portion of things.
Well in a full or partial loot Opvp type of game, gear must be made to be fairly easy to aquire, but also have a much less impact on player power than say in WoW.
For me, world pvp is an added bonus on top of arena pvp. For some reason, that feeling of choosing to go in to pvp with other like minded people who are willing to pvp (because they are there) makes it that much better and I enjoy it a lot.
It's all a personal preference, but for me I love world PvP. It doesn't have to be a FFA lose everything when you die, but something like EQ2 or Vanilla WOW minus the BG's.
I find BG's, Arena's and or anything that is instanced PvP that separates us from the PvE world to be immersion breaking and quite frankly not fun for ME. There's something about havin to watch your back when questing that gives me excitement.
If the developer doesn't want players to do something, they won't be able to do it. If a game allows something, then the developer wants the player to do it. It really is that simple. The simplistic consequences are there to enhance the PvP, not stop it or curtail it because that doesn't work.
This is false. In WoW for example, while you are allowed to kill someone repeatedly and follow them wherever they go for days/weeks, they can raise a complaint about it and this can be considered harassment and you will get punished for it.
Also you can insult other players religion, sex, sexual preferences and skin color in game. You are able to do it, but then again the team is obviously going to react to this.
So no.
If the developer doesn't want the player doing something, then the developer will stop them. They can either make it impossible by banning the player. You just gave two examples of the developer stopping the player from doing something they don't want the player to do.
Any in-game consequences for doing something are there to enhance the experience, not curb the behavior.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Western gamers still haven't evolved yet... its quite disgusting.
Still fighing to the brink of death on the main roads with their best gear in pvp areas? Then when somebody does the inevitable they quit and blame OWpvp. There are precautionary measures one could take to minimize unfavorable situations like staying off the main roads, don't wear anything you can't make yourself and bank often.
This is all common sense however the majority of the games today softened that part of the mind. When you leave your world where all the horrible things in life are stopped by game Design/Rulesets and enter another world where there are none, you shout "Griefer and Troll" when they are merely just "Opportunist".
So continue to let the actions of others dictate what games you play.
Forcing players to fight with "open world" pvp is not the path to broad scale mmog success.Giving players a choice...to pve or fight is part of the answer.Giving players a faction to be part of is another key element.
ESO has these elements...that is why it will endure....like its predecessor 12 year old DAOC.
Low level ganking driving off new players and mass zergs that destabilize the servers. What's not to love about that ?
They probably moved away from it because as much as people loved to talk about it very little good came from it and even fewer actually did it.
When L2 had their new starter island, I saw high levels that managed to find spots where they could gank. They would just wait in the quest area in low level gear then hit a macro that changed their gear and chained attacks. The low level gear made it look like an equal level character who wanted to fight but when you hit them back...
I don't think people who mostly like pve are afraid. I think it's because quest areas tend to get camped by higher level pvp players. Who wants to go to a quest spot where you know you will die 6 or 7 times in a row before you complete the quest. If people complain about it on forums other members tell them too bad and just find another game to play, so they leave and the game's population drops.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I hate open world PvP in MMOs. With. A. Passion. Horrible, burning passion.
Reason number 1? It's boring. I find it terribly boring. Even when I'm good at it in a particular game, which is about a 50/50 given any game, I find it just droll. "Grab gear, roll out, roll faces/get rolled, rinse repeat." Boooorinnnng. All day every day, it's just "Hey, you wanna go get some fights? I'm bored." "Sure, let's go find someone to fight." Inevitably, you roll out with a few dudes, you get into a fight or few, maybe get some good drops, maybe lose your stuff. Ah well, ya banked already so it's ok. Nothing big lost. Or, they did, so you didn't get anything spectacular. Either way, you lost travel time and inevitably you WILL find someone(s) who're gonna stomp your face in just for being in-game and nearby. Day in, day out. Blah.
What they need to put in, is some kind of system where people have to work together, despite probably being completely anonymous, and operate as a team against a foe that very well has the potential to roflstomp all of you if there's even one or two idiots in the assembled tag-team of folks present. And there -inevitably- is. Chaos save you if they've never even done anything like this before. So, there you are, with a team of people you barely know, or maybe people you're well familiar with, facing down a 25 foot tall, fire and lightning breathing, swords-for-claws having, ground-shakes-with-every-step monster. Not some goblin. Not some pittance warrior in gear he brought from home. Not 12 of them. This is a fucking dragon. Fucking. DRAGON. You and your buds have just murdered, trap-dodged-and-disarmed, looted and pillaged all the way through the entrance to this thing's lair. And ya made a LOT of noise doin' it.
So, it's awake. And a little miffed. You and your wee group of swords, shields, staves, and knives get to find a way to contend with this thing. Cause the tunnel you came in collapsed behind you, so you don't have an option but forward. So yeah, big angry monster of myth and legend in front of you, your rag-tag team beside you, and a whole lot of nothing else imperative to do. You know that this thing hordes treasure, it's why you rolled up in the first place. You know the only way you and your team get to get that treasure is to put this killing-machine down. It's probably got an escape plan, cause there's no way it was getting out of the door you all came in, so it's also standing between you and escape. Whatcha gonna do? Roll up your sleeves, and put in some work. There's a very good chance you and your buds are about to get burnt to a crisp, but hey, you're well aware of what profession you left home to pursue.
There's your difference. PvP vs PvE in the eyes of a self-described PvP hater.
People talk in extremes... There are various gradients to this issue. There is general open world PvP Examples:
DAoC
WoW (PvP server)
Age of Conan (PvP Server)
Then there are the FFA PvP (no loot)
EQ2 (PvP server)
This was DAoC Andred/Mordred
Age of Conan (FFA ruleset)
Then there are the FFA PvP Take all your shit
Ultima Online (pre tram)
Shadowbane
Darkfall
Mortal Online
Albion Online (soon)
I personally feel that anytime that there are (versus) factions involved in a game there should be open world PvP... I am not really talking in the FFA or FFA (take your shit) sense... But If I am the Blue Faction and you are the Red Faction and we are enemies it should be kill or be killed... I mean you spend the most part of your early gaming life playing on "your side of the tracks" and then some game mechanic, be it a quest, exploration, or just good old fashioned looking for trouble, takes you into enemy territory, you should be in danger...
Call me crazy but vanilla WOW did this very well... Whether you were alliance or horde you eventually crossed paths in the open world and there was usually a stand off.
Today players who have never been spanked and who received an award ribbon just for participating who have been told by their parents that they are a unique snowflake and so pumped full of this delusion and the PvE game (for the most part is easy (especially with all the mods telling players what to do)), the first time these players meet an opposite faction and they get killed it is almost as if they are contacting their lawyer for post traumatic stress disorder.
I enjoy open world PvP.... not this sanitized, homogenized, "everyone is the same", normalized excuse for PvP today... Everything is instanced... You see your enemy in the open world and just wave and move on...
Battlegrounds? = vs = ... oh one player dropped? it is cancelled. Such shit... This style of game play is what spawed MOBA's... If everyone wants to be exactly the same in PvP, play a FPS
ESO has the closest feeling to the old school open PvP, however it too is plagued with the homogenization of making everyone the same via bolstering... Even more frustrating is part of the "end game" is adventuring in the enemy faction areas (the + levels) and you will not be able to kill or be killed. Which was part of the charm and thrill of DAoC.
People hear open world PvP and they automatically gravitate to the worst of it... and picture pimple faced virgins laughing on their corpse and killing them over and over and taking their shit... Or somehow tarnishing their illusions that mom always told them they were special and always a winner! I just don't get it... Win some... lose some... If someone ambushes me and gets the upper hand while I'm out picking twigs n berries and slappin rabbits around for pelts... Awesome! If I could give that player a thumbs up I would... That to bme is part of the thrill when out in the wild slappin rabbits around and picking weeds...
I pay that these elements are intact for when games like The Repopulation, Pathfinder, EQ:N, and other would be sandboxes start to surface toward the end of the year... In the mean time hopefully ESO's watered down open PvP will keep my intrigued
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
[mod edit]
Back to the main topic. I love open world PvP that means something. I hate open world pvp for the sake of having it. This is why I like ESO so much. When I'm in the mood for PvP, I go to Cyrodill. I have huge open spaces giving me the feel of open world pvp, with actual objectives to fight over and consequences for winning and loosing the battles.
Conversely, if I don't feel like PvPing, I can go back to the PvE area and can progress my character without worrying about being ganked repeatedly by a guy 20 levels higher than me.
Bull. I like both PvP and PvE I like the fact that I can do all of it in one game. I don't want to go play CoD or BF4. But I like games that separate the two like ESO so folks like you don't have anything to whine about when it comes to PvP.Because it's a video game, and any activity that is non-consensual is non enjoyable. It's really not that hard to figure out, it's pretty much a given that human beings detest being forced to do anything. Why would we find joy in being forced to do something we don't want to in something that is supposed to be for fun and entertainment? There is no thrill of victory in ganking people that don't even want to fight me in a video game, if you enjoy ruining other people's experience so much, I recommend a good therapist. They work wonders for the mentally unstable.
It's really quite simple, why give a person the ability to mess with other people who are going about their business? Best leave the person to his Battlefield 4 so he can rage at people who want to be killed repeatedly.
P.S. Not a PvE only player. Actually, I prefer PvP over any PvE content any day, so any care bear comments are unnecessary.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
They are like poison.
A half a teaspoon of snake venom can wreck a lot of havoc on a 240 lb man. Add in the popular free client, multiple account game models and it's a disaster waiting to happen.
Anyone remember the virgin years of the internet when Yahoo chat was the flavor of the day? 5 or 10 people would be in a chat room for a half hour or so and without fail, the spammers would arrive and force everyone out of the chat, break the moment up. It was deliberate, static traffic isn't traffic and the flaw in FFA is that other companies can shill crash your static user base with a little destruction. People happy in a game world are no longer potential customers.
I doubt devs apply their own preferences. They just respond to the market.
And there is no reason why players should like open world pvp. It is less controlled. Less fair. Less convenient.
There is a reason why e-sport type pvp (MOBA, WoT) is so popular.
In the end, life doesn't care that you got camped 15 years ago in UO.
Times have changed.
Humans tend to move past the point of needing consequences to determine their behavior at an early age. Like three or four years old. There are variations for other cultures, but at some point, children go from only doing or not doing something because of the consequences to doing or not doing something because they agree with the rules. The consequences can certainly define the rules but people will either follow the rules or not. By the time someone is old enough to play MMORPGs, their thinking is more complex than, "I'll turn red if I do this, I shall not do this".
If the developer doesn't want players to do something, they won't be able to do it. If a game allows something, then the developer wants the player to do it. It really is that simple. The simplistic consequences are there to enhance the PvP, not stop it or curtail it because that doesn't work.
I think the division between players is in whether or not the player can choose to "flag" for PvP while playing the game, or whether or not their "flag" is always on. I think developers know this, and build their games accordingly. In games where PvP is a choice, none of those consequences are necessary. Players are rewarded for their PvP activities. In games where PvP is "always on", there are consequences to make the PvP more interesting. The consequences are a reward, just as much as the loot is.
Developers don't hate one or the other, even though players might. Developers only have to decide which one is the one they want to build a game for, and if so, what variations of what they are building are they going to put into their game. Whichever path they choose, they will alienate players from the other path.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
i love it and like some have said allready it's weird if you play a game with 2 or more factions that are in war with eachother and you dont want to pursue that when you meet an opposing player. not saying you have to attack everyone you see but if the option aint even there it's just weird.
also i think people take it way too personal when they happen to get ganked and then that is all they can think about everytime owpvp gets mentioned.
but if they'd ever experienced the satisfaction in slapping someone silly who jumps you or the results that can come from you and a gang of friends provoke an all out war they might think differently.
just dont mix pve players and pvp players on the same servers.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Yeah, well, except for the fact that if you sign up for a game that tells you there will be non consensual PvP on the box... Then by definition it becomes consensual. So no.
Almost all complaints and fears are about gankers on low level players, which is the easiest thing to prevent in any game... This shows the amount of thought PvE people put into denigrating "open world PvP": none.
There are different reasons. At least why devs don't like open world pvp. For the players.. well some just don't like it.. some just can't deal with get beaten from a real player, or just don't like competition, or whatever else reason is.... but
1. Some players don't like to pvp.
1.1 So Deverlopers though, ok, some don't like it so make it optional.. please both crowds. This lead to arenas and battlegrounds. But about what they did not thought was that some pvp player don't like such a pvp-light experience.
2. There is the old thinking that pve is more popular, does attract more players, or that there are not enough pvp playeres to justify a pvp mmo with AAA budget. There are different reasons for that
2.1 pvp only games in the past did not that well (UO lost vs. EQ, Shadowbane never got more than 100k subs, Darkfall more or less the same story, and so on and so forth)
2.1.1 Reason for this could be that those games(Shadowbane, Darkfall and other) were badly executed Indy games with alot of other problems beside PvP.
2.1.2 UO was 2D, EQ was 3D
2.1.3 PvE was actually more interesting and more people liked to play PvE
2.2 In games with PvE and PvP servers usually the amount of PvE server is higher
2.2.1 Because PvP servers were basicly the same game with PvP flag on, no whatsoever PvP content, no meaning for PvP..
2.2.2 Additionally often Themepark games with gear grinding, heavy vertical progression, which both is not really favorable for a pvp game
3. PvP games were/are the new thing. In the past you got single player games, maybe with some multiplayer, but just limited because of technical limitation. There was no game in the past where thousands of players could play against each other, not in computer games history, nor in any other game.
3.1 So noone knows how to build a pvp game with mass pvp
3.2 Noone knows how attractive it may be to have a mass pvp game done right. (uncharted territory)
3.3 PvP was meant to play the exact same game as single player.. noone knew what pvp content is(games like BF and other just invented pvp only games and tried out new modes... but there are just very few and simpilistic, like Caputere the Flag, Domination, Conquer(BF), RvR(DAoC), Death Match, MOBA. Almost all those modes have something in common, they are rather simple, and they are designed for just a few players.(except RvR)
The bottom line is that there have to be a major success that the masses flock to mass pvp games. And there have to be some "indy" developer to try out new mass pvp content, new possiblilities to mass pvp, and be extremely unexpected successful with it, that mass pvp games become really successful.
Yeap.. games like DayZ, and partially EvE will convince some Developers to try it out, and maybe to enhance it somewhat.. and there are some "indy" games in development.. but up to now there was no major success, no major breaking point in the mass pvp market.
But at least nowadays almost any deverloper knows that pvp is a highly, successful mass market, because of games like BF, like MOBAs and like DayZ.. now we just need a few good, and working mass pvp formulas.
This is false. In WoW for example, while you are allowed to kill someone repeatedly and follow them wherever they go for days/weeks, they can raise a complaint about it and this can be considered harassment and you will get punished for it.
Also you can insult other players religion, sex, sexual preferences and skin color in game. You are able to do it, but then again the team is obviously going to react to this.
So no.
Lol this debate just spins in ignorant circles and goes nowhere.
The real question is with the creation of extremely competent and advanced ai what are you going to do when the npcs start greifing and ganking you? Wake up, the time of the loot pinatas is over.
Very few open world pvp games have ever had proper systems in place to ensure a balanced ecosystem of players and the vital interdependencies that are created between players of all types when these systems are effective.
Quite a few games in development are attempting to build effective systems to allow players equal footing to enjoy "worlds" not linear on the rails storytelling static content.
This is just one I am participating in to help make it the quality needed to overcome whiny debates against open world pvp and an enjoyable experience for the majority of gamers.
http://lifeisfeudal.com/
Some posts have been made in the Life is Feudal forums and they are from griefer types and they are whining like carebears because this game is putting in systems that make "everyone" accountable for their actions. Hearing them whine is priceless trust me.
Life IS Feudal
The problem with open world pvp is greifing. There are no successful modern games with open world pvp because of this. You alienate a massive percentage of people who love rpgs and want to play online.
There are people who are genetically gifted for pvp, and when you combine that with obsessive practice you build a murdering machine that hardly anyone can compete against. While it is fun to be the elite few who can reach this status, it is not a reality for 99% of players.
There will never be a hugely successful game that has open world pvp. Never. Even pvpers get sick of getting destroyed all the time.
I would also like to say that rogues are bullshit in all games. Being able to sneak invisibly around under players is fucking dumb. Melee classes need a massive boosts vs. Mages and Rogues in all games. If you play a rogue you are a little turd.
Well in a full or partial loot Opvp type of game, gear must be made to be fairly easy to aquire, but also have a much less impact on player power than say in WoW.
For me, world pvp is an added bonus on top of arena pvp. For some reason, that feeling of choosing to go in to pvp with other like minded people who are willing to pvp (because they are there) makes it that much better and I enjoy it a lot.
It's all a personal preference, but for me I love world PvP. It doesn't have to be a FFA lose everything when you die, but something like EQ2 or Vanilla WOW minus the BG's.
I find BG's, Arena's and or anything that is instanced PvP that separates us from the PvE world to be immersion breaking and quite frankly not fun for ME. There's something about havin to watch your back when questing that gives me excitement.
If the developer doesn't want the player doing something, then the developer will stop them. They can either make it impossible by banning the player. You just gave two examples of the developer stopping the player from doing something they don't want the player to do.
Any in-game consequences for doing something are there to enhance the experience, not curb the behavior.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.