Yes but sadly one of those two upcoming sub games will contain a cash shop with a pay wall item. The Imperial race.
The ground has been laid for a subscription game, with a F2P cash shop. I will take no part in such a distorted mutation of the subscription model. To pay a sub and be nickel and dimed?!? no way.
This is the true slippery slope to me and the one that I feel will eventually run me out of the genre.
Even though SWTOR considers itself freemium now their model ran me away from a game I enjoyed...
I will not support any game that charges a sub and gates any type of content/fluff/cosmetics behind a paywall.
Just for clarity, I have zero issues at all with a sub game having a cash shop with cosmetics and mounts.
The race is a pay wall item, something you only get with F2P games so there is nothing to stop them from creating new playable races that can only be used if bought via the cash shop. Beyond that, if that makes them a profit, there is nothing to stop XP buffs, armor, crafting materials and every other thing you find in F2P games from being placed in there also.
It's not like WoW, where mounts literally cost pocket change and are restricted in speed by your level and price-walled by training. In WoW's cash shop, you're essentially buying a "skin" - you still have to float 90% of the gold expense in game AND be the appropriate level to ride it. In TESO, you're buying a mount you can start riding as early as you can get in the open. Moreover, mounts "level up" in TESO based on feeding - naturally, those who start with a mount can start feeding it much sooner.
Someone who doesn't get nickel and dimed has to drop 17k Gold before they finally gets a chance to "catch up" with their mount development.
Meanwhile, in PvE, the guy who paid money HAS an XP buff, in the form of faster travel in zone. Meanwhile, in PvP, the guy who paid money can react in World PvP faster, and - if he sees you in transit, he has the choice whether to bypass you by moving quicker, or run you down.
Starting with a mount in this game grants a significant, mechanical advantage. I'm not okay with something like this in a sub model. As you said, that's a free to play cash shop.
Considering what entertainment costs (movies, dinner out, sporting events, etc.) I'm not at all worried about a subscription and even a cash shop with cosmetic items that don't affect game play. That's just me. If I'm enjoying myself then I'm willing to pay for it. Bottom line for me is that there aren't any games I'm really enjoying now and I am going to get my money's worth out of ESO. When I stop getting value for my money I'll move on.
I went out last night, dropped $70 on myself and my date for dinner and drinks and it wasn't a fancy place. I'm pretty sure we've both flushed our share of the $70 with no further enjoyment from that purchase to come. Gaming by all relative measures is pretty cheap and the amount of enjoyment I get from it far exceeds the cost.
link a site up where you read ESO is poised to change its business model down the road. I have been following this game since it was a rumor and i never read that anywhere.
Link a site where you read that ESO is a charity project, and that this is not being done for money.... Changes will be made based on the financial need of the company, and even non gamers (Forbes) can see where this is headed. The reason why people are upset with the box + sub option, is because they dont believe that will work.... leaving them with a F2P game, after they have paid upfront.
link a site up where you read ESO is poised to change its business model down the road. I have been following this game since it was a rumor and i never read that anywhere.
Link a site where you read that ESO is a charity project, and that this is not being done for money.... Changes will be made based on the financial need of the company, and even non gamers (Forbes) can see where this is headed. The reason why people are upset with the box + sub option, is because they dont believe that will work.... leaving them with a F2P game, after they have paid upfront.
It won't be ftp. It will probably be a hybrid like swtor.
So much is made of the WoW's success and so little made of the complete anomaly it is. Take MMOData’s numbers with a grain of salt, but only two Western MMOs have peaked above 1 million active accounts: WoW and SWTOR. So if ESO and Wildstar sell 2mil copies initially and retain about 500k subscribers, that would put them in the upper echelons of Western MMOs. And those happened to be the numbers where SWTOR said they would break even. Every company’s fundamentals are different, but if they are counting on numbers above that to make the game profitable, they are seriously misjudging the market they are about to jump into.
I think any MMO should offer as LOTRO offered in the beginning; Lifetime memberships for $200 ($199) if they really have a project plan to start sub based and move to F2P (or Freemium) some time frame after. Turbine did this and removed the Lifer subs some time after launch (but have used it as a promotional prize from time to time). This way they get a monthly fee of approximately 16 months of sub fees up front from many fanboy players, and when they go F2P, offer those Lifers some bonus for their sub such as LOTRO, a monthly stipend for in-store purchases. I think this keeps many people happy. The Devs get their release box $$ and monthly sub based $$ going for a year +, plus the extra income for the big spenders (box $ + $200), and that will get them 2-3 years of profit + dev costs, then they can go F2P and make $$ from DLC and expansion box $$. Even when I played WoW for 7+ years, when servers went down or when I finally quit WoW (basically due to boredom w/ content), you still have active players (Lifers) that will usually purchase the new box expansion to try out the new content and even spend RL $$ on cosmetic or content items from their store. I actually think Turbine did their release process perfect. And their track record seems to show that the game is still viable even after 7+ years with the exception of the rumors they will lose their LOTR license at some point.
I'm pleased that ff14 has laid the groundwork for the return of subscriptions. Sadly, superman is right that unless ESO or WS do well that they won't switch midway to a cash shop system. That dagger is going to loom over our heads while we play. I remember the whole SWTOR debacle where they were 100% trying to holdout against going f2p until people were fired and heads rolled. I'm quite sick of f2p games and the amount of money they generate from gullible people. So , fingers crossed these games get a lot of support and get to stay p2p.
F2P is a myth when it comes to MMOs. Excluding the few exceptions which are old games and on their way out (Rift), you basically have to pay to enjoy the game to a decent standard. So whether you pay $15 for a "VIP" account, $15 for your monthly pack or $15 for your monthly sub; you're still paying.
The demographic that is content with playing an MMO 100% free for a few hours a week is incredibly small. The majority of people can't resist paying and end up doing so, which means even if they're a "sub hater", they basically just paid a sub to play their game.
SWTOR may be "free" for example but that's only if you're content with incredibly limited content come end game. (Dungeon caps, PvP caps, space mission caps. Which I believe are WEEKLY caps, not daily.)
Sometimes I'm lucky to get 2-3 hours gaming time a week, if any. I'm not going to pay $60 and have a game lock me out after 30 days. I would possibly consider paying a $15 sub without the upfront cost, but would much prefer paying $60 and getting whatever time I like to play the content, say to all but max level content, then paying to keep playing at max level for end game content which is regularly updated.
Frankly I don't know why there aren't more hybrid models out there to keep everyone happy, even, as I have suggested in the past, different kinds of servers - so sub players get to play together and buy2play or free2play on another. VIP-only servers say.
I've stopped worrying about the politics behind games. I'll pay for a game if its within my budget and I'm having fun.
Ive had fun with F2P games, Neverwinter/Warframe and Ive had fun in sub games, WoW, Anarchy Online, FF14, Rift. Ive also had fun with B2P games GW2/TSW
Ive also regretted plenty of purchases in my time, its part of being a consumer, you sometimes make a mistake.
I dont care if it has a cash shop, I dont need to be better than the next guy, or look cooler if its a cosmetic shop, I just need to have fun with me and my gaming community.
I don't have a problem with box cost + sub fee. I played CoH for many years before it went F2P. That was a disaster to me. Listening to all t he whiny b's saying they can't do this, that or the other because they haven't paid for it reminds me of real life and I just don't need that.
I've waited years for ESO to be able to play on my Mac. I can't wait for it to go live on-line. It's my prerogative to spend my dollars the way I wish. You play what you like. I'll play what I like.
ESO had 5M people sign up for Beta events. That sounds like a winner to me. I explored the towns in the Beta, found lots of great content and I just touched the tip of the iceberg. 12 more days and counting.
link a site up where you read ESO is poised to change its business model down the road. I have been following this game since it was a rumor and i never read that anywhere.
Link a site where you read that ESO is a charity project, and that this is not being done for money.... Changes will be made based on the financial need of the company, and even non gamers (Forbes) can see where this is headed. The reason why people are upset with the box + sub option, is because they dont believe that will work.... leaving them with a F2P game, after they have paid upfront.
It won't be ftp. It will probably be a hybrid like swtor.
So... F2P... like SWTOR. (See below for comments on Hybrid)
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by orbitxo
Originally posted by Superman0XI am not sure that you are actually understanding the situation. Historically speaking, new MMORPG's have launched with a box price + a monthly sub. However, only one game has ever been 'sucessful' with this (and even that gets debated heavily), World of Warcraft.In todays market, there is no expectation...
Sorry my friend gonna correct you here- Blizzard isnt the only company with a successful sub model. CCP with eveonline game is very successful.and they dont have a cash shop and its pure pvp with no 'bells and whistles'..and a few others-they are out there...In my opinion, long based games need to have a sub fee to maintain its longevity and quality. and as for world of warcraft success is purely do that it has morphed into an AOL social media hub and less like an mmo.-and thats ok too if thats what you desire to get into.
Sorry I have to correct you here and then lend some perspective. First, I agree that both WoW and EVE are great successful games. However both aren't sub games, they're hybrids and have been for quite a while. WoW has offered microtransactions since the sparkle pony and EVE has PLEX to ISK rmt conversions. Maybe it's been forgotten, but remember when WoW offered sparkle ponies in addition to the sub? That was a huge deal. They both survive now because they offer additional revenue streams and they aren't sub based. They may be subscription locked, but true sub-based games were Lineage and FFXI.To put EVE's success into perspective. GW2 made about half again as much as EVE did and SWTOR half again as much as GW2. EVE may be making enough to satisfy CCP, but they're not more successful than their sub-free/optional peers.I think the sub has nothing to do with longevity and quality. It's really hard to say because first gen games were developed at a time when production costs were lower, hardware/infrastructure and bandwidth costs higher, so they've recouped their costs already and afford the luxury of smaller player numbers to maintain themselves.It remains to be seen how new sub locked games will fare. None of them, except FFXIV is really sub-based and even they box fees and preorder goodies. Neither Wildstar or ESO are sub-based games. Wildstar will have rmt cash to gold and ESO has microtransactions.
In todays market, pretty much every game is a hybrid. However, there are F2P and P2P hybrids. P2P games require money up front, be it a box purchase and/or a sub. If you dont pay, you dont play. F2P does not require anything upfront, but will ask for something on the backend, be it a box purchase and/or a sub.
Some people are upset that that ESO is box + sub + cash shop... but only because they know that the box + sub is optional, and the cash shop is not. Once the numbers drop on those two, the company will focus back end monitizaton... because it is the only long term vialbe approach for this product.
Personally, and maybe it's because P2P was just the way it was when I started with EQ, I will pay a sub in a P2P *only* MMO (no F2P option) just to put up a fence to keep the free account abusers, trolls, etc out of the game.
Of course I want the game to be supported with content updates and bug fixes, that's a given. But the sub only option is absolutely the most attractive option for me in a MMO primarily for the reasons stated above.
That said, only 12 more days for head-start in ESO.. And then just over a month to separate the people serious about the game and the tourists.
I realize I'm being very blunt, this is just how I feel these days. No offense to the self-entitled or other freeloaders.
I seriously feel like pulling a cartman and freezing myself until it's out.
We have 2 gamers in the house and we played WOW faithfully for the last 5 years...until the content went the way of the deep end and customer service, well lets face it WOW GM's are not the brightest bulbs in the box. We made the decision to leave and went to RIFT last June and immediately fell in love with it. It had content, it had the dimensions and it had by and far the best customer service experience we had had in the past few years. We are 38/49 so even a hugely different demographic in our own house let alone the gaming world. F2P intrigued us, we felt that a game with that platform had the potential to be open to everyone...and because we could afford to we subbed for a full year. I am the old one in the house, LOL and my only gaming experience was WOW, but we felt that having a hybrid platform would allow us to support the game so that those in different socio-economic places could still enjoy something of quality. Then of course Hartsman happened and TRION with its dismal Defiance (yes we got sucked into that as well) and the shift in focus from quality to the cash shop lottery BS has led us to leave the TRION Family completely. Real Life circumstances have put us in the position of being at home all the time and due to a crippling illness so gaming becomes my social outlet as well as some rather fun neuro-cognitive therapy. Our disparaging involvement with TRION has left an extremely bad taste in our mouths. Now here comes the elitist prick view point, LOL! Honestly if you can't afford $15 a month to play, then thank the gods I do not have to suffer with your whining about my game. We have no idea whether ESO will work on a sub platform but for the time that it does I for one will be most happy to deal with the trolls who actually pay for and have a voice in the direction the game is moving. Other than the obvious disrespect intended for the freebie trolls and the countless manner-less children quite frankly we are both waiting with high anticipation of once again playing in an atmosphere that has at least a minimum level bar for its player to meet albeit a financial one. KK elitist prick done, I am not a fan of the cash shop approach, I want to earn my items in-game...I do not have an issue with incidental cosmetic things being available for purchase but a platform that is wholly/partially supported by a cash shop loses integrity in the long run.
Truthfully when a company such as TRION loses its focus and attempts to change like the wind to please any number of the trolls in the forums instead of being true to its mission and vision is when a game fails. Now if there is a mechanic or chain of events that is not working for the flow of the main content than by all means change it. Dev's must be fluid in their vision but to attempt to accommodate the whiners is not a winning combination. Having a subscription does not of course preclude the trolls for feeding but at least they have a vested place from which to share their discontent.
I do not know what platform will be successful these days. I do think that gamer's in general are an extraordinarily fickle group of folks that bounce around like fruit flies on a hot day, but having a solid vision, a firm path of development, regular and wholesome content additions as well as "over the top" customer service is a good place to start from and we shall be willing to pay the fee to be a part of the whole "vanilla" experience that is to be the Elder Scrolls Online!
We have 2 gamers in the house and we played WOW faithfully for the last 5 years...until the content went the way of the deep end and customer service, well lets face it WOW GM's are not the brightest bulbs in the box. We made the decision to leave and went to RIFT last June and immediately fell in love with it. It had content, it had the dimensions and it had by and far the best customer service experience we had had in the past few years. We are 38/49 so even a hugely different demographic in our own house let alone the gaming world. F2P intrigued us, we felt that a game with that platform had the potential to be open to everyone...and because we could afford to we subbed for a full year. I am the old one in the house, LOL and my only gaming experience was WOW, but we felt that having a hybrid platform would allow us to support the game so that those in different socio-economic places could still enjoy something of quality. Then of course Hartsman happened and TRION with its dismal Defiance (yes we got sucked into that as well) and the shift in focus from quality to the cash shop lottery BS has led us to leave the TRION Family completely. Real Life circumstances have put us in the position of being at home all the time and due to a crippling illness so gaming becomes my social outlet as well as some rather fun neuro-cognitive therapy. Our disparaging involvement with TRION has left an extremely bad taste in our mouths. Now here comes the elitist prick view point, LOL! Honestly if you can't afford $15 a month to play, then thank the gods I do not have to suffer with your whining about my game. We have no idea whether ESO will work on a sub platform but for the time that it does I for one will be most happy to deal with the trolls who actually pay for and have a voice in the direction the game is moving. Other than the obvious disrespect intended for the freebie trolls and the countless manner-less children quite frankly we are both waiting with high anticipation of once again playing in an atmosphere that has at least a minimum level bar for its player to meet albeit a financial one. KK elitist prick done, I am not a fan of the cash shop approach, I want to earn my items in-game...I do not have an issue with incidental cosmetic things being available for purchase but a platform that is wholly/partially supported by a cash shop loses integrity in the long run.
Truthfully when a company such as TRION loses its focus and attempts to change like the wind to please any number of the trolls in the forums instead of being true to its mission and vision is when a game fails. Now if there is a mechanic or chain of events that is not working for the flow of the main content than by all means change it. Dev's must be fluid in their vision but to attempt to accommodate the whiners is not a winning combination. Having a subscription does not of course preclude the trolls for feeding but at least they have a vested place from which to share their discontent.
I do not know what platform will be successful these days. I do think that gamer's in general are an extraordinarily fickle group of folks that bounce around like fruit flies on a hot day, but having a solid vision, a firm path of development, regular and wholesome content additions as well as "over the top" customer service is a good place to start from and we shall be willing to pay the fee to be a part of the whole "vanilla" experience that is to be the Elder Scrolls Online!
ESO has already shown a tendency towards the cash shop... good luck to you and your partner.... I can handle games like EVE was and what Wildstar is doing where you can buy and sell game time for in game money.. that is fine... but games like SWTOR and any that are going the way of the Hybrid model.... where actual content ( of any type including fluff) is locked behind a paywall/cashshop ... that is is what I will not support...
We have 2 gamers in the house and we played WOW faithfully for the last 5 years...until the content went the way of the deep end and customer service, well lets face it WOW GM's are not the brightest bulbs in the box. We made the decision to leave and went to RIFT last June and immediately fell in love with it. It had content, it had the dimensions and it had by and far the best customer service experience we had had in the past few years. We are 38/49 so even a hugely different demographic in our own house let alone the gaming world. F2P intrigued us, we felt that a game with that platform had the potential to be open to everyone...and because we could afford to we subbed for a full year. I am the old one in the house, LOL and my only gaming experience was WOW, but we felt that having a hybrid platform would allow us to support the game so that those in different socio-economic places could still enjoy something of quality. Then of course Hartsman happened and TRION with its dismal Defiance (yes we got sucked into that as well) and the shift in focus from quality to the cash shop lottery BS has led us to leave the TRION Family completely. Real Life circumstances have put us in the position of being at home all the time and due to a crippling illness so gaming becomes my social outlet as well as some rather fun neuro-cognitive therapy. Our disparaging involvement with TRION has left an extremely bad taste in our mouths. Now here comes the elitist prick view point, LOL! Honestly if you can't afford $15 a month to play, then thank the gods I do not have to suffer with your whining about my game. We have no idea whether ESO will work on a sub platform but for the time that it does I for one will be most happy to deal with the trolls who actually pay for and have a voice in the direction the game is moving. Other than the obvious disrespect intended for the freebie trolls and the countless manner-less children quite frankly we are both waiting with high anticipation of once again playing in an atmosphere that has at least a minimum level bar for its player to meet albeit a financial one. KK elitist prick done, I am not a fan of the cash shop approach, I want to earn my items in-game...I do not have an issue with incidental cosmetic things being available for purchase but a platform that is wholly/partially supported by a cash shop loses integrity in the long run.
Truthfully when a company such as TRION loses its focus and attempts to change like the wind to please any number of the trolls in the forums instead of being true to its mission and vision is when a game fails. Now if there is a mechanic or chain of events that is not working for the flow of the main content than by all means change it. Dev's must be fluid in their vision but to attempt to accommodate the whiners is not a winning combination. Having a subscription does not of course preclude the trolls for feeding but at least they have a vested place from which to share their discontent.
I do not know what platform will be successful these days. I do think that gamer's in general are an extraordinarily fickle group of folks that bounce around like fruit flies on a hot day, but having a solid vision, a firm path of development, regular and wholesome content additions as well as "over the top" customer service is a good place to start from and we shall be willing to pay the fee to be a part of the whole "vanilla" experience that is to be the Elder Scrolls Online!
Excellent post. This is a GREAT explanation of why many people are upset about TES launching as P2P. It is because they see the F2P conversion coming, and dont like being tricked. They are angry at the dishonesty involved, and do not want to be a part of it.
If you compare TES and FF XIV, you see a VERY differnt approach. FF is truly dedicated to a P2P experience, and has been willing to prove it time and time again. TES is fair weather P2P... and will be converting to F2P when it suits them better.
Ha, ha, ha, ... "with a contingent of players that agree that a free to play game attracts them more.". They are attracted because FREE, not because BETTER. With very few exceptions. As junk food restaurants have more clients then few quality one.
"So why, especially with the most successful game being a subscription-based game, does the idea of subscriptions seem to bother so many?"
They want to play for free, that's all there is to it. Not only that they want to play the most highly funded MMOs for free, MMOs which need a high return on investment.
Todays F2P players remind me of the old gamers who used to play hacked games for free. They could not give a toss about the industry either, the only difference I can see is even the hackers wanted quality.
Its interesting that alone in this commentsection are at least 3 different kinds of definition of success. Its hard to talk about successfuld games if everyone has a different notion of success. I personally call a MMO successful its its running for at least some years and is keeping the Company alive. Everything else is just more successful but its not a fail. Eve is asuccesful game that was subcription based for many years. And honestly i dont see gametime extenders like plexes as Hybrid model. Its nothing more than someone else paying for you gametime. Hybrid model begins for me when there is something different to buy than basically a gametime card. Even though you can buy ISK with them.
There were some games that i would call successful before WoW. Everquest, DAOC, Ultima Online.
I for once am ok with Sub based model because ill pay the sub anyway to get all the content when it is a hybrid. Otherwhise its likely that i pay more in a month for getting less.
I support the idea of a sub based game but when they have cash shops aswell it has become to greedy for my taste. You should pay box+sub and then having a cash shop aswell, that takes away the whole reason for a sub and on top of that pay for expansions.
Sorry will never play a game like this the greed is just to much
I think the best system right now is the GW2 B2P + cash shop, but with one addition. A VIP service that for a flat fee every month everything except the cosmetic items in the cash shop are automatically free to you. The items would be flagged VIP and when you stop paying the VIP fee each month the items would disappear.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I am willing to put up with just about any business model as long as the game is good. Subscription models are fine to me. HOWEVER, I will not take part in any game where RL money can be directly converted into power to a great degree. If a company wants to have a free game with a "VIP" monthly fee to unlock some things, thats fine by me. Vanity items for RL money? Knock yourself out! Exp boosters for RL money? Starting to get borderline here, hopefully the booster is quite limited in time, expensive and not a massive boost. But once cash shops start selling premium weapons, premium armor, premium tanks, premium ammo, premium guns and other things that disrupt equal footing in competition, then I am completely gone.
So many F2P games just treat their free players as defenseless sheep for their paying customers to rip into. The games only last as long as it takes for the sheep to realize they don't have a chance. Once the sheep disappear, the payers do as well, because they can't pay to win any longer.
There's one other advantage to subs. If you subscribe to a game you're a revenue source, if you do a FTP you're a resource to be exploited. I heard about the ARC Client from what used to be Perfect World and how it will monitor your internet usages and sell that information to third parties. I don't want that.
So why, especially with the most successful game being a subscription-based game, does the idea of subscriptions seem to bother so many?
Well, there are people who live by the saying "You get what you pay for." But, for every one person who thinks that way, there are about three dozen people who buy everything from Walmart.
Yeah, and whereas i spent $15 on a quality spatula from a boutique store 10 years ago thats still perfect, they've gone through 8 or 9 $4 walmart spatulas in the same time frame.
Who has spent more money?
I'm really tired of the fact that human mentality has this horribly flawed logic that if a lot of people do something then that means its good or worth doing. Its a ridiculous notion. Unforuntately im smart enough to know that its not going to change so i dont waste a huge amount of time fretting over it, and just accept it as nature of the beast.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
It's not like WoW, where mounts literally cost pocket change and are restricted in speed by your level and price-walled by training. In WoW's cash shop, you're essentially buying a "skin" - you still have to float 90% of the gold expense in game AND be the appropriate level to ride it. In TESO, you're buying a mount you can start riding as early as you can get in the open. Moreover, mounts "level up" in TESO based on feeding - naturally, those who start with a mount can start feeding it much sooner.
Someone who doesn't get nickel and dimed has to drop 17k Gold before they finally gets a chance to "catch up" with their mount development.
Meanwhile, in PvE, the guy who paid money HAS an XP buff, in the form of faster travel in zone. Meanwhile, in PvP, the guy who paid money can react in World PvP faster, and - if he sees you in transit, he has the choice whether to bypass you by moving quicker, or run you down.
Starting with a mount in this game grants a significant, mechanical advantage. I'm not okay with something like this in a sub model. As you said, that's a free to play cash shop.
Considering what entertainment costs (movies, dinner out, sporting events, etc.) I'm not at all worried about a subscription and even a cash shop with cosmetic items that don't affect game play. That's just me. If I'm enjoying myself then I'm willing to pay for it. Bottom line for me is that there aren't any games I'm really enjoying now and I am going to get my money's worth out of ESO. When I stop getting value for my money I'll move on.
I went out last night, dropped $70 on myself and my date for dinner and drinks and it wasn't a fancy place. I'm pretty sure we've both flushed our share of the $70 with no further enjoyment from that purchase to come. Gaming by all relative measures is pretty cheap and the amount of enjoyment I get from it far exceeds the cost.
That's just me, your experience may differ.
Link a site where you read that ESO is a charity project, and that this is not being done for money.... Changes will be made based on the financial need of the company, and even non gamers (Forbes) can see where this is headed. The reason why people are upset with the box + sub option, is because they dont believe that will work.... leaving them with a F2P game, after they have paid upfront.
It won't be ftp. It will probably be a hybrid like swtor.
So much is made of the WoW's success and so little made of the complete anomaly it is. Take MMOData’s numbers with a grain of salt, but only two Western MMOs have peaked above 1 million active accounts: WoW and SWTOR. So if ESO and Wildstar sell 2mil copies initially and retain about 500k subscribers, that would put them in the upper echelons of Western MMOs. And those happened to be the numbers where SWTOR said they would break even. Every company’s fundamentals are different, but if they are counting on numbers above that to make the game profitable, they are seriously misjudging the market they are about to jump into.
I think any MMO should offer as LOTRO offered in the beginning; Lifetime memberships for $200 ($199) if they really have a project plan to start sub based and move to F2P (or Freemium) some time frame after. Turbine did this and removed the Lifer subs some time after launch (but have used it as a promotional prize from time to time). This way they get a monthly fee of approximately 16 months of sub fees up front from many fanboy players, and when they go F2P, offer those Lifers some bonus for their sub such as LOTRO, a monthly stipend for in-store purchases. I think this keeps many people happy. The Devs get their release box $$ and monthly sub based $$ going for a year +, plus the extra income for the big spenders (box $ + $200), and that will get them 2-3 years of profit + dev costs, then they can go F2P and make $$ from DLC and expansion box $$. Even when I played WoW for 7+ years, when servers went down or when I finally quit WoW (basically due to boredom w/ content), you still have active players (Lifers) that will usually purchase the new box expansion to try out the new content and even spend RL $$ on cosmetic or content items from their store. I actually think Turbine did their release process perfect. And their track record seems to show that the game is still viable even after 7+ years with the exception of the rumors they will lose their LOTR license at some point.
Moon
F2P is a myth when it comes to MMOs. Excluding the few exceptions which are old games and on their way out (Rift), you basically have to pay to enjoy the game to a decent standard. So whether you pay $15 for a "VIP" account, $15 for your monthly pack or $15 for your monthly sub; you're still paying.
The demographic that is content with playing an MMO 100% free for a few hours a week is incredibly small. The majority of people can't resist paying and end up doing so, which means even if they're a "sub hater", they basically just paid a sub to play their game.
SWTOR may be "free" for example but that's only if you're content with incredibly limited content come end game. (Dungeon caps, PvP caps, space mission caps. Which I believe are WEEKLY caps, not daily.)
Sometimes I'm lucky to get 2-3 hours gaming time a week, if any. I'm not going to pay $60 and have a game lock me out after 30 days. I would possibly consider paying a $15 sub without the upfront cost, but would much prefer paying $60 and getting whatever time I like to play the content, say to all but max level content, then paying to keep playing at max level for end game content which is regularly updated.
Frankly I don't know why there aren't more hybrid models out there to keep everyone happy, even, as I have suggested in the past, different kinds of servers - so sub players get to play together and buy2play or free2play on another. VIP-only servers say.
I've stopped worrying about the politics behind games. I'll pay for a game if its within my budget and I'm having fun.
Ive had fun with F2P games, Neverwinter/Warframe and Ive had fun in sub games, WoW, Anarchy Online, FF14, Rift. Ive also had fun with B2P games GW2/TSW
Ive also regretted plenty of purchases in my time, its part of being a consumer, you sometimes make a mistake.
I dont care if it has a cash shop, I dont need to be better than the next guy, or look cooler if its a cosmetic shop, I just need to have fun with me and my gaming community.
I don't have a problem with box cost + sub fee. I played CoH for many years before it went F2P. That was a disaster to me. Listening to all t he whiny b's saying they can't do this, that or the other because they haven't paid for it reminds me of real life and I just don't need that.
I've waited years for ESO to be able to play on my Mac. I can't wait for it to go live on-line. It's my prerogative to spend my dollars the way I wish. You play what you like. I'll play what I like.
ESO had 5M people sign up for Beta events. That sounds like a winner to me. I explored the towns in the Beta, found lots of great content and I just touched the tip of the iceberg. 12 more days and counting.
So... F2P... like SWTOR. (See below for comments on Hybrid)In todays market, pretty much every game is a hybrid. However, there are F2P and P2P hybrids. P2P games require money up front, be it a box purchase and/or a sub. If you dont pay, you dont play. F2P does not require anything upfront, but will ask for something on the backend, be it a box purchase and/or a sub.
Some people are upset that that ESO is box + sub + cash shop... but only because they know that the box + sub is optional, and the cash shop is not. Once the numbers drop on those two, the company will focus back end monitizaton... because it is the only long term vialbe approach for this product.
Personally, and maybe it's because P2P was just the way it was when I started with EQ, I will pay a sub in a P2P *only* MMO (no F2P option) just to put up a fence to keep the free account abusers, trolls, etc out of the game.
Of course I want the game to be supported with content updates and bug fixes, that's a given. But the sub only option is absolutely the most attractive option for me in a MMO primarily for the reasons stated above.
That said, only 12 more days for head-start in ESO.. And then just over a month to separate the people serious about the game and the tourists.
I realize I'm being very blunt, this is just how I feel these days. No offense to the self-entitled or other freeloaders.
I seriously feel like pulling a cartman and freezing myself until it's out.
We have 2 gamers in the house and we played WOW faithfully for the last 5 years...until the content went the way of the deep end and customer service, well lets face it WOW GM's are not the brightest bulbs in the box. We made the decision to leave and went to RIFT last June and immediately fell in love with it. It had content, it had the dimensions and it had by and far the best customer service experience we had had in the past few years. We are 38/49 so even a hugely different demographic in our own house let alone the gaming world. F2P intrigued us, we felt that a game with that platform had the potential to be open to everyone...and because we could afford to we subbed for a full year. I am the old one in the house, LOL and my only gaming experience was WOW, but we felt that having a hybrid platform would allow us to support the game so that those in different socio-economic places could still enjoy something of quality. Then of course Hartsman happened and TRION with its dismal Defiance (yes we got sucked into that as well) and the shift in focus from quality to the cash shop lottery BS has led us to leave the TRION Family completely. Real Life circumstances have put us in the position of being at home all the time and due to a crippling illness so gaming becomes my social outlet as well as some rather fun neuro-cognitive therapy.
Our disparaging involvement with TRION has left an extremely bad taste in our mouths. Now here comes the elitist prick view point, LOL! Honestly if you can't afford $15 a month to play, then thank the gods I do not have to suffer with your whining about my game. We have no idea whether ESO will work on a sub platform but for the time that it does I for one will be most happy to deal with the trolls who actually pay for and have a voice in the direction the game is moving. Other than the obvious disrespect intended for the freebie trolls and the countless manner-less children quite frankly we are both waiting with high anticipation of once again playing in an atmosphere that has at least a minimum level bar for its player to meet albeit a financial one. KK elitist prick done, I am not a fan of the cash shop approach, I want to earn my items in-game...I do not have an issue with incidental cosmetic things being available for purchase but a platform that is wholly/partially supported by a cash shop loses integrity in the long run.
Truthfully when a company such as TRION loses its focus and attempts to change like the wind to please any number of the trolls in the forums instead of being true to its mission and vision is when a game fails. Now if there is a mechanic or chain of events that is not working for the flow of the main content than by all means change it. Dev's must be fluid in their vision but to attempt to accommodate the whiners is not a winning combination. Having a subscription does not of course preclude the trolls for feeding but at least they have a vested place from which to share their discontent.
I do not know what platform will be successful these days. I do think that gamer's in general are an extraordinarily fickle group of folks that bounce around like fruit flies on a hot day, but having a solid vision, a firm path of development, regular and wholesome content additions as well as "over the top" customer service is a good place to start from and we shall be willing to pay the fee to be a part of the whole "vanilla" experience that is to be the Elder Scrolls Online!
Lar
ESO has already shown a tendency towards the cash shop... good luck to you and your partner.... I can handle games like EVE was and what Wildstar is doing where you can buy and sell game time for in game money.. that is fine... but games like SWTOR and any that are going the way of the Hybrid model.... where actual content ( of any type including fluff) is locked behind a paywall/cashshop ... that is is what I will not support...
Excellent post. This is a GREAT explanation of why many people are upset about TES launching as P2P. It is because they see the F2P conversion coming, and dont like being tricked. They are angry at the dishonesty involved, and do not want to be a part of it.
If you compare TES and FF XIV, you see a VERY differnt approach. FF is truly dedicated to a P2P experience, and has been willing to prove it time and time again. TES is fair weather P2P... and will be converting to F2P when it suits them better.
"So why, especially with the most successful game being a subscription-based game, does the idea of subscriptions seem to bother so many?"
They want to play for free, that's all there is to it. Not only that they want to play the most highly funded MMOs for free, MMOs which need a high return on investment.
Todays F2P players remind me of the old gamers who used to play hacked games for free. They could not give a toss about the industry either, the only difference I can see is even the hackers wanted quality.
Its interesting that alone in this commentsection are at least 3 different kinds of definition of success. Its hard to talk about successfuld games if everyone has a different notion of success. I personally call a MMO successful its its running for at least some years and is keeping the Company alive. Everything else is just more successful but its not a fail. Eve is asuccesful game that was subcription based for many years. And honestly i dont see gametime extenders like plexes as Hybrid model. Its nothing more than someone else paying for you gametime. Hybrid model begins for me when there is something different to buy than basically a gametime card. Even though you can buy ISK with them.
There were some games that i would call successful before WoW. Everquest, DAOC, Ultima Online.
I for once am ok with Sub based model because ill pay the sub anyway to get all the content when it is a hybrid. Otherwhise its likely that i pay more in a month for getting less.
I support the idea of a sub based game but when they have cash shops aswell it has become to greedy for my taste. You should pay box+sub and then having a cash shop aswell, that takes away the whole reason for a sub and on top of that pay for expansions.
Sorry will never play a game like this the greed is just to much
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I am willing to put up with just about any business model as long as the game is good. Subscription models are fine to me. HOWEVER, I will not take part in any game where RL money can be directly converted into power to a great degree. If a company wants to have a free game with a "VIP" monthly fee to unlock some things, thats fine by me. Vanity items for RL money? Knock yourself out! Exp boosters for RL money? Starting to get borderline here, hopefully the booster is quite limited in time, expensive and not a massive boost. But once cash shops start selling premium weapons, premium armor, premium tanks, premium ammo, premium guns and other things that disrupt equal footing in competition, then I am completely gone.
So many F2P games just treat their free players as defenseless sheep for their paying customers to rip into. The games only last as long as it takes for the sheep to realize they don't have a chance. Once the sheep disappear, the payers do as well, because they can't pay to win any longer.Yeah, and whereas i spent $15 on a quality spatula from a boutique store 10 years ago thats still perfect, they've gone through 8 or 9 $4 walmart spatulas in the same time frame.
Who has spent more money?
I'm really tired of the fact that human mentality has this horribly flawed logic that if a lot of people do something then that means its good or worth doing. Its a ridiculous notion. Unforuntately im smart enough to know that its not going to change so i dont waste a huge amount of time fretting over it, and just accept it as nature of the beast.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche