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@Elder Scrolls fans: Which model do you like most, MMO Themepark of MMO Sandbox?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I am curious, But for the Elder Scrolls fans out there that have come to this board. Which do you like more when it comes to MMOs? The Themepark MMO model or the Sandbox MMO model.
Elder Scrolls seem to be a hit "Sandbox" singleplayer game, but how different is that to its MMO counterpart design, aka the Sandbox MMO?
Would the Themepark MMO model appeal to the Sandbox Elder Scrolls singleplayer game fans more than a Sandbox MMO model would?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Really???
You dont consider Daggerfall a sandbox game? Even Morrowind (to a far lesser extent)?
Elder Scrolls games (up to Morrowind) were total sandbox games- Morrowind was more of a hybrid. That said, the inclusion of mods have made the ES series the best of the best in terms of sandbox play. I still play a heavily modded Morrowind and have played that game since the week it released. The inclusion of mods make this like the ultimate "train set" to tool around in and shape-
Absent of mods though, Daggerfall and Arena were total sandbox games.
ES games have always been themeparks without rails.
The content is almost entirely static, but the player has complete freedom to do that content in any sequence, and as much or as little of it as desired.
The ES games can appear to be sandboxes because mod developers can re-arrange existing rides or add entirely new rides to the themepark.
For mmorpgs i perfer themeparks
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I like high quallity games that are fun to play, and dont require me to 24/7 online to be competitive..
A poll like this is totally meaningless, because it immediately attrackts the typical hardcore sandbox fan that is roaming these boards 24/7 because there is currently no good sandbox game available..... Which makes them think they are a force to reckon with, and makes them forget they are just a small minority...
there is a reason that there are no high quallity sandbox mmos.....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Spot on, and i personally think the feeling the ESO gives me comes very close to this...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Naturally, since themeparks have always allowed you to slay the god who would assist you in their quests, dooming the world and making sure your destiny is never fulfilled.
Skyrim and Oblivion disalllowed such freedom, but Morrowind for example was far from "Themepark". A game that is a sandbox doesn't mean there are no stories to play through. I have never understood why people would seclude such feature from a "sandbox" game. TES as a series is to this day trademarked with freedom of choice, however it is to far lesser extent these days. Themeparks set you on rails you have to follow in order to get further in the game (essentially leveling up, or gaining strength for your character), Morrowind & Daggerfall had absolutely no real rails, they had stories you could follow, sure. But were you forced to? Of course not.
Depends on how you classify Sandbox. I myself consider them to be Sandbox because at it's very basic core Sandbox is open ended worlds with minimal guidance and/or linearity.
My Favorite model is Definitely more sandbox with some Themepark elements such as quests (detailed, hard and long not the WoW Tasks). I also like modern Themepark elements such as Auction Houses and endgame grinding.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
MMO preference is not binary, there is a lot more to the genre than just black or white. The best games find ways to innovate systems of both, borrow the better features and cut the lesser ones. Variety and moderation, choices and options, MMOs can be so much more than just theme park or sandbox.
in regard to Elder Scrolls titles, Morrowind was my first. Generally, the three I have played felt very much like a sand park. The key to making it work is player choice, letting them progress at the rate they choose and the direction. Not all progression is linear.
here we go again......people have their own made up idea of what a sandbox is, usually outlining the type of game they want to play lol
sorry but having freedom to go where you want when you want does not make it a sandbox.
stop and think about what the term sandbox means. it means being able to build sandcastles in your sandbox, that is the defining feature.....player driven content, player made content.
when you have a game that is quest driven with absolutely no player made content other than basic crafting (like ES games) that is not a sandbox.
ES is an open world RPG, that's the label that should be used IMO, not sandbox.
you want a sandbox, go play EQNL when it comes out. then look at that game and say to yourself "this is nothing like an ES game" that is because ES games are not sandbox games.
Agree with both of you.
You are defining open world more than sandbox. Sandbox games tend to be open world, that does not mean all open world games are sandboxes. There are no "pure" sandbox MMOs, and few pure sandbox single player games. Unless there is something I am forgetting, the first ES game to have an element that was even arguably sandbox was Skyrim, and only once the Hearthstone expansion released. And that was a pretty watered down and weak sandbox element.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
The problem (and what will derail the thread into a a "one side vs another" is that people can't agree what a sandbox is.
As another poster said and in my opinion "got it right", The Elder Scrolls games are full of "Role Play" sand.
Some people don't get this or don't appreciate it and require a more concrete list of features that they believe a sandbox has to have but I suspect that these individuals tend to be very "literal" in how they approach things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I just think if you are going to use a term that comes from an analogy, you should use it in a way that is actually consistent with the analogy. I think part of the problem here is the a lot of people have a psychological need for dichotomies. They want everything to belong to either Category A, or Category B. (Themepark or Sandbox in this case) when often the particular thing being discussed has no relation to either category.
The ability of a character to "RP" in a game has absolutely nothing to do with whether a game is themepark or sandbox. These are terms that apply only to the nature of content and method of it's creation in the game. Any content that is static and created by the developer is themepark content (Quests, cities, static spawns, etc. etc.) any content that consists of tools which allow the player to alter the world in some fashion is sandbox content. Anything that doesn't fall into one of those two narrow categories is not themepark or sandbox, it is simply a game element that has nothing to do with that distinction.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Like comparing Heroes of the Lance Vs Dungeon Master or Captive.
Sandboxy any day and night.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
There is no option for both so I didn't vote. I plan to play ESO and supplement my off time with 7 Days to Die, good sandbox game, solo and multiplayer.
http://7daystodie.com/
I like the MMO Themepark. I want the MMO Sandbox. The current available options for sandbox game play are pretty weak (imo).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think there is some truth in that people want things to be categorized. However, I disagree in that the ability for a person to "role play" has nothing to do with sandbox/themepark "to a point".
Currently I play Morrowind and Skyrim (sort of just restarted Oblivion). I also have been playing Dark Messiah.
The ability to adopt a back story, persona, "characters that shape your 'life'" and the ability to take actions in a way that your character would take them is seriously curtailed in Dark Messiah but very much supported in the Elder Scrolls games.
In Dark Messiah you essentially "go in a straight line" and follow story point to story point. There is no chance to be an assassin or Thief or Virtuous Paladin or troubled healer.
In the Elder Scrolls games you can do all of this and barely (if at all) need to touch any quests.
There are of course barriers that become apparent the more extreme you play your character and it's up to the player to decide if it's really worth trying to "take over" the continent when the game really doesn't support it.
In thempark games you can easily adopt all the role play persona you want but you will run into barriers. You can't go here/ther because you haven't done x step of a quest, you can't have x piece of equipment because it's all bind on equip (doesn't have to be but that's what developers seem to do).
You can play "outside" of the game's structure but you will constantly be reminded that there are rails and you must take these rails.
As far as altering the world, in truth I rarely EVER built anything in my sandbox as a kid. Really. And I had a HUGE sandbox which was the product of the house's previous owners removing an above ground pool and leaving a huge circle of sand, no vegetation, which a kid could use to his/her heart's content.
So what did I do with that sandbox? It was always a canvas for my adventures. Just a place to take the toys and let my imagination run wild. Some building but it really was more of a pain as sand isn't great building material.
That's why I don't see building things as being a necessary part of the sandbox game.
As far as affecting the world? There is very little that you can really affect when you are talking about thousands upon thousands of players. What ends up happening is that groups form and you "hopefully" have some threads of influence like taking over a section of the world. I suspect the real game in "sandbox" games is more about player interaction and not requiring story or structure. Just a place to interact with some tools that allow different interactions.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thank you OP for making this thread, it has made something very clear to me that until now has eluded me. Why Devs don't try and make sandbox games....
It's because the community clearly has no idea of what a sandbox game actually is. So why try and make one.
People in this thread are actually saying that Skyrim is NOT a sandbox game. You can do ANYTHING you want, follow the main story line, completely ignore the main story line, build a house, buy an inn, hunt monsters, be a crafter, mine for resorces, learn magic, get married, have kids playing in the back yard, hire a maid,
Ohh wait, there are stories available to the player shoould they choose to look into them (don't have to mind you) but the fact that ANOTHER option is available certain takes away the sandboxiness, my bad.
I thought I knew what a sandbox game was, who knew that having too many options that you can do or ignore was the core of a themepark game...
I did not realize that tossing a couple buckets and shovels into the sandbox somehow removed the sand...
www.90and9.net
www.prophecymma.com
I'd break it down as some people want a virtual world sandbox and some people actually want to build stuff.
As a virtual world which gives you freedom to play the kind of character you want to play, TES games are pretty good but if someone thinks of a sandbox as a game that lets you build things (like Minecraft or even The Sims to some extent) than TES falls way short.
Personally, even though I generally describe myself as a sandbox fan I'm much more to the virtual world side. I have little interest in building and terraforming and architecture simulation but some people are very into that.
People who say TES games are themeparks either are not thinking it through or have never played a linear themepark game.