Originally posted by $cStephens My reply...Eve = WorkWork = badEve = badWOW = FunFun = GoodGood = WoWAny questions????
Your post = worse then OP
And why did I just do that? Anyway your theory makes sense in Eve = Work, but that makes eve bad? Actually working, not grinding to make your character bigger, better doesn't make it bad, makes it better then anything else, gets you involved more, not just grinding continuesly. Now, as I pleaded before, LOCK THIS GODFORSAKEN THREAD , EVE and WOW cannot be judged together because they are 99% different (1% is sunscription base =P) So stop this nonsense.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Originally posted by Jhughesy Eve = Detailed and complex WoW = Simple Both can be fun but I know which one I prefer.
Eve = Boring like a certain hot place.
WoW = Simple but entertaining.
No. I don't play WoW. But I've played both WoW and EVE.
At least wow is fun to play...
you cant really compare the games too much. let me say this...since WOW is simple, there tends to be more younger people than in EVE. younger people can get frustrated playing games like Eve, where you have to think a whole lot more on how you do things. with games like WOW, there is thinking involved, but usually you can just get a better weapon or level up and your fine. also it depends on taste. i for example prefer Eve to WOW, because its more complex and you actually IMPACT the universe, even in insignificant ways. i also like WOW or similar games when i dont want to think too much about what im doing and just have some mindless killing. unlike WOW and similar games, where you just kill NPC's and mobs and level up. that is fun in its own way, but Eve (a bit ironically) has more realism on the unsharded and player driven front.
you can tell im a biased Eve player but seriously, i enjoy both games.
Originally posted by Azirophos Elnator, the OP is just an Idiot trying to start a senseless flamewar, in which he partly and sadly succeeded. Ignore the bastard.
Originally posted by Static_Wolf Ive played WoW and EvE for a while, The WoW community seems more mature at times.. Dont mean to put down Eve, but WoW kicks it's ass too...If only you can land on planets in EvE....no interaction gets old fast imo. WoW should be rated top mmo, eve top 5.
for the planet landing, it will be SOON TM. and it depends on where you are, just like any other MMO. really i think its the loudest and most annoying people in any gaming community that point the fingers and say "that game is less mature". really, its more indivitual than the entire gaming community of some other game. the mistake here is generalizing. its not "all WOW players" or "all EVE players". its the individual people involved pointing fingers at other huge masses of people, most of whom might not even have anything to do with it, or even KNOW about it.
Originally posted by Spoonthieve I've played EVE for over a year and a half and and was a frequent visitor to their forums. There was mostly constructive criticism about CCPs new ideas, intelligent questions and a good sense of humor (bar the Corporations and Alliance discussion forum which attracts alot of flaming). On the WoW forum I usually see whining, childish name calling (in some cases quite offensive), and general spam. On my realm forum (Deathwing EU) hardly anything serious is written. Judging by each of the games forums, I'd say EVE has a far more respectable community. Its also noticeable that the Dev/player relationship on EVE is much better. The devs (and GMs) are always speaking to the players on EVE and provide an excellent dev blog to update the players on whats going on. As a warrior in WoW, its quite shocking to see that we are completely ignored by the developers. Just look at the warrior forum on the European WoW site, theres barely a single dev reply to any questions if any at all.
lets compare dev-to-player relationships and the constructive post to flame post ratio instead in the general section of each game forum
Originally posted by Azirophos Elnator, the OP is just an Idiot trying to start a senseless flamewar, in which he partly and sadly succeeded. Ignore the bastard.
why did you click the post then? jk
good point. why did you click on the thread if you didn't want to get into a flame war? when you see a header that clearly presents two sides you will find flaming there.
I think I have seen double posts as the last post for the last three threads I have been in. But again, LOCK THIS IDIOTIC THREAD! We have seen each side's ridiculous arguments, I have even partaken in it, but we do not need to argue between almost differnt genra, comparing eve and wow is like comparing fps to rpg, there is no comparison and nobody flame me for this because in all your hearts you know all the attempts at it were second rate and are dieing off. So remove/lock this thread so that this can end.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
Eve is not my cup "o" tea. I tried for 3 months to get into it, but realized that even though people feel that they are building their character, that they are really just paying for characters to build themselves. Yes the skill system does get rid of "Grinding" but isn't grinding the reason MMO's are in the place they are now. Heck every MMO has a grind, it's just that Eve managed to turn "grind" into a buy your own skills.
I don't want to sit Idly by as I wait for 3 weeks for one of my skills to train. It just doesn't make sense.
I also never fully understood what was so cutting edge about the PvP battles. They are clunky and leave a lot to be desired.
Eve is however, the greatest screen saver yet!
WoW is a good time for a bit, but the most fun you will have in WoW is in the early levels when your character doesn't have all 75 skills at his/her disposal. Plus it's a new game still and their next patch does look like it is bringing a lot of good stuff to the table.
There are two different communities in Wow and 2 different game styles. Its rare to find someone who likes all 4 (I at least like 3 of them, Wow community is horrible)
The reason behind the amount of kids in Wow is becuase its very, very, very simple. There is little in the game that requires any thinking. I'll admit, that can be fun at times. You can log on, grind a few things and log off. Its hard to do that in eve. Eve is complex and requires alot of thinking. Just playing the game will not make you a better player than the person (in the pod next to you?). It also offers alot more freedom and allows you to make a career in anything you want. In Wow all players have one goal, in Eve theres almost no set goal. All players want to make money but theres a ton of ways to do it. However, we all know Eve can feel like a second job sometimes (Is it too realistic??) which drives alot of kids away.
The other thing that brings alot of kids to Wow is a lvl based system. Its stupid, i hate it and i love Eve's system. On kids, it has a mental effect that simulates accomplishment. It gives them a goal they can work for, and to them it feels good when they get a lvl. They just dont realize that it starts all over again,continues for another 59 lvls and has very little rewards per lvl. "Just one more lvl and i can get a mount" is how they function and its what keeps them playing. The drive in Wow is lvls, the drive in EVE is money. Money however, doesnt give much of a set goal. So that feeling of simulated accomplishment isnt there.
However in EVE, the accomplishments that are made are real. When you win a huge fleet battle and pop and enemy station they will feel it for a while. It will make a difference in a game. The feeling that you are making a difference is what keeps alot of people. Kill 50 enemy players in Wow and nothing is going to change really, just 50 pissed off players that have to walk to a corpse. Kill 50 players in EVE and you just won a fleet battle alone, here comes your full health fleet to wipe out whats left of the enemy alliance.
Essentially yes that is the equation, but remember Eve isn't for the masses. And how many time do I have to preach that this thread should be locked because the comparison is idiotic, yay they are competing MMO's, ones pure Space Scifi, non D&D leveling. The other is a High Fantasy, D&D leveling system. You grow up with the D&D lvl'n system and so you like it. But Eve isn't that so WHERE IS THE COMPARISON!?!?
People, before you state what you like dislike about Eve and WoW, please state how you can compare two immensly different games? Please. Otherwise your just another bud making a statement without understanding that there is no real comparison.
LOCK THIS THREAD!!!
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
I don't see why you're calling to have this thread locked, it's a non-flamey open discussion...I've seen many many worse!
Saying you can't compare EVE and WoW is also a tad silly...
They are both MMORPGs. They both have you taking on the role of a character in an alternate world (another way of saying RPG, but humor me). They both have you aquire skills & resources with said character. They are both pay to play. They are both perpetual worlds. They both have PvP (in a fairly similar form, WoW's PvP servers being the closer comparison, being almost as FFA as EVE is, though alot less intricate in the interconnections of PvP Guild/Corp rivalries).
Though the difference in the 2 games is quite large in some points, they're both in the same genre, and are by no means at opposite ends of that genre either...
IMHO, the comparison is valid...the request to lock this thread sounds very much to me like a knee-jerk reaction by EVE supporters who don't think their game can stand the comparison, though I'm SURE it's not...right?
Originally posted by hadz IMHO, the comparison is valid...the request to lock this thread sounds very much to me like a knee-jerk reaction by EVE supporters who don't think their game can stand the comparison, though I'm SURE it's not...right?
No it is that I am a tad sick and tired of seeing the same argument, stated either better or worse continuelly threw out this thread. Mainly because one [flame intended] Idiotic Eve player that couldn't keep themselves from trying to insult the WoW community. Yes they both fall under MMORPG [I wouldn't call WoW and Rpg, nor Eve. Not unless you stuck to a rp guild/corp] But they are virtually at opposite ends of the genra.You may not think so but look, fantasy vrs Scifi, Player controlled market vrs npc market, no end game vrs end game [by lvl 60 raids and thats it], no classes vrs classes.., do you need anymore?
The call to lock is a pure plea to remove it from my sight because I can't stand to watch players of both games try and out argue the other games player. If anything, it's a plea of sanity. Nothing more.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
The call to lock is a pure plea to remove it from my sight because I can't stand to watch players of both games try and out argue the other games player. If anything, it's a plea of sanity. Nothing more.
Ah...I understand the call for the lock...fair enough.
Still think they're comparable though...just because they're different doesn't mean you can't compare them. I can list plenty of differences too...
Excrutiatingly boring vs Quick Fun, No Content vs Reams of Content, Sparse & Empty vs Burgeoning, Non-involving combat vs Interactive combat, Large Downtimes vs Minute Downtime...the list goes on, extremely different games, but it DOESN'T make them uncomparable, it just makes one better than the other.
Originally posted by hadz So RabbidFerret What you're saying is... EVE is like a job where there is a lot of money but very little "accomplishment" with the little that is there being derived by killing other people. Whereas WoW is a fun, simple game where your accomplishments come from meeting personal milestones. I know which one I think sounds better...
No. You accomplishments in eve stick with you, and can make a difference in the world. When something big happens in Eve, the whole population feels it in one way or another. In Wow you have your own personal accomplishments, but they mean very little to the rest of the world. Even killing a dragon only gives about 200 people a buff for an hour. I feel that "killing" other people is the way most MMORPGs should work. The end game for EVE is pvp or ownership of a corp. The end game for WoW is pvp for points and running instances which gives you better gear so you can rake in more points in Pvp. Granted, if you dont like killing than eve is not the game for you.
Npcing or mining in Eve is no less boring than grinding in Wow, at least in Eve theres a community to keep you busy. However, a downside of Eve is the time it takes to get something done. In Wow you can go do an instance, all you have to do is find a group. If you want to do a big pvp op. it might take a little while longer.
How long did you play Eve for? Did you ever take part in any alliance wars? If not you really have only scratched the surface of Eve. 0.0 space is what everything comes to in the end. You still use mining and NPCing to pay for ships, but unless you want to pvp then you will have a hard time sticking with the game. I understand that, until pvp, the game lacks content. Pvp makes up for that in a myriad of ways. Where as in Wow you run into the whole game pretty much by your first few lvls. Questing and grinding.They'll throw instances and BGs at you within the next few lvls and there you go,Thats Wow.
I have active subscriptions to both games, I've played Eve for over 1.5 years and Wow for abotu 6 months. Wow is simple and relaxing, but i feel Eve has more depth and a much better community. They both have thier ups and downs.
Originally posted by hadz They both have PvP (in a fairly similar form, WoW's PvP servers being the closer comparison, being almost as FFA as EVE is, though alot less intricate in the interconnections of PvP Guild/Corp rivalries).
If you're calling implementing an FPS-like quick-kill fast-respawn no-loss system "PvP", sure.
PvP without high-stakes, without any sense of risk, without impact on the political landscape, is what made WoW so awfully boring for me, and what keeps me coming back to EvE.
ive never played wow ever (played eve though) personally from what ive seen, both of them r good in their own 2 seperate ways.. eve is good when it comes to the thinking factor + gfx ,etcetcetc
wow is good when it comes to the fantasy side ... besides its amazing to see ones favirote game at ground level (inn wow) rather than seeing it from top to bottom (w3:ft)
so keep it this way eve rules the roast when it comes to sci fi whereas wow is good when it comes to all the fantasy,beasts and quest etc etc
bottom line......eve and wow can not be compared, the only thing they have in common is the massivly multiplayer part......every other aspect is completely different.
So many players, play both because of this reason.
Originally posted by pmifflin bottom line......eve and wow can not be compared, the only thing they have in common is the massivly multiplayer part......every other aspect is completely different. So many players, play both because of this reason. I reccomend both but never compare.
Exactly -- couldn't have said it better myself....
One thing I will add though is that I chose EVE over World of Warcraft due to the fact of the end-game content and how boring it was -to me-.... I would still recommend WoW for the casual player, and EVE for the player who can stand to spend a LONG time learning how to play, but not necessarily have to devote a lot of time to it.
Try the free trials of both, see what you like, and you'll find you'll get a lot better results than having someone tell you from their point of view. There will always be EVE and WoW fanboys...
The call to lock is a pure plea to remove it from my sight because I can't stand to watch players of both games try and out argue the other games player. If anything, it's a plea of sanity. Nothing more.
sorry for my english which is all but good.
you tried eve i tried wow (along with eq2 and almost every other fantasy MMORPG i hate sci-fi)
you get bored in eve after playing half an hour, i get bored in wow, eq2, .... after playing half an hour.
we are different that's all. please stop saying my game is the best just say wow is the game i enjoy the most.
for now, even if i don't like sci fi worlds i get stuck in eve, as it's the one i enjoy the most.
i hope their will be some new fantasy game that give me a as fun as eve so i could get back to my 2 handed axe. for now i will stick to blasters
Comments
Your post = worse then OP
And why did I just do that? Anyway your theory makes sense in Eve = Work, but that makes eve bad? Actually working, not grinding to make your character bigger, better doesn't make it bad, makes it better then anything else, gets you involved more, not just grinding continuesly. Now, as I pleaded before, LOCK THIS GODFORSAKEN THREAD , EVE and WOW cannot be judged together because they are 99% different (1% is sunscription base =P) So stop this nonsense.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Eve = Boring like a certain hot place.
WoW = Simple but entertaining.
No. I don't play WoW. But I've played both WoW and EVE.
At least wow is fun to play...
you cant really compare the games too much. let me say this...since WOW is simple, there tends to be more younger people than in EVE. younger people can get frustrated playing games like Eve, where you have to think a whole lot more on how you do things. with games like WOW, there is thinking involved, but usually you can just get a better weapon or level up and your fine. also it depends on taste. i for example prefer Eve to WOW, because its more complex and you actually IMPACT the universe, even in insignificant ways. i also like WOW or similar games when i dont want to think too much about what im doing and just have some mindless killing. unlike WOW and similar games, where you just kill NPC's and mobs and level up. that is fun in its own way, but Eve (a bit ironically) has more realism on the unsharded and player driven front.
you can tell im a biased Eve player
but seriously, i enjoy both games.
why did you click the post then?
good point. why did you click on the thread if you didn't want to get into a flame war? when you see a header that clearly presents two sides you will find flaming there.
You = superficial
You = lose
I think its a stale mate.
I think its a stalemate.
I think I have seen double posts as the last post for the last three threads I have been in. But again, LOCK THIS IDIOTIC THREAD! We have seen each side's ridiculous arguments, I have even partaken in it, but we do not need to argue between almost differnt genra, comparing eve and wow is like comparing fps to rpg, there is no comparison and nobody flame me for this because in all your hearts you know all the attempts at it were second rate and are dieing off. So remove/lock this thread so that this can end.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Go buy Sin City.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
Eve is not my cup "o" tea. I tried for 3 months to get into it, but realized that even though people feel that they are building their character, that they are really just paying for characters to build themselves. Yes the skill system does get rid of "Grinding" but isn't grinding the reason MMO's are in the place they are now. Heck every MMO has a grind, it's just that Eve managed to turn "grind" into a buy your own skills.
I don't want to sit Idly by as I wait for 3 weeks for one of my skills to train. It just doesn't make sense.
I also never fully understood what was so cutting edge about the PvP battles. They are clunky and leave a lot to be desired.
Eve is however, the greatest screen saver yet!
WoW is a good time for a bit, but the most fun you will have in WoW is in the early levels when your character doesn't have all 75 skills at his/her disposal. Plus it's a new game still and their next patch does look like it is bringing a lot of good stuff to the table.
Eve = Pay to Train
WoW = Play to train
I'll take Wow.
But really I'm Ultima Online Pre-R server
There are two different communities in Wow and 2 different game styles. Its rare to find someone who likes all 4 (I at least like 3 of them, Wow community is horrible)
The reason behind the amount of kids in Wow is becuase its very, very, very simple. There is little in the game that requires any thinking. I'll admit, that can be fun at times. You can log on, grind a few things and log off. Its hard to do that in eve. Eve is complex and requires alot of thinking. Just playing the game will not make you a better player than the person (in the pod next to you?). It also offers alot more freedom and allows you to make a career in anything you want. In Wow all players have one goal, in Eve theres almost no set goal. All players want to make money but theres a ton of ways to do it. However, we all know Eve can feel like a second job sometimes (Is it too realistic??) which drives alot of kids away.
The other thing that brings alot of kids to Wow is a lvl based system. Its stupid, i hate it and i love Eve's system. On kids, it has a mental effect that simulates accomplishment. It gives them a goal they can work for, and to them it feels good when they get a lvl. They just dont realize that it starts all over again,continues for another 59 lvls and has very little rewards per lvl. "Just one more lvl and i can get a mount" is how they function and its what keeps them playing. The drive in Wow is lvls, the drive in EVE is money. Money however, doesnt give much of a set goal. So that feeling of simulated accomplishment isnt there.
However in EVE, the accomplishments that are made are real. When you win a huge fleet battle and pop and enemy station they will feel it for a while. It will make a difference in a game. The feeling that you are making a difference is what keeps alot of people. Kill 50 enemy players in Wow and nothing is going to change really, just 50 pissed off players that have to walk to a corpse. Kill 50 players in EVE and you just won a fleet battle alone, here comes your full health fleet to wipe out whats left of the enemy alliance.
It all depends what you like and want in a game.
So RabbidFerret
What you're saying is...
EVE is like a job where there is a lot of money but very little "accomplishment" with the little that is there being derived by killing other people.
Whereas WoW is a fun, simple game where your accomplishments come from meeting personal milestones.
I know which one I think sounds better...
Essentially yes that is the equation, but remember Eve isn't for the masses. And how many time do I have to preach that this thread should be locked because the comparison is idiotic, yay they are competing MMO's, ones pure Space Scifi, non D&D leveling. The other is a High Fantasy, D&D leveling system. You grow up with the D&D lvl'n system and so you like it. But Eve isn't that so WHERE IS THE COMPARISON!?!?
People, before you state what you like dislike about Eve and WoW, please state how you can compare two immensly different games? Please. Otherwise your just another bud making a statement without understanding that there is no real comparison.
LOCK THIS THREAD!!!
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
I don't see why you're calling to have this thread locked, it's a non-flamey open discussion...I've seen many many worse!
Saying you can't compare EVE and WoW is also a tad silly...
They are both MMORPGs. They both have you taking on the role of a character in an alternate world (another way of saying RPG, but humor me). They both have you aquire skills & resources with said character. They are both pay to play. They are both perpetual worlds. They both have PvP (in a fairly similar form, WoW's PvP servers being the closer comparison, being almost as FFA as EVE is, though alot less intricate in the interconnections of PvP Guild/Corp rivalries).
Though the difference in the 2 games is quite large in some points, they're both in the same genre, and are by no means at opposite ends of that genre either...
IMHO, the comparison is valid...the request to lock this thread sounds very much to me like a knee-jerk reaction by EVE supporters who don't think their game can stand the comparison, though I'm SURE it's not...right?
No it is that I am a tad sick and tired of seeing the same argument, stated either better or worse continuelly threw out this thread. Mainly because one [flame intended] Idiotic Eve player that couldn't keep themselves from trying to insult the WoW community. Yes they both fall under MMORPG [I wouldn't call WoW and Rpg, nor Eve. Not unless you stuck to a rp guild/corp] But they are virtually at opposite ends of the genra.You may not think so but look, fantasy vrs Scifi, Player controlled market vrs npc market, no end game vrs end game [by lvl 60 raids and thats it], no classes vrs classes.., do you need anymore?
The call to lock is a pure plea to remove it from my sight because I can't stand to watch players of both games try and out argue the other games player. If anything, it's a plea of sanity. Nothing more.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
Ah...I understand the call for the lock...fair enough.
Still think they're comparable though...just because they're different doesn't mean you can't compare them. I can list plenty of differences too...
Excrutiatingly boring vs Quick Fun, No Content vs Reams of Content, Sparse & Empty vs Burgeoning, Non-involving combat vs Interactive combat, Large Downtimes vs Minute Downtime...the list goes on, extremely different games, but it DOESN'T make them uncomparable, it just makes one better than the other.
No. You accomplishments in eve stick with you, and can make a difference in the world. When something big happens in Eve, the whole population feels it in one way or another. In Wow you have your own personal accomplishments, but they mean very little to the rest of the world. Even killing a dragon only gives about 200 people a buff for an hour. I feel that "killing" other people is the way most MMORPGs should work. The end game for EVE is pvp or ownership of a corp. The end game for WoW is pvp for points and running instances which gives you better gear so you can rake in more points in Pvp. Granted, if you dont like killing than eve is not the game for you.
Npcing or mining in Eve is no less boring than grinding in Wow, at least in Eve theres a community to keep you busy. However, a downside of Eve is the time it takes to get something done. In Wow you can go do an instance, all you have to do is find a group. If you want to do a big pvp op. it might take a little while longer.
How long did you play Eve for? Did you ever take part in any alliance wars? If not you really have only scratched the surface of Eve. 0.0 space is what everything comes to in the end. You still use mining and NPCing to pay for ships, but unless you want to pvp then you will have a hard time sticking with the game. I understand that, until pvp, the game lacks content. Pvp makes up for that in a myriad of ways. Where as in Wow you run into the whole game pretty much by your first few lvls. Questing and grinding.They'll throw instances and BGs at you within the next few lvls and there you go,Thats Wow.
I have active subscriptions to both games, I've played Eve for over 1.5 years and Wow for abotu 6 months. Wow is simple and relaxing, but i feel Eve has more depth and a much better community. They both have thier ups and downs.
If you're calling implementing an FPS-like quick-kill fast-respawn no-loss system "PvP", sure.
PvP without high-stakes, without any sense of risk, without impact on the political landscape, is what made WoW so awfully boring for me, and what keeps me coming back to EvE.
Similar form? Definitely not.
ive never played wow ever (played eve though)
personally from what ive seen, both of them r good in their own 2 seperate ways..
eve is good when it comes to the thinking factor + gfx ,etcetcetc
wow is good when it comes to the fantasy side ... besides its amazing to see ones favirote game at ground level (inn wow) rather than seeing it from top to bottom (w3:ft)
so keep it this way
eve rules the roast when it comes to sci fi
whereas wow is good when it comes to all the fantasy,beasts and quest etc etc
bottom line......eve and wow can not be compared, the only thing they have in common is the massivly multiplayer part......every other aspect is completely different.
So many players, play both because of this reason.
I reccomend both but never compare.
Exactly -- couldn't have said it better myself....
One thing I will add though is that I chose EVE over World of Warcraft due to the fact of the end-game content and how boring it was -to me-.... I would still recommend WoW for the casual player, and EVE for the player who can stand to spend a LONG time learning how to play, but not necessarily have to devote a lot of time to it.
Try the free trials of both, see what you like, and you'll find you'll get a lot better results than having someone tell you from their point of view. There will always be EVE and WoW fanboys...
sorry for my english which is all but good.
you tried eve i tried wow (along with eq2 and almost every other fantasy MMORPG i hate sci-fi)
you get bored in eve after playing half an hour, i get bored in wow, eq2, .... after playing half an hour.
we are different that's all. please stop saying my game is the best just say wow is the game i enjoy the most.
for now, even if i don't like sci fi worlds i get stuck in eve, as it's the one i enjoy the most.
i hope their will be some new fantasy game that give me a as fun as eve so i could get back to my 2 handed axe. for now i will stick to blasters
havent been here for several month, and what do i see first when looking at the threads?
THIS thread.
allready rofl when it was new, but it seams someone trained advanced forum necromancy to lvl 5 in the meantime?