I think the "problem" is more that some people seem to think that PVE revolves around story/questing and fighting NPC's. Which ofcourse is part of it but PVE can be so much more in the light of PVE content in a sandbox game.
Originally posted by MMOExposed this thread brings up a good question
lol I thought your sig was the question you were talking about...Realized it wasnt. Thank you though. I just think its weird how everyone says the future is Sandbox but a Sandbox will run into the same problems, at least as far as I could see, that theme parks will with PVE content. Content will be rushed through by some people and new content will never be good enough for how hungry the players are.
Here are some pointers on how to create sandbox PvE content from a recent speech about emergent game design i did.
Resources:
In almost all games resources are found everywhere and they are walled off by how many skills you are allowed to learn and then split into resource Tiers to create a form of progression. These are often called "gathering classes" and provide no real additional meaningful game-play other than following dots on a map and pressing a key.
In most games these resources re-spawn at the exact same positions and yield the exact same results. This is to make balancing and the economy predictable and easy to adjust for the Theme Park creators.
Before we look at how to implement resources into a sandbox type game, we need to discuss the Elephant in the room that pretty much destroys every type of emergent game-play: THE AUCTION HOUSE.
No matter what type of game you develop, there will always be the need for an exchange of goods between players. The easy solution is to just slap down a global auction house. This is very effective, easy to implement but immediately destroys all emergent game-play.
To encourage players to create a real economy you need to make resources scarce and localized. If apples can be harvested and bought everywhere in the game there is really no need for an apple economy. You might as well give them to a NPC vendor.
Let's assume you decided to have regionalized Auction Houses. They act as sort of a Warehouse for local merchants. Players gathering apples will bring them to the auction house for others to buy.
However that is not the only thing that has changed. All other regions suddenly have no access to apples but the players there still need them. Prices for apples are going up and someone needs to bring them to the other auction houses.
This is where emergent game-play kicks in.
Some players will start to travel to harvest in another region because they don't want to pay high prices.
Some players will gather and dump them in the local auction house.
Some players will buy cheap apples and transport them to other regions.
This is just the starting point. It's up to you to create more incentive and detriment to this apple trade. A few ideas on how to make this more exciting:
Make it difficult to reach other areas (see: no teleportation) and rewarding if you get there.
Create an area of PvE content between the regions. Examples could be roaming mobs that attack. Rivers or lakes that need to be crossed or dungeons that connect the 2 regions.
Create an area of free PvP that has to be crossed between the 2 regions. This area can be controlled by a faction that in turn controls how products flow between areas. Give them means to tax merchants that want save passage.
Provide players with horse and cart to transport huge quantities of apples but make it expensive to maintain and buy to increase risk of using it. Give them the opportunity to hire other players as escort.
Resources are not only regional but also seasonal.
Resources randomly vary in quality. -> SWG Resource system
NOTE: EvE online is a good example how regionalized resources and auction houses create a player driven economy. Star Wars Galaxies was a good example how complex resources with varying attributes created an economy.
[...]
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
No offense intended, but to me a PvP soul is ugly.
No offense intended but without a PvP soul you will be playing a SP game (PVP is in everything though combat PVP isn't, get the difference?).
Without a PVP soul you would also have a pretty big issue finding a spot to live in in a PVE sandbox as space is limited and if the sandbox is that good... yeah you can imagine the clusterfuck for space (kind of like how currently in Landmark you have to run around for allot of time to find a spot to claim.... IN CLOSED BETA).
Originally posted by taus01
NOTE: EvE online is a good example how regionalized resources and auction houses create a player driven economy. Star Wars Galaxies was a good example how complex resources with varying attributes created an economy.
[...]
Yes but both in EVE and in SWG you have/had a means of resources being lost to also further drive the economy ( in EVE it is the PVP element with the loss of ships, items, minerals, etc, associated with it and in SWG if memory serves there was item decay ) and at least in EVE that economy is going into terminal inflation by the looks of things...
Originally posted by YoungCaesar There isnt really a true sandbox without open pvp, this rule is too artificial and belongs in themeparks...
Wut. Are you seriously trying to argue that something like A Tale in the Desert isn't a sandbox? (It has no combat at all.) I think you're quite wrong. There's nothing preventing a game with no PvP or no combat at all from being a "true sandbox".
Originally posted by taus01 the Elephant in the room that pretty much destroys every type of emergent game-play: THE AUCTION HOUSE.
NO. Auction houses do no such thing. Not that emergent gameplay is "all that" anyway. "Emergent gameplay" is just another way of saying the devs neglected to make a good story. :P
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by sunandshadow
Originally posted by Saxx0n Pvp gives a sandbox its soul.
No offense intended, but to me a PvP soul is ugly.
No offense intended but without a PvP soul you will be playing a SP game (PVP is in everything though combat PVP isn't, get the difference?).Without a PVP soul you would also have a pretty big issue finding a spot to live
Disagree completely with the singleplayer thing. MMOs which have no PvP are significantly different from singleplayer games. Have you ever even played one?
Finding a place to live, yeah, that can be an issue, as well as the opposite, having a world way too big for the number of players and mostly empty. I think portable housing that's only present in the world when the player is actually using it is a pretty good solution; instanced housing is tolerable, if there's some natural-feeling way to channel players to visit other players' instances.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
How can so many people comment and avoid the elephant in the room?
EQN & Landmark
Or maybe every single poster on this thread so far are just that oblivious or myopic? Its the top "in development" sandbox PvE MMORPG.
On the discussion however: Just because PvP has been a part of many successful sandbox games, doesn't mean that sandbox games CANNOT survive without PvP. Done properly, and with other types of interactions that have nothing to do with battling, sandbox games can also be very successful.
How can so many people comment and avoid the elephant in the room?
EQN & Landmark
Or maybe every single poster on this thread so far are just that oblivious or myopic? Its the top "in development" sandbox PvE MMORPG.
On the discussion however: Just because PvP has been a part of many successful sandbox games, doesn't mean that sandbox games CANNOT survive without PvP. Done properly, and with other types of interactions that have nothing to do with battling, sandbox games can also be very successful.
See my initial post (hint: highly advanced AI, you would still need conflict and if the AI is advanced enough most players will not distinguish it from PVP because of the AI's capabilities so with or without PVP kinda breaks down there completely).
How can so many people comment and avoid the elephant in the room?
EQN & Landmark
Or maybe every single poster on this thread so far are just that oblivious or myopic? Its the top "in development" sandbox PvE MMORPG.
On the discussion however: Just because PvP has been a part of many successful sandbox games, doesn't mean that sandbox games CANNOT survive without PvP. Done properly, and with other types of interactions that have nothing to do with battling, sandbox games can also be very successful.
I am in the BETA and Landmark is not a sandbox game. It's a pretty, linear, crating driven Lego box. You need to follow the crafting "quests" exactly to "level up" your character. It's a Theme Park disguised as a crafting and building sandbox.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
But what is built, shall be destroyed too, it is called creative destruction. This is the only way to have balance in world. In opposite there will be hyperinflation or overbuilding. Destruction is a part of creation. The life will be impossible without dead. So to say PvP is ugly, but PvE is not, is a nonsense. And for MMO you don't need NPCs, you need only players. There is not genuine difference among killing a mob or a player in game. In both cases you kill digital object, but fighting vs player is usually harder. And PvP competition gives a good reason to craft items or to build fortresses, to gather resources and etc.
That kind of balance by definition can't exist in an MMO. Players enter an MMO with nothing, put in time, and receive something. this is a fundamental, and GOOD, imbalance; it's the thing that makes "life" in a game preferable to reality.
The more time put in, the more resource wealth the player builds up. The player absolutely isn't supposed to stay the same from the beginning of the game to the end of the game; they are supposed to gain wealth in the form of various possessions, and reinvest part but not all of their wealth to gain skills used for getting more wealth faster than lower level players. PvP is largely unrelated to destruction of wealth because it doesn't generally destroy money or other gathered resources; at most it destroys earned XP, consumable healing or mana items, and weapon/gear durability. It might move money from one player to another, but it doesn't function as a money sink. And if you want to talk about creative destruction, that can definitely apply to PvE combat if the combat requires a bit of tactical creative problem solving.
A game with open-world PvP and a game lacking NPCs are both ugly to me because they don't provide the best experience for me. They aren't immersive, they aren't satisfying, they aren't fun for me. PvP can't give me a good reason for anything because all reasons given by PvP are obnoxious.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Without it, PvE will be once over content. It doesn't matter if you craft or dungeon grind for gear, it's done once, never done again.
EVE is a never ending ISK grind to purchase new ships and fittings. A never ending mats grind to make them. It's actually easier to run sandbox PvE because PvE sandbox doesn't require a victim to make a victor. Victory in PvE means beating the decay.
Without it, PvE will be once over content. It doesn't matter if you craft or dungeon grind for gear, it's done once, never done again.
EVE is a never ending ISK grind to purchase new ships and fittings. A never ending mats grind to make them. It's actually easier to run sandbox PvE because PvE sandbox doesn't require a victim to make a victor. Victory in PvE means beating the decay.
Problem is in a PVE sandbox of the type you describe decay is completely arbitrary and allot of people have issues with their e-peens shriveling up and falling off periodically for whatever reason.. this is the reason ADKs got put into SWG.
Without it, PvE will be once over content. It doesn't matter if you craft or dungeon grind for gear, it's done once, never done again.
EVE is a never ending ISK grind to purchase new ships and fittings. A never ending mats grind to make them. It's actually easier to run sandbox PvE because PvE sandbox doesn't require a victim to make a victor. Victory in PvE means beating the decay.
Problem is in a PVE sandbox of the type you describe decay is completely arbitrary and allot of people have issues with their e-peens shriveling up and falling off periodically for whatever reason.. this is the reason ADKs got put into SWG.
The ADK was added because of stuff like the Scythe that had a hard cap of two per character. Nobody put ADK's on their comp armor that was replaced for a reasonable percentage of a single buff session.
Me, I didn't agree with the ADK even for my Scythe and had no issue with buying schematics from people who had no desire in playing Swordy. Much the same I had no issue with selling hard lock Schematics for proff's I knew I wouldn't play. BH had a similar weapon, I took BH line, got the schem and traded with a BH for his Scythe schem.
ADK wasn't added because it was needed. It was added because Development caved under pressure. Much like EVE continues to tell the carebears to piss off? PvE sandbox games need to tell e-peen leet builders to piss off.
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
They could turn EvE into a PvE only game in about a day and loose very little content that they themselves created.
Its a myth that a sandbox has to have PvP for it to be ...well..anything
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
They could turn EvE into a PvE only game in about a day and loose very little content that they themselves created.
Its a myth that a sandbox has to have PvP for it to be ...well..anything
I think it could be done, but it would be more about living in a world instead of just going on quests and killing monsters. You would need to have items that would eventually need to be replaced in order to keep things going. People who make food, weapons, armor, houses, boats, and whatever you can think of. They would need to be constantly in demand similar to real life. Some people could still choose to be adventurers. They would have to buy adventuring necessities or craft them on their own. It would be a place where people are heavily dependent on each other. I don't believe EQ was that way as much as UO.
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
Why do games need to be infinite? Just finish it and play the next one. It is not like the market will stop making video games, and we only have old games to play.
Without it, PvE will be once over content. It doesn't matter if you craft or dungeon grind for gear, it's done once, never done again.
EVE is a never ending ISK grind to purchase new ships and fittings. A never ending mats grind to make them. It's actually easier to run sandbox PvE because PvE sandbox doesn't require a victim to make a victor. Victory in PvE means beating the decay.
Problem is in a PVE sandbox of the type you describe decay is completely arbitrary and allot of people have issues with their e-peens shriveling up and falling off periodically for whatever reason.. this is the reason ADKs got put into SWG.
The problem is making PVE sandboxes that are fun. The game makers first problem is making something fun. The second problem is making something last forever. Think of it like the television show revenge. Its a stupid concept for a show because once the 'Revenge" is complete the show is over. However the first goal was to make it a season - and to be popular for a season and not worry about lasting forever.
Game makers would MUCH rather have a game with HUGE short term playing base then a tiny base that plays the game forever. Having your money NOW really is like having more money. ESO would rather have 10 million box sales then have 500k players in ten years.
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
Why do games need to be infinite? Just finish it and play the next one. It is not like the market will stop making video games, and we only have old games to play.
Games in general don't have to be infinite and I am glad we have plenty of those around. Now if some genre within gaming offers infinite gameplay/content wouldn't make those other game stop having a end to their game.
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
Why do games need to be infinite? Just finish it and play the next one. It is not like the market will stop making video games, and we only have old games to play.
Games in general don't have to be infinite and I am glad we have plenty of those around. Now if some genre within gaming offers infinite gameplay/content wouldn't make those other game stop having a end to their game.
Why should *ANY* game be infinite when no other form of interactive entertainment is? Why isn't it a completely unrealistic expectation that any game on the planet should never end?
Repairing decay makes for as boring of gameplay as doing laundry and housecleaning are in reality. I'd rather run out of content sooner when my "e-peen" grows to maximum size. (As a woman I'm giggling at this idea, but I guess the term e-peen gets the concept across more simply than saying something like "my bildungsroman journey to apotheosis" or whatever.)
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
The ability to provide a background for emergent gameplay in a pve game may not require sophisticated ai, its hard to know though because ai has been stagnant for a decade.
Originally posted by sunandshadow Repairing decay makes for as boring of gameplay as doing laundry and housecleaning are in reality. I'd rather run out of content sooner when my "e-peen" grows to maximum size. (As a woman I'm giggling at this idea, but I guess the term e-peen gets the concept across more simply than saying something like "my bildungsroman journey to apotheosis" or whatever.)
Thats why decay isnt enough, and full complete looting is needed to keep the economy going round and round...
Originally posted by sunandshadow Repairing decay makes for as boring of gameplay as doing laundry and housecleaning are in reality. I'd rather run out of content sooner when my "e-peen" grows to maximum size. (As a woman I'm giggling at this idea, but I guess the term e-peen gets the concept across more simply than saying something like "my bildungsroman journey to apotheosis" or whatever.)
Thats why decay isnt enough, and full complete looting is needed to keep the economy going round and round...
*cough*horseshit*cough* Flip back a few posts to where I was just talking about how pvp, with or without full looting, doesn't destroy wealth. It has no effect whatever on inflation. Ironically, the single major thing that removes the most wealth from a game's economy is when a top-level player stops playing. Anyone really concerned about economic balance might logically prefer non-infinite games for this reason.
Personally I think the concept of an MMO with a balanced economy is an illusion, not possible or even desirable in reality. In most MMOs the real bedrock of the economy is NPC sellback prices, not anything to do with player-player interaction.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
Why do games need to be infinite? Just finish it and play the next one. It is not like the market will stop making video games, and we only have old games to play.
Because whats the point? If I didnt care for my character to be infinite and always looking for the next adventure I would just play single player games all day.
I like playing where my character matters, its always growing, always improving. Why am I going to but 500 hours in a game and just set it aside and move to the next one. I had fun but I want to see my character grow.
Its one of the main reason why I rarely play single player games anymore. I beat them once and thats it. Nothing else to do, nothing will ever change. I can beat it in different ways but it doesnt change the fact that my character doesnt grow. No one else gets to experience him.
Originally posted by sunandshadow Repairing decay makes for as boring of gameplay as doing laundry and housecleaning are in reality. I'd rather run out of content sooner when my "e-peen" grows to maximum size. (As a woman I'm giggling at this idea, but I guess the term e-peen gets the concept across more simply than saying something like "my bildungsroman journey to apotheosis" or whatever.)
Thats why decay isnt enough, and full complete looting is needed to keep the economy going round and round...
*cough*horseshit*cough* Flip back a few posts to where I was just talking about how pvp, with or without full looting, doesn't destroy wealth. It has no effect whatever on inflation. Ironically, the single major thing that removes the most wealth from a game's economy is when a top-level player stops playing. Anyone really concerned about economic balance might logically prefer non-infinite games for this reason.
Personally I think the concept of an MMO with a balanced economy is an illusion, not possible or even desirable in reality. In most MMOs the real bedrock of the economy is NPC sellback prices, not anything to do with player-player interaction.
Yeah it does destroy wealth, from that particular person and adds to the thieves wealth.... You cant pvp all the time if you lose your equipment, either from decay or getting looted, and you would have to farm OR buy equpment again contributing to the market and the economy.
A balanced economy IS possible, just not in your current themepark game because of all the artificial limitations... You would also need localized banks, mails, auction house, etc. and regional resources so theres trade between regions. Oh and no fast travel so theres actual trade routes, all of this of course with open pvp everywhere and full loot. Now thats a game...
So a video got posted yesterday about how we should have more Sandbox MMOs. Im fine with that not a problem.
When he talked about it he talked about Eve, how its endless. Players will never run out of content. Amazing.
But this is PVP. How does a company make an endless sandbox MMO for PVE? He said the problem with theme park is that content is being processed faster than devs can create it. Well how would any company make a PVE game endless? Not all people want to do just PVP constantly. Most in fact.
The whole point of the video was that WoW destroyed the MMO community because everyone started making theme parks. and left Sandbox games to rot.
It just got me thinking. Sandbox rpgs today dont have anything special that makes them endless over a theme park RPG.
Why do games need to be infinite? Just finish it and play the next one. It is not like the market will stop making video games, and we only have old games to play.
Games in general don't have to be infinite and I am glad we have plenty of those around. Now if some genre within gaming offers infinite gameplay/content wouldn't make those other game stop having a end to their game.
Why should *ANY* game be infinite when no other form of interactive entertainment is? Why isn't it a completely unrealistic expectation that any game on the planet should never end?
Why is it unrealistic to you? Are you thinking in content terms as in just quests?
To me Star Wars Galaxies is my example of infinite content, it was a virtual world set within the Star Wars Universe
Resource gathering/harvesting and setting up harvesters took me from planet to planet while we had certain starter area's/planets it always was meaningfull to go back to them mainly because as a crafter I needed all sorts of resources. And as a Master Crafter I didn't feel like crafting only cap level stuff cause plenty of players around on all levels in need of all sorts of items. I know this isn't excactly the gameplay the majority likes but I just want to explain why a game can have infinite gameplay it just depends on the person what is liked.
Anyway to make a long story short. Yes a MMORPG can have infinite gameplay when it's sandbox(ish) doesn't mean they all should have it and it certainly doesn't mean everyone would enjoy that type of game. For me it's very niche which I happen to like among many other type of games and genre's.
EVE/Wushu are not "PvP" they are everything, pvp,pve, crafting and all at the same time. This is done by creating soft rule sets, and giving players the tools to govern themselves and control the world, this is were the content comes from. In a pve only environment, there are hard rules, and the devs govern the players and control the world.
Comments
Here are some pointers on how to create sandbox PvE content from a recent speech about emergent game design i did.
No offense intended but without a PvP soul you will be playing a SP game (PVP is in everything though combat PVP isn't, get the difference?).
Without a PVP soul you would also have a pretty big issue finding a spot to live in in a PVE sandbox as space is limited and if the sandbox is that good... yeah you can imagine the clusterfuck for space (kind of like how currently in Landmark you have to run around for allot of time to find a spot to claim.... IN CLOSED BETA).
Yes but both in EVE and in SWG you have/had a means of resources being lost to also further drive the economy ( in EVE it is the PVP element with the loss of ships, items, minerals, etc, associated with it and in SWG if memory serves there was item decay ) and at least in EVE that economy is going into terminal inflation by the looks of things...
NO. Auction houses do no such thing. Not that emergent gameplay is "all that" anyway. "Emergent gameplay" is just another way of saying the devs neglected to make a good story. :P
Disagree completely with the singleplayer thing. MMOs which have no PvP are significantly different from singleplayer games. Have you ever even played one?Finding a place to live, yeah, that can be an issue, as well as the opposite, having a world way too big for the number of players and mostly empty. I think portable housing that's only present in the world when the player is actually using it is a pretty good solution; instanced housing is tolerable, if there's some natural-feeling way to channel players to visit other players' instances.
How can so many people comment and avoid the elephant in the room?
EQN & Landmark
Or maybe every single poster on this thread so far are just that oblivious or myopic? Its the top "in development" sandbox PvE MMORPG.
On the discussion however: Just because PvP has been a part of many successful sandbox games, doesn't mean that sandbox games CANNOT survive without PvP. Done properly, and with other types of interactions that have nothing to do with battling, sandbox games can also be very successful.
See my initial post (hint: highly advanced AI, you would still need conflict and if the AI is advanced enough most players will not distinguish it from PVP because of the AI's capabilities so with or without PVP kinda breaks down there completely).
I am in the BETA and Landmark is not a sandbox game. It's a pretty, linear, crating driven Lego box. You need to follow the crafting "quests" exactly to "level up" your character. It's a Theme Park disguised as a crafting and building sandbox.
That kind of balance by definition can't exist in an MMO. Players enter an MMO with nothing, put in time, and receive something. this is a fundamental, and GOOD, imbalance; it's the thing that makes "life" in a game preferable to reality.
The more time put in, the more resource wealth the player builds up. The player absolutely isn't supposed to stay the same from the beginning of the game to the end of the game; they are supposed to gain wealth in the form of various possessions, and reinvest part but not all of their wealth to gain skills used for getting more wealth faster than lower level players. PvP is largely unrelated to destruction of wealth because it doesn't generally destroy money or other gathered resources; at most it destroys earned XP, consumable healing or mana items, and weapon/gear durability. It might move money from one player to another, but it doesn't function as a money sink. And if you want to talk about creative destruction, that can definitely apply to PvE combat if the combat requires a bit of tactical creative problem solving.
A game with open-world PvP and a game lacking NPCs are both ugly to me because they don't provide the best experience for me. They aren't immersive, they aren't satisfying, they aren't fun for me. PvP can't give me a good reason for anything because all reasons given by PvP are obnoxious.
One word
Decay
Without it, PvE will be once over content. It doesn't matter if you craft or dungeon grind for gear, it's done once, never done again.
EVE is a never ending ISK grind to purchase new ships and fittings. A never ending mats grind to make them. It's actually easier to run sandbox PvE because PvE sandbox doesn't require a victim to make a victor. Victory in PvE means beating the decay.
Problem is in a PVE sandbox of the type you describe decay is completely arbitrary and allot of people have issues with their e-peens shriveling up and falling off periodically for whatever reason.. this is the reason ADKs got put into SWG.
The ADK was added because of stuff like the Scythe that had a hard cap of two per character. Nobody put ADK's on their comp armor that was replaced for a reasonable percentage of a single buff session.
Me, I didn't agree with the ADK even for my Scythe and had no issue with buying schematics from people who had no desire in playing Swordy. Much the same I had no issue with selling hard lock Schematics for proff's I knew I wouldn't play. BH had a similar weapon, I took BH line, got the schem and traded with a BH for his Scythe schem.
ADK wasn't added because it was needed. It was added because Development caved under pressure. Much like EVE continues to tell the carebears to piss off? PvE sandbox games need to tell e-peen leet builders to piss off.
They could turn EvE into a PvE only game in about a day and loose very little content that they themselves created.
Its a myth that a sandbox has to have PvP for it to be ...well..anything
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I think it could be done, but it would be more about living in a world instead of just going on quests and killing monsters. You would need to have items that would eventually need to be replaced in order to keep things going. People who make food, weapons, armor, houses, boats, and whatever you can think of. They would need to be constantly in demand similar to real life. Some people could still choose to be adventurers. They would have to buy adventuring necessities or craft them on their own. It would be a place where people are heavily dependent on each other. I don't believe EQ was that way as much as UO.
Why do games need to be infinite? Just finish it and play the next one. It is not like the market will stop making video games, and we only have old games to play.
The problem is making PVE sandboxes that are fun. The game makers first problem is making something fun. The second problem is making something last forever. Think of it like the television show revenge. Its a stupid concept for a show because once the 'Revenge" is complete the show is over. However the first goal was to make it a season - and to be popular for a season and not worry about lasting forever.
Game makers would MUCH rather have a game with HUGE short term playing base then a tiny base that plays the game forever. Having your money NOW really is like having more money. ESO would rather have 10 million box sales then have 500k players in ten years.
Games in general don't have to be infinite and I am glad we have plenty of those around. Now if some genre within gaming offers infinite gameplay/content wouldn't make those other game stop having a end to their game.
Why should *ANY* game be infinite when no other form of interactive entertainment is? Why isn't it a completely unrealistic expectation that any game on the planet should never end?
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99% of replies are off the original topic.
The ability to provide a background for emergent gameplay in a pve game may not require sophisticated ai, its hard to know though because ai has been stagnant for a decade.
Thats why decay isnt enough, and full complete looting is needed to keep the economy going round and round...
*cough*horseshit*cough* Flip back a few posts to where I was just talking about how pvp, with or without full looting, doesn't destroy wealth. It has no effect whatever on inflation. Ironically, the single major thing that removes the most wealth from a game's economy is when a top-level player stops playing. Anyone really concerned about economic balance might logically prefer non-infinite games for this reason.
Personally I think the concept of an MMO with a balanced economy is an illusion, not possible or even desirable in reality. In most MMOs the real bedrock of the economy is NPC sellback prices, not anything to do with player-player interaction.
Because whats the point? If I didnt care for my character to be infinite and always looking for the next adventure I would just play single player games all day.
I like playing where my character matters, its always growing, always improving. Why am I going to but 500 hours in a game and just set it aside and move to the next one. I had fun but I want to see my character grow.
Its one of the main reason why I rarely play single player games anymore. I beat them once and thats it. Nothing else to do, nothing will ever change. I can beat it in different ways but it doesnt change the fact that my character doesnt grow. No one else gets to experience him.
Yeah it does destroy wealth, from that particular person and adds to the thieves wealth.... You cant pvp all the time if you lose your equipment, either from decay or getting looted, and you would have to farm OR buy equpment again contributing to the market and the economy.
A balanced economy IS possible, just not in your current themepark game because of all the artificial limitations... You would also need localized banks, mails, auction house, etc. and regional resources so theres trade between regions. Oh and no fast travel so theres actual trade routes, all of this of course with open pvp everywhere and full loot. Now thats a game...
Why is it unrealistic to you? Are you thinking in content terms as in just quests?
To me Star Wars Galaxies is my example of infinite content, it was a virtual world set within the Star Wars Universe
Resource gathering/harvesting and setting up harvesters took me from planet to planet while we had certain starter area's/planets it always was meaningfull to go back to them mainly because as a crafter I needed all sorts of resources. And as a Master Crafter I didn't feel like crafting only cap level stuff cause plenty of players around on all levels in need of all sorts of items. I know this isn't excactly the gameplay the majority likes but I just want to explain why a game can have infinite gameplay it just depends on the person what is liked.
Anyway to make a long story short. Yes a MMORPG can have infinite gameplay when it's sandbox(ish) doesn't mean they all should have it and it certainly doesn't mean everyone would enjoy that type of game. For me it's very niche which I happen to like among many other type of games and genre's.
You can't OP not in my opinion.
EVE/Wushu are not "PvP" they are everything, pvp,pve, crafting and all at the same time. This is done by creating soft rule sets, and giving players the tools to govern themselves and control the world, this is were the content comes from. In a pve only environment, there are hard rules, and the devs govern the players and control the world.