I think what most people envisioned was that you just join a trade or merchant guild, when you want to actually buy (or sell?) something. You wouldn't be in that guild all the time.
Not sure how this works alongside guild shops? Guild shops only exist in the AvA area, but can be used by anyone who passes by?
The Auction system splinters the economy, not everyone will need the same things, it costs too much too post anything and makes people feel isolated. Non crafting/trading guilds are having issues finding players, people will get tired of trying to maintain a healthy population in their guilds due to inactivity and the such. The list of problems goes on and on and on.
Splintering the players into guilds for buying/selling/crafting does the opposite of creating a community, or causing people to be more social.
It's a horrible system and should be changed to a global system with a guild system still available to those who want to use it.
One thing I noticed is all the horrible, backwards thinking ideas and demodernization "features" in this game people love to applaud not realizing why the industry moved on from those horrible ideas years ago. The defense will end soon enough and people will see the game has a solid foundation but several badly implemented or thought out systems and "features". Things that push players away and cause players issues and will be hurting the game as people are finding out now that is already starting to happen.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
The Auction system splinters the economy, not everyone will need the same things, it costs too much too post anything and makes people feel isolated. Non crafting/trading guilds are having issues finding players, people will get tired of trying to maintain a healthy population in their guilds due to inactivity and the such. The list of problems goes on and on and on.
Splintering the players into guilds for buying/selling/crafting does the opposite of creating a community, or causing people to be more social.
It's a horrible system and should be changed to a global system with a guild system still available to those who want to use it.
One thing I noticed is all the horrible, backwards thinking ideas and demodernization "features" in this game people love to applaud not realizing why the industry moved on from those horrible ideas years ago. The defense will end soon enough and people will see the game has a solid foundation but several badly implemented or thought out systems and "features". Things that push players away and cause players issues and will be hurting the game as people are finding out now that is already starting to happen.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
And here i was thinking that innovation is moving forward and not backwards. No AH is as innovative as replacing perfectly working round tires with square ones.
The Auction system splinters the economy, not everyone will need the same things, it costs too much too post anything and makes people feel isolated. Non crafting/trading guilds are having issues finding players, people will get tired of trying to maintain a healthy population in their guilds due to inactivity and the such. The list of problems goes on and on and on.
Splintering the players into guilds for buying/selling/crafting does the opposite of creating a community, or causing people to be more social.
It's a horrible system and should be changed to a global system with a guild system still available to those who want to use it.
One thing I noticed is all the horrible, backwards thinking ideas and demodernization "features" in this game people love to applaud not realizing why the industry moved on from those horrible ideas years ago. The defense will end soon enough and people will see the game has a solid foundation but several badly implemented or thought out systems and "features". Things that push players away and cause players issues and will be hurting the game as people are finding out now that is already starting to happen.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
I'm one of those players, and I never even thought about economy or auction house if I didnt like a new game not bringing anything new to the table. When it comes to trading in MMO's I want as painless experience as possible, it's just something I have to do and I dont want it to steal my play time from the real gameplay which is combat, crafting, pve, pvp, exploring, story, and the like, NOT some boring ass trading that you have to do just to have some gold.
Originally posted by jesad What do you think a good alternative should be?
I think they should allow guilds that are large enough to have a bank and a guild store to set up a single public auction vendor in one of the PvE cities. Only guild members can post but the entire public can buy. This would still create locality for different markets, that is we would still avoid having a single universal, world wide accessible market and yet each of these markets would still be able to sell to a wider player base and buyers would still be encouraged to go ti different cities and different vendors to find the best deals. Guilds would still have a significant part in trade because of the need to be in a big one to be a seller.
As for PvP in Cyrodiil. Keep it where only a keep owner can sell from that keep. In other worlds. Keep holding guilds will have an exclusive right to market in Cyrodiil which is likely to be a prime location for selling consumables.
The base concept here is that you shouldn't greatly limit a sellers potential market but the right to sell publicly itself is still a privilege.
Never thought of that. I think that is the best idea or alternative to an auction system I have heard yet. Definitely would promote the guild in a big way, as long as they were fair in the pricing. And if not, you move on to the next guild market.
For such a Solo Centric game, I did find it odd to have this sort of Auction House. I would be much happier to add to the "feel" of the game to have a Zone/Instance with Player or even Guild Shopkeepers that you could load up with stuff. That way you could have the enviroment of ANYONE (not just guild mates) roaming the streets checking out vendors wares. I realize that would frustrate people who want something specific though
Well this guild system well just make people into number in guild and honest no one care to learn to know you if are in big guild so yeah in way the auctions system make trade guild worth in way to interact with other guild member of those guild for at the end of day you are just number nothing else.
But PvE and PvP guild will/can be more off tight community very everyone know each other and help each other of you dont need to be more few people in there so when hype and lay down when come to trade guild i think more and more people will start look for PvE and PvP guild if not while the lvl the do so at the end game at lest i think so.
Coming from a Wind Trader like me, you might expect me to be outraged at the lack of a public AH. Nope, not even the slightest bit upset. Yes, it is true that the biggest reason I gold capped in WoW was because of a public AH. You may be asking "how can you not be upset that you are limited to 30 listings across a maximum of 5 AHs?" When I started to play ESO, I noticed HUGE difference between this and WoW. In fact, it's something that WoW is suffering big time from. Care to guess? Yep. There are only TWO servers! People from the same region (NA vs EU) connect to virtually the same server. I say virtually because, from what I can tell, players are actually randomly slotted to one of many servers rather than having to select a server from a list. This is going to be huge for ESO because it will always ensure there is a proper balance of players in a given area. You will never log into the game and experience overcrowding nor complete vacancy, two things that players constantly complain about on WoW.
Because of this, which I enjoy far more than a public AH, there actually can't be an AH. Just imagine how overcrowded and flooded the AH will be. Not to mention the amount of undercutting that would happen.
Having multiple AHs also stimulates other social activities in the game, ranging from encouraging players to create larger guilds instead of a thousand smaller ones to participating in the Alliance War to take control of nodes and have your guild's store public. This is something WoW severely lacked and caused players to park their asses in SW all day and play the AH (including myself).
My final verdict: Not having a public AH is a good thing and for the better of ESO in the long run.
The Auction system splinters the economy, not everyone will need the same things, it costs too much too post anything and makes people feel isolated. Non crafting/trading guilds are having issues finding players, people will get tired of trying to maintain a healthy population in their guilds due to inactivity and the such. The list of problems goes on and on and on.
Splintering the players into guilds for buying/selling/crafting does the opposite of creating a community, or causing people to be more social.
It's a horrible system and should be changed to a global system with a guild system still available to those who want to use it.
One thing I noticed is all the horrible, backwards thinking ideas and demodernization "features" in this game people love to applaud not realizing why the industry moved on from those horrible ideas years ago. The defense will end soon enough and people will see the game has a solid foundation but several badly implemented or thought out systems and "features". Things that push players away and cause players issues and will be hurting the game as people are finding out now that is already starting to happen.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
And here i was thinking that innovation is moving forward and not backwards. No AH is as innovative as replacing perfectly working round tires with square ones.
You would be wrong about innovation then.
Innovation is taking anything in a new direction, even if it means taking a few steps back to see if taking the left road would lead to a far different outcome than where the right road has taken us. No one has invented anything without failures, or 'didn't work as well as I' or complete accidents and unintentionals.
"Moving forward." What does that even mean? Sounds to me like a generic buzz word that has no definition. Much like the term "innovation" is around here lately.
The current system is not perfect. Not by a long shot. But if their goal is to integrate buying and selling more deeply into a social experience, or make it take effort to shape the economy they want in their game, than an auction house is most likely not the answer.
We had an auction house in early beta. They didn't like what it did to the economy. So they tried something else. It's clumsy and can really use a search function and more features, but it works. I'm making money with it. Buying what I want.
This is where innovation comes in.
Which, by the way, the definition of is not "what I like is innovation."
Originally posted by Nebell I honestly doubt the usefulness of the current system. In theory, it can work. In reality, it's complete garbage. Each guild is allowed to have up to 500 members. You can have a max of 5 guilds, totalling 2499 possible players who will sell items to you. That is fine and all, but the leaders of each guild will be pressed to have only active members. This system forces them to clean guilds as often as possible. Having 5 guilds means you won't feel like being "at home". You will never get to learn most of the "guildies". Going afk for a few days will probably have you kicked out of the guild(s), forcing you to find up to 5 new guilds and explain to 5 guild masters WHY they should accept you instead of a bunch of other guys, who are waiting in line to snatched that 500th spot. This will lead to elitist trader guilds with players who are selling the best items between themselves, not allowing access to them to the public. Not to mention other small things, like having to swap between 5 guilds when you're looking for the best and cheapest item. That is just annoying. I'm not sure who decided that this system is good, or why was it implemented, because it makes no sense at all.
In my guild I wont be purging people for the very fact that a lot of them will make making friends in the trade guild.
The only people I will be kicking from my trade guild is the people who are inactive after 1 week after the early access grace period has eneded, because it means they have not bought the game. Other then that, I will never boot anyone out of my 500 member guild just for the reasons you mention. People have made friends with each other, and should be allowed to form years worth of friendships they can come back to in the future.
my invitation to the trade guild is an open door policy. If you need a Trade Guild like you describe feel free to send me a tell in game and I'll try to get you in when someone leaves. My info for the guild is in the trade forum under the guild. Feel free to send me in game mail for an invite.
The Auction system splinters the economy, not everyone will need the same things, it costs too much too post anything and makes people feel isolated. Non crafting/trading guilds are having issues finding players, people will get tired of trying to maintain a healthy population in their guilds due to inactivity and the such. The list of problems goes on and on and on.
Splintering the players into guilds for buying/selling/crafting does the opposite of creating a community, or causing people to be more social.
It's a horrible system and should be changed to a global system with a guild system still available to those who want to use it.
One thing I noticed is all the horrible, backwards thinking ideas and demodernization "features" in this game people love to applaud not realizing why the industry moved on from those horrible ideas years ago. The defense will end soon enough and people will see the game has a solid foundation but several badly implemented or thought out systems and "features". Things that push players away and cause players issues and will be hurting the game as people are finding out now that is already starting to happen.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
And here i was thinking that innovation is moving forward and not backwards. No AH is as innovative as replacing perfectly working round tires with square ones.
You would be wrong about innovation then.
Innovation is taking anything in a new direction, even if it means taking a few steps back to see if taking the left road would lead to a far different outcome than where the right road has taken us. No one has invented anything without failures, or 'didn't work as well as I' or complete accidents and unintentionals.
"Moving forward." What does that even mean? Sounds to me like a generic buzz word that has no definition. Much like the term "innovation" is around here lately.
The current system is not perfect. Not by a long shot. But if their goal is to integrate buying and selling more deeply into a social experience, or make it take effort to shape the economy they want in their game, than an auction house is most likely not the answer.
We had an auction house in early beta. They didn't like what it did to the economy. So they tried something else. It's clumsy and can really use a search function and more features, but it works. I'm making money with it. Buying what I want.
This is where innovation comes in.
Which, by the way, the definition of is not "what I like is innovation."
New direction doesn't always mean the right direction though. And this is the step in wrong direction.
I also find it ironic that you say innovation doesn't mean 'what i like in innovation' and yet you defend this archaic model of trading? to me it seems like for you innovation means 'what i like in innovation' and not what is more convenient for others.
There are lot of other places where changes are required in MMOS but why mess around with perfectly working system?
And if you don't like buzz words stop using the word 'innovation' in your posts. Too much double standards going on in your post bud. You are all over the place.
Seem very much the case. Dunno what's the problem. IF you are into trading you don't really want to use guild store much anyway. And if you are NOT into trading than I'm not sure what bothers you anyway... Is it maybe that you can't be arsed trading but still want a system to trade for you? Trivialize the matters, get spoon fed, etc...
I personaly have done at least 20 trades talking through chat since 4.4. Works great.
Originally posted by Nebell I honestly doubt the usefulness of the current system. In theory, it can work. In reality, it's complete garbage. Each guild is allowed to have up to 500 members. You can have a max of 5 guilds, totalling 2499 possible players who will sell items to you. That is fine and all, but the leaders of each guild will be pressed to have only active members. This system forces them to clean guilds as often as possible. Having 5 guilds means you won't feel like being "at home". You will never get to learn most of the "guildies". Going afk for a few days will probably have you kicked out of the guild(s), forcing you to find up to 5 new guilds and explain to 5 guild masters WHY they should accept you instead of a bunch of other guys, who are waiting in line to snatched that 500th spot. This will lead to elitist trader guilds with players who are selling the best items between themselves, not allowing access to them to the public. Not to mention other small things, like having to swap between 5 guilds when you're looking for the best and cheapest item. That is just annoying. I'm not sure who decided that this system is good, or why was it implemented, because it makes no sense at all.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
Originally posted by Nebell I honestly doubt the usefulness of the current system. In theory, it can work. In reality, it's complete garbage. Each guild is allowed to have up to 500 members. You can have a max of 5 guilds, totalling 2499 possible players who will sell items to you. That is fine and all, but the leaders of each guild will be pressed to have only active members. This system forces them to clean guilds as often as possible. Having 5 guilds means you won't feel like being "at home". You will never get to learn most of the "guildies". Going afk for a few days will probably have you kicked out of the guild(s), forcing you to find up to 5 new guilds and explain to 5 guild masters WHY they should accept you instead of a bunch of other guys, who are waiting in line to snatched that 500th spot. This will lead to elitist trader guilds with players who are selling the best items between themselves, not allowing access to them to the public. Not to mention other small things, like having to swap between 5 guilds when you're looking for the best and cheapest item. That is just annoying. I'm not sure who decided that this system is good, or why was it implemented, because it makes no sense at all.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
I find this quite refreshing and searching different markets isn't that much of a problem or timesink.
I disagree. This is not innovation. I have nothing against innovation. I was one of the few who actually loved Age of Conan. This is just unnecessary complication. My nature drives me to be as effective as possible. I see no logic in browsing 5 different auction houses (this becomes even more tedious if I'm buying different types of items) when there's a posibility to do it all from one place. Time is what we desire more of, but waste carelessly.
Originally posted by Nebell I honestly doubt the usefulness of the current system. In theory, it can work. In reality, it's complete garbage. Each guild is allowed to have up to 500 members. You can have a max of 5 guilds, totalling 2499 possible players who will sell items to you. That is fine and all, but the leaders of each guild will be pressed to have only active members. This system forces them to clean guilds as often as possible. Having 5 guilds means you won't feel like being "at home". You will never get to learn most of the "guildies". Going afk for a few days will probably have you kicked out of the guild(s), forcing you to find up to 5 new guilds and explain to 5 guild masters WHY they should accept you instead of a bunch of other guys, who are waiting in line to snatched that 500th spot. This will lead to elitist trader guilds with players who are selling the best items between themselves, not allowing access to them to the public. Not to mention other small things, like having to swap between 5 guilds when you're looking for the best and cheapest item. That is just annoying. I'm not sure who decided that this system is good, or why was it implemented, because it makes no sense at all.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
I find this quite refreshing and searching different markets isn't that much of a problem or timesink.
I disagree. This is not innovation. I have nothing against innovation. I was one of the few who actually loved Age of Conan. This is just unnecessary complication. My nature drives me to be as effective as possible. I see no logic in browsing 5 different auction houses (this becomes even more tedious if I'm buying different types of items) when there's a posibility to do it all from one place. Time is what we desire more of, but waste carelessly.
Its a neccessarity because
a) global economy with AH does not work on mega servers, because tehre are simply to many people to keep items rare.... It will kill theneed for crafting, and kill the whole economy, excample GW2
b) local economy does not work either, because traveling distance with the shrines is nihil
this choice was made to divide the mega econnomy in smaller parts..
just become member of 3 or more mega trading guilds, and it works great.... Its just a mindset.
EDIT, in the future they need to add bigger guildsize tough... Because players will drop the game and become inactive, reducing your 500 members to like 120 active members, which is definately to small.
Max guildsize should be atleast 1000 prferably 2000
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Nebell I honestly doubt the usefulness of the current system. In theory, it can work. In reality, it's complete garbage. Each guild is allowed to have up to 500 members. You can have a max of 5 guilds, totalling 2499 possible players who will sell items to you. That is fine and all, but the leaders of each guild will be pressed to have only active members. This system forces them to clean guilds as often as possible. Having 5 guilds means you won't feel like being "at home". You will never get to learn most of the "guildies". Going afk for a few days will probably have you kicked out of the guild(s), forcing you to find up to 5 new guilds and explain to 5 guild masters WHY they should accept you instead of a bunch of other guys, who are waiting in line to snatched that 500th spot. This will lead to elitist trader guilds with players who are selling the best items between themselves, not allowing access to them to the public. Not to mention other small things, like having to swap between 5 guilds when you're looking for the best and cheapest item. That is just annoying. I'm not sure who decided that this system is good, or why was it implemented, because it makes no sense at all.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
I find this quite refreshing and searching different markets isn't that much of a problem or timesink.
I disagree. This is not innovation. I have nothing against innovation. I was one of the few who actually loved Age of Conan. This is just unnecessary complication. My nature drives me to be as effective as possible. I see no logic in browsing 5 different auction houses (this becomes even more tedious if I'm buying different types of items) when there's a posibility to do it all from one place. Time is what we desire more of, but waste carelessly.
Its a neccessarity [sic: necessity] because
a) global economy with AH does not work on mega servers, because there are simply to many people to keep items rare.... It will kill the need for crafting, and kill the whole economy, example GW2
make items rare, make items soul bound, add durability to keep demand high.
b) local economy does not work either, because traveling distance with the shrines is nihil
remove teleportation, mounts should have a use besides a vanity item.
Personally I think that the official statement is just an excuse. There are ways to make this work.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
You should probably try only joining one trading guild instead of 5. Maybe make one of your guilds you join a small one where you can learn the names of folks. Thats the best part of being able to be in 5 guilds, each one can serve its own unique purpose catered around your choice.
You are kind of right about the elitist trader guilds, I was lucky enough to join one early. But dems the perks to early access.
The Auction system splinters the economy, not everyone will need the same things, it costs too much too post anything and makes people feel isolated. Non crafting/trading guilds are having issues finding players, people will get tired of trying to maintain a healthy population in their guilds due to inactivity and the such. The list of problems goes on and on and on.
Splintering the players into guilds for buying/selling/crafting does the opposite of creating a community, or causing people to be more social.
It's a horrible system and should be changed to a global system with a guild system still available to those who want to use it.
One thing I noticed is all the horrible, backwards thinking ideas and demodernization "features" in this game people love to applaud not realizing why the industry moved on from those horrible ideas years ago. The defense will end soon enough and people will see the game has a solid foundation but several badly implemented or thought out systems and "features". Things that push players away and cause players issues and will be hurting the game as people are finding out now that is already starting to happen.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
And here i was thinking that innovation is moving forward and not backwards. No AH is as innovative as replacing perfectly working round tires with square ones.
You would be wrong about innovation then.
Innovation is taking anything in a new direction, even if it means taking a few steps back to see if taking the left road would lead to a far different outcome than where the right road has taken us. No one has invented anything without failures, or 'didn't work as well as I' or complete accidents and unintentionals.
"Moving forward." What does that even mean? Sounds to me like a generic buzz word that has no definition. Much like the term "innovation" is around here lately.
The current system is not perfect. Not by a long shot. But if their goal is to integrate buying and selling more deeply into a social experience, or make it take effort to shape the economy they want in their game, than an auction house is most likely not the answer.
We had an auction house in early beta. They didn't like what it did to the economy. So they tried something else. It's clumsy and can really use a search function and more features, but it works. I'm making money with it. Buying what I want.
This is where innovation comes in.
Which, by the way, the definition of is not "what I like is innovation."
New direction doesn't always mean the right direction though. And this is the step in wrong direction.
I also find it ironic that you say innovation doesn't mean 'what i like in innovation' and yet you defend this archaic model of trading? to me it seems like for you innovation means 'what i like in innovation' and not what is more convenient for others.
There are lot of other places where changes are required in MMOS but why mess around with perfectly working system?
And if you don't like buzz words stop using the word 'innovation' in your posts. Too much double standards going on in your post bud. You are all over the place.
I thought I already said mistakes can be made and that the system can use some quality of life improvements. Or did you skip over that in favor of arguing?
Innovation is as I stated, feel free to provide another definition. Where am I contradicting myself, exactly? It's a market system modern MMOs are not using, and taken in a new direction with guild stores and tying it to PvP. I don't like the move toward "action combat" that doesn't mean it's not innovation in the MMO genre.
There is no irony here, it's incomprehension.
Perfectly working as seen in GW2? I'm sure there are glowing reviews about that economy, right? "Convenience" also leads to things like pay sixty bucks for a lvl 90. More convenience always = good, I'm sure. There is a balance to be struck of course, but arguing 'convenience' on it's own I don't view as a positive to the genre. As I said before, the current system isn't perfect. QoL issues abound, but it's got heart.
I defined innovation. Buzz words are by definition fashionable to use, and have little meaning. As I defined it, and made clear how I was using it and not just 'throwing it out there without context,' it isn't a buzz word. Especially as I was responding to someone who used the word first.
Originally posted by Nebell I honestly doubt the usefulness of the current system. In theory, it can work. In reality, it's complete garbage. Each guild is allowed to have up to 500 members. You can have a max of 5 guilds, totalling 2499 possible players who will sell items to you. That is fine and all, but the leaders of each guild will be pressed to have only active members. This system forces them to clean guilds as often as possible. Having 5 guilds means you won't feel like being "at home". You will never get to learn most of the "guildies". Going afk for a few days will probably have you kicked out of the guild(s), forcing you to find up to 5 new guilds and explain to 5 guild masters WHY they should accept you instead of a bunch of other guys, who are waiting in line to snatched that 500th spot. This will lead to elitist trader guilds with players who are selling the best items between themselves, not allowing access to them to the public. Not to mention other small things, like having to swap between 5 guilds when you're looking for the best and cheapest item. That is just annoying. I'm not sure who decided that this system is good, or why was it implemented, because it makes no sense at all.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
I find this quite refreshing and searching different markets isn't that much of a problem or timesink.
I disagree. This is not innovation. I have nothing against innovation. I was one of the few who actually loved Age of Conan. This is just unnecessary complication. My nature drives me to be as effective as possible. I see no logic in browsing 5 different auction houses (this becomes even more tedious if I'm buying different types of items) when there's a posibility to do it all from one place. Time is what we desire more of, but waste carelessly.
Its a neccessarity [sic: necessity] because
a) global economy with AH does not work on mega servers, because there are simply to many people to keep items rare.... It will kill the need for crafting, and kill the whole economy, example GW2
make items rare, make items soul bound, add durability to keep demand high.
b) local economy does not work either, because traveling distance with the shrines is nihil
remove teleportation, mounts should have a use besides a vanity item.
Personally I think that the official statement is just an excuse. There are ways to make this work.
What Lord said is more true to MMOs and the history
What YOU said is what is WRONG with AH and the history.
Comments
I think what most people envisioned was that you just join a trade or merchant guild, when you want to actually buy (or sell?) something. You wouldn't be in that guild all the time.
Not sure how this works alongside guild shops? Guild shops only exist in the AvA area, but can be used by anyone who passes by?
Yeah guild stores in AvA are the same as your usual trade guild but everyone can buy from it not just the guild members.
This gives you tens of thousands of potential customers since you can guest wherever you like. You need a keep to have one open though.
The real interesting thing is that you have players going "nothing new," "no innovation," "feels like playing the same game" and yet the moment anyone tries something we get this. "The industry moved on!" "It's 2014!" "Omg, why didn't they do it like X game?" from the exact same people.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but if you want progress or something less cookie cutter, criticizing because it isn't like what has already been done is not the way to do it.
Not to mention half of your "problems" are what if scenarios that you haven't given any evidence for that you are using as "proof" of an issue that probably hasn't even happened yet if at all.
And here i was thinking that innovation is moving forward and not backwards. No AH is as innovative as replacing perfectly working round tires with square ones.
I'm one of those players, and I never even thought about economy or auction house if I didnt like a new game not bringing anything new to the table. When it comes to trading in MMO's I want as painless experience as possible, it's just something I have to do and I dont want it to steal my play time from the real gameplay which is combat, crafting, pve, pvp, exploring, story, and the like, NOT some boring ass trading that you have to do just to have some gold.
Never thought of that. I think that is the best idea or alternative to an auction system I have heard yet. Definitely would promote the guild in a big way, as long as they were fair in the pricing. And if not, you move on to the next guild market.
Well this guild system well just make people into number in guild and honest no one care to learn to know you if are in big guild so yeah in way the auctions system make trade guild worth in way to interact with other guild member of those guild for at the end of day you are just number nothing else.
But PvE and PvP guild will/can be more off tight community very everyone know each other and help each other of you dont need to be more few people in there so when hype and lay down when come to trade guild i think more and more people will start look for PvE and PvP guild if not while the lvl the do so at the end game at lest i think so.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/22qatm/as_a_former_wow_player_who_gold_capped_here_are_a/
2) No auction house.
Coming from a Wind Trader like me, you might expect me to be outraged at the lack of a public AH. Nope, not even the slightest bit upset. Yes, it is true that the biggest reason I gold capped in WoW was because of a public AH.
You may be asking "how can you not be upset that you are limited to 30 listings across a maximum of 5 AHs?"
When I started to play ESO, I noticed HUGE difference between this and WoW. In fact, it's something that WoW is suffering big time from. Care to guess? Yep. There are only TWO servers! People from the same region (NA vs EU) connect to virtually the same server. I say virtually because, from what I can tell, players are actually randomly slotted to one of many servers rather than having to select a server from a list. This is going to be huge for ESO because it will always ensure there is a proper balance of players in a given area. You will never log into the game and experience overcrowding nor complete vacancy, two things that players constantly complain about on WoW.
Because of this, which I enjoy far more than a public AH, there actually can't be an AH. Just imagine how overcrowded and flooded the AH will be. Not to mention the amount of undercutting that would happen.
Having multiple AHs also stimulates other social activities in the game, ranging from encouraging players to create larger guilds instead of a thousand smaller ones to participating in the Alliance War to take control of nodes and have your guild's store public. This is something WoW severely lacked and caused players to park their asses in SW all day and play the AH (including myself).
My final verdict: Not having a public AH is a good thing and for the better of ESO in the long run.
You would be wrong about innovation then.
Innovation is taking anything in a new direction, even if it means taking a few steps back to see if taking the left road would lead to a far different outcome than where the right road has taken us. No one has invented anything without failures, or 'didn't work as well as I' or complete accidents and unintentionals.
"Moving forward." What does that even mean? Sounds to me like a generic buzz word that has no definition. Much like the term "innovation" is around here lately.
The current system is not perfect. Not by a long shot. But if their goal is to integrate buying and selling more deeply into a social experience, or make it take effort to shape the economy they want in their game, than an auction house is most likely not the answer.
We had an auction house in early beta. They didn't like what it did to the economy. So they tried something else. It's clumsy and can really use a search function and more features, but it works. I'm making money with it. Buying what I want.
This is where innovation comes in.
Which, by the way, the definition of is not "what I like is innovation."
In my guild I wont be purging people for the very fact that a lot of them will make making friends in the trade guild.
The only people I will be kicking from my trade guild is the people who are inactive after 1 week after the early access grace period has eneded, because it means they have not bought the game. Other then that, I will never boot anyone out of my 500 member guild just for the reasons you mention. People have made friends with each other, and should be allowed to form years worth of friendships they can come back to in the future.
my invitation to the trade guild is an open door policy. If you need a Trade Guild like you describe feel free to send me a tell in game and I'll try to get you in when someone leaves. My info for the guild is in the trade forum under the guild. Feel free to send me in game mail for an invite.
New direction doesn't always mean the right direction though. And this is the step in wrong direction.
I also find it ironic that you say innovation doesn't mean 'what i like in innovation' and yet you defend this archaic model of trading? to me it seems like for you innovation means 'what i like in innovation' and not what is more convenient for others.
There are lot of other places where changes are required in MMOS but why mess around with perfectly working system?
And if you don't like buzz words stop using the word 'innovation' in your posts. Too much double standards going on in your post bud. You are all over the place.
Seem very much the case. Dunno what's the problem. IF you are into trading you don't really want to use guild store much anyway. And if you are NOT into trading than I'm not sure what bothers you anyway... Is it maybe that you can't be arsed trading but still want a system to trade for you? Trivialize the matters, get spoon fed, etc...
I personaly have done at least 20 trades talking through chat since 4.4. Works great.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
- Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild
I find this quite refreshing and searching different markets isn't that much of a problem or timesink.
Innovation and new things always are difficult to adapt to. That's not a new thing. The term guild wakes certain expectations. In a MMO we expect that a guild equates to a coalition of friends or in your words, our home.
TESO offers us the possibility to form such a home. On the other hand it offers us the possibility to join other guilds, guilds that server the purpose of the actual historical meaning of what a guild is:
"A guild /?d/ is an association of artisans or merchants who control the practice of their craft in a particular town. The earliest types of guild were formed as confraternities of workers. They were organized in a manner something between a professional association, trade union, a cartel, and a secret society. They often depended on grants of letters patent by a monarch or other authority to enforce the flow of trade to their self-employed members, and to retain ownership of tools and the supply of materials. A lasting legacy of traditional guilds are the guildhalls constructed and used as meeting places."
- Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild
I find this quite refreshing and searching different markets isn't that much of a problem or timesink.
I disagree.
This is not innovation. I have nothing against innovation. I was one of the few who actually loved Age of Conan.
This is just unnecessary complication. My nature drives me to be as effective as possible. I see no logic in browsing 5 different auction houses (this becomes even more tedious if I'm buying different types of items) when there's a posibility to do it all from one place.
Time is what we desire more of, but waste carelessly.
Its a neccessarity because
a) global economy with AH does not work on mega servers, because tehre are simply to many people to keep items rare.... It will kill theneed for crafting, and kill the whole economy, excample GW2
b) local economy does not work either, because traveling distance with the shrines is nihil
this choice was made to divide the mega econnomy in smaller parts..
just become member of 3 or more mega trading guilds, and it works great.... Its just a mindset.
EDIT, in the future they need to add bigger guildsize tough... Because players will drop the game and become inactive, reducing your 500 members to like 120 active members, which is definately to small.
Max guildsize should be atleast 1000 prferably 2000
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Personally I think that the official statement is just an excuse. There are ways to make this work.
You should probably try only joining one trading guild instead of 5. Maybe make one of your guilds you join a small one where you can learn the names of folks. Thats the best part of being able to be in 5 guilds, each one can serve its own unique purpose catered around your choice.
You are kind of right about the elitist trader guilds, I was lucky enough to join one early. But dems the perks to early access.
That's just, like, my opinion, man.
I thought I already said mistakes can be made and that the system can use some quality of life improvements. Or did you skip over that in favor of arguing?
Innovation is as I stated, feel free to provide another definition. Where am I contradicting myself, exactly? It's a market system modern MMOs are not using, and taken in a new direction with guild stores and tying it to PvP. I don't like the move toward "action combat" that doesn't mean it's not innovation in the MMO genre.
There is no irony here, it's incomprehension.
Perfectly working as seen in GW2? I'm sure there are glowing reviews about that economy, right? "Convenience" also leads to things like pay sixty bucks for a lvl 90. More convenience always = good, I'm sure. There is a balance to be struck of course, but arguing 'convenience' on it's own I don't view as a positive to the genre. As I said before, the current system isn't perfect. QoL issues abound, but it's got heart.
I defined innovation. Buzz words are by definition fashionable to use, and have little meaning. As I defined it, and made clear how I was using it and not just 'throwing it out there without context,' it isn't a buzz word. Especially as I was responding to someone who used the word first.
No double standards, reading incomprehension.
What Lord said is more true to MMOs and the history
What YOU said is what is WRONG with AH and the history.