Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
Try responding to the actual arguments in his post. I see the same things in the system that he does; I'm enjoying this more than any other MMO I've run through. So there is at least one MMO vet here who agrees with him and not with you.
Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
I agree. It's just so much more of the same stuff we have been seeing for the past 10 years. I don't find this game to be the pinnacle of PvE MMO's. I tend to lean more towards EQ1 as there was risk vs reward, some freedom from NPC's telling you to do chores for them, unique loot with rare spawns, alignment which you could destroy and rebuild....and on and on.
ESO has dull universal loot tables for the most part. Limited freedom, no risk vs reward in PvE, it doesn't feel like a virtual world as much as it feels like a cluttered quest fest. I don't want to be force fed a hero story. Maybe I don't want to be the "hero" can I destroy my faction with my home town and be forced to move to a different living spot?
ESO doesn't hold a candle to ANY of the major old school MMO's in terms of PvE.
yeah i have a sorcerer, i havent found anything yet where i needed other people to complete the content and thats including all of the Vet1 area i just completed... outside of 5 man dungeons, and thats including the public group dungeons.. soloed them, soloed basically all the world bosses unless others were already doing them.. but at no point did i need to look for other people... even on my nightblade did 90% of the content upto level 43 on him solo.
Heh I did 100% of my character progression in any MMO I've played aside from open dungeons solo. I guild up for RP and PVP, not PVE content, it's always easy to complete 90% of content, has been since I started playing MMORPG's in 2002. They do this on purpose. They can't rely on everyone having a group at all times, if they could this might be different. AS it stands now, how dumb would it be to make most progression and content impossible without a solid group? People would only play during peak times, these games (the sub variety) would be ghost towns at all other hours. Most would probably quit in the first week.
I'd say if you can solo everything at your level (all bosses and group related content), your build is OP there's not much more to it than that. The glories of open skill systems .
i guess you never played everquest, lineage, FFXI or any of the other grind games that literally forced you into groups to level in any kind of effectiveness
Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
As a vet looking at themepark design, I can't see a better direction for them than where they're heading. They're essentially trying to be online versions of popular videogame RPGs anyway. They might as well employ what makes those games popular, narrative, better presentation ( compared to stale text boxes), less grindy mechanics, leveling through narrative pacing rather than arbitrary mechanics like XP loss which is nothing but a time sink.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For me, the quests are the same as other MMOs but the carrot that they provide. I simply love "SKILL POINTS" and when I get one or find sky shrines going through all the quests it makes those quests alot more enjoyable. It makes me want to quest for hours. lol
yeah i have a sorcerer, i havent found anything yet where i needed other people to complete the content and thats including all of the Vet1 area i just completed... outside of 5 man dungeons, and thats including the public group dungeons.. soloed them, soloed basically all the world bosses unless others were already doing them.. but at no point did i need to look for other people... even on my nightblade did 90% of the content upto level 43 on him solo.
Heh I did 100% of my character progression in any MMO I've played aside from open dungeons solo. I guild up for RP and PVP, not PVE content, it's always easy to complete 90% of content, has been since I started playing MMORPG's in 2002. They do this on purpose. They can't rely on everyone having a group at all times, if they could this might be different. AS it stands now, how dumb would it be to make most progression and content impossible without a solid group? People would only play during peak times, these games (the sub variety) would be ghost towns at all other hours. Most would probably quit in the first week.
I'd say if you can solo everything at your level (all bosses and group related content), your build is OP there's not much more to it than that. The glories of open skill systems .
i guess you never played everquest, lineage, FFXI or any of the other grind games that literally forced you into groups to level in any kind of effectiveness
Nope I didn't ( I played EQOA though :P), players like me were the reason they took a turn in other directions. I played games like SWG and DAOC. Socialization was forced in different ways, rather than making content impossible or employing arbitrary time sinks.(xp loss).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I must say I'm enjoying this particular thread. I agree with the OP to an extent, and others as well. Whats interesting about ESO is the feeling of freshness to the pve, which is mostly due to the skill system and the voice overs. However, as i continue to level in pve, I can begin to see behind the curtain and am starting to look for another way to level, even though im enjoying the story like i haven't in a game for a long time.
I think a lot of us have simply outgrown the genre. I used to be all about combat when I was younger. Now i'm interested in crafting, economy, open world immersion. (I liked Vanguards world a whole lot despite its technical incompetency.) I think PINNACLE might be too much as a word, but I can see the OP point that they made pve fresh for a lot of us again.
I think we are seeing the last themeparks as we know them being made though. Technology is catching up to the players and a future of streamlined sandbox and open world immersion seems very likely. More players are continuing their gaming hobby into their advanced ages as well, which means content needs to change to match that demographics evolving interests. More and more players seem to be looking for depth and an actual world versus the age old give em combat strategy.
Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
Try responding to the actual arguments in his post. I see the same things in the system that he does; I'm enjoying this more than any other MMO I've run through. So there is at least one MMO vet here who agrees with him and not with you.
Who do you think you are to tell me that I posted wrong? PC Gamer made my points for me, why restate them? Attack the messenger instead of prove me wrong That's weak. I agree with their review and was using their review as a basis for my argument against the OP's ridiculous assertion that ESO is the pinnacle of the PVE experience.
EDIT: ok, let me tell you why can confidently say that ESO is not the pinnacle.
First, let's define pinnacle: the top, the best the standard by which others will be judged.
Responsiveness is weak, combat animations are just silly looking and the questing is dull as cardboard (run and talk to this dude, run and talk to that girl, now go and talk to this guy) so much clicking to get what I need to do what I need to do. Some of the stories were entertaining, for sure and I did enjoy the resolution on some of the quest lines - the ones that worked anyway.
Broken quests and bugged NPC's make it one of the worst PvE experiences I've had, to be honest.
The UI is lacking, seriously lacking without player mods.
No large scale instanced raids (PvE) will sink this game since these "Adventure Zones" really don't have what it takes to land and keep a hardcore PvE crowd.
Those are just the reasons off the top of my head.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with enjoying the MMO you're playing and I hope you find years of enjoyment and that Zenimax makes millions. However making silly and unfounded proclamations is as bad as posting flame bait negative threads.
The pinnacle of MMO PvE was pre-Abyssea FFXI. Vanilla/BC era WoW is a solid #2. Vanguard, for all of its flaws, was up there as well.
ESO is the latest in a long line of anti-social, online single player games with multiplayer elements masquerading as MMORPGs. Other players are at best non-entities, and at worst an active hindrance to anything you happen to be doing at the time. Once you establish that this is, in fact, a single player game, then you need to compare it to other single player games. As an MMORPG, it offers nothing new. It's the same, recycled, regurgitated theme park nonsense with a different presentation and a bit more emphasis on trying to hide its rides. As a single player game, it is slightly above average. It looks worse and plays worse than Skyrim or say, Bioshock Infinite, and I'm not really a fan of either.
A proper MMORPG provides you with a world to create your own story in. It does not lead you by the hand from Point A to Point B, pigeonholing you into what it decides you need to be at any given moment. If this is what is to be considered the pinnacle of the genre in anything, then bury MMORPGs in a casket and never look back.
AS it stands now, how dumb would it be to make most progression and content impossible without a solid group?
For me, it's dumb that I have to pay $15 a month to play a game that doesn't require a group to progress. I personally need a developer to take the risk and make a game that isn't the same formula that we keep seeing. I prefer to spend $15 a month on a game that gives me a sense of community and pride. I want a challenge all the time, including finding a group, a spawn, etc. If I'm guaranteed to progress X amount every time I login, what's the point - you're just going through the motions for no good reason.
AS it stands now, how dumb would it be to make most progression and content impossible without a solid group?
For me, it's dumb that I have to pay $15 a month to play a game that doesn't require a group to progress. I personally need a developer to take the risk and make a game that isn't the same formula that we keep seeing. I prefer to spend $15 a month on a game that gives me a sense of community and pride. I want a challenge all the time, including finding a group, a spawn, etc. If I'm guaranteed to progress X amount every time I login, what's the point - you're just going through the motions for no good reason.
You might see some of these games soon, although I doubt any are going to focus on EQ style mechanics ( forced grouping). THey are going to be more community oriented though, games like the Repop, AA, CU, etc...
I'm talking more about themepark design above, as well as the mentality in that sub genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think we are seeing the last themeparks as we know them being made though. Technology is catching up to the players and a future of streamlined sandbox and open world immersion seems very likely. More players are continuing their gaming hobby into their advanced ages as well, which means content needs to change to match that demographics evolving interests. More and more players seem to be looking for depth and an actual world versus the age old give em combat strategy.
I agree, I think the next generation of MMOs s going to be more focused around a sandbox world, it's good to see that trend coming back and I can't wait to see how it turns out. If this does happen correctly I think the genre might have a second golden age. Black Desert is looking pretty decent.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months. Why is it still such a big deal?
If no end game raids and consistent veteran quest grinding (Wanna be end game quests to fill the void of no true PVE content.) is the pinnacle of MMO PVE than I will give up on MMORPG's.
Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
Try responding to the actual arguments in his post. I see the same things in the system that he does; I'm enjoying this more than any other MMO I've run through. So there is at least one MMO vet here who agrees with him and not with you.
Who do you think you are to tell me that I posted wrong? PC Gamer made my points for me, why restate them? Attack the messenger instead of prove me wrong That's weak. I agree with their review and was using their review as a basis for my argument against the OP's ridiculous assertion that ESO is the pinnacle of the PVE experience.
EDIT: ok, let me tell you why can confidently say that ESO is not the pinnacle.
First, let's define pinnacle: the top, the best the standard by which others will be judged.
Responsiveness is weak, combat animations are just silly looking and the questing is dull as cardboard (run and talk to this dude, run and talk to that girl, now go and talk to this guy) so much clicking to get what I need to do what I need to do. Some of the stories were entertaining, for sure and I did enjoy the resolution on some of the quest lines - the ones that worked anyway.
Broken quests and bugged NPC's make it one of the worst PvE experiences I've had, to be honest.
The UI is lacking, seriously lacking without player mods.
No large scale instanced raids (PvE) will sink this game since these "Adventure Zones" really don't have what it takes to land and keep a hardcore PvE crowd.
Those are just the reasons off the top of my head.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with enjoying the MMO you're playing and I hope you find years of enjoyment and that Zenimax makes millions. However making silly and unfounded proclamations is as bad as posting flame bait negative threads.
If you actually read what he said, which you didn't apparently, you'd see that he wasn't focusing on those things. He was focusing on the questing, writing, and the way that the game design wrapped you in a story. You pretty clearly aren't listening to the voice overs - your summary sounds to me like what you'd experience if you simply clicked through the dialogs, vectored to the waypoints, and ignored the story. The "so much clicking to get what I need to do" is the reveal. This game is grabbing people who approach it in a certain way, and getting dismissed (or attacked) from people who approach it in the ways that MMO players have been conditioned to do.
So, yes, if you simply want to get to the endgame, don't like questing or guided storylines, and get angry with software glitches in a new MMO then you won't have a good time. But if you're willing to approach the game on the terms that it was designed for it's a delight. Maybe you should try it in that spirit and see. This is the first game in a long time where I've found myself stopping and trying to figure out what the character I'm running would *like* to do, as opposed to simply gathering A to get B.
Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
Try responding to the actual arguments in his post. I see the same things in the system that he does; I'm enjoying this more than any other MMO I've run through. So there is at least one MMO vet here who agrees with him and not with you.
Who do you think you are to tell me that I posted wrong? PC Gamer made my points for me, why restate them? Attack the messenger instead of prove me wrong That's weak. I agree with their review and was using their review as a basis for my argument against the OP's ridiculous assertion that ESO is the pinnacle of the PVE experience.
EDIT: ok, let me tell you why can confidently say that ESO is not the pinnacle.
First, let's define pinnacle: the top, the best the standard by which others will be judged.
Responsiveness is weak, combat animations are just silly looking and the questing is dull as cardboard (run and talk to this dude, run and talk to that girl, now go and talk to this guy) so much clicking to get what I need to do what I need to do. Some of the stories were entertaining, for sure and I did enjoy the resolution on some of the quest lines - the ones that worked anyway.
Broken quests and bugged NPC's make it one of the worst PvE experiences I've had, to be honest.
The UI is lacking, seriously lacking without player mods.
No large scale instanced raids (PvE) will sink this game since these "Adventure Zones" really don't have what it takes to land and keep a hardcore PvE crowd.
Those are just the reasons off the top of my head.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with enjoying the MMO you're playing and I hope you find years of enjoyment and that Zenimax makes millions. However making silly and unfounded proclamations is as bad as posting flame bait negative threads.
If you actually read what he said, which you didn't apparently, you'd see that he wasn't focusing on those things. ..
I submitted those things because those make or break PvE. You can't say, "Pizza is the best food if you don't count soup, sandwiches, steaks or pasta."
By the way, I did say that I enjoyed some of the quest lines if you read what I typed. Yes, I listened to the voice overs most of the time, until I started getting bored with some of them.
I think we are seeing the last themeparks as we know them being made though. Technology is catching up to the players and a future of streamlined sandbox and open world immersion seems very likely. More players are continuing their gaming hobby into their advanced ages as well, which means content needs to change to match that demographics evolving interests. More and more players seem to be looking for depth and an actual world versus the age old give em combat strategy.
I agree, I think the next generation of MMOs s going to be more focused around a sandbox world, it's good to see that trend coming back and I can't wait to see how it turns out. If this does happen correctly I think the genre might have a second golden age. Black Desert is looking pretty decent.
I've been following Arche Age a bit, but keep hearing about Black Desert. I'm curious to see how the new hybrid f2play models will affect the motivation for making deeper games with more freedom. Meaning, those who sandbox will pay the subs, those used to themeparks can play for free as "content" players. Even though they don't spend money, they contribute to the overall world just by being there and playing.
. . . the next great mmorpg will probably be made 10 years from now by someone in their garage
I'm glad you found a way to convince yourself that you're doing something new and different but that's all you've done. No matter how you dress it up its still a quest stacking theme park ride.
Why do we keep getting these big development companies taking big titles and boiling them down to very small, very simple, very boring games?
You're right, it's exactly the same thing just delivered very well. I never tried to convince myself it's something new. I literally said in the OP that it's the same as any mmo on a technical level. Played a shitload of mmos, I've never enjoyed the leveling, ever. I REALLY enjoy it here, so something is different. At least for me.
And because big names are the only thing that sell anymore. No other company in any other form of entertainment has such a critcal, immature, close minded, and overall unhappy group of people to try to impress. When an mmo tries to copy something successful it gets written off as a wow-clone (rift, swtor, lotro, aion) When an MMO tries to bring in innovation it gets hated on even more or becomes the new cool mmo-to-hate (GW2, Darkfall, Warhammer, AoC) So what's the point? Don't blame companies when it's the cynical 80% of MMO gamers just like you that have brought the genre to this point.
Which is why MMOs were better when it was just games like DAoC, UO, Conquer and others before the genre exploded with WoW.
Finally someone talking sense around here.
You forgot so-called 'sandbox' gamers redefining that term every time a sandbox game with a feature or two they don't like is released, then label it a theme park & complain that nobody makes sandbox games anymore *cough*EQN*cough*
If I were to ever become a software developer, an MMO would be the absolute last game type I'd attempt. The community is just too immature & fickle, and double standards are the norm.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I'm not an expert on mmos I have played just a few and I play only pve content here are my thoughts :
TSW : has better quests ,better characters ,better dungeons
SWTOR : has better quests ,better narrative
Neverwinter, Terra, DCUO have better combat
GW2 has better combat, better quest system
I don't see how how ESO is any good in pve the only thing I like more and does best from any mmo I have played is crafting and the skill system.
When I first started playing ESO, I was like, "I played MMO's with these mechanics about seven years ago." The graphics are up to date but the Devs mindset feels old school.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'm not an expert on mmos I have played just a few and I play only pve content here are my thoughts :
TSW : has better quests ,better characters ,better dungeons
SWTOR : has better quests ,better narrative
Neverwinter, Terra, DCUO have better combat
GW2 has better combat, better quest system
I don't see how how ESO is any good in pve the only thing I like more and does best from any mmo I have played is crafting and the skill system.
When I first started playing ESO, I was like, "I played MMO's with these mechanics about seven years ago." The graphics are up to date but the Devs mindset feels old school.
Also don't forget how broken the game is with all the bugs they have right now.
If the levelling of a MMO is scaled to be soloable, is made so the player can easily do it without any allies, this levelling doesn't deserve the title of "Pinacle of MMO PvE". Tbh, I prefer the levelling of WoW vanilla than ESO's one, only because grouping in WoW vanilla was frequent.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
Originally posted by Prhyme Pinnacle of MMO PvE? ESO? I don't think you'll find many MMO vets that would agree with you. I think PC Gamer nailed it when they said that ESO "A few well-designed systems struggle to overcome lifeless presentation. Capable, but ultimately hard to recommend." I couldn't agree more. The game does nothing exceptionally better than other MMO's.
Try responding to the actual arguments in his post. I see the same things in the system that he does; I'm enjoying this more than any other MMO I've run through. So there is at least one MMO vet here who agrees with him and not with you.
Who do you think you are to tell me that I posted wrong? PC Gamer made my points for me, why restate them? Attack the messenger instead of prove me wrong That's weak. I agree with their review and was using their review as a basis for my argument against the OP's ridiculous assertion that ESO is the pinnacle of the PVE experience.
EDIT: ok, let me tell you why can confidently say that ESO is not the pinnacle.
First, let's define pinnacle: the top, the best the standard by which others will be judged.
Responsiveness is weak, combat animations are just silly looking and the questing is dull as cardboard (run and talk to this dude, run and talk to that girl, now go and talk to this guy) so much clicking to get what I need to do what I need to do. Some of the stories were entertaining, for sure and I did enjoy the resolution on some of the quest lines - the ones that worked anyway.
Broken quests and bugged NPC's make it one of the worst PvE experiences I've had, to be honest.
The UI is lacking, seriously lacking without player mods.
No large scale instanced raids (PvE) will sink this game since these "Adventure Zones" really don't have what it takes to land and keep a hardcore PvE crowd.
Those are just the reasons off the top of my head.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with enjoying the MMO you're playing and I hope you find years of enjoyment and that Zenimax makes millions. However making silly and unfounded proclamations is as bad as posting flame bait negative threads.
If you actually read what he said, which you didn't apparently, you'd see that he wasn't focusing on those things. ..
I submitted those things because those make or break PvE. You can't say, "Pizza is the best food if you don't count soup, sandwiches, steaks or pasta."
By the way, I did say that I enjoyed some of the quest lines if you read what I typed. Yes, I listened to the voice overs most of the time, until I started getting bored with some of them.
Outside of your first post you've made some actually very solid points. Here's the thing though, You're going to a completely technical level on every aspect possible which makes sense with a word like "pinnacle" in the title. Here's the thing, although I do believe the leveling experience as whole defeats the leveling experience as a whole of any MMO currently available. What I really mean is how enjoyable something I normally despise has been. Not "well because it doesn't have this this and that it can't receive a title like pinnacle"
Maybe several other MMOs are miles ahead of eso on every point that you made. But if they simply are not as fun, if I do not enjoy them as much are they really better? For example, You can tell me how much technically better MMOs are today than my favorite MMO was back in 2002. You can show me proof that a game from 2014 has better graphics, more in depth progression systems, way more skills, top of the line combat, advanced social features and more things to do... But if I just had a ton more fun in my game from 2002, If I just enjoyed it a hell of a lot more. Which game is really better? That's my point about ESO.. No matter how much everything is technically the same or not as technically advanced, For whatever reason, It's more enjoyable.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months. Why is it still such a big deal?
I have to agree with the OP's original statement to an extent. The questing is really great in the sense you don't feel like your doing the same thing over and over again. The questing system to me is great. I'm just about to hit Vet 2 and it does actually get quite hard at this level. While it was said in beta the game really opens up at level 10 I can say it opens up again even further once you hit the Vet ranks. You essentially get to do what you did from 1-49 in vet 1-5 for one of the other factions zones and then again from 6-10. It literally takes a whole zone to get 1 level from just doing all the quests. I haven't really done any grinding and only a small amount of pvp in that time. With only playing for a few hours each evening im going on 4 or 5 days just getting from vet1 to vet 2. Up until this point in the game I felt like I got through 1-49 fairly quickly. Now I find myself not being able to take on as big of packs as I was in the earlier stages of the game. I have to be more careful and pick and choose which mobs to fight. I was off work for the first week of game launch so I did put a lot of hours into that. Right now I feel like I've still got a solid 150-200 hrs of game to play through if I were to explore the rest of the zones completely. To me this is great value in a game at launch to have that much content. On the other hand the biggest problem I've had thus far has been the lag that has hindered the server over the past week. I can say that launch day for me was much smoother than what I'm facing now. The lag is making dungeons pretty much unplayable for me. It seems more people have caught on that the game really is great. There are some issues that need to be ironed out and once that is done there is a lot to see and do. The devs seem to be on the right track with getting bugged quest fixed, now if we could see an improvement to server stability then all will be well.
Comments
Try responding to the actual arguments in his post. I see the same things in the system that he does; I'm enjoying this more than any other MMO I've run through. So there is at least one MMO vet here who agrees with him and not with you.
I agree. It's just so much more of the same stuff we have been seeing for the past 10 years. I don't find this game to be the pinnacle of PvE MMO's. I tend to lean more towards EQ1 as there was risk vs reward, some freedom from NPC's telling you to do chores for them, unique loot with rare spawns, alignment which you could destroy and rebuild....and on and on.
ESO has dull universal loot tables for the most part. Limited freedom, no risk vs reward in PvE, it doesn't feel like a virtual world as much as it feels like a cluttered quest fest. I don't want to be force fed a hero story. Maybe I don't want to be the "hero" can I destroy my faction with my home town and be forced to move to a different living spot?
ESO doesn't hold a candle to ANY of the major old school MMO's in terms of PvE.
i guess you never played everquest, lineage, FFXI or any of the other grind games that literally forced you into groups to level in any kind of effectiveness
As a vet looking at themepark design, I can't see a better direction for them than where they're heading. They're essentially trying to be online versions of popular videogame RPGs anyway. They might as well employ what makes those games popular, narrative, better presentation ( compared to stale text boxes), less grindy mechanics, leveling through narrative pacing rather than arbitrary mechanics like XP loss which is nothing but a time sink.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Nope I didn't ( I played EQOA though :P), players like me were the reason they took a turn in other directions. I played games like SWG and DAOC. Socialization was forced in different ways, rather than making content impossible or employing arbitrary time sinks.(xp loss).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I must say I'm enjoying this particular thread. I agree with the OP to an extent, and others as well. Whats interesting about ESO is the feeling of freshness to the pve, which is mostly due to the skill system and the voice overs. However, as i continue to level in pve, I can begin to see behind the curtain and am starting to look for another way to level, even though im enjoying the story like i haven't in a game for a long time.
I think a lot of us have simply outgrown the genre. I used to be all about combat when I was younger. Now i'm interested in crafting, economy, open world immersion. (I liked Vanguards world a whole lot despite its technical incompetency.) I think PINNACLE might be too much as a word, but I can see the OP point that they made pve fresh for a lot of us again.
I think we are seeing the last themeparks as we know them being made though. Technology is catching up to the players and a future of streamlined sandbox and open world immersion seems very likely. More players are continuing their gaming hobby into their advanced ages as well, which means content needs to change to match that demographics evolving interests. More and more players seem to be looking for depth and an actual world versus the age old give em combat strategy.
Who do you think you are to tell me that I posted wrong? PC Gamer made my points for me, why restate them? Attack the messenger instead of prove me wrong That's weak. I agree with their review and was using their review as a basis for my argument against the OP's ridiculous assertion that ESO is the pinnacle of the PVE experience.
EDIT: ok, let me tell you why can confidently say that ESO is not the pinnacle.
First, let's define pinnacle: the top, the best the standard by which others will be judged.
Responsiveness is weak, combat animations are just silly looking and the questing is dull as cardboard (run and talk to this dude, run and talk to that girl, now go and talk to this guy) so much clicking to get what I need to do what I need to do. Some of the stories were entertaining, for sure and I did enjoy the resolution on some of the quest lines - the ones that worked anyway.
Broken quests and bugged NPC's make it one of the worst PvE experiences I've had, to be honest.
The UI is lacking, seriously lacking without player mods.
No large scale instanced raids (PvE) will sink this game since these "Adventure Zones" really don't have what it takes to land and keep a hardcore PvE crowd.
Those are just the reasons off the top of my head.
Edit 2: There's nothing wrong with enjoying the MMO you're playing and I hope you find years of enjoyment and that Zenimax makes millions. However making silly and unfounded proclamations is as bad as posting flame bait negative threads.
The pinnacle of MMO PvE was pre-Abyssea FFXI. Vanilla/BC era WoW is a solid #2. Vanguard, for all of its flaws, was up there as well.
ESO is the latest in a long line of anti-social, online single player games with multiplayer elements masquerading as MMORPGs. Other players are at best non-entities, and at worst an active hindrance to anything you happen to be doing at the time. Once you establish that this is, in fact, a single player game, then you need to compare it to other single player games. As an MMORPG, it offers nothing new. It's the same, recycled, regurgitated theme park nonsense with a different presentation and a bit more emphasis on trying to hide its rides. As a single player game, it is slightly above average. It looks worse and plays worse than Skyrim or say, Bioshock Infinite, and I'm not really a fan of either.
A proper MMORPG provides you with a world to create your own story in. It does not lead you by the hand from Point A to Point B, pigeonholing you into what it decides you need to be at any given moment. If this is what is to be considered the pinnacle of the genre in anything, then bury MMORPGs in a casket and never look back.
My blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Strayfe/
For me, it's dumb that I have to pay $15 a month to play a game that doesn't require a group to progress. I personally need a developer to take the risk and make a game that isn't the same formula that we keep seeing. I prefer to spend $15 a month on a game that gives me a sense of community and pride. I want a challenge all the time, including finding a group, a spawn, etc. If I'm guaranteed to progress X amount every time I login, what's the point - you're just going through the motions for no good reason.
You might see some of these games soon, although I doubt any are going to focus on EQ style mechanics ( forced grouping). THey are going to be more community oriented though, games like the Repop, AA, CU, etc...
I'm talking more about themepark design above, as well as the mentality in that sub genre.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree, I think the next generation of MMOs s going to be more focused around a sandbox world, it's good to see that trend coming back and I can't wait to see how it turns out. If this does happen correctly I think the genre might have a second golden age. Black Desert is looking pretty decent.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months.
Why is it still such a big deal?
If you actually read what he said, which you didn't apparently, you'd see that he wasn't focusing on those things. He was focusing on the questing, writing, and the way that the game design wrapped you in a story. You pretty clearly aren't listening to the voice overs - your summary sounds to me like what you'd experience if you simply clicked through the dialogs, vectored to the waypoints, and ignored the story. The "so much clicking to get what I need to do" is the reveal. This game is grabbing people who approach it in a certain way, and getting dismissed (or attacked) from people who approach it in the ways that MMO players have been conditioned to do.
So, yes, if you simply want to get to the endgame, don't like questing or guided storylines, and get angry with software glitches in a new MMO then you won't have a good time. But if you're willing to approach the game on the terms that it was designed for it's a delight. Maybe you should try it in that spirit and see. This is the first game in a long time where I've found myself stopping and trying to figure out what the character I'm running would *like* to do, as opposed to simply gathering A to get B.
I submitted those things because those make or break PvE. You can't say, "Pizza is the best food if you don't count soup, sandwiches, steaks or pasta."
By the way, I did say that I enjoyed some of the quest lines if you read what I typed. Yes, I listened to the voice overs most of the time, until I started getting bored with some of them.
I've been following Arche Age a bit, but keep hearing about Black Desert. I'm curious to see how the new hybrid f2play models will affect the motivation for making deeper games with more freedom. Meaning, those who sandbox will pay the subs, those used to themeparks can play for free as "content" players. Even though they don't spend money, they contribute to the overall world just by being there and playing.
. . . the next great mmorpg will probably be made 10 years from now by someone in their garage
Finally someone talking sense around here.
You forgot so-called 'sandbox' gamers redefining that term every time a sandbox game with a feature or two they don't like is released, then label it a theme park & complain that nobody makes sandbox games anymore *cough*EQN*cough*
If I were to ever become a software developer, an MMO would be the absolute last game type I'd attempt. The community is just too immature & fickle, and double standards are the norm.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
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imo its the pinnapple of MMO PvE
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
When I first started playing ESO, I was like, "I played MMO's with these mechanics about seven years ago." The graphics are up to date but the Devs mindset feels old school.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Also don't forget how broken the game is with all the bugs they have right now.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
If this is what you find the pinnacle of PvE MMOs then you should probably rethink your criticism.
Because if it really is the pinnacle, I'm very very scared.
..Cake..
Outside of your first post you've made some actually very solid points. Here's the thing though, You're going to a completely technical level on every aspect possible which makes sense with a word like "pinnacle" in the title. Here's the thing, although I do believe the leveling experience as whole defeats the leveling experience as a whole of any MMO currently available. What I really mean is how enjoyable something I normally despise has been. Not "well because it doesn't have this this and that it can't receive a title like pinnacle"
Maybe several other MMOs are miles ahead of eso on every point that you made. But if they simply are not as fun, if I do not enjoy them as much are they really better? For example, You can tell me how much technically better MMOs are today than my favorite MMO was back in 2002. You can show me proof that a game from 2014 has better graphics, more in depth progression systems, way more skills, top of the line combat, advanced social features and more things to do... But if I just had a ton more fun in my game from 2002, If I just enjoyed it a hell of a lot more. Which game is really better? That's my point about ESO.. No matter how much everything is technically the same or not as technically advanced, For whatever reason, It's more enjoyable.
If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months.
Why is it still such a big deal?
~Im not what I am~