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The Nature of MMORPGs - A Discussion
nexen
Member Posts: 55
MMORPG Addiction: This is the route of the problem with 75% of the MMORPGs released today. Developers have realized MMORPGs can be like a drug, and they want to play the part of the crack dealer. They design their games to be as addictive as possible, with a large enough time sink to keep even the most hardcore player interested for at least a few months.
Now, this wasn't always the way. And still isn't. It's just that the most hyped games, like WoW and EQ2, happen to have been designed with this philosophy.
The first MMORPG I really got into was UO, and I played that from its birth till its death (at least, its death as far as I'm concerned). My character was maxed out and fairly rich after the first 4-5 months, but I continued playing it for another 4 years just because the game itself was so enjoyable. New content was added, but it wasn't even necessary. It was a real online world, where you could do whatever you wanted, and where the players really made the game. It was the community and the gameplay that made UO so great, not the number of items or zones or classes or races. Then, beginning with the release of Trammel, the developers noticed that certain formulas can reel in a lot of players and get them hooked. For example, the introduction of proper 'ph4t lewt' (where before most people would just wear crafted stuff, particularly for pvp), a non-pvp landmass (where everyone but the full-out pvpers fled to) and generally much more simplistic but addictive gameplay. It was becoming EQ1, or even WoW, but with worse graphics. It was no longer UO, that's for sure. But EA profited big time out of that move, even though it destroyed a very original game.
That's the sad fact, folks. The mmorpgs that sell just aren't anything new. WoW, EQ2, SWG, CoH - all based around the same formula, all trying to suck in as much cash as possible. The only way to get some well-funded decent mmorpgs into development (and beyond, ideally) is to just stop buying these pointless grindathons. As soon as the majority of players begin to develop a taste for the real mmorpg experience, we'll start seeing UOs, Eves and Shadowbanes springing up again with revitalized budgets, filled up servers and real worlds (Eve is already well on the way to accomplishing this). Of course, by then there will be even more innovative and absorbing mmorpgs available, but it'll be another 5 years before they're marketed in the mainstream...
So what is the real mmorpg experience? Well, what's the difference between an MMORPG and an ORPG? Two words: "Persistent Worlds". In my opinion, a real mmorpg experience should be about experiencing a virtual world, something deep and real. And to make it real, it needs to have downs as well as ups. Namely, griefing needs to be in the mix, as well as player justice. Yeah, that's what makes an mmorpg feel like a real world - open-ended pvp where griefing is a distinct possibility. No, I'm not being sarcastic - that element really is what makes the world feel real, because that's exactly what happens in real life too.
Thing is, griefers still play restricted-pvp mmorpgs, and still find ways to grief people. Funny thing is that these people who are grief'd have absolutely no way of retaliating, at least not within the game mechanics, because of all the restrictions. Maybe that's why there are so many whiners in these kinds of game. When another player pisses them off, they can either whine about it on the forums, file a petition, or just shut up and deal with it. And looking at the kind of people who play these kinds of game, guess which option the majority of players don't choose.
If someone grief'd you in UO, and you were really sore about it, you could quite easily make their UO life hell in return. Similarly in EVE. You can hunt them down, and you can inflict real damage, and make them regret their actions.
Good MMORPGs are all about balancing open-endedness with game mechanics. Ideally, the mechanics should just set players off in the right direction, and the rest should be the result of how they act. This makes the world shaped, in some way or another, by the players. Which makes the game actually feel like a world, rather than a ride.
For example, look at Shadowbane (wolfpack had the right idea). "Game mechanics" were minimal (perhaps too minimal, in fact). For example, you could build cities, but you could also destroy them. Anyone could fight and potentially kill you, anywhere, but if they did, their name would be saved in your revenge list. You could lead 200 people to glorious victory against your arch nemesis' nation, but you could also be stabbed in the back by your most trusted friend, and end up alone and broke. Both ends of the 'experience spectrum' are totally obtainable, which provides a far more satisfying experience overall. It's in games like these where the addiction comes from the attachment to the world, not from any competitive desire (such as having the best items or most pvp kills). And in my opinion, that's what MMORPGs should be aiming for. So far, the only games that have managed to properly pull this off successfully have been (pre-trammel) Ultima Online and Eve Online (shadowbane flopped, unfortunately).
Does anyone agree with this vision of MMORPG perfection, or am I just high?
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-nexen-
Comments
I agree, and I think it's even worse than that, and I think it goes both ways, pvp and pve.
In PvE the problem is similar, they make the game so simplistic that any moron can win easily. There is no challenge. They make it so that skill means nothing. Every person has a dozen or so skills they can regularly use and they increase in power every few levels. It's all blah and boring even for people that love PvE. Then to top it all off and try and skim pvp players they throw in some half baked PvP just for the extra cash.
I loved UO and like PvP more now. It's not that I find it easier, I find it more immersive and fun.
I don't talk trash or any of that, I just like the creativity possible in PvP on both sides.
The other thing is the community. Free for all PvP truly forces you to group up and find friends. The Player created areas are the greatest. Roleplay is so much better in PvP areas.
It seems like they could make some true Pvp games and PvE games without mixing them up so both sides are happy.
Asdar
LOL, well it is a buisness. So naturally they want to "hook" there customers somehow. You see any bad games that are a sucess? Odd eh??
Yeah, totally. I was never a massive fan of EQ, but I played it for a year or so, and it is (or at least, was) incredibly hardcore compared to the likes of WoW. And I did find myself much more immersed in EQ than any other PvE game - the atmosphere was incredible, and I reckon that's almost entirely due to the fact that dying hurt, and it just made the world feel that bit more real.
And it's interesting to watch multiple servers progress in an open-pvp environment. Some might just be complete chaos, because there happen to be just enough random PKers to overpower any kind of anti movement. Others might be completely controlled, with player guard squads patrolling around to keep the peace, and it's basically like playing a PvE game because the players have made the world so safe. It's that kind of stretch of possibilities that makes it even more interesting.
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-nexen-
At least City of Heroes was a change to the old elves and rusty swords notice even though it felt grindy it was more fun and dared to be different, credit to the makers for being brave enough.
As to your griefers, these games aren't real life though. Let them have their own servers and they can piss on each other there if that's their idea of fun. The squeakiest wheel does tend to get the most oil though, when did mmorpg's suddenly attract CS'ing, b.net kids..oh yeah WoW
You have a beautiful vision. MMOs these days don't feel persistent at all. Theres no emotion, just the grind. This needs to change, and fast. Great post.
At least City of Heroes was a change to the old elves and rusty swords notice even though it felt grindy it was more fun and dared to be different, credit to the makers for being brave enough.
As to your griefers, these games aren't real life though. Let them have their own servers and they can piss on each other there if that's their idea of fun. The squeakiest wheel does tend to get the most oil though, when did mmorpg's suddenly attract CS'ing, b.net kids..oh yeah WoW
I don't think you read my post. Part of my arguement is that, in a truely great MMORPG, griefers are actually essential to the community makeup. But only if there's a way for them to be brought to justice by the players. Which is why, in a truely great MMORPG, open pvp is also essential.
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-nexen-
My MMO xp is limited to Planetside and WoW. I biggest problem I see with MMOs, is the stagnant world issue. To give everyone the same game experience, the developer is saddled with a huge never changing world. Wow low level zones are wonderful and beautiful, but once your done with them (finished the quests), your done. Time to move on. The world is persistent, but perishable and it's not a design that can be sustained in the long run.
I've mentioned Seed in several posts. Not that it's perfect, especially because there is no combat and no one has played it yet
, but I really like the idea of quest templates, where the existing world can change, and every player will not see every quest. This sounds to me like what a MMO should be.
-Hunt'n
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Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2
MMORPG's are anything but an addictive drug these days.
This watered down Disneyland-instanced crap they put out these days arent addictive, theyre barely pallateable.
griefers are essential to a community?
Since when did every fucking game need PvP?
Amen brother!
The more that a mmorpg can make a person a vital part of the world in which they are playing, then and only then will their participation in the game change from just a casual stance into a true divine purpose. Many of the current games out there fail to make this happen so ppl are easily converted from one game to the next. If a game can make a person or group stand out in the crowd from the others whether it be in skills, crafting quality, PvP, economy, reputation, etc. then this will certainly make all the difference in your gaming experience.
Eve-Online, EQ2, DnL, SWG (Dead), Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, EQ, DAoC, Planet Side, WoW, LOTR, Tabula Rasa.
Great original post, it's how so many MMO veterans seem to feel, but I have to say I'm playing a game at the moment that is giving me as much joy as the original UO - it's called Roma Victor!
Unfortunately it seems to be getting slated by a lot of people who've never played it but just look at the (unfortunately) ugly screen shots and write it off. Not such a bad thing really because it means the people that do make it to RV are really cool and it doesn't suffer from too many n00bish kiddies. You probably think I'm mad but I can see this game winning game of the year by 2007, there is and has been nothing like it and I hope they get the recognition they deserve in the not too distant future.
Unfortunately, a game needs the noobish kiddies and whoever else they can scrape up, just to make it able to sustain itself. I don't know the costs are involved with Roma Victor but I assume they're substantial... just like most MMO costs. If they don't give a good impression, and if too many people are put off by the look of it... well, it doesn't sound as if it bodes well for the game. I don't know a lot about RV. I was actually invited to the beta test but wasn't able to use it at that time.
Game of the Year by who? There are hundreds of places you can get one of those from... game websites, magazines, conferences... I still think every game could be game of the year as long as they spend a bit of dosh on advertising. hehe. I'm not entirely sure a game with ugly art or graphics could win one of the top game of the year awards. Unfortunately, those sorts of awards seem to be given out for the shiny... not the substance.
hear hear. the stuff coming out of the tubes now-adays is terrible. companies need to stop shoving these poorly done P.O.S's and send out another quality game
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
From reading that what I understand is you play the game for the world not the "Ooo,I'm lvl 75 beat that!". And if I understood the author's post correctly then I completely agree. What's the pointing in lvling up a character other than the glory of having a number next to the letters LVL? The world makes the game more interesting not the silly number next to the letters LVL.
"The one who begins with nothing, gains everything slowly."
I'm sorry to hear you didn't read or understand my post in the slightest.
As for Roma Victor, my old UO/SB guild has been raving about that for a while, I havn't even bothered checking it out because I've been busy with EVE, but from what you've said it does sound very interesting, will have to take a look. Shadowbane was cursed with a similar problem of "ugly screenshots", which (combined with a pretty fidly interface which took a while to get completely used to) certainly put off a lot of potential players, despite the game's superior (and highly original) gameplay.
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-nexen-
Unfortunatly theres always kids looking for the new grind fest.
I played SWG for a few months and I loved it. Best community, I did not ONCE try the combat because I was having too much fun selling and making things and making friends while flying around in my yacht. But then NGE happened and it ruined the game...even more. I was forced to give up on crafting because it sucked too much and had to play a third person shooter. Thats not what I wanted, its what the damn kids wanted.
I look forward to the new upcoming games to see if possibly some good communities and games can happen though.
It funny how poeple called MMORPG addicting when they are design to play on a long term scale. Now any other addicting drug arnt made to be use on a long term basis.
It not addicting. It's just better entertainment.
What the OP said, are said, about every entertainemnt out there... the television shows, movies, console games, and even books. You just havn't found the one you like or you're just not into it.
BTW are technology today is so new or weak that it take years for that great , uber AI, no instance, pvp or whatever crap your looking for in a mmorpg.
Instances is new and I found it fun in WoW... but example PoTBS takes it too far. They wanted the best PvP, pirate game out there and I guess that way you had to go for the great experince.
Guild Wars done it because they wanted no monthly fee what some people wanted. It wasnt made for you.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
The problem these days is that MMO are made to last long, but people go through it so fast that they get burned out and become bored. The players are completeing thing to fast, that the content devs put out isn't fast enough.
I'm sorry to hear you didn't read or understand my post in the slightest.
Don't be so condescending. I don't agree with you at all, is that how you counter someone who doesn't agree with you put them down. no wander you like griefing so much...
LOL. Great contribution, Moonfrog. My guess is it took you the same amount of mental effort as an earthworm uses to move 1.5 meters underground.
That's your science lesson for today.
http://deerhoof.killrockstars.com/