eso suffered the same fate as tor...both were based on single player open world rpgs ...skyrim/ kotor respectively......and a ssuch anyone who has played anything other than a sandbox mmo would know neither would translate well to an mmo. western devs are scared of sandboxes because expansion/system changes can have a lasting effect on how the game plays out especially its in world economy. a fledgling mmo company like zenimax took the safe route of a themepark and dressed it up as best they could. if eso was the first ever ES game aside from the bad bugs it would have been a hit. but gamers expect better and we have a right to, that is why archeage is garnering so much attention...it is what eso stumbled around in the dark trying to be.
Originally posted by Horusra I think people that expected Skyrim never played MMO's.
and people that play mmo's never played Skyrim.
This was why I kept saying they should not have used the Elder Scrolls ip.
Zenimax just kept loading up expectations though with the sub fee and elder scrolls name among other things as well.
Without the Elder Scrolls association, Elder Scrolls fans would have came in with a more open mind, and would appreciate the game as an mmo, rather than an mmo that is ripping off their beloved elder scrolls ip.
The game could have launched under another name, even their own ip, and they could have said it has alot in common with Elder Scrolls, but it's an mmorpg, it will never be an Elder Scrolls game. With a statement and action like that, they would have humbled themselves, and reduced rediculous expectations that calling it ESO has created.
ESO hurt ESO. People that play MMORPG's have expectations. The problem exists with single player rpg developers creating MMOs. SWtoR should have been a good example for ESO to work off of but they obviously did not pay attention. Single player RPG's and MMO's are simply not the same and for some reason most of these developers believe that they are.
The things I learned from SWtoR
1. Voice Acting is nice
but it is not a requirement and it should not be the big budget factor. If you are going to place a large portion of your budget somewhere, how about it be combat and character development. Actual content could use a significant chunk of your $. Voice acting is nice but its there to support the game and not be a focal point.
2. The MMO to the RPG
balance is an important concept. Is the game and MMO first or an RPG first. If I want and RPG first I will platy an RPG. If I want the MMO side to take precedence then I will play an MMO. WIth both SWtoR and ESO, in my opinion, they chose the RPG aspect of the game to take precedence. Sadly, neither hooked me based upon the RPG aspects of the game. Neither give choice that actually has an effect on the outcome of anything. Its the same old " you are the one of a kind super hero here to save the universe" schtick every single player RPG feeds the player. With an MMO I am apart of a community and I want to feel as if a cog in the machine. Maybe hand out small things to make me feel like an important cog, but a cog none the less.
3. Character faction, alignment, and choice
is implemented in the same old method of, you make decisions and your decisions affect nothing. If I were to use phasing in an MMO that is of the megaserver type, I would use it to differentiate between which player goes to which server. If you chose to participate in the epic battle of "blah" and you chose "A" faction to win, win or lose this determines which server you belong to. In this method the PLAYER determines their server based upon IN GAME choices. Win or Lose, has consequences. Choice has consequences. This makes the game much more RPG like while still allowing it to be an MMO.
4. Combat
Should be an important part of any MMORPG that focuses on it as a method of leveling and telling a story. Why does it feel as if the combat in ESO was the least weighted aspect of the game. In a lot of MMOs it seems as if combat is simply tacked on with little to no thought or budget placed upon it.
Well said.
In the current state of ESO i prefer playing Skyrim by a mile as RPG and many other games as MMO's. Maybe this will change some time in the future, i don't know. Plus as it concerns the RPG aspect you can find games both better and sub free
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
Originally posted by Horusra I think people that expected Skyrim never played MMO's.
and people that play mmo's never played Skyrim.
This was why I kept saying they should not have used the Elder Scrolls ip.
Zenimax just kept loading up expectations though with the sub fee and elder scrolls name among other things as well.
Without the Elder Scrolls association, Elder Scrolls fans would have came in with a more open mind, and would appreciate the game as an mmo, rather than an mmo that is ripping off their beloved elder scrolls ip.
The game could have launched under another name, even their own ip, and they could have said it has alot in common with Elder Scrolls, but it's an mmorpg, it will never be an Elder Scrolls game. With a statement and action like that, they would have humbled themselves, and reduced rediculous expectations that calling it ESO has created.
Or Elder Scrolls fans would just be wondering when Elders Scrolls VI would be coming out and wouldn't bother with the new MMO at all.
Balancing the online game with the solo one was always going to be an issue. When you talk about a justice system think on this, how many MMO's do you know that have one? That's the issue here, stick something in just because it is in Skyrim and it can explode in your face.
I do not think so for the simple fact that ES has been a series long before it was an MMO. If the franchise only had Skyrim, then I would say yes. But seeing as how ES has been out longer, and Skyrim isn't evennew anymore, I can't find a rational reason to believe the Skyrim somehow "upstaged" ESo's release.
What upstaged ESO's release were it's bugs and problems.
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
i think this brings up the whole dumbed down for console argument.
if they could make Skyrim, as it is now with multiplayer, would it be a major feat of programming? with my limited understanding of game programming, would all the items in the world or even a visible range need to be synced with all the players on the server? i believe that's one of the factors that leads to game designs with less objects in the worlds, specially mmo's.
so either Zenimax decided to dumb it down so consoles can play too, or it was just to technically demanding, and required more money than they were willing to invest.
i think Skyrim helped fuel the release even made it bigger, but stared to kill Eso post-realease when people realized its just not what they wanted it to be.
i knew it wouldn't be a skyrim-esq game from the first cinematic trailer. there is no cake.
If a 1980's arcade game "Gauntlet" can sync for multi player a 2010's game sure as shit can.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 The problem with ESO is that it is made for mmo players not Elder Scrolls players.
The problem is, its boring. It doesn't matter if you are just an MMO player or an Elder Scrolls fan. I happen to be both with over 2000 hours in Skyrim and dozens of MMO titles played.
ESO isn't a bad game it just feels kinda bare bones right now.
Right now ESO is a straight forward hack&slash questing game, you follow the stories from quest to quest, from zone to zone and you will most likely enjoy it.
And then you want to do something else and you find a totally disconnected fishing game and that is it. No outfits to gather, no extra's that turn this into anything more then a co-op Skyrim with half the elements of Skyrim missing and no mods to explore.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 The problem with ESO is that it is made for mmo players not Elder Scrolls players.
The problem is, its boring. It doesn't matter if you are just an MMO player or an Elder Scrolls fan. I happen to be both with over 2000 hours in Skyrim and dozens of MMO titles played.
Hm, I agree with you completely. Asking if Skyrim hurt ESO's release is like asking if The Matrix Online suffered from the Movie Trilogy. No- it was just boring as hell to play!
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
My answer was No but that's based pure for myself.
I know the difference between what can be done in a singleplayer game and what can be done in a MMORPG.
Zenimax has gone thru great lenghts to give their games this Elder Scrolls feel and it works for me.
Yes I want another singleplayer ES game but for very different reason, actually mainly because I love what singleplayer games can provide.
Doesn't it suprise anyone that when Skyrim was released so many people experianced bugs and all sorts of issue's yet it became a number one game and sold 20 million copies (as OP stated).
But oh no a MMORPG that is allot more complex to make got some bugs/isseu's and people just give up on it??
So for me Skyrim didn't hurt ESO because for me they are 2 completely different genre's and as said many times I am too experianced to not see that difference.
You know a game is sad when it has to rely on it's cousin Skyrim to be bad in order to look good by comparison.
The problem isn't just Skyrim, the problem is the game took everything bad from the ES series(single player lol, repetitive combat, poor itemization, horrible class balance) and left out all the good(classless system, non linear, immersive, fun, consequences)
The OP said that ESO would sell 10 million copies by the end of this year and about 5 million of those were PC copies from an earlier thread of his that has since been locked. Why does he now think Skyrim has hurt ESO when he argued then that Skyrim's popularity would definitely garner ESO those numbers. An about turn I see based on what exactly ?
Originally posted by Horusra I think people that expected Skyrim never played MMO's.
yur right..obli, / skyrim was a hit on consoles mostly and therefor you had TONS of kids / younger crowd scoop them up on their xbone n pos3 ..heck i bet they cant wait till it releases on console ..will prolly out sell PC version seeing alot of em dont keep up with the everyday info that most mmorpgers do on pc...once the ads start on tv for console release i bet it will be insane...wich is sad cuz imo morrowind was the best and may never see another game like it and done in that way..its all about quick sales nowa days on consoles n thats what obliv. / skyrim was
Skyrim definitely without a doubt hurt it. The amount of features and freedom a player had in Skyrim is killing this title. To those shouting "it's an MMO" have no clue what they are talking about. MMO does not mean a game needs to be stripped of its features or lose freedom. It simply means that it is a massive multiplayer online game.
I think many of us were expecting Skyrim online... or Elder Scrolls for that matter online. This game has no real essence of Elder Scrolls in my opinion. From the class system (horrible idea that took away from the freedom) to the horrible aided combat (spells and arrows dont have to be aimed. Simply tab target someone and the arrows and spells will ALWAYS go to them).
To finish, I believe the only reason many of us are still playing is because we paid a hefty 60-80$. With the monthly membership in place... I don't personally see this games popularity lasting.
Originally posted by cheyane Don't FFXI and FFXIV ARR count ?
Yes and No
FFXI had no advertisements and FFXIV ARR is only for PS4.
ESO will flood with advertisements and will be on both PS4 and Xbox1
both FFXI and FFXIV;ARR are both PC and Console, FFXIV;ARR in particular is PC, PS3 and PS4, players who own a copy of the PS3 version can even upgrade to the PS4 version for free if they choose to. Also, despite Knotwoods insistance otherwise, the Final Fantasy franchise is at least as large as that of the Elder Scrolls one, if not larger, there are also more Final Fantasy games than Elder Scrolls ones, and FFXIV;ARR is the second MMO in the series to hit Console as well as PC, and is still running successfully.
Originally posted by cheyane Don't FFXI and FFXIV ARR count ?
They do but their player base is much smaller then the Elder Scrolls player base. FFXI and FFXIV are pretty niche old school games, I love them both, but they could never achieve a player base the size of Elder Scrolls in the modern mmorpg world. I think Yoshi sure is trying hard though and give him credit for trying.
Is the player base for FFXIV AAR smaller? We have no official numbers for TESO.
Nor do we have any sub numbers for FFXIV ARR of course but we have recent sales figures - 500k in the last 6 months, 2.1M total.
Can we say for sure that TESO has sold more? I don't think we can.
We can guess of course but why would our guess be any better than e.g. the vgchartz guess or a guess based on xfire numbers? We can guess but we don't know.
It sold 20 million in just under 4 years of release.
See where ESO is in after 4 years, hey?
Bit bizarre to compare a 4 year old game single player game to a brand new one month old multiplayer-only game but ok.
Maybe.
Whilst your point about waiting has a certain validity the OP in an earlier post assumed that TESO would have 10M subscriptions by the end of the year. An assumption predicated in part by the fact that Skyrim sold lots of copies (one report I saw said 27M.
My own view is that no Skyrim did not harm sales of TESO; Elder Scrolls is a brand and brand recognition gets products in shops, gets products noticed and - companies hope - sold.
What TESO has, however, that Skyrim did not have is a subscription. It is a "more expensive" game. The sub will have damaged sales and will damage follow on sales (imo).
It probably did but the single player games are waaaay more important than ESO. As a Elder Scrolls fanboy, I look at ESO as a nice tribute. Personally, Skyrim did affect my opinion on ESO. I accept it's flaws and enjoy the game. In some ways I'm glad that they inherently play different. Now ES can fulfill my gaming desires in more than one category.
If skyrim never existed then ESO would get about 1/10 of the sales it got. TES was not a famous brand until skyrim. Skyrim was what WoW was to MMOs. It was something to help players get into that market. A majority of MMO players started with WoW now. Skyrim was a stepping stone into the Sandbox gaming for most players.
Originally posted by Horusra I think people that expected Skyrim never played MMO's.
yur right..obli, / skyrim was a hit on consoles mostly and therefor you had TONS of kids / younger crowd scoop them up on their xbone n pos3 ..heck i bet they cant wait till it releases on console ..will prolly out sell PC version seeing alot of em dont keep up with the everyday info that most mmorpgers do on pc...once the ads start on tv for console release i bet it will be insane...wich is sad cuz imo morrowind was the best and may never see another game like it and done in that way..its all about quick sales nowa days on consoles n thats what obliv. / skyrim was
[mod edit]
Originally posted by Creatorzim
If skyrim never existed then ESO would get about 1/10 of the sales it got. TES was not a famous brand until skyrim. Skyrim was what WoW was to MMOs. It was something to help players get into that market. A majority of MMO players started with WoW now. Skyrim was a stepping stone into the Sandbox gaming for most players.
Not really. The TES games were very successful even prior to Skyrim. Morrowind and Oblivion did pretty well. And I hear Daggerfall and Arena did pretty well back in the days too.
WoW, had it's predecessors too. Warcraft 1 did well, Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 did incredibly well! Warcraft 3 was huge before WoW.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Horusra I think people that expected Skyrim never played MMO's.
yur right..obli, / skyrim was a hit on consoles mostly and therefor you had TONS of kids / younger crowd scoop them up on their xbone n pos3 ..heck i bet they cant wait till it releases on console ..will prolly out sell PC version seeing alot of em dont keep up with the everyday info that most mmorpgers do on pc...once the ads start on tv for console release i bet it will be insane...wich is sad cuz imo morrowind was the best and may never see another game like it and done in that way..its all about quick sales nowa days on consoles n thats what obliv. / skyrim was
[mod edit]
Originally posted by Creatorzim
If skyrim never existed then ESO would get about 1/10 of the sales it got. TES was not a famous brand until skyrim. Skyrim was what WoW was to MMOs. It was something to help players get into that market. A majority of MMO players started with WoW now. Skyrim was a stepping stone into the Sandbox gaming for most players.
Not really. The TES games were very successful even prior to Skyrim. Morrowind and Oblivion did pretty well. And I hear Daggerfall and Arena did pretty well back in the days too.
WoW, had it's predecessors too. Warcraft 1 did well, Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 did incredibly well! Warcraft 3 was huge before WoW.
Yes they did well, they did not do great though. I started back with Morrowind as well as a ton of other people on here. But RPG players are not the norm. We are a small part of the gaming community. Skyrim brought in tons of players that have never even picked up an RPG before or RPG fans that were afraid of sandbox games. It brought in the masses.
Warcraft 3 was not big from WoW, the game came out 2 years before WoW did...WoW did so well because many players wanted to get into MMOs but were intimidated by how many expansions there were for EQ. The game didnt do a good job at getting new players after it was running successfully for awhile. WoW was the stepping stone into the MMO world, it allowed for an IP that was known with both starcraft and warcraft players, an MMO that was easy to pick up and enjoy without trying to learn how to play like EQ was. It did a good job at appeasing the masses.
Comments
so say we all
and people that play mmo's never played Skyrim.
This was why I kept saying they should not have used the Elder Scrolls ip.
Zenimax just kept loading up expectations though with the sub fee and elder scrolls name among other things as well.
Without the Elder Scrolls association, Elder Scrolls fans would have came in with a more open mind, and would appreciate the game as an mmo, rather than an mmo that is ripping off their beloved elder scrolls ip.
The game could have launched under another name, even their own ip, and they could have said it has alot in common with Elder Scrolls, but it's an mmorpg, it will never be an Elder Scrolls game. With a statement and action like that, they would have humbled themselves, and reduced rediculous expectations that calling it ESO has created.
Well said.
In the current state of ESO i prefer playing Skyrim by a mile as RPG and many other games as MMO's. Maybe this will change some time in the future, i don't know. Plus as it concerns the RPG aspect you can find games both better and sub free
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
Or Elder Scrolls fans would just be wondering when Elders Scrolls VI would be coming out and wouldn't bother with the new MMO at all.
I do not think so for the simple fact that ES has been a series long before it was an MMO. If the franchise only had Skyrim, then I would say yes. But seeing as how ES has been out longer, and Skyrim isn't even new anymore, I can't find a rational reason to believe the Skyrim somehow "upstaged" ESo's release.
What upstaged ESO's release were it's bugs and problems.
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
If a 1980's arcade game "Gauntlet" can sync for multi player a 2010's game sure as shit can.
The problem is, its boring. It doesn't matter if you are just an MMO player or an Elder Scrolls fan. I happen to be both with over 2000 hours in Skyrim and dozens of MMO titles played.
I think ESO came out to late.
SWTOR did cutscenes better.
GW2 did events, banking and auction house better.
TSW did puzzles better.
Skyrim did dungeons better.
ESO isn't a bad game it just feels kinda bare bones right now.
Right now ESO is a straight forward hack&slash questing game, you follow the stories from quest to quest, from zone to zone and you will most likely enjoy it.
And then you want to do something else and you find a totally disconnected fishing game and that is it. No outfits to gather, no extra's that turn this into anything more then a co-op Skyrim with half the elements of Skyrim missing and no mods to explore.
Hm, I agree with you completely. Asking if Skyrim hurt ESO's release is like asking if The Matrix Online suffered from the Movie Trilogy. No- it was just boring as hell to play!
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
My answer was No but that's based pure for myself.
I know the difference between what can be done in a singleplayer game and what can be done in a MMORPG.
Zenimax has gone thru great lenghts to give their games this Elder Scrolls feel and it works for me.
Yes I want another singleplayer ES game but for very different reason, actually mainly because I love what singleplayer games can provide.
Doesn't it suprise anyone that when Skyrim was released so many people experianced bugs and all sorts of issue's yet it became a number one game and sold 20 million copies (as OP stated).
But oh no a MMORPG that is allot more complex to make got some bugs/isseu's and people just give up on it??
So for me Skyrim didn't hurt ESO because for me they are 2 completely different genre's and as said many times I am too experianced to not see that difference.
You know a game is sad when it has to rely on it's cousin Skyrim to be bad in order to look good by comparison.
The problem isn't just Skyrim, the problem is the game took everything bad from the ES series(single player lol, repetitive combat, poor itemization, horrible class balance) and left out all the good(classless system, non linear, immersive, fun, consequences)
The OP said that ESO would sell 10 million copies by the end of this year and about 5 million of those were PC copies from an earlier thread of his that has since been locked. Why does he now think Skyrim has hurt ESO when he argued then that Skyrim's popularity would definitely garner ESO those numbers. An about turn I see based on what exactly ?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/408167/5-million-registered-beta-users-10-million-users-by-end-of-year.html
yur right..obli, / skyrim was a hit on consoles mostly and therefor you had TONS of kids / younger crowd scoop them up on their xbone n pos3 ..heck i bet they cant wait till it releases on console ..will prolly out sell PC version seeing alot of em dont keep up with the everyday info that most mmorpgers do on pc...once the ads start on tv for console release i bet it will be insane...wich is sad cuz imo morrowind was the best and may never see another game like it and done in that way..its all about quick sales nowa days on consoles n thats what obliv. / skyrim was
Skyrim definitely without a doubt hurt it. The amount of features and freedom a player had in Skyrim is killing this title. To those shouting "it's an MMO" have no clue what they are talking about. MMO does not mean a game needs to be stripped of its features or lose freedom. It simply means that it is a massive multiplayer online game.
I think many of us were expecting Skyrim online... or Elder Scrolls for that matter online. This game has no real essence of Elder Scrolls in my opinion. From the class system (horrible idea that took away from the freedom) to the horrible aided combat (spells and arrows dont have to be aimed. Simply tab target someone and the arrows and spells will ALWAYS go to them).
To finish, I believe the only reason many of us are still playing is because we paid a hefty 60-80$. With the monthly membership in place... I don't personally see this games popularity lasting.
both FFXI and FFXIV;ARR are both PC and Console, FFXIV;ARR in particular is PC, PS3 and PS4, players who own a copy of the PS3 version can even upgrade to the PS4 version for free if they choose to. Also, despite Knotwoods insistance otherwise, the Final Fantasy franchise is at least as large as that of the Elder Scrolls one, if not larger, there are also more Final Fantasy games than Elder Scrolls ones, and FFXIV;ARR is the second MMO in the series to hit Console as well as PC, and is still running successfully.
It sold 20 million in just under 4 years of release.
See where ESO is in after 4 years, hey?
Bit bizarre to compare a 4 year old game single player game to a brand new one month old multiplayer-only game but ok.
Is the player base for FFXIV AAR smaller? We have no official numbers for TESO.
Nor do we have any sub numbers for FFXIV ARR of course but we have recent sales figures - 500k in the last 6 months, 2.1M total.
Can we say for sure that TESO has sold more? I don't think we can.
We can guess of course but why would our guess be any better than e.g. the vgchartz guess or a guess based on xfire numbers? We can guess but we don't know.
Maybe.
Whilst your point about waiting has a certain validity the OP in an earlier post assumed that TESO would have 10M subscriptions by the end of the year. An assumption predicated in part by the fact that Skyrim sold lots of copies (one report I saw said 27M.
My own view is that no Skyrim did not harm sales of TESO; Elder Scrolls is a brand and brand recognition gets products in shops, gets products noticed and - companies hope - sold.
What TESO has, however, that Skyrim did not have is a subscription. It is a "more expensive" game. The sub will have damaged sales and will damage follow on sales (imo).
It probably did but the single player games are waaaay more important than ESO. As a Elder Scrolls fanboy, I look at ESO as a nice tribute. Personally, Skyrim did affect my opinion on ESO. I accept it's flaws and enjoy the game. In some ways I'm glad that they inherently play different. Now ES can fulfill my gaming desires in more than one category.
If skyrim never existed then ESO would get about 1/10 of the sales it got. TES was not a famous brand until skyrim. Skyrim was what WoW was to MMOs. It was something to help players get into that market. A majority of MMO players started with WoW now. Skyrim was a stepping stone into the Sandbox gaming for most players.
[mod edit]
Not really. The TES games were very successful even prior to Skyrim. Morrowind and Oblivion did pretty well. And I hear Daggerfall and Arena did pretty well back in the days too.
WoW, had it's predecessors too. Warcraft 1 did well, Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 did incredibly well! Warcraft 3 was huge before WoW.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Yes they did well, they did not do great though. I started back with Morrowind as well as a ton of other people on here. But RPG players are not the norm. We are a small part of the gaming community. Skyrim brought in tons of players that have never even picked up an RPG before or RPG fans that were afraid of sandbox games. It brought in the masses.
Warcraft 3 was not big from WoW, the game came out 2 years before WoW did...WoW did so well because many players wanted to get into MMOs but were intimidated by how many expansions there were for EQ. The game didnt do a good job at getting new players after it was running successfully for awhile. WoW was the stepping stone into the MMO world, it allowed for an IP that was known with both starcraft and warcraft players, an MMO that was easy to pick up and enjoy without trying to learn how to play like EQ was. It did a good job at appeasing the masses.