Originally posted by FlyByKnight Why do people who use the word "carebears" behave like they're some special cut of gamer. Are people like this apart of the competitive gaming scene in any shape or form (FPS, MOBA, FG, Sports)? Or are they simply tab target dice roll gangsters who live vicariously through their in game avatars? Explain please.
I think you answered your own question and I don't think it's a huge stretch to figure out why they think it's so important to have ffa ow pvp either.
The forums do more damage to real pvp'ers reputation than anything else. The most vocal pvp people always seem to be the very worst examples of a pvp person.
Bacause carebears are a larger mass. Thus they get more attention and generates more money. So the publishers and investors follow what the carebears like. And since they are a larger mass they seem to be "everywhere"
It is ofc not exactly that simple but in a short and rounded off kind of way that is how it is.
Thanks for the input.
However, my question was not "Why are most games developed today themeparks?" rather "Why themepark fans want current sandbox projects turned into themepark games?"
Originally posted by ORIGINALPK TL;DR: There are tons of themepark games for themepark fans to choose from. Why do they want every sandbox game to mold into a themepark too?
For same reasons sandbox fans want to turn themepark games into a sandbox game.
Not particularly surprising... Nice troll thread tho.
Bacause carebears are a larger mass. Thus they get more attention and generates more money. So the publishers and investors follow what the carebears like. And since they are a larger mass they seem to be "everywhere"
It is ofc not exactly that simple but in a short and rounded off kind of way that is how it is.
Thanks for the input.
However, my question was not "Why are most games developed today themeparks?" rather "Why themepark fans want current sandbox projects turned into themepark games?"
Where do you see all these "themepark fans" calling for sandbox MMo's to be turned into themeparks? (I like how you switch from "carebear" to "themepark fan" by the way, real classy)
Have any examples to show us?
Anyway, to answer the question, MMO players are not asking for Sandbox's to be turned into Themepark's, they are just asking to be allowed to play in the sand the way they want to, without being forced to play the way other's think they should.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Don't forget there are 3 types of gamers. "Hardcore" PvP only players that call anyone else in the world "Carebear". "Carebear" players that avoid all forms of PvP. And then the average gamers that like both PvP and PvE content.
"Hardcore" PvP players tend to think they're better than everyone else.
"Carebear" players and average gamers both usually think of "Hardcore" players as "hats" because of their L2PNeWb tendencies.
I've known WAY more average gamers than I've known "hats" or "Carebears". The only place I seem to see one extreme or the other is in forums. Imagine that. People very passionate one way or another are more likely to share their opinion than people that don't care either way and are probably spending their time in the game having fun rather than complaining about one extreme or another on a forum. Maybe that's why most games end up PvE heavy with optional PvP. Game designers have access to much more data than forum dwellers spouting theories.
Personally I like both PvP and PvE content. My favorite style is when there is "safe" PvE areas and then PvP areas that have PvE elements in them. Sometimes I just want to relax and have fun which is when "Safe" PvE is great. Fighting players in PvP gets boring to me after a while because to me it feels like the same thing over and over. PvE content lets me see more locations, follow stories etc. What's real exciting for me though is doing PvE with the DANGER of unexpected PvP.
In full PvP areas you know what to expect. Zergzergzerg. In PvE content where PvP is possible you know it could happen, but you don't know where or when. So you might be chilling taking out some Ogres for some dude that got molested by them and asked for your help and in the middle of your epic battle *WHABAM* you get jumped by somebody and now things just got interesting. Now THAT's fun in my opinion.
I'd also like to point out that the OP could be stated the exact opposite. Why do "hardcore" pvpers claim EVERY game as their own? I see just as much complaining on forums by "hardcore" pvpers about developers putting PvE content in the MMO they're designing to make money for them than I do "carebears" complaining that a small portion of the game will have optional PvP.
Don't forget, hardcore does not necessarily equal pvp. There's also hardcore and carebear pve and overall game play.
Don't forget, hardcore does not necessarily equal pvp. There's also hardcore and carebear pve and overall game play.
no, there is no carebear pve - in pve no "hardcore" pveer calls others "carebears", they are usually referenced to (both by "hardcores" and by themselves) as "casuals" - only pvpers calls nonpvpers "carebears"
Anyway, to answer the question, MMO players are not asking for Sandbox's to be turned into Themepark's, they are just asking to be allowed to play in the sand the way they want to, without being forced to play the way other's think they should.
yes. A true full sandbox would allow for anyone to play the way they want.
Don't forget, hardcore does not necessarily equal pvp. There's also hardcore and carebear pve and overall game play.
no, there is no carebear pve - in pve no "hardcore" pveer calls others "carebears", they are usually referenced to (both by "hardcores" and by themselves) as "casuals" - only pvpers calls nonpvpers "carebears"
It's really simple...game companies want money...there are way more PvErs than PvPers so game comapnies who want to make money and have their games last cater to PvErs...Economic survival.....PvPer hardcore gankers cause games to go down the tubes by driving away the PvErs where the bulk of the money comes from....PvPer gankers are their own worst enemies...if they could find a way to not be the kinda of idiots so many are today, campers, gankers etc...their games would survive
First of all, I apologize for the provocative thread title and the username. They're for attention reasons only.
I'm doing a small academic research on MMORPG gamer behaviour. The research topic plays largely around the "sandbox vs themepark" subject (even though I personally do not like those terms, about some damn time for the genre to move on!).
Now, putting aside all the prevailing MMORPG market conditions (larger companies are too afraid to produce a big budget sandbox game since themepark is cashcow). What I nor my colleagues have not figured out is: why the "themepark" oriented crowd seem to proclaim every game in this genre to suit their needs? I.e. when publishers are talking about releasing sandbox/RvR/PvP-heavy games I can see tons of articles, forum posts and even people come to me in person saying "Hey, did you hear about this new game X? It sounds awesome, I just hope there isn't any open world PvP in it! I hope the PvP crowd would go play Darkfall/Mortal Online/Eve/Insert some low budget game here."
This brings me to question the typical themepark crowd's true motivations of gaming, are they just hopping from one game to another? There are so many options to choose from in the market for players who prefer themepark games. Why should Archeage/Everquest Next/Black Desert and so many others cater just their needs?
Please bear in mind, my research is 100% neutral and I have studied this solely based on my observations on themepark crowd behaviour (I can't see sandbox fans urging publishers to add open world PvP or other elements to pure themepark games such as WoW etc). I myself, I like a good game, no matter if it's called themepark or sandbox.
Also, please keep in mind: this is not a "sandbox vs themepark" discussion (even though my research subject largely is), but a direct question to themepark fans why every other game should be a themepark game too.
TL;DR: There are tons of themepark games for themepark fans to choose from. Why do they want every sandbox game to mold into a themepark too?
There's a lot going on with your post there. One, you said you didn't like the terms "theme park and sandbox", but you're taking the player PvP preference and equating that to either sandbox or theme park game play.
If your research is 100% neutral, then you wouldn't be focusing on the things that support your point of view. Rather, you would be simply collecting information, whether it supported your hypoethesis or not.
There is no internal consistency here and the question you are asking isn't very clear. Are you talking about PvP or Sandbox v. Themepark? Are you being deliberately vague or misleading or are you just unable to clearly state what you're asking?
Your post lacks some external consistency as well. Large developers do not "fear" developing a particular kind of game. They evaluate whether or not a particular kind of game is likely to return their investment.
Finally, if you have actually been collecting information rather than just reinforcing your point of view with "observations", you'd know that players will talk about what they like and what they don't like. If they aren't fans of OW PvP, of course they are going to talk about this. If they are fans of OW PvP, they are going to talk about. There have been several posts recently on this very topic on these very forums.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Actually, there is a simple answer for this: Without "carebears", "griefers" mean nothing.
Open world PvP means one thing and one thing only: Ganking new players. Nothing else. So if someone says something like "i want open world pvp", it actually means "i want to kill newbies constantly, make sure their game experience ruined, because i am a.. (insert any nasty word here)".
Now, we all know "griefer vs. griefer" games are not succesful. They will never be. No sane person will pay for a game just to be killed by (insert nasty word here).
Sorry, but a game with "griefers vs. carebears" game will never exist. Open world PvP will always get abused.
That is why we, the majority, doesn't want open world pvp games. We will never play them. If we like the idea, we will try to change them. If we manage to do that, we will get rid of (insert nasty word here). If we cannot, we will just leave. Simple as that.
This actually reminds me of the idiots swarming to Darkfalls pre-beta forums demanding the game to have optional PvP.
Don't you think your a little bit too ignorant? Your definition of open world PvP makes me weep how pathetic todays players are. They want everything now, easy progression with zero set backs.
Actually, his definition is fairly spot-on. Also, there's a big difference between not wanting to be griefed and corpse camped, and wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter. Unlike yourself, some people actually have limited gaming time and don't want to spend it looking at a 'Resurrect Now?' prompt.
You couldn't possibly imagine how many times I've been ran down by players far above the progression than I am. Have I ever quit those games because of that? No, I haven't.
Good for you? You're tolerant of that. Most people aren't. Get over it.
I don't demand all games to be smooth sailing without any set backs, I don't need that.
People who don't like being ganked don't demand that either.
Even life isn't that, and if a person cannot handle getting beat in a computer game, I've got bad news for you what happens when the shit hits the fan for the first time in real life. Todays generations (Those born from '90s and up) are so annoying, demanding selfish brats I'd just feel like wiping them from the face of the earth.
Did it ever occur to you that because people have to put up with the 'shit hitting the fan' in real life that maybe, just maybe, they don't want that kind of garbage in their entertainment software? Of course not. Your comments show that you're simply yet another internet psychopath who gets their rocks of on ruining somebody else's day.
I aren't marching to your themeparks to demand perma-death, I just skip the game, as it obviously isn't for me. All you want is your re-skinned themepark adventure you can repeat and notice the pattern, get bored and hop into another cartwheel. Can't you admit you're only escaping something, and not really looking for an MMO experience, but rather something drastically different? MMORPGs used to be about player interraction, freedom and consequences, you've turned them into hamster wheels you want to grind through till the said feels falls off, only to be replaced with exactly the same one.
Actually the demand for a PvE sandbox is quite high as well, but hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, right?
All you want is a game where you can grief, kill, and ruin other people's gaming experiences. You're the typical ganker (NOT PvP'er) who continually harasses low level players until they quit the game, then sits there wondering why your precious PvP sandbox games continually fail miserably due to lack of players, all while you try to portray yourself as some poor, oppressed minority within the gaming community.
It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Don't forget, hardcore does not necessarily equal pvp. There's also hardcore and carebear pve and overall game play.
no, there is no carebear pve - in pve no "hardcore" pveer calls others "carebears", they are usually referenced to (both by "hardcores" and by themselves) as "casuals" - only pvpers calls nonpvpers "carebears"
You don't. You don't count as everyone.
i play/played A LOT of pve mmorpgs (just now i am playing on and off 5 of them) and NEVER even once i did hear/see any hardcore pveer use term "carebear", ever.
I have not seen any comments similar to "I hope this game doesn't have open world PvP". Does my anecdotal evidence counter OP's anecdotal evidence?
Do you know why FFA open world PvP is disliked by so many? -Its because it has never really worked as intended. Moreover, the metagame relies heavily upon "the wolves" (PvPers) praying upon "the sheep" (PvEers) which directly disrupts their gameplay. I would observe the net sum of these inter-player encounters is negative; It means open world PvP creates more displeasure than pleasure in the player population.
There's also a drastic difference between PvE combat and PvP combat which ensures that a character designed for latter will always win in engagements between the two. As it stands, there's rarely any risk involved for the PvPer. Hence the common distinction between PK (someone who kills mostly players who are not prepared to defend themselves) and actual PvP (players killing other willing players for sport).
If PvE combat and PvP combat were more similar, a PvE builds would stand a better chance of defending themselves. Ideally, you would want the distinction between PvE builds and PvP builds to vanish completely, but this is likely a pipe dream. For one, I would imagine it would require vast improvements to AI as well as a more complicated and laborious encounter design.
We are not there yet.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
What a silly thread. People don't want sandbox games to morph into PVP games (though this argument in my opinion doesnt even come down to sandbox VS Themepark, WAR was a themepark and very PVP focused for example). I think all that "PVE," or more specifically, "co-op," players want is a sandbox game to call their own, but for some reason the definition of sandbox has evolved to include open world PVP. I love open world PVP, when done right and with meaning, so I am firmly on the PVP side of the fence, but it is completely silly to claim that "carebears," want every sandbox to be pvp-less.
Game design is a big issue here. Developers are starting to take a jack of all trades approach to their games, and it just ultimately leaves people alienated since what one demographic likes the other doesn't. So then the only solution is to segregate it though instances so you don't have to participate if you don't want, and all that does is make a game feel disjointed and meaningless (See: SWTOR, TESO, GW2, etc).
Even the big open world PVP games out there tend to fuck it up in one way or another. Look at Age of Wushu - sure I can attack anyone at any time, but it is literally nothing but a penalty to me if I do. Can't loot them, not inflicting any serious loss to them, all I am doing is making myself wanted. On the flip side lets look at GW2 - Did a great job of separating everything, almost too good. It feels like two completely different games, and sure the WvW offers buffs to PVE players, but honestly who gives a shit? WvW has virtually no meaning because the game wasn't designed from the ground up with that in mind.
Now lets look at EVE - the game was DESIGNED under the pretense of open world PVP, and it does well for itself. It has a moderate and stable playerbase and while it appears to finally be on the decline, it had one hell of a run. Because it chose it's demographic and built their game to them.
Don't expect to ever see another EVE. As long as MMOs are the cash cows they are, every dev will attempt to rope in as many people as possible. It's not the players I guess is what I am saying, it's devs convincing everyone their game has something for everyone.
Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!
because they know developers always create or change titles to please the loudest whining most entitled user group.
also, the non-carebear target group does of course not even exist and therefore no one can run a sustainable MMO without having carebears as the main playerbase
because they know developers always create or change titles to please the loudest whining most entitled user group.
also, the non-carebear target group does of course not even exist and therefore no one can run a sustainable MMO without having carebears as the main playerbase
Yea like Damon said, Doc.
I wasn't whining, you were. By your logic every game should be OW PvP.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Answering the OP: the carebears dont stay in a mmo for much time. They consumes all its content in a speed that no developer until this date can keep. So they keep jumping from game to game, and because this they seens to pester EVERY new announced mmo regardless of its announced rulesets or target public.
Content locusts are not necessarily carebears. People who try to level fast and grind levels usually do it for PvP. See recent release of ESO people grinding for veteran ranks for PvP. So those consuming content fast are not carebears.
Originally posted by Kyleran Because without us, you don't have any victims to prey on. Be honest, you are not looking for a fair fight, so you'd better give me a better than even chance to avoid or flee a conflict or I won't play.
Originally posted by kitarad Content locusts are not necessarily carebears. People who try to level fast and grind levels usually do it for PvP. See recent release of ESO people grinding for veteran ranks for PvP. So those consuming content fast are not carebears.
But the pvpers stay longer pvping, while the carebears no. So, are the carebears that keep jumping from game to game and pestering all of them.
i always thought care bears in mmos were the ones who helped other players because not a single time have i seen someone calling another care bear and talking negative in the same sentence outside of this forums. It seems im awfully wrong.
There are plenty of FFA Full Loot OWPVP games out there. Carebears dont play those. Go play one of them.
The problem is none of them are successful because there isnt enough of a market for them. A lot of the people that claim to be hardcore dont want a good hard fight against skilled opponents. They want to GaNk Teh NeWbS........... so they play "Carebear" games..... then complain.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Originally posted by kitarad Content locusts are not necessarily carebears. People who try to level fast and grind levels usually do it for PvP. See recent release of ESO people grinding for veteran ranks for PvP. So those consuming content fast are not carebears.
Then why they keep complaining that there is not enough pve content when they reach max level in a few days. Shouldn't day focus on their pvp and stop QQing about the pve they dont care about?
Comments
I think you answered your own question and I don't think it's a huge stretch to figure out why they think it's so important to have ffa ow pvp either.
The forums do more damage to real pvp'ers reputation than anything else. The most vocal pvp people always seem to be the very worst examples of a pvp person.
Thanks for the input.
However, my question was not "Why are most games developed today themeparks?" rather "Why themepark fans want current sandbox projects turned into themepark games?"
For same reasons sandbox fans want to turn themepark games into a sandbox game.
Not particularly surprising... Nice troll thread tho.
Where do you see all these "themepark fans" calling for sandbox MMo's to be turned into themeparks? (I like how you switch from "carebear" to "themepark fan" by the way, real classy)
Have any examples to show us?
Anyway, to answer the question, MMO players are not asking for Sandbox's to be turned into Themepark's, they are just asking to be allowed to play in the sand the way they want to, without being forced to play the way other's think they should.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Don't forget, hardcore does not necessarily equal pvp. There's also hardcore and carebear pve and overall game play.
no, there is no carebear pve - in pve no "hardcore" pveer calls others "carebears", they are usually referenced to (both by "hardcores" and by themselves) as "casuals" - only pvpers calls nonpvpers "carebears"
yes. A true full sandbox would allow for anyone to play the way they want.
You don't. You don't count as everyone.
It's really simple...game companies want money...there are way more PvErs than PvPers so game comapnies who want to make money and have their games last cater to PvErs...Economic survival.....PvPer hardcore gankers cause games to go down the tubes by driving away the PvErs where the bulk of the money comes from....PvPer gankers are their own worst enemies...if they could find a way to not be the kinda of idiots so many are today, campers, gankers etc...their games would survive
There's a lot going on with your post there. One, you said you didn't like the terms "theme park and sandbox", but you're taking the player PvP preference and equating that to either sandbox or theme park game play.
If your research is 100% neutral, then you wouldn't be focusing on the things that support your point of view. Rather, you would be simply collecting information, whether it supported your hypoethesis or not.
There is no internal consistency here and the question you are asking isn't very clear. Are you talking about PvP or Sandbox v. Themepark? Are you being deliberately vague or misleading or are you just unable to clearly state what you're asking?
Your post lacks some external consistency as well. Large developers do not "fear" developing a particular kind of game. They evaluate whether or not a particular kind of game is likely to return their investment.
Finally, if you have actually been collecting information rather than just reinforcing your point of view with "observations", you'd know that players will talk about what they like and what they don't like. If they aren't fans of OW PvP, of course they are going to talk about this. If they are fans of OW PvP, they are going to talk about. There have been several posts recently on this very topic on these very forums.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
i play/played A LOT of pve mmorpgs (just now i am playing on and off 5 of them) and NEVER even once i did hear/see any hardcore pveer use term "carebear", ever.
I have not seen any comments similar to "I hope this game doesn't have open world PvP". Does my anecdotal evidence counter OP's anecdotal evidence?
Do you know why FFA open world PvP is disliked by so many? -Its because it has never really worked as intended. Moreover, the metagame relies heavily upon "the wolves" (PvPers) praying upon "the sheep" (PvEers) which directly disrupts their gameplay. I would observe the net sum of these inter-player encounters is negative; It means open world PvP creates more displeasure than pleasure in the player population.
There's also a drastic difference between PvE combat and PvP combat which ensures that a character designed for latter will always win in engagements between the two. As it stands, there's rarely any risk involved for the PvPer. Hence the common distinction between PK (someone who kills mostly players who are not prepared to defend themselves) and actual PvP (players killing other willing players for sport).
If PvE combat and PvP combat were more similar, a PvE builds would stand a better chance of defending themselves. Ideally, you would want the distinction between PvE builds and PvP builds to vanish completely, but this is likely a pipe dream. For one, I would imagine it would require vast improvements to AI as well as a more complicated and laborious encounter design.
We are not there yet.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What a silly thread. People don't want sandbox games to morph into PVP games (though this argument in my opinion doesnt even come down to sandbox VS Themepark, WAR was a themepark and very PVP focused for example). I think all that "PVE," or more specifically, "co-op," players want is a sandbox game to call their own, but for some reason the definition of sandbox has evolved to include open world PVP. I love open world PVP, when done right and with meaning, so I am firmly on the PVP side of the fence, but it is completely silly to claim that "carebears," want every sandbox to be pvp-less.
Game design is a big issue here. Developers are starting to take a jack of all trades approach to their games, and it just ultimately leaves people alienated since what one demographic likes the other doesn't. So then the only solution is to segregate it though instances so you don't have to participate if you don't want, and all that does is make a game feel disjointed and meaningless (See: SWTOR, TESO, GW2, etc).
Even the big open world PVP games out there tend to fuck it up in one way or another. Look at Age of Wushu - sure I can attack anyone at any time, but it is literally nothing but a penalty to me if I do. Can't loot them, not inflicting any serious loss to them, all I am doing is making myself wanted. On the flip side lets look at GW2 - Did a great job of separating everything, almost too good. It feels like two completely different games, and sure the WvW offers buffs to PVE players, but honestly who gives a shit? WvW has virtually no meaning because the game wasn't designed from the ground up with that in mind.
Now lets look at EVE - the game was DESIGNED under the pretense of open world PVP, and it does well for itself. It has a moderate and stable playerbase and while it appears to finally be on the decline, it had one hell of a run. Because it chose it's demographic and built their game to them.
Don't expect to ever see another EVE. As long as MMOs are the cash cows they are, every dev will attempt to rope in as many people as possible. It's not the players I guess is what I am saying, it's devs convincing everyone their game has something for everyone.
Please visit my youtube channel for some H1Z1/DayZ casual roleplay videos!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrQoK5VZlwBBzpsksmXtjMQ
because they know developers always create or change titles to please the loudest whining most entitled user group.
also, the non-carebear target group does of course not even exist and therefore no one can run a sustainable MMO without having carebears as the main playerbase
If that was true every game would be pvp focused. Developers chase money and numbers not forum opinion/demands.
Excuse me? What kind of a question is this?
Are carebears (and I am growing to hate all the dumbass stereotypes we seem to perpetuate on these forums) actually creating these games?
Hell no!
So in what possible way are players responsible for the games being made today? Because people play what they want to play perhaps?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Yea like Damon said, Doc.
I wasn't whining, you were. By your logic every game should be OW PvP.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Why would anyone seek a fair fight?
That is like the rule #1 of war lol
Also, what instanced PVP game out there makes it a fair fight? There are still levels, gear, etc.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
But the pvpers stay longer pvping, while the carebears no. So, are the carebears that keep jumping from game to game and pestering all of them.
*sigh*
This topic again.....
There are plenty of FFA Full Loot OWPVP games out there. Carebears dont play those. Go play one of them.
The problem is none of them are successful because there isnt enough of a market for them. A lot of the people that claim to be hardcore dont want a good hard fight against skilled opponents. They want to GaNk Teh NeWbS........... so they play "Carebear" games..... then complain.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Then why they keep complaining that there is not enough pve content when they reach max level in a few days. Shouldn't day focus on their pvp and stop QQing about the pve they dont care about?