To say that "sandbox" and "PvE" do not mix is like saying that there is only up and no down. Sandbox can and has existed in both PvP and PvE worlds as well as non-combat worlds. It is up to the designers as to whether they WANT combat in their game. It is up to them as to offer PvE only; PvE with limited PvP; or all out PvP. It is up to the consumer to decide which they prefer. And, by so choosing, you and I have the freedom to play the game that we LIKE and not the game that someone else wishes to force upon us. Just don't try to redefine what a sandbox game MUST be.
Maybe this is the issue with all the arguing on whats better games and gameplay styles: sandbox vs themepark, Old school MMO vs New School MMO, MMO vs MMORPG, PVP vs PVE, Troll vs Fanboi so on and so forth. The issue being:
Some people feel forced to play what they feel are substandard games comparied to the others that feel the games are great as is and people should stop complaining
(obviously people can switch teams on a game by game basis)
For instance, I like what are considered by some, "Old school MMO's" (EQ1, DAoC) and I wish for a game that brings back mechanics that I feel are in essence of that style of gameplay, (No mini-map, non-quest hub progression, hard game play, etc..).
However other people always tell me, "Stop trying for a game that will never come, especially ones with these errors in design. (no mini-map, non-quest hub, etc..)" . Now one could make the argument that people vote with their money, and the majority don't like that type of game so I should deal with it.
Another argument could be made that a developer has not made a game with those kinds of mechanics since the beginning of the genre.
Then another could make an argument that, there is a reason those games aren't made anymore, and back to the same of I should deal with it.
Well with those mentalities, you now have a section of the gamer population pissed off, for varying reasons (pvp, old-school mmos, open world, etc..), that they are doing the above bolded and outlined passage. People can argue whether or not the industry doesn't have something to meet their needs or that people need to not have such specific needs, but in the end that kind of reasoning creates a portion of the community that is pissed off and toxic to the rest, cause basically they're not getting what they want.
So maybe this will kinda show things in another perspective, of why people are so adamant about their point of views on games and what not. To end the rant, I think the genre needs to spread out a bit more for this to be resolved, but I do believe this is happening like gruug mentioned and I went through it more from what I see. All opinion but just Food for thought.
That's a very noble and eloquent post. Too bad not enough hard core PvPers care a whit about "challenge in combat" or anything NOT having to do with killing other players.
Maybe I am remembering incorrectly, but most of the PvP MMOs I see discussed here have a large pack of PvPers that do not want housing, crafting, or anything else that "takes away from" their killing other players. These features are good for the other players to help distract their victims, but not good for them.
What you describe, I might actually look at. It is the players, not the features, that keep me away.
I think you are missing the point bud......you got options about getting ganked. Get a protection detail on your ass.......or learn how to PvP. I personally don't pick on defenseless unskilled players like yourself when I play these types of games.
Seriously though if you guys would just quit complaining about being ganked and just use your brain you can avoid these types of situations in open world PvP areas. Follow these steps below:
1. Don't travel alone
2. Be fucking prepared to get ganked. Mentally prepare yourself and practice combat so you aren't such an easy target.
3. Don't go to areas that are known gankfests.
4. Grow some balls. Fucking stand up for yourself.
5. Don't roll on a PvP server ever......
These reason these people ruin your gaming time is because you let them. Stop bitching and complaining and start doing something about it. Be a man....fucking stand up for yourself. Avoiding your problems doesn't make them go away and doesn't help you in the long run.
The last bit was just some general advice about life.....take it or leave it LOL
I don't know if I would call EQ1 and SWG as Sandbox, but there was more freedoms in those games then any theme park made today.. I try to keep it simple.. To me a Sandbox just simply means vast array of choices.. I create my own fun, rather it be fishing, cooking, hunting, porting (playing taxi), tracking.. etc etc.. Anyone remember foraging?
PvE games today are too restrictive and mind numbing linear.. So there is much more to a good PvE game then just pure combat.. I'm getting really tired of this "E-sport" mentality that is driving the market.. Because IMO when you introduce E-sport options you cripple imagination and are forced to homogenized (balance) characters
To say that "sandbox" and "PvE" do not mix is like saying that there is only up and no down. Sandbox can and has existed in both PvP and PvE worlds as well as non-combat worlds. It is up to the designers as to whether they WANT combat in their game. It is up to them as to offer PvE only; PvE with limited PvP; or all out PvP. It is up to the consumer to decide which they prefer. And, by so choosing, you and I have the freedom to play the game that we LIKE and not the game that someone else wishes to force upon us. Just don't try to redefine what a sandbox game MUST be.
Maybe this is the issue with all the arguing on whats better games and gameplay styles: sandbox vs themepark, Old school MMO vs New School MMO, MMO vs MMORPG, PVP vs PVE, Troll vs Fanboi so on and so forth. The issue being:
Some people feel forced to play what they feel are substandard games comparied to the others that feel the games are great as is and people should stop complaining
(obviously people can switch teams on a game by game basis)
For instance, I like what are considered by some, "Old school MMO's" (EQ1, DAoC) and I wish for a game that brings back mechanics that I feel are in essence of that style of gameplay, (No mini-map, non-quest hub progression, hard game play, etc..).
However other people always tell me, "Stop trying for a game that will never come, especially ones with these errors in design. (no mini-map, non-quest hub, etc..)" . Now one could make the argument that people vote with their money, and the majority don't like that type of game so I should deal with it.
Another argument could be made that a developer has not made a game with those kinds of mechanics since the beginning of the genre.
Then another could make an argument that, there is a reason those games aren't made anymore, and back to the same of I should deal with it.
Well with those mentalities, you now have a section of the gamer population pissed off, for varying reasons (pvp, old-school mmos, open world, etc..), that they are doing the above bolded and outlined passage. People can argue whether or not the industry doesn't have something to meet their needs or that people need to not have such specific needs, but in the end that kind of reasoning creates a portion of the community that is pissed off and toxic to the rest, cause basically they're not getting what they want.
So maybe this will kinda show things in another perspective, of why people are so adamant about their point of views on games and what not. To end the rant, I think the genre needs to spread out a bit more for this to be resolved, but I do believe this is happening like gruug mentioned and I went through it more from what I see. All opinion but just Food for thought.
In all honestly that is one problem i do have with the recent years of MMO development and especially with most AAA development teams... they rather look for feature sets, which worked before, instead of
Originally posted by MMOExposed There is a huge problem here I notice. the community and developers lack imagination and vision.
And that is the point. It does not matter if a game does have feature set a), b) or c).. more important would be that the developer have a vision, stand true to that vision during development and make a great and fun game.. and it really would not matter whatever feature sets it does have or not.
The best games usually brought something completely new to the table and made a game noone thought of before them.. those game set standards, which other follow like sheeps. And that is actually missing in MMO development nowadays. Forget everything what was done before, forget everything what worked or not worked and do something completely different with massive multiplayer interaction in mind. But most gamers, and most developers are too biased because of their experience what a MMO should be.. at some point Chris Roberts with Star Citizen does something like that(in regards to MMO).. he just want another Space Opera(like his old games Wing Commander, Privateer and Freelancer) just this time not as single player(wing commander, privateer) or restrictive multiplayer(freelancer), but as much multiplayer as possible. I am curious what rather unexpected game elements and game evolution we will see. Hopefully he does not look to much to other MMOs and what they did, what worked, or not worked..
Originally posted by DocBrody how about a flying car powered by water?and by that I mean there is no such thing as a PvE sandbox MMO, it would only end up as another frankensteined shallow themepark no meaningful player conflict = no sandbox MMOwhat do you even MEAN by sandbox, guess you are just attracted by the word, not the actual implications of sandbox MMO?
This is exactly why the term "sandbox" scares me. "It MUST have X!!!!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
That's a very noble and eloquent post. Too bad not enough hard core PvPers care a whit about "challenge in combat" or anything NOT having to do with killing other players.Maybe I am remembering incorrectly, but most of the PvP MMOs I see discussed here have a large pack of PvPers that do not want housing, crafting, or anything else that "takes away from" their killing other players. These features are good for the other players to help distract their victims, but not good for them.What you describe, I might actually look at. It is the players, not the features, that keep me away.
I think you are missing the point bud......you got options about getting ganked. Get a protection detail on your ass.......or learn how to PvP. I personally don't pick on defenseless unskilled players like yourself when I play these types of games. Seriously though if you guys would just quit complaining about being ganked and just use your brain you can avoid these types of situations in open world PvP areas. Follow these steps below: 1. Don't travel alone 2. Be fucking prepared to get ganked. Mentally prepare yourself and practice combat so you aren't such an easy target. 3. Don't go to areas that are known gankfests. 4. Grow some balls. Fucking stand up for yourself. 5. Don't roll on a PvP server ever......These reason these people ruin your gaming time is because you let them. Stop bitching and complaining and start doing something about it. Be a man....fucking stand up for yourself. Avoiding your problems doesn't make them go away and doesn't help you in the long run.The last bit was just some general advice about life.....take it or leave it LOL
I got your point perfectly, as the above shows.
You are right. I am : 1) Stupid 2) retarded 3) Inept 4) physically challanged 5) A "Carebear" (on my!)
You win
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think you are missing the point bud......you got options about getting ganked. Get a protection detail on your ass.......or learn how to PvP. I personally don't pick on defenseless unskilled players like yourself when I play these types of games.
Seriously though if you guys would just quit complaining about being ganked and just use your brain you can avoid these types of situations in open world PvP areas. Follow these steps below:
1. Don't travel alone
2. Be fucking prepared to get ganked. Mentally prepare yourself and practice combat so you aren't such an easy target.
3. Don't go to areas that are known gankfests.
4. Grow some balls. Fucking stand up for yourself.
5. Don't roll on a PvP server ever......
These reason these people ruin your gaming time is because you let them. Stop bitching and complaining and start doing something about it. Be a man....fucking stand up for yourself. Avoiding your problems doesn't make them go away and doesn't help you in the long run.
The last bit was just some general advice about life.....take it or leave it LOL
nah you are missing the point.
If i don't like open world pvp, why should i even bother to do that stuff? I can get a protection details .. but that is too much work. We are talking about playing games here. It is much easier to choose a game with no open world pvp.
Don't make it sound like it is difficult .. it is just undesirable .. there is a difference.
That's a very noble and eloquent post. Too bad not enough hard core PvPers care a whit about "challenge in combat" or anything NOT having to do with killing other players.
Maybe I am remembering incorrectly, but most of the PvP MMOs I see discussed here have a large pack of PvPers that do not want housing, crafting, or anything else that "takes away from" their killing other players. These features are good for the other players to help distract their victims, but not good for them.
What you describe, I might actually look at. It is the players, not the features, that keep me away.
I think you are missing the point bud......you got options about getting ganked. Get a protection detail on your ass.......or learn how to PvP. I personally don't pick on defenseless unskilled players like yourself when I play these types of games.
Seriously though if you guys would just quit complaining about being ganked and just use your brain you can avoid these types of situations in open world PvP areas. Follow these steps below: 1. Don't travel alone 2. Be fucking prepared to get ganked. Mentally prepare yourself and practice combat so you aren't such an easy target. 3. Don't go to areas that are known gankfests. 4. Grow some balls. Fucking stand up for yourself. 5. Don't roll on a PvP server ever......
These reason these people ruin your gaming time is because you let them. Stop bitching and complaining and start doing something about it. Be a man....fucking stand up for yourself. Avoiding your problems doesn't make them go away and doesn't help you in the long run.
The last bit was just some general advice about life.....take it or leave it LOL
I got your point perfectly, as the above shows.
You are right. I am : 1) Stupid 2) retarded 3) Inept 4) physically challanged 5) A "Carebear" (on my!)
You win
Don't you know you should only go drinking at badass biker bars; because it's real, man!
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Comments
Maybe this is the issue with all the arguing on whats better games and gameplay styles: sandbox vs themepark, Old school MMO vs New School MMO, MMO vs MMORPG, PVP vs PVE, Troll vs Fanboi so on and so forth. The issue being:
Some people feel forced to play what they feel are substandard games comparied to the others that feel the games are great as is and people should stop complaining
(obviously people can switch teams on a game by game basis)
For instance, I like what are considered by some, "Old school MMO's" (EQ1, DAoC) and I wish for a game that brings back mechanics that I feel are in essence of that style of gameplay, (No mini-map, non-quest hub progression, hard game play, etc..).
However other people always tell me, "Stop trying for a game that will never come, especially ones with these errors in design. (no mini-map, non-quest hub, etc..)" . Now one could make the argument that people vote with their money, and the majority don't like that type of game so I should deal with it.
Another argument could be made that a developer has not made a game with those kinds of mechanics since the beginning of the genre.
Then another could make an argument that, there is a reason those games aren't made anymore, and back to the same of I should deal with it.
Well with those mentalities, you now have a section of the gamer population pissed off, for varying reasons (pvp, old-school mmos, open world, etc..), that they are doing the above bolded and outlined passage. People can argue whether or not the industry doesn't have something to meet their needs or that people need to not have such specific needs, but in the end that kind of reasoning creates a portion of the community that is pissed off and toxic to the rest, cause basically they're not getting what they want.
So maybe this will kinda show things in another perspective, of why people are so adamant about their point of views on games and what not. To end the rant, I think the genre needs to spread out a bit more for this to be resolved, but I do believe this is happening like gruug mentioned and I went through it more from what I see. All opinion but just Food for thought.
I think you are missing the point bud......you got options about getting ganked. Get a protection detail on your ass.......or learn how to PvP. I personally don't pick on defenseless unskilled players like yourself when I play these types of games.
Seriously though if you guys would just quit complaining about being ganked and just use your brain you can avoid these types of situations in open world PvP areas. Follow these steps below:
1. Don't travel alone
2. Be fucking prepared to get ganked. Mentally prepare yourself and practice combat so you aren't such an easy target.
3. Don't go to areas that are known gankfests.
4. Grow some balls. Fucking stand up for yourself.
5. Don't roll on a PvP server ever......
These reason these people ruin your gaming time is because you let them. Stop bitching and complaining and start doing something about it. Be a man....fucking stand up for yourself. Avoiding your problems doesn't make them go away and doesn't help you in the long run.
The last bit was just some general advice about life.....take it or leave it LOL
I don't know if I would call EQ1 and SWG as Sandbox, but there was more freedoms in those games then any theme park made today.. I try to keep it simple.. To me a Sandbox just simply means vast array of choices.. I create my own fun, rather it be fishing, cooking, hunting, porting (playing taxi), tracking.. etc etc.. Anyone remember foraging?
PvE games today are too restrictive and mind numbing linear.. So there is much more to a good PvE game then just pure combat.. I'm getting really tired of this "E-sport" mentality that is driving the market.. Because IMO when you introduce E-sport options you cripple imagination and are forced to homogenized (balance) characters
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
In all honestly that is one problem i do have with the recent years of MMO development and especially with most AAA development teams... they rather look for feature sets, which worked before, instead of
And that is the point. It does not matter if a game does have feature set a), b) or c).. more important would be that the developer have a vision, stand true to that vision during development and make a great and fun game.. and it really would not matter whatever feature sets it does have or not.
The best games usually brought something completely new to the table and made a game noone thought of before them.. those game set standards, which other follow like sheeps. And that is actually missing in MMO development nowadays. Forget everything what was done before, forget everything what worked or not worked and do something completely different with massive multiplayer interaction in mind. But most gamers, and most developers are too biased because of their experience what a MMO should be.. at some point Chris Roberts with Star Citizen does something like that(in regards to MMO).. he just want another Space Opera(like his old games Wing Commander, Privateer and Freelancer) just this time not as single player(wing commander, privateer) or restrictive multiplayer(freelancer), but as much multiplayer as possible. I am curious what rather unexpected game elements and game evolution we will see. Hopefully he does not look to much to other MMOs and what they did, what worked, or not worked..
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You are right. I am :
1) Stupid
2) retarded
3) Inept
4) physically challanged
5) A "Carebear" (on my!)
You win
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
nah you are missing the point.
If i don't like open world pvp, why should i even bother to do that stuff? I can get a protection details .. but that is too much work. We are talking about playing games here. It is much easier to choose a game with no open world pvp.
Don't make it sound like it is difficult .. it is just undesirable .. there is a difference.
Don't you know you should only go drinking at badass biker bars; because it's real, man!
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.