"End Game"

Anofalye · January 2006

If I am allergic to PvP, Raiding and Tradeskills...

Is this game any better than any other MMO on the market? Is it true to grouping, all the way to the end? Or is it betraying groupers like all the others unfaithful MMOs?

Renian · January 2006

Is this game any better than any other MMO on the market?

Going on what I've heard about it, and my knowledge of Simutronics, a resounding yes.

Is it true to grouping, all the way to the end? Or is it betraying groupers like all the others unfaithful MMOs?

Neither. You can always solo, all the way to the end. You can always group, all the way to the end. You can group with players that are unlike levels whenever the hell you want.

Shroom_Mage · January 2006

Well, the plan is to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 GM's constantly creating new quests and content for everyone to play, and anyone can play those quests (grouped or solo), regardless of their levels. (It will automatically scale to them.)

So, if they manage to pull this off, which they very well may, then there will be no "end game" because there will always be a new quest you haven't done.

The only concern I have is whether or not those quests will each be different and unique enough to keep me occupied. Furthermore, since there's a level cap, I'm curious what our motivation will be to undertake any of them. What I mean is... Will they be fun enough that you'll want to play them just "because"?

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

I think they would raise the level cap if there were enough players at it.

Renian · January 2006

I think they would raise the level cap if there were enough players at it.

Maybe. But many of Simu's games do not have a level cap, and those that do now used not to, and the cap takes so long to obtain that there's no need to raise it. Plus, when you do cap, you can try and max out every skill possible. Like reaching the cap, that will take years. So...you still have stuff to do.

Adreal · January 2006

I think the level cap in Gemstone was 160. A good idea of how long it took to level in game: It would take about two months of leveling for the average player to reach level 20, but it is extremely easy to reach levels 3-5 if you know what to do (can do it within an hour just about). The experience needed to get higher levels after 14 or 15 starts to drastically increase (from my experiences - I'm not completely familiar with the new experience system that Gemstone IV brought along though). You also have diminishing skill returns. So by level 30, you're pretty much a hardcore player in that game. Even by level 20 you achieve the title of 'Lord' or 'Lady' dependent on your gender and can display it before your name if you so choose. Ex: 'Lord Chadj' instead of 'Chadj' (a bardic friend of mine that passed me up in levels when I quit and came back).

So to achieve 160 you might have to play for about 10-40 years. Rough estimate, but I doubt anyone playing Gemstone has achieved 160 and it's been around for 15 years I think. The only guy that I've heard of as the longest-time player was years ago who had played it for 10 years straight. Just my 2 silver.

Jenuviel · January 2006

Hmm. While Hero's Journey will likely be different than Gemstone, that still makes me wonder how rewarding progress will "feel" if it comes so infrequently. Having played many MUDs (but not any of Simutronics') and many MMOs, the longer the levels lasted, the more painful it felt. Additionally, the diminishing returns model always seemed reminiscent of a drug dealer's philosophy: the first dose is free and has the greatest effect, the rest cost you an arm and a leg while providing less and less of an effect. In the typical MMO, the first few levels are quick and enjoyable to hook you, but they become more and more of a job the further you get.

The diminishing returns in other games I've played have always felt like a lazy way of extending the game's longevity; rather than providing 200 levels with a quick and steady pace, they have 50 levels that take four times longer. Given the army of GMs Simutronics employs or plans to employ, it would seem they'd have plenty of resources to draw from for those 200 levels of fun rather than 50 levels of struggle.

Assuming for the moment that I'm jumping the gun, however, (as I mentioned, I don't have any firsthand experience with other Simu games) did Simutronics have other metaphorical carrots they offered in lieu of frequent levels? Were skillups significantly more common than levels? If so, did an increase of a point have any measureable effect on gameplay? While I do love roleplay, I also love little achievements, and I find slow progress to be more of a frustration than a "challenge to overcome." Pace is very important to me, as is a steady feeling of growth and accomplishment with regard to my character. For me, the difference between "fun" and "grind" is almost entirely determined by the time it takes to feel an improvement in a character's abilities.

Adreal · January 2006

The diminishing returns in other games I've played have always felt like a lazy way of extending the game's longevity

To me they seem like an aspect which is true to life. You can only become so well-accomplished in a certain skill before you stop learning as much about it as you did when you first started.

Instance: You may not even know about cracking locks or picking them to begin with. One day you do learn about them and start studying how to crack a lock. By the end of the day, you know infinitely more about this skill than you did to begin with. The next day, you know twice as much about it as you did the day before. Then the next you know 3/2 times as much about it as you did the previous day. And so on... This is an example of diminishing returns based on a ratio of knowledge known with the knowledge gained. The steady-rate gains of skills is also a viable option to choose for an experience system. It just depends on how much you want your players varying in power from each other. Do you want a lvl 50 hobbit able to kill a lvl 10 dragon? If not, then a diminishing return helps scratch out the fine lines of power that levels bring while still keeping the player satisfied that they have gained a new level. Now hobbits may be able to pick locks infinitely better than a dragon player could, but dragons can fight 100 times better than hobbits...

Were skillups significantly more common than levels?

When Gemstone III was around, you did raise your skills until you achieved the next level and visited a tavern or another appropriate place to raise your skills and attributes. I could live with it that way; in fact it was mildly appealing to me. Gemstone IV has a somewhat more complicated system that I don't really care for. In GSIV, your levels aren't a direct relation to the amount of power you have - rather they are an indication of it since your skills raise independently of your levels. But your level progresses as your skills do (generally). This new system is like AC1's, but still has its differences.

That post may have been confusing, but... tough luck. Hope it helped...

Lord_Paladin · January 2006

I can't remember exactally what was said, but I believe Hero Points, which is what everyone will want more then levels, arn't tied to leveling themselves. So that should keep people happy between levels.

norriscj · January 2006

Originally posted by Jenuviel

Hmm. While Hero's Journey will likely be different than Gemstone, that still makes me wonder how rewarding progress will "feel" if it comes so infrequently. Having played many MUDs (but not any of Simutronics') and many MMOs, the longer the levels lasted, the more painful it felt. Additionally, the diminishing returns model always seemed reminiscent of a drug dealer's philosophy: the first dose is free and has the greatest effect, the rest cost you an arm and a leg while providing less and less of an effect. In the typical MMO, the first few levels are quick and enjoyable to hook you, but they become more and more of a job the further you get.
The diminishing returns in other games I've played have always felt like a lazy way of extending the game's longevity; rather than providing 200 levels with a quick and steady pace, they have 50 levels that take four times longer. Given the army of GMs Simutronics employs or plans to employ, it would seem they'd have plenty of resources to draw from for those 200 levels of fun rather than 50 levels of struggle.
Assuming for the moment that I'm jumping the gun, however, (as I mentioned, I don't have any firsthand experience with other Simu games) did Simutronics have other metaphorical carrots they offered in lieu of frequent levels? Were skillups significantly more common than levels? If so, did an increase of a point have any measureable effect on gameplay? While I do love roleplay, I also love little achievements, and I find slow progress to be more of a frustration than a "challenge to overcome." Pace is very important to me, as is a steady feeling of growth and accomplishment with regard to my character. For me, the difference between "fun" and "grind" is almost entirely determined by the time it takes to feel an improvement in a character's abilities.

Gemstone IV made a few changes. I believe the max level is now 100. So it takes even longer to get a level when you are higher. But what they did do is allow you the ability to train your skills as you went through your level instead of having to wait until you reached the new level.

This is just an example but... Lets say that you get 100 mental training points and 100 physical training points. Instead of getting those points when you HIT level 25 you got those points as you gained experience at level 24. So techinically someone who was almost level 25 would have more skills than someone who just turned 24.

This makes it so that the 'wait' for a new level isn't such a grind and it puts the tangible benefits for exp'ing much closer. If you had a certain skill you wanted to improve... go exp for a little while and you might make enough training points to upgrade that particular skill.

Cool huh?

Renian · January 2006

So to achieve 160 you might have to play for about 10-40 years. Rough estimate, but I doubt anyone playing Gemstone has achieved 160 and it's been around for 15 years I think. The only guy that I've heard of as the longest-time player was years ago who had played it for 10 years straight. Just my 2 silver

WHAT are you talking about? There were tons over people over level 160, mostly empaths, clerics, rogues, and this one wizard guy that picked boxes. They became level 160 once they implemented the hard cap, and received special titles. I mean, look at Zabarieth. The reason why he's The Renowned Lord Zabarieth is because he was over 160.

There are many people that have hit the now-cap level 100 as well. But it took them, at the minimum, two years.

Gemstone IV made a few changes. I believe the max level is now 100. So it takes even longer to get a level when you are higher. But what they did do is allow you the ability to train your skills as you went through your level instead of having to wait until you reached the new level.
This is just an example but... Lets say that you get 100 mental training points and 100 physical training points. Instead of getting those points when you HIT level 25 you got those points as you gained experience at level 24. So techinically someone who was almost level 25 would have more skills than someone who just turned 24.
This makes it so that the 'wait' for a new level isn't such a grind and it puts the tangible benefits for exp'ing much closer. If you had a certain skill you wanted to improve... go exp for a little while and you might make enough training points to upgrade that particular skill.
Cool huh?

Yeah, but the skill cap doesn't increase for you until you level. But, if you haven't capped a skill for that level and want to get more ranks in it now rather than later, it is quite handy.

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

If it really takes that long to get to 20 that's sad..

In DR I can get a character to level 10 in a day.............. Well, one of a specific guild anyway, that's the only one I play....

thebiv · January 2006

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx
If it really takes that long to get to 20 that's sad..
In DR I can get a character to level 10 in a day.............. Well, one of a specific guild anyway, that's the only one I play....

You can get to 10 fairly quickly in GS. Less than a week of "playing when I can". And yes it took me 4 months to get to 20. But at the same time getting that lord title infront of my name felt more rewarding than hitting 60 in WoW (which took about the same time) if only because it was so difficult to accomplish.

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

You know what's sad, it took me two years to get Diviana to 21st.

I quit and started again more recently, and since the circle req change, she went from 21st to 32nd in a matter of MONTHS.

I was lazy IG when I was 16 though, I just did stupid stuff all day long. basically "screw that, I'm going to go do random weird stuff"

And I did. A lot of it.

Although I bet now I could get a new character from beginning to 30s in about three or four months max.

Rupard · January 2006

When will this thing come out because all of these other games are catching up in the graphics department and are looking pretty good, they better hope that the game has unbelievable game play otherwise it won't be worth the money.. Man the pressure must be on to finish this thing, I hope you guys are working around the clock and your eyeballs are bleeding because if you don't finish it soon know one will care and you'll all go bankrupt, O' wait you can't go bankrupt anymore, man you guys just better get this thing out, I'm not trying to pressure you I just want to play it before something better come's along, so hurry up!!!!! Like I said, if the game play isn't any good this game will be a flop, because pretty graphics don't make a successful game, WOW proved that.... lets see what you got chumms. NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just make your employees work more and you'll get it finished, they don't need a life, and I need a new game, I think I'm more important dont' you.....

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

I really don't think any other game will ever quite compare to HJ.

Especially since there will CONSTANTLY BE NEW UPDATES.

LIKE. EVERY DAY.

Who cares about graphics, there are games out NOW that probably have at least similar if not better graphics.

This game isn't JUST about looking pretty (Although it does from what I've seen).. The amount of gameplay, even after you LEVEL CAP is going to be MASSIVE. EVERY CHARACTER YOU HAVE WILL BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. YOU COULD MAKE FIFTEEN CHARACTERS AND NONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE THE SAME QUEST-LINE.

So who cares how long it takes. I'd rather wait for them to perfect it, I'm not worried about stupid other games.

And Simu will never go bankrupt, because they will ALWAYS have loyal customers. Especially ones like me, who are willing to PAY OVER 40 DOLLARS A MONTH FOR THIS GAME.

the end

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

Oh look post 100. I'll give some good news along with it in a second.

first I just wanted to add, no, you are not more important.

And then the good news.

I finished my GM design test a week or two ago, and this morning when I woke up, well, basically I'm going to be a world development GM. Just got to go through the hiring process, (paperwork?/training? I'm assuming anyway)

So here's to being an EMPLOYEE who is apparently less important.

Rupard · January 2006

I would agree with you about the MASSIVEness of this game, and all that great stuff but how the heck do you even know any of that, HAVE YOU PLAYED IT? NOOOOOOOO of course not, you can assume that it is massive and endless but who the heck knows. SORRY, i'm just frustrated, I've seen these graphics and I just want to run around in the environments, I apologies I'm just a little impatient.

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

Simu has said they are going to be updating the game constantly. That would mean there will ALWAYS be new things to do.

end-of-boredom here I come. (I gave up on morton's list, nobody will ever play with me)

HJ-Royce · January 2006

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx

Just got to go through the hiring process, (paperwork?/training? I'm assuming anyway)

Don't forget, multiple deaths "at the hands of" those who came before you.

HJ-Sisca · January 2006

First of all...

RUPARD: Breathe son! You're going to pass out if you don't pause every now and then - remember Mr. Period is our friend.

Now that that's out of the way...

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx

And then the good news.
I finished my GM design test a week or two ago, and this morning when I woke up, well, basically I'm going to be a world development GM. Just got to go through the hiring process, (paperwork?/training? I'm assuming anyway)
So here's to being an EMPLOYEE who is apparently less important.

Congrats and welcome to the team!

xDivianaDRx · January 2006

I fear no deaths!

And thanks. I'll make sure to drive you both crazy.

HJ-Sisca · February 2006

Heh! That'll be a short drive ::::31::

HJ-Razu · February 2006

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx

I fear no deaths!
And thanks. I'll make sure to drive you both crazy.

Watch out for that GM Kurrasoe. He's both allergic and jealous of Suwari.

HJ-Zee · February 2006

Probably because they smell like kitty litter!

xDivianaDRx · February 2006

Well I keep the litter box here clean

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