Thinking of Playing EvE? Perhaps reconsider.

Serignuad · May 2014

Originally posted by madazz After reading the first page, I feel some people are drama queens. These are the type of people who won't allow full contact sport in schools. The same people who are against having any activities involving balls (basketballs, footballs and so on) at schools. The same type of person who just tried to get "Hop on Pop" from Dr. Seuss banned from a Library in Toronto.

The funny thing about the whole cultural dynamic of Trolls and Internet Tough-guys vs the Normal People is that the greater social "crime" is genuingly reacting to the very people doing their very utmost to elicit an emotional reaction from you.

You call the OP a "drama queen" and set up some asinine straw man argument about him being a pussy in real life.. and yet Im curious, what did you hope to accomplish by insulting someone you feel is being too sensetive?

What's your motivation? Help him become aware of his faults? Toughen him up a little bit? Express to others your derision for emotions?

In my experience the kind of gamer that belittles others for being too emotional and who equates (publically) reacting to others as "weakness" is exactly the kind of person that rages in real life, pounds on their keyboard, throws their mice and screams insults at their monitors until theyre beat-red in the face.

Ive seen people drama-queen before and Ive dealt with pussys before. The OP sounds like neither. It reads to me like the OP put years into playing Eve and is now reacting to one straw too many. There is a very wide gap between expressing frustration and being a "drama-queen".

While you might pretend you are yourself above reacting emotionally to what happens to you in a game, the OP none the less has made some very valid points.

Eve is hella fun, but it is a very harsh place as far as games go. CCP prides/defines itself by this. CCP will do nothing to police the douchebaggery of its subscribers via GM intervention or action unlike most other MMOs. They simply give you the tools to exact your own in-game means of revenge.

That makes Eve very unique in its sandbox-ness. Its not a bad thing for new players to have some idea of what to expect going in.

Beatnik59 · May 2014

The thing about EVE is that it had the potential to be much more than it is. It's got good lore, good art and good technology. The only problem is that CCP has this fascination with appealing to the gutter element; a gutter element that never fails to drag the game down with it. Seriously, this game would probably be twice as big as it is now if they would clean up their game even just a little bit.

It seems, to me, that you can have FFA PvP, without having to double-down on grief. The grief is going to be there without having to be encouraged. It seems, to me, that you can have player freedom without organized, publisher sanctioned harassment. The problem is, from CCP's perspective, that they are now so wedded to griefs and l0lz as a business strategy, I'm not sure they can clean up their game even if they wanted to. And so, if they can't clean up the gutter, they'll just wallow in the gutter alongside the gutter. At this point, I'm not even sure that CCP runs CCP anymore, or if it is just a wholly-owned subsidiary of SomethingAwful. Either way, the two are joined at the hip now.

I sense there's a part of CCP that wants to break away from that element. But by now, that element is basically all they have left to pay the bills...and so they can't help but double down on what the gutter wants, even when it does nothing to expand this game world's appeal.

The ambulation initiative, DUST, Valkyrie, Aurum, World of Darkness--all of those things shows, to me, that CCP wants to cater to new players and better players; people who want more than "grief in space." And yet, all I see from the gutter is nothing but contempt for anything better. "We don't want no walking in spaceships! We want pew pew!" "Dust? Phooy!"

uplink4242 · May 2014

Originally posted by Beatnik59
The thing about EVE is that it had the potential to be much more than it is. It's got good lore, good art and good technology. The only problem is that CCP has this fascination with appealing to the gutter element; a gutter element that never fails to drag the game down with it. Seriously, this game would probably be twice as big as it is now if they would clean up their game even just a little bit.

It seems, to me, that you can have FFA PvP, without having to double-down on grief. The grief is going to be there without having to be encouraged. It seems, to me, that you can have player freedom without organized, publisher sanctioned harassment. The problem is, from CCP's perspective, that they are now so wedded to griefs and l0lz as a business strategy, I'm not sure they can clean up their game even if they wanted to. And so, if they can't clean up the gutter, they'll just wallow in the gutter alongside the gutter. At this point, I'm not even sure that CCP runs CCP anymore, or if it is just a wholly-owned subsidiary of SomethingAwful. Either way, the two are joined at the hip now.

I sense there's a part of CCP that wants to break away from that element. But by now, that element is basically all they have left to pay the bills...and so they can't help but double down on what the gutter wants, even when it does nothing to expand this game world's appeal.

The ambulation initiative, DUST, Valkyrie, Aurum, World of Darkness--all of those things shows, to me, that CCP wants to cater to new players and better players; people who want more than "grief in space." And yet, all I see from the gutter is nothing but contempt for anything better. "We don't want no walking in spaceships! We want pew pew!" "Dust? Phooy!"

The only one seeing nothing but grief in that game is you (and, funny enough a lot of other people that barely played it). It has lasted 11 years so far, I'd say it's doing fine the way it is now.

Quazal.A · May 2014

Eve has reprobates in no doubt

But all ive seen in this post is whine, whine and more bloody whine from playres who have maybe played for a month or 2 about how they got griefed out , or ripped off by some other player

Then they start to preach about how every new mmo is not a sandbox, well guess what boys and girls you can't have candy and eat it without a big boy coming into your sandbox to kick sand in your face.

Then i see comments about how eve is full of naughty boys and girls who are out to do nothing but harm to other people and in real lift they must be thieves/ criminals or such.. COMPLETE SHIT

I can name probably name 100x more good guys than bad guys in eve.

Here's a few

Vile Rat, -Try googling the name "shaun smith" and see what you come up, and you wont find ANY players in eve who had a badword to say about him - not those who had ANY dealing with him , and he was a goon, the so called worst of the lot. and for record he had been playing eve

Chribba - this guy pays out of his own pocket so players can have tools / websites for free

Every other eve player who donated to the many disaster relief causes, check out the trillions of isk (10,000s of thousands of pounds) donated to the hurricane / typhoon relief in different parts of world

I will quote the fact it has nothing to do with CCP but is player driven - yes them same players who are evil and no good and dont give a hoot about other people

"This isn't a new idea for CCP -- previous PLEX for Good efforts have generated more than $100,000 in donations to victims of natural disasters in Haiti, Japan, Pakistan, and the United States."

So please if your going to critisize a game because you can play skipping down the street, thats fine, but dont think a players motive in game is anything like that of the person playing the game.

Beatnik59 · May 2014

Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Beatnik59
The thing about EVE is that it had the potential to be much more than it is. It's got good lore, good art and good technology. The only problem is that CCP has this fascination with appealing to the gutter element; a gutter element that never fails to drag the game down with it. Seriously, this game would probably be twice as big as it is now if they would clean up their game even just a little bit.

It seems, to me, that you can have FFA PvP, without having to double-down on grief. The grief is going to be there without having to be encouraged. It seems, to me, that you can have player freedom without organized, publisher sanctioned harassment. The problem is, from CCP's perspective, that they are now so wedded to griefs and l0lz as a business strategy, I'm not sure they can clean up their game even if they wanted to. And so, if they can't clean up the gutter, they'll just wallow in the gutter alongside the gutter. At this point, I'm not even sure that CCP runs CCP anymore, or if it is just a wholly-owned subsidiary of SomethingAwful. Either way, the two are joined at the hip now.

I sense there's a part of CCP that wants to break away from that element. But by now, that element is basically all they have left to pay the bills...and so they can't help but double down on what the gutter wants, even when it does nothing to expand this game world's appeal.

The ambulation initiative, DUST, Valkyrie, Aurum, World of Darkness--all of those things shows, to me, that CCP wants to cater to new players and better players; people who want more than "grief in space." And yet, all I see from the gutter is nothing but contempt for anything better. "We don't want no walking in spaceships! We want pew pew!" "Dust? Phooy!"

The only one seeing nothing but grief in that game is you (and, funny enough a lot of other people that barely played it). It has lasted 11 years so far, I'd say it's doing fine the way it is now.

I've played enough EVE in the middle to late 2000s to know that there are good roleplayers there and folks who are doing constructive things. But they aren't the ones who matter to ownership, management or leadership. They are like the entertainers on SWG I knew; they kept on believing that if they just stuck around and were patient, the devs would reward them for their loyalty by giving them the kinds of things they needed to make their experience better. What they failed to realize is that the developers weren't interested in giving them the things they needed, because the developers wanted different kinds of players.

CCP has a fascination with powergamers, they like them, they understand them, they hang out with them and they know how to design systems they like. Grief is just one of those rewards of powergaming that CCP knows will motivate powergamers to throw more of themselves into the game. It is good promotion for those who fantasize or fear such power, which is why CCP itself is fascinated by it. CCP is a developer that has always had a chip on its shoulder. But its bravado masks an inability to learn, change, self-criticize or grow as a publisher and developer.

Yes, EVE has lasted 11 years, doing exactly the same thing, for exactly the same people. And the ones who pay the bills want the same exact thing, for the same exact people. But going beyond the same exact thing, for the same exact people, has become difficult challenge...almost too difficult than it ought to be.

Development and player leadership are now so closely aligned, that CCP seems almost incapable of developing anything that can appeal to anyone outside of the powergaming, l0llergagging status-quo. Their best shot at appealing to anyone outside of their core fans, World of Darkness, was squandered, and I would guess for the same reasons as ambulation was scrubbed: the powergaming 1337ists were against anything that didn't celebrate the kind of powergaming 1337ism they already had on Tranquility. And, what's more, CCP doesn't have the kind of autonomy to create the kinds of games they want anymore, because they always have to answer to the 1337 trust whenever anything has the potential to disrupt the status (emphasize status) quo. Heck. Dust didn't have a prayer, because the most vocal critics of it were the very EVE powers themselves, who are conservative to the point of stagnant.

uplink4242 · May 2014

Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Beatnik59
The thing about EVE is that it had the potential to be much more than it is. It's got good lore, good art and good technology. The only problem is that CCP has this fascination with appealing to the gutter element; a gutter element that never fails to drag the game down with it. Seriously, this game would probably be twice as big as it is now if they would clean up their game even just a little bit.

It seems, to me, that you can have FFA PvP, without having to double-down on grief. The grief is going to be there without having to be encouraged. It seems, to me, that you can have player freedom without organized, publisher sanctioned harassment. The problem is, from CCP's perspective, that they are now so wedded to griefs and l0lz as a business strategy, I'm not sure they can clean up their game even if they wanted to. And so, if they can't clean up the gutter, they'll just wallow in the gutter alongside the gutter. At this point, I'm not even sure that CCP runs CCP anymore, or if it is just a wholly-owned subsidiary of SomethingAwful. Either way, the two are joined at the hip now.

I sense there's a part of CCP that wants to break away from that element. But by now, that element is basically all they have left to pay the bills...and so they can't help but double down on what the gutter wants, even when it does nothing to expand this game world's appeal.

The ambulation initiative, DUST, Valkyrie, Aurum, World of Darkness--all of those things shows, to me, that CCP wants to cater to new players and better players; people who want more than "grief in space." And yet, all I see from the gutter is nothing but contempt for anything better. "We don't want no walking in spaceships! We want pew pew!" "Dust? Phooy!"

The only one seeing nothing but grief in that game is you (and, funny enough a lot of other people that barely played it). It has lasted 11 years so far, I'd say it's doing fine the way it is now.

I've played enough EVE in the middle to late 2000s to know that there are good roleplayers there and folks who are doing constructive things. But they aren't the ones who matter to ownership, management or leadership. They are like the entertainers on SWG I knew; they kept on believing that if they just stuck around and were patient, the devs would reward them for their loyalty by giving them the kinds of things they needed to make their experience better. What they failed to realize is that the developers weren't interested in giving them the things they needed, because the developers wanted different kinds of players.

CCP has a fascination with powergamers, they like them, they understand them, they hang out with them and they know how to design systems they like. Grief is just one of those rewards of powergaming that CCP knows will motivate powergamers to throw more of themselves into the game. It is good promotion for those who fantasize or fear such power, which is why CCP itself is fascinated by it. CCP is a developer that has always had a chip on its shoulder. But its bravado masks an inability to learn, change, self-criticize or grow as a publisher and developer.

Yes, EVE has lasted 11 years, doing exactly the same thing, for exactly the same people. And the ones who pay the bills want the same exact thing, for the same exact people. But going beyond the same exact thing, for the same exact people, has become difficult challenge...almost too difficult than it ought to be.

Development and player leadership are now so closely aligned, that CCP seems almost incapable of developing anything that can appeal to anyone outside of the powergaming, l0llergagging status-quo. Their best shot at appealing to anyone outside of their core fans, World of Darkness, was squandered, and I would guess for the same reasons as ambulation was scrubbed: the powergaming 1337ists were against anything that didn't celebrate the kind of powergaming 1337ism they already had on Tranquility. And, what's more, CCP doesn't have the kind of autonomy to create the kinds of games they want anymore, because they always have to answer to the 1337 trust whenever anything has the potential to disrupt the status (emphasize status) quo. Heck. Dust didn't have a prayer, because the most vocal critics of it were the very EVE powers themselves, who are conservative to the point of stagnant.

Oh I see what you mean. As an eve player currently, I do agree that there's somewhat of an excessive attitude of griefing thesedays, which is especially supported by questionable in-game mechanics that don't have any real purpose than to facilitate that (read: highsec agression mechanics, corp/fleet agression and the primitive permissions system).

Though I kinda disagree with that - ccp knows they have to change certain things if they want their game to ever grow, and it's becomming more and more obvious that these obstacles are only hindering the long-term growth of the game. WoD was initially planned to be pretty much in the same dimension as Eve in terms of player interaction actually (and if you read some of their leaked playtesting guides you can confirm that). It has closed down because CCP just isn't able to keep on par with so many projects at once and the development was extremly slow in the past few years already. I don't think eve players had much to do with that at all.

Beatnik59 · May 2014

Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Beatnik59
The thing about EVE is that it had the potential to be much more than it is. It's got good lore, good art and good technology. The only problem is that CCP has this fascination with appealing to the gutter element; a gutter element that never fails to drag the game down with it. Seriously, this game would probably be twice as big as it is now if they would clean up their game even just a little bit.

It seems, to me, that you can have FFA PvP, without having to double-down on grief. The grief is going to be there without having to be encouraged. It seems, to me, that you can have player freedom without organized, publisher sanctioned harassment. The problem is, from CCP's perspective, that they are now so wedded to griefs and l0lz as a business strategy, I'm not sure they can clean up their game even if they wanted to. And so, if they can't clean up the gutter, they'll just wallow in the gutter alongside the gutter. At this point, I'm not even sure that CCP runs CCP anymore, or if it is just a wholly-owned subsidiary of SomethingAwful. Either way, the two are joined at the hip now.

I sense there's a part of CCP that wants to break away from that element. But by now, that element is basically all they have left to pay the bills...and so they can't help but double down on what the gutter wants, even when it does nothing to expand this game world's appeal.

The ambulation initiative, DUST, Valkyrie, Aurum, World of Darkness--all of those things shows, to me, that CCP wants to cater to new players and better players; people who want more than "grief in space." And yet, all I see from the gutter is nothing but contempt for anything better. "We don't want no walking in spaceships! We want pew pew!" "Dust? Phooy!"

The only one seeing nothing but grief in that game is you (and, funny enough a lot of other people that barely played it). It has lasted 11 years so far, I'd say it's doing fine the way it is now.

I've played enough EVE in the middle to late 2000s to know that there are good roleplayers there and folks who are doing constructive things. But they aren't the ones who matter to ownership, management or leadership. They are like the entertainers on SWG I knew; they kept on believing that if they just stuck around and were patient, the devs would reward them for their loyalty by giving them the kinds of things they needed to make their experience better. What they failed to realize is that the developers weren't interested in giving them the things they needed, because the developers wanted different kinds of players.

CCP has a fascination with powergamers, they like them, they understand them, they hang out with them and they know how to design systems they like. Grief is just one of those rewards of powergaming that CCP knows will motivate powergamers to throw more of themselves into the game. It is good promotion for those who fantasize or fear such power, which is why CCP itself is fascinated by it. CCP is a developer that has always had a chip on its shoulder. But its bravado masks an inability to learn, change, self-criticize or grow as a publisher and developer.

Yes, EVE has lasted 11 years, doing exactly the same thing, for exactly the same people. And the ones who pay the bills want the same exact thing, for the same exact people. But going beyond the same exact thing, for the same exact people, has become difficult challenge...almost too difficult than it ought to be.

Development and player leadership are now so closely aligned, that CCP seems almost incapable of developing anything that can appeal to anyone outside of the powergaming, l0llergagging status-quo. Their best shot at appealing to anyone outside of their core fans, World of Darkness, was squandered, and I would guess for the same reasons as ambulation was scrubbed: the powergaming 1337ists were against anything that didn't celebrate the kind of powergaming 1337ism they already had on Tranquility. And, what's more, CCP doesn't have the kind of autonomy to create the kinds of games they want anymore, because they always have to answer to the 1337 trust whenever anything has the potential to disrupt the status (emphasize status) quo. Heck. Dust didn't have a prayer, because the most vocal critics of it were the very EVE powers themselves, who are conservative to the point of stagnant.

Oh I see what you mean. As an eve player currently, I do agree that there's somewhat of an excessive attitude of griefing thesedays, which is especially supported by questionable in-game mechanics that don't have any real purpose than to facilitate that (read: highsec agression mechanics, corp/fleet agression and the primitive permissions system).

Though I kinda disagree with that - ccp knows they have to change certain things if they want their game to ever grow, and it's becomming more and more obvious that these obstacles are only hindering the long-term growth of the game. WoD was initially planned to be pretty much in the same dimension as Eve in terms of player interaction actually (and if you read some of their leaked playtesting guides you can confirm that). It has closed down because CCP just isn't able to keep on par with so many projects at once and the development was extremly slow in the past few years already. I don't think eve players had much to do with that at all.

I think your observations show the truth about what you are saying. The fact that WoD took its bearings from EVE pretty much shows how CCP is incapable of going beyond the things they know and the gamers they know. Ten minutes in a coffee house will show how the profile of a person who plays Vampire: The Masquerade is way, waaaayyy different than the person who buys into "harden the F up." This was probably why, among other things, they never could get the project to work.

Komandor · May 2014

Originally posted by hfztt
Originally posted by MsPtibiscuit
Is OP really whining because EvE Online is a sandbox game ?

Whine, whine, whine. "CCP did not take my party when I desided to fight the other kids in the sandbox."

Grow up and learn to loose a fight in style.

Well said, man!

Salio69 · May 2014

im getting pretty fed up with eve myself. i've been playing since 2005 and im getting tired of the racism in this game. i've noticed a large increase in racists yelling things like "white power" and degrading and ridiculing people who aren't white. its the main reason why i dont join null sec alliances anymore. i guess in game where the majority of players are white and male, its to be expected. all i can say at this point, i cant wait for star citizen to release so these racists can have the game all to themselves.

Rommie10-284 · May 2014

Originally posted by Salio69
im getting pretty fed up with eve myself. i've been playing since 2005 and im getting tired of the racism in this game. i've noticed a large increase in racists yelling things like "white power" and degrading and ridiculing people who aren't white. its the main reason why i dont join null sec alliances anymore. i guess in game where the majority of players are white and male, its to be expected. all i can say at this point, i cant wait for star citizen to release so these racists can have the game all to themselves.

It's an open secret the EVE power-blocks will try to dominate Star Citizen. Trying and Doing are not the same thing, and their success is more dependent on how the Star Citizen devs react to them than what they'll try to do.

IOW, they've stayed in EVE for so long because an alternative hasn't presented itself - and that's about to change. If the SC devs haven't prepared for what's coming, they'll be Fools and Tools and have no excuses.

kitarad · May 2014

Is there no place where racism can truly be wiped out. Guess not. Recently I was having this discussion with a girlfriend about marriages and how fair women were still considered to get more dowry even among the Indian population in places like Kenya and Malaysia. It's idiotic but there you have it.

Malcanis · May 2014

Originally posted by Rommie10-284
Originally posted by Salio69
im getting pretty fed up with eve myself. i've been playing since 2005 and im getting tired of the racism in this game. i've noticed a large increase in racists yelling things like "white power" and degrading and ridiculing people who aren't white. its the main reason why i dont join null sec alliances anymore. i guess in game where the majority of players are white and male, its to be expected. all i can say at this point, i cant wait for star citizen to release so these racists can have the game all to themselves.

It's an open secret the EVE power-blocks will try to dominate Star Citizen. Trying and Doing are not the same thing, and their success is more dependent on how the Star Citizen devs react to them than what they'll try to do.

IOW, they've stayed in EVE for so long because an alternative hasn't presented itself - and that's about to change. If the SC devs haven't prepared for what's coming, they'll be Fools and Tools and have no excuses.

How do you "dominate" an instanced polyserver game?

jeralan · June 2014

Can anyone recommend an alternative to Eve, where players are allowed to play in peace?

Hazelle · June 2014

Originally posted by jeralan
Can anyone recommend an alternative to Eve, where players are allowed to play in peace?

SWTOR is the game for a person like you.

A person that enjoys sci-fi but wants the privilege to view other players as NPCs will be very happy in SWTOR.

You know what? You should try those things called single player games. There's no filthy humans in those games to stop you from playing the game as you want it to be played even if it's against the game's design.

Quesa · June 2014

CCP doesn't actively encourage griefing and such that you dislike. They do, however, encourage players interacting with each other whether this be perceived good or bad by the receiving/perpetrating party.

Eve Online is a game which has content almost entirely player driven and this is the essence of the game. You can't have the good without the bad, you either learn and adapt or you fizzle out and die...such is life.

hfztt · June 2014

Originally posted by jeralan
Can anyone recommend an alternative to Eve, where players are allowed to play in peace?

Elite: Dangerous and likely Star Citizen will deliver what you are looking for. They will both support game modes that support that playstyle.

Demrocks · June 2014

I dont get why people bash Eve Online for being what it is and call people scum and what not.

It also just happen to have one of the best rooky help channels of any mmo i ever played.

Calling the Goons scum due to their political stance in the game and saying they are bad and monsters......

I gues you never joined them and see how awesome we are and what contend we create in this sandbox.

I gues you think it should have been a happy pandaland where there is no danger........in a space sandbox no less.

Gues you also missed the wars of the real world over recourses like more land or gold ?

Human nature is destructive and what more fun is it to play a game where this matches our own destructive nature without rules ?

Sorry Eve Online is not your mmo, but truth is that our mmo has not yet been topped in a decade of mmo's

It is still the mmo that brings forth headlines across the globe for what we do ingame.

Many study's has been done in this game about tactics / market manipulation / human behavior / and god knows what more.

You should look a little deeper before making a judgement about a sandbox, its a great mmo that offers insane amount of contend made by players that is not seen in any other mmo.

1 mistake from 1 pilot can trigger an event on a unprecedented scale like we have seen in B-R or a an attack like 6VDT.

You carve your own destiny in this mmo, instead of being fed by scripted stuff that developers need to make for you.

To each his own flavors, but i hurts to see people making an opinion without even digging into the great sides this mmo has to offer.

It is a conflict driven mmo with politics on a scale only matched by real life.

it has no bad guys as once you join one of the political power houses it becomes your home and you play with your brothers.

Be it Pandemic Legion / N3 or us the CFC

Its a matter of perspective who are the good guys or the bad guys

I hate them ingame, but drink a beer with them in Reykjavic, thats what Eve Online is about.

Sorry you guys seem to hate this mmo so much :P

Hariken · June 2014

Originally posted by Rigur
Let them have their cesspit. Send as many bad players to that game as possible. Anything to keep them from other games.

Sorry about you being greifed and trolled. That's what these people find fun. Sadly you will have the same thing happen here for posting this.

Its funny but this is why i hope archage does well so these kinds of players have another game besides eve they can go to.

Quesa · June 2014

Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by uplink4242
Originally posted by Beatnik59
The thing about EVE is that it had the potential to be much more than it is. It's got good lore, good art and good technology. The only problem is that CCP has this fascination with appealing to the gutter element; a gutter element that never fails to drag the game down with it. Seriously, this game would probably be twice as big as it is now if they would clean up their game even just a little bit.

It seems, to me, that you can have FFA PvP, without having to double-down on grief. The grief is going to be there without having to be encouraged. It seems, to me, that you can have player freedom without organized, publisher sanctioned harassment. The problem is, from CCP's perspective, that they are now so wedded to griefs and l0lz as a business strategy, I'm not sure they can clean up their game even if they wanted to. And so, if they can't clean up the gutter, they'll just wallow in the gutter alongside the gutter. At this point, I'm not even sure that CCP runs CCP anymore, or if it is just a wholly-owned subsidiary of SomethingAwful. Either way, the two are joined at the hip now.

I sense there's a part of CCP that wants to break away from that element. But by now, that element is basically all they have left to pay the bills...and so they can't help but double down on what the gutter wants, even when it does nothing to expand this game world's appeal.

The ambulation initiative, DUST, Valkyrie, Aurum, World of Darkness--all of those things shows, to me, that CCP wants to cater to new players and better players; people who want more than "grief in space." And yet, all I see from the gutter is nothing but contempt for anything better. "We don't want no walking in spaceships! We want pew pew!" "Dust? Phooy!"

The only one seeing nothing but grief in that game is you (and, funny enough a lot of other people that barely played it). It has lasted 11 years so far, I'd say it's doing fine the way it is now.

I've played enough EVE in the middle to late 2000s to know that there are good roleplayers there and folks who are doing constructive things. But they aren't the ones who matter to ownership, management or leadership. They are like the entertainers on SWG I knew; they kept on believing that if they just stuck around and were patient, the devs would reward them for their loyalty by giving them the kinds of things they needed to make their experience better. What they failed to realize is that the developers weren't interested in giving them the things they needed, because the developers wanted different kinds of players.

CCP has a fascination with powergamers, they like them, they understand them, they hang out with them and they know how to design systems they like. Grief is just one of those rewards of powergaming that CCP knows will motivate powergamers to throw more of themselves into the game. It is good promotion for those who fantasize or fear such power, which is why CCP itself is fascinated by it. CCP is a developer that has always had a chip on its shoulder. But its bravado masks an inability to learn, change, self-criticize or grow as a publisher and developer.

Yes, EVE has lasted 11 years, doing exactly the same thing, for exactly the same people. And the ones who pay the bills want the same exact thing, for the same exact people. But going beyond the same exact thing, for the same exact people, has become difficult challenge...almost too difficult than it ought to be.

Development and player leadership are now so closely aligned, that CCP seems almost incapable of developing anything that can appeal to anyone outside of the powergaming, l0llergagging status-quo. Their best shot at appealing to anyone outside of their core fans, World of Darkness, was squandered, and I would guess for the same reasons as ambulation was scrubbed: the powergaming 1337ists were against anything that didn't celebrate the kind of powergaming 1337ism they already had on Tranquility. And, what's more, CCP doesn't have the kind of autonomy to create the kinds of games they want anymore, because they always have to answer to the 1337 trust whenever anything has the potential to disrupt the status (emphasize status) quo. Heck. Dust didn't have a prayer, because the most vocal critics of it were the very EVE powers themselves, who are conservative to the point of stagnant.

CCP doesn't have a facination with power-gamers and you're just trying to give the impression that they only look for and would only have power-gamers play their game. Any game company would be happy to have 'power-gamers' and insisting that CCP is the only company that would have them is a ridiculous notion derived directly from your own apparent dislike for the game. Game companies put great effort into cultivating loyal players including any you can mention.

It's funny that you emphasise this over anything else about CCP including how it has a 'chip' on it's shoulder despite the very public evidence contrary to your, at best, anecdotal evidence by issuing a public apology about their chosen design path they took a couple years back about producing 'new and shiney' things over balance and bug fixes. CCP is the only company that I've witnessed in the past decade to publicly state such while giving the credit to the players voicing their opposition to the 'new and shiney' plan.

Eve Online has a lot of player turnover, although I'll admit I generally stick to nullSec and large territorial conflicts. Part of the issue might be your misrepresentation on the time scale of Eve vs so many other MMOs. In Eve, time marches much slower in everything from resource gathering and production to inter-regional conflict and ownership changes which happen over months and even sometimes a full year. In the standard MMO of today, players sprint through the 'training' portion of an MMO to the end game where the true content is and even then that end-game content is mowed down by a generous portion of the community who then beg for more.

Development and player leadership may be linked but not as tightly as you insist on portraying to be. There are some CSM members (the 'counsel' of players voted on by the playerbase) that do communicate with the developers but the CSM has actually be made up of a diverse group as of late.

Dust didn't have much of a chance because they platform locked it to a single console of which the market for such is already hyper-saturated. They got dissaproval from their core audience because it wasn't released on the PC, which is where their most successful game currently resides and the players that love the game and the total immersion it provides would have been an immense pool to draw from for potential customers at the release giving it a head start.

WoD was cut in the midst of world wide financial hardships and CCP stated that they tried to expand too quickly too fast. At the time of them putting it on hold (around 2012) there were many issues with a floundering world economy that stagnated instead of improved as annually predicted without fail. Additionally this is when CCP released it's Incarna expansion which is where all of the real problems for Eve Online started up as it was to introduce walking in stations and the micro-transaction store. If that wasn't enough they were trying to ramp up development of Dust 514 which many could easily tell had more traction with the playerbase than WoD did. To top it off, the problems with the core of WoD (the game wasn't really that far along when they purchased the game and dev company that had it), management issues as well as the growing financial concerns of CCP as a whole, they decided to pull the plug.

Hazelle · June 2014

Originally posted by hfztt
Originally posted by jeralan
Can anyone recommend an alternative to Eve, where players are allowed to play in peace?

Elite: Dangerous and likely Star Citizen will deliver what you are looking for. They will both support game modes that support that playstyle.

Happy to inform you that according to the blog by the person making Star Citizen; it's going to discourage griefing thru ingame mechanics not by preventing it from happening.

What other game does that? Hmmmmmmmmm....

Infact, he's stolen most of his death mechanics from eve online except that in star citizen there's perma death. WHAT?!!?!?!

Yep, permanent death; you read that correctly.

So, not only is there griefing but you can permanently kill player characters too.

I'm afraid Star Citizen isn't going to be the game for you either...

Quesa · June 2014

Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by hfztt
Originally posted by jeralan
Can anyone recommend an alternative to Eve, where players are allowed to play in peace?

Elite: Dangerous and likely Star Citizen will deliver what you are looking for. They will both support game modes that support that playstyle.

Happy to inform you that according to the blog by the person making Star Citizen; it's going to discourage griefing thru ingame mechanics not by preventing it from happening.

What other game does that? Hmmmmmmmmm....

Infact, he's stolen most of his death mechanics from eve online except that in star citizen there's perma death. WHAT?!!?!?!

Yep, permanent death; you read that correctly.

So, not only is there griefing but you can permanently kill player characters too.

I'm afraid Star Citizen isn't going to be the game for you either...

And they do this because, "the character that you are leveling up and customizing is really your spaceship. Your avatar is really just a visual representation of your in-game character" which means losing your actual avatar isn't all as horrible as you attempt to make it seem. Since your in-game character is just a visual representation of 'you', "the loss of your character is more a cosmetic and textural outcome, especially as almost all of the assets you’ve worked hard to accumulate pass on to the beneficiary that you specified when creating your original character".

So what may be described as a "permanent death" of your avatar, it's not really a 'perma-death' game mechanic.

Things could obviously change though...

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/12879-Death-Of-A-Spaceman

haplo602 · June 2014

Wow, threadnought :-))

I played EVE for some 6-7 years myself (2005 - 2012 with some breaks). The fun part is, I never encountered what you are talking about.

Anyway, you have to understand one thing:

THERE IS NOT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE GAME AND REAL LIFE !!! NONE !!!

Basically if you bring your real life intio the game world and get it twisted back to you, it is your problem. If the griefing actions in the context of the game are ok, any connection to real life is your problem and your fault.

While the above might sound harsh, EVE is a game that requires you to actually play a different person once you log in. To forget about the real world and simply transform into a virtual entity that ony exist in the context of the EVE universe. Otherwise you CANNOT ENJOY THE GAME.

That is my experience, yours of course is different.

Now I would expect CCP to ban the stalkers that you reported because they crossed the line. If they simply followed you and used the usual badmouthing etc. that would be ok. Using racist/sexual harassment out of the context of the game (I.e. Amarr vs Minmatar racism is OK, as it is in the context of the game) should get them banned (and any alt accounts/identifiable accounts for them as well).

For one thing, CCP is aware that if they overstep the moderation line, the game will die. However that does not excuse their inaction in some cases.

Akerbeltz · June 2014

Well, well, well, here we go again with the hypocrisy, witch hunting, disingenuity, hyperbole and general demagogy.

Not long ago, there was another thread discussing the Erotica 1's affair and how terrible the EVE community is, full of rapists and psychopaths, and hustlers and pimps and heathens and mass murderers

This a tiresome subject for me and I lack Teala's patience or diplomatic skills, unfortunately.

Suffice to say that both OP and his/her sycophants are full of it. Excuse me, but wtf are you doing here?

EVE: Best and most helpful and sincere (yes, sincere, not the hypocrite passive-agressive do-gooder elitist morons that populate the hand-holding crap out there) community ever, besides UO.

BailoPan15 · June 2014

Originally posted by DrunkWolf
Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
Griefing has been around since early computer based gaming has been around. The intention of the griefer is to cause annoyance, loss, or unpleasantness for the victim. In extreme cases griefing causes people to quit playing a game as their ability to enjoy the game is curtailed. In such instances its counter productive for the games company to allow such activity in its game. It loses subscriptions, which causes loss of revenue. Griefing also causes damage to the reputation of the company and the game that company runs.

Not so for EvE Online. CCP Games actively support and encourage player griefing against its 'carebear' and 'newbie' population. When Goonswarm held its Burn Jita event, an event designed to bypass the usual 24 hours of notice in high sec wars, by taking an armada of ships into high sec's Jita trade system and suicide killing any and every player they could, CCP not only did nothing, they actively encouraged it.

When Goonswarms leader stood up and belittled, humiliated, shared private correspondence and encouraged a player to commit suicide at CCP's fanfest, both the audience and developers who were presence laughed along with him. Was he permbanned, no.

Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition. They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space. They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him. A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game. What did CCP do? Nothing.

In the last few weeks the Erotica1fiasco, in which a player and his wife were victimised, harassed and had a disability mocked caused CCP to reevaluate its stance on griefing. Their response. Well it was actually nothing and meant nothing. They reserved the right to decide when someone has crossed the line between "normal" griefing and "naughty" griefing. Erotica1 was banned however only after 6 weeks and huge community outcry, including a 300 page threadnaught, that might have caused CCP to get some bad press.

And of course Erotica1 is back with a new alt, running the exact same scam with the same bonus rooms that led to the outcry.

Do the developers simply turn a blind eye to this conduct or are they complicit in it? A recent event led by the developers themselves involved inviting a large number of "carebears" from highsec into null sec (the main area set aside for PvP) and into the welcoming arms of a waiting gate camp (basically EvE's main form of PvP - Spawncamping). Mistake? Highly unlikely. It seems more than likely that they leaked the location of this event to the alliance in question with the express purpose of feeding their players to the waiting alliance.

That the developers and certain players in the game are linked by more than a customer / developer relationship was demonstrated when the developers staged an event in the home system of one of the most powerful alliances in the game. The leader of whom is an ex-CCP developer themselves. On this occasion the developers dropped 800 billion isk worth of items exclusively to this player entity.

Which brings me to my own experience with griefing and developer apathy. In early February I decided to help a group of players set up a non-kill on sight area in Stain null sec. At this same time a player or players created 3 alt accounts, sent those alts out to Stain where they proceeded to follow me from system to system, verbally abusing me in local for hours at a time. I was called a pedophile and accused of watching child pornography as well as being subjected to constant foul language. This went on non-stop for 4 months.

I managed to get the player or players in question to admit they were specifically targeting me for harassment and petitioned them. Even though I supplied the GM's with screenshots in which the player states they are specifically targeting me for harassment no action was taken against those players. Given the characters in question were using cloaks which prevents any retaliation I was not able to take any in game action against them.

I then went to the forums and posted about this issue. The forum post I created was trolled incessantly, I was insulted, abused, belittled and villified for over 23 pages and then my thread locked by mods for 'breaching a rule of discussing GM actions' while the people who had spent hours of their time harassing and mocking my situation received no punishment at all.

I unsubscribed my accounts and posted a message to CCP in the Out of Pod Experience subforum regarding the lack of moderation and the lack of support dealing with my harassment and that thread was also subjected to trolling, spam, and anti-social posts which breached almost every rule of the forums. Yet no action was taken against those players.

So if you're an aweful person, you like to cause other players to feel bad, you like to cause pain to people who have cancer, you enjoy trolling, you enjoy making fun of people with disabilities, you like being led into a traps by developers, you're okay with developer favoritism, you enjoy flying around in space with corporations that have names like "Creampie Carpet Munchers" and your a general asshat then EvE online is likely for you.

For normal people, I'd suggest a different game.

Infinity Ziona

it reminds me of how people treat each other in real life.

You need to get out of the basement. People do not treat each other like that...

Akerbeltz · June 2014

Originally posted by BailoPan15
Originally posted by DrunkWolf

it reminds me of how people treat each other in real life.

You need to get out of the basement. People do not treat each other like that...

Aaah, the irony...

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