Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Not necessarily. Mastery takes time, but mastery dictated by challenge is far more variable and player-dependent than mastery dictated by time, which essentially either grinding or waiting to reach an arbitrary milestone.
I prefer challenge, and would really like to see more progression systems like the one in Puzzle Pirates.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your poll presupposes that you can acquire said items, eventually. To me that is the big flaw with games now... the notion that everyone will get everything if they work at it long enough. Well, if everyone can get it, it's not worth acquiring. There should always be a game of chance. And no I don't mean loot roll chance, I mean the real possibility that you can never attain it.
You go to college, you may or may not succeed and get a degree of your choosing. Theoretically it is obtainable by all, but not everyone will succeed. Then, even after acquiring said degree, there is the search for a job in your field of study. Again, theoretically, having a degree should improve your odds of getting a job in your field, but as we all know, that is not the case at all. It's still a game of chance no matter how you look at it.
There should be things in place in game which alter the outcome of your character to such a degree as to make obtaining certain things unobtainable. The decision to not kill 10 rats for the little girl by the river set into motion a series of events that altered the probability that you would succeed. You can't fix it once the decision has been made. The little girl doesn't like you anymore. You could create a new character, but then, you might overlook the fact that killing that squirrel for kicks also altered your path in ways that will not become known to you later on. Imagine all the wiki pages that would need to be written to map out all the various things you can and cannot do if you wish to acquire prestige. Eventually people will have figured out the puzzle but not before having played the game a few times.
That is what MMOs should be like, not endless grind mills in which the outcome is inevitable and predictable. You should be playing the game, not focusing on the sword of a thousand truths.
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I like challenges you can ease with time. If you can't beat it on your 1st attempt, there should be something you could do to make it easier next time (gear up, gain levels, raise skills, etc).
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Not necessarily. Mastery takes time, but mastery dictated by challenge is far more variable and player-dependent than mastery dictated by time, which essentially either grinding or waiting to reach an arbitrary milestone. I prefer challenge, and would really like to see more progression systems like the one in Puzzle Pirates.
I am not sure. Would you view an encounter as a challenge if it took 3 minutes to get past, no matter one's Mastery?
I agree that "Mastery" factors into the equation, I am struggling to figure out how Is there a point where one's "Mastery" makes encounters no longer challenging, at which point, over too quickly?
Or am I looking at this in the wrong light?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Slightly OT but that has got to be one of the most eye catching OPs I've seen since joining this site.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
You are absolutely wrong. It is easy mode to get your health back instantly after a fight and keep going continuously with little worry. There is no strategy there. Having to plan things out and be careful in what you do is difficult.
A lot of things in life are tedious to a lot of people. To me doing a thousand quests, non stop easy combat, and following a GPS are tedious.
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
You are absolutely wrong. It is easy mode to get your health back instantly after a fight and keep going continuously with little worry. There is no strategy there. Having to plan things out and be careful in what you do is difficult.
A lot of things in life are tedious to a lot of people. To me doing a thousand quests, non stop easy combat, and following a GPS are tedious.
BS ... you keep dying and never kill the boss. You don't need a single second of down-time to make it challenging.
How are you going to keep going when the fight reset? You are just using a failed example to make a failed point.
Are you telling me that D3 torment 6 bosses are not challenging? How many have you killed? And that game has zero down-time. (In fact, back in the first release, it was notorious challenging .. like hitting a wall and cannot progress).
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
You are absolutely wrong. It is easy mode to get your health back instantly after a fight and keep going continuously with little worry. There is no strategy there. Having to plan things out and be careful in what you do is difficult.
A lot of things in life are tedious to a lot of people. To me doing a thousand quests, non stop easy combat, and following a GPS are tedious.
BS ... you keep dying and never kill the boss. You don't need a single second of down-time to make it challenging.
How are you going to keep going when the fight reset? You are just using a failed example to make a failed point.
Are you telling me that D3 torment 6 bosses are not challenging? How many have you killed? And that game has zero down-time. (In fact, back in the first release, it was notorious challenging .. like hitting a wall and cannot progress).
I believe id rather watch paint dry on a wall then play Diablo 3 to the point where it becomes challenging.
You prove my point wither way. You obviously have a different idea of fun.
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
You are absolutely wrong. It is easy mode to get your health back instantly after a fight and keep going continuously with little worry. There is no strategy there. Having to plan things out and be careful in what you do is difficult.
A lot of things in life are tedious to a lot of people. To me doing a thousand quests, non stop easy combat, and following a GPS are tedious.
BS ... you keep dying and never kill the boss. You don't need a single second of down-time to make it challenging.
How are you going to keep going when the fight reset? You are just using a failed example to make a failed point.
Are you telling me that D3 torment 6 bosses are not challenging? How many have you killed? And that game has zero down-time. (In fact, back in the first release, it was notorious challenging .. like hitting a wall and cannot progress).
I believe id rather watch paint dry on a wall then play Diablo 3 to the point where it becomes challenging.
You prove my point wither way. You obviously have a different idea of fun.
Now you are changing the subject.
I suppose you have no choice but to agree that you don't need down-time to have challenges .. as D3 has proved.
Sure, you don't like the game .. but that is irrelevant to the point. You cannot argue that it is not challenging.
Originally posted by monotom I wander if anything was learned from this ordeal .Choice what is fun for you ,but remember that the others want to have fun too.
What do the others have to do with anything? If i dont like them for any reason i can hit the quit button. They can do the same.
Originally posted by monotom I wander if anything was learned from this ordeal .Choice what is fun for you ,but remember that the others want to have fun too.
What do the others have to do with anything? If i dont like them for any reason i can hit the quit button. They can do the same.
I chose time because this addresses only a small subset of my enjoyment. I rarely enjoy, strive for, or even think about earning prestige or rare items, but when I do I prefer to use time as a measurement.
Originally posted by Takoo Challenge is time. Most people don't understand that. If you could beat or get something the first time around it wasn't very hard.
Exactly my thoughts. What makes an encounter challenging is the time it takes to figure out how to overcome it.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
You are absolutely wrong. It is easy mode to get your health back instantly after a fight and keep going continuously with little worry. There is no strategy there. Having to plan things out and be careful in what you do is difficult.
A lot of things in life are tedious to a lot of people. To me doing a thousand quests, non stop easy combat, and following a GPS are tedious.
BS ... you keep dying and never kill the boss. You don't need a single second of down-time to make it challenging.
How are you going to keep going when the fight reset? You are just using a failed example to make a failed point.
Are you telling me that D3 torment 6 bosses are not challenging? How many have you killed? And that game has zero down-time. (In fact, back in the first release, it was notorious challenging .. like hitting a wall and cannot progress).
Here is where we go off track. You are right, we don't NEED downtime to add excitement. But the inclusion of downtime does not diminish the excitement for us. Yes, it diminishes it, PER SECOND, but not overall.
Our idea of excitement can be spread out, we don't need it to be all contained within a three second fight (average time to get mob from 100% to 0% HP in WoW).
This is why, later in the post, he calls you a child. Children are notorious for needing instant gratification, being unable to delay it.
Here is where we go off track. You are right, we don't NEED downtime to add excitement. But the inclusion of downtime does not diminish the excitement for us. Yes, it diminishes it, PER SECOND, but not overall.
It diminishes fun/excitement for me. If i want any down-time, i can turn off the computer and do something else. If it is forced upon me in a game, it is bad (for me).
Comments
Not necessarily. Mastery takes time, but mastery dictated by challenge is far more variable and player-dependent than mastery dictated by time, which essentially either grinding or waiting to reach an arbitrary milestone.
I prefer challenge, and would really like to see more progression systems like the one in Puzzle Pirates.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your poll presupposes that you can acquire said items, eventually. To me that is the big flaw with games now... the notion that everyone will get everything if they work at it long enough. Well, if everyone can get it, it's not worth acquiring. There should always be a game of chance. And no I don't mean loot roll chance, I mean the real possibility that you can never attain it.
You go to college, you may or may not succeed and get a degree of your choosing. Theoretically it is obtainable by all, but not everyone will succeed. Then, even after acquiring said degree, there is the search for a job in your field of study. Again, theoretically, having a degree should improve your odds of getting a job in your field, but as we all know, that is not the case at all. It's still a game of chance no matter how you look at it.
There should be things in place in game which alter the outcome of your character to such a degree as to make obtaining certain things unobtainable. The decision to not kill 10 rats for the little girl by the river set into motion a series of events that altered the probability that you would succeed. You can't fix it once the decision has been made. The little girl doesn't like you anymore. You could create a new character, but then, you might overlook the fact that killing that squirrel for kicks also altered your path in ways that will not become known to you later on. Imagine all the wiki pages that would need to be written to map out all the various things you can and cannot do if you wish to acquire prestige. Eventually people will have figured out the puzzle but not before having played the game a few times.
That is what MMOs should be like, not endless grind mills in which the outcome is inevitable and predictable. You should be playing the game, not focusing on the sword of a thousand truths.
Not all time = challenge. At most some. Time spending on down-time .. walking to dungeons ... search for the right vendor ... are not challenging .. just boring.
Both.
I like challenges you can ease with time. If you can't beat it on your 1st attempt, there should be something you could do to make it easier next time (gear up, gain levels, raise skills, etc).
I agree that "Mastery" factors into the equation, I am struggling to figure out how
Is there a point where one's "Mastery" makes encounters no longer challenging, at which point, over too quickly?
Or am I looking at this in the wrong light?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I would disagree with that. I know you have posted this many times. I can say why it was challenging to have things like down time and walking to dungeons.
Downtime adds to the challenge because you have to be careful about what you are doing. If you kill a few mobs, sit down to rest, and another group comes at you or your group you are in big trouble since your hp/mp is not at full. If you are almost immediately at full health after a fight there is no risk and no need to be careful.
Walking to a dungeon could and has been a very dangerous task in old games. Just exploring around it was possible to agro a nasty mob that I couldn't easily get away from. Possible a mob that might kill me in a few hits or that would root, snare, or fear me for long period of time.
Everything had a purpose. It wasn't there just to waste your time.
I agree with Loktofeit's distinction.
Slightly OT but that has got to be one of the most eye catching OPs I've seen since joining this site.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Being careful is not challenging, it is just annoying. Being careful during the fight fine ... being careful with nothing to do for 10 min ... is easy-mode filler gaming. No down-time is ever challenging. Keeping watch is a boring and easy-mode activity ... much less fun than trying to figure out how to fight.
You are absolutely wrong. It is easy mode to get your health back instantly after a fight and keep going continuously with little worry. There is no strategy there. Having to plan things out and be careful in what you do is difficult.
A lot of things in life are tedious to a lot of people. To me doing a thousand quests, non stop easy combat, and following a GPS are tedious.
BS ... you keep dying and never kill the boss. You don't need a single second of down-time to make it challenging.
How are you going to keep going when the fight reset? You are just using a failed example to make a failed point.
Are you telling me that D3 torment 6 bosses are not challenging? How many have you killed? And that game has zero down-time. (In fact, back in the first release, it was notorious challenging .. like hitting a wall and cannot progress).
The answer to this, much like many things, is balance.
I like challenging content that takes a long time to do.
I believe id rather watch paint dry on a wall then play Diablo 3 to the point where it becomes challenging.
You prove my point wither way. You obviously have a different idea of fun.
Now you are changing the subject.
I suppose you have no choice but to agree that you don't need down-time to have challenges .. as D3 has proved.
Sure, you don't like the game .. but that is irrelevant to the point. You cannot argue that it is not challenging.
What do the others have to do with anything? If i dont like them for any reason i can hit the quit button. They can do the same.
Your too young to get it.
I chose time because this addresses only a small subset of my enjoyment. I rarely enjoy, strive for, or even think about earning prestige or rare items, but when I do I prefer to use time as a measurement.
Challenge is its own reward.
Here is where we go off track. You are right, we don't NEED downtime to add excitement. But the inclusion of downtime does not diminish the excitement for us. Yes, it diminishes it, PER SECOND, but not overall.
Our idea of excitement can be spread out, we don't need it to be all contained within a three second fight (average time to get mob from 100% to 0% HP in WoW).
This is why, later in the post, he calls you a child. Children are notorious for needing instant gratification, being unable to delay it.
It diminishes fun/excitement for me. If i want any down-time, i can turn off the computer and do something else. If it is forced upon me in a game, it is bad (for me).