Arch to answer your question, the answer is bigger raids (say 40 aka old wow) undertuned on all but skill check fights giving scope to allow a bigger variation in performance - then van bloody gear scores are be a bit more social
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
why does noone blame tetris of beeing just a horrible grind? because of the challenge it presents- the repetetive gameplay is challenging enough that playing it is fun.
mmorpgs lack that - they require no thinking, no fast reaction, nothing at all to progess, stupid bots succesfully leveling in mmorpgs are just another proof of that.
The worst part is the start of any mmorppg - hurray you get 1 button to press for attacking - you can do this shit now for 2hours then you can press 2 buttons for the next 6hours - its so stupid staring at the wall is just as challenging.
Angry Joe pointed this out in his Wildstar MMO beta review and it caught my attention because it is something I also wanted for a while now.
But how about we cut the traditional MMO Grind all together?
What sort of MMO would we have if we did this?
Do anybody here have any ideas and suggestions for "Cutting the Traditional MMO Grind"?
I enjoy working (grinding) towards a goal even if all of that work isn't always fun. I get bored of doing things just for fun fairly quickly and anything I do for a long time that is just for fun eventually becomes not fun unless it has a goal that I'm working towards. I get most of my enjoyment out of working towards and accomplishing those goals. For example, I played a lot of sports through college, I didn't necessarily enjoy all of the activities I had to do in order to prepare for those sports but I enjoyed the activity overall because I was working towards a goal.
If I just want fun for a short period of time I'll go play a FPS or some other mindless game. I play MMOs for the long term advancement and achieving goals. I have no problem with making some different non-goal oriented MMOs, although I don't really think those would be MMORPGs, but I would object to a push to make them all that way.
This is the problem, not everything in mmo needs to be a 'challenge' to be fun, I and many other enjoy gathering and farming with long term goals. The problem is people trying to attach single play design elements to a different style of game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Grind is not a problem in MMO's, it's a core element in MMO's tbh, the problem is when a game consist of nothing else than some simple grind. So no, lets not get rid of the grind, but lets come up with enough varying content in every mmorpg, some grind, some non-grind.
"Grind" is a feeling you get when the game play is too repetitive. First need is exciting and engaging combat, which is subjective. Next is content that you don't have to go out of your way to get to each step of the way. IMO the only MMO to come close to that as compared to other titles is GW2 leveling. I hear the endgame feels like a grind as well though I'm not that far.
I have been thinking about this..and what I say is keep it simple...How about an mmo with 2 modes??
Like one mode would be your typical mmo mode (sandbox or other) and the second mode would be an arcade style...Just a rough suggestion. ^^
Actually that is exactly what Age of Wushu implemented for their upcoming expansion Path of Chivalry in China (not to be confused with older version deployed recently on US servers).
The core MMO mode remain the same but players could switch to free roam adventure mode with maximum of 10 random players per 20 sq km in new maps and enhanced battle system for different experience.
"A game is fun if it is learnable but not trivial" -- Togelius & Schmidhuber
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Good idea. I'm all for it. Get rid of the traditional grind.
1. What is the traditional grind? 2. How do you get rid of it?
It's easy to just say vague empty things. It's like saying, "Just make a fun game"
1. Doing more or less exactly the same thing over and over and over.
2. Add some dang variations to what we do in the game.
They don't actually have to invent stuff, they can just use mechanics other games already have, but mix them better. It is actually not that hard. Of course inventing new stuff to do in a MMO is excellent if it works but it isn't a must to make the game feel less grindy.
At like. Isn't that what wow did. Took the old method odd sit in spot and camp mobs to get xp and added mute ways to level to max: quests pvp gathering and people still call grind.
I agree that if there is any way to get rid of the repetitious grind the only way is more variety. In just people just complain about a new grind
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Good idea. I'm all for it. Get rid of the traditional grind.
1. What is the traditional grind? 2. How do you get rid of it?
It's easy to just say vague empty things. It's like saying, "Just make a fun game"
1. Doing more or less exactly the same thing over and over and over.
2. Add some dang variations to what we do in the game.
They don't actually have to invent stuff, they can just use mechanics other games already have, but mix them better. It is actually not that hard. Of course inventing new stuff to do in a MMO is excellent if it works but it isn't a must to make the game feel less grindy.
I agree with this whole heartedly, but I don't see it as removing the grind, but rather adding many more of them so players can choose to do different things day to day.
The solution isn't to remove the grind, We actually need more of them. Having one or 2 grinds in a game sucks, then it really is a grind, but having 5 or 6 won't feel like it so much. And will take your game that you are done in 3 months and make it last 12 - 18 months. When expansions could stave that off again.
i cannot phatom how people are thinking. removing the grind from MMO's?
It is the equivalent of having a soccer match and just remove all the gametime and just have the teams shoot penalty's, who scores most of em wins
You already have em They are called moba's
Are FPS games being haunted by these same kind of things? I need more RTS in my FPS or else it would suck...
Honestly leave genre's alone. your genre has already been created there is no need to further destroy another genre.
Why? If people are not happy with games in this genre, shouldnt they voice their opinion. In fact, shouldnt genre adapts for their audience. If mmos are still all like uo and eq, there will be a lot fewer players.
There is no developer on this planet that can afford to make enough content without grind,the game would be over quick or very very boring.
People seem to forget that grind is a feeling of self accomplishment.Think of it like building a Hot rod,that might takes years of your life,many hours every weekend,but the end result is a lot of satisfaction.If the game you play is not offering a feeling of satisfaction,it is not the grind's fault but the game itself.
Also more importantly is that if you are enjoying yourself it should not be called a grind.That would be like someone grinding through a book,maybe 3 thousand pages long,they don't consider it a grind because they enjoy reading that book.
The way i see it is that people who complain about grind really should not be in that game period.It seems more like they just want some satisfaction of attaining end level as fast as possible and feel like level numbers is some sort of satisfaction.
I can't speak for others but for myself,i couldn't care less about level numbers,my fun is in exploration,combat and my character.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
i cannot phatom how people are thinking. removing the grind from MMO's?
It is the equivalent of having a soccer match and just remove all the gametime and just have the teams shoot penalty's, who scores most of em wins
You already have em They are called moba's
Are FPS games being haunted by these same kind of things? I need more RTS in my FPS or else it would suck...
Honestly leave genre's alone. your genre has already been created there is no need to further destroy another genre.
Why? If people are not happy with games in this genre, shouldnt they voice their opinion. In fact, shouldnt genre adapts for their audience. If mmos are still all like uo and eq, there will be a lot fewer players.
If you are not happy with your job as lets say a baker.
You will not try to change to bakery into a butchery because that is what u like more.
No u will leave the bakery and start working at a butchery.
so if people are not happy in mmo's they can f off and go somewhere else. becaue the things they like already exist.
Exactly, If you have mmorgs as a genre, and fps battleground games as a genre and you prefer the latter - you don't say I like fps, make all mmorgs fps. Imagine If 50 million mine craft players suddenly decided themeparks were for them and complained that the graphics and gameplay of mmorgs was boring and they wanted to build castles.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
i cannot phatom how people are thinking. removing the grind from MMO's?
It is the equivalent of having a soccer match and just remove all the gametime and just have the teams shoot penalty's, who scores most of em wins
You already have em They are called moba's
Are FPS games being haunted by these same kind of things? I need more RTS in my FPS or else it would suck...
Honestly leave genre's alone. your genre has already been created there is no need to further destroy another genre.
Why? If people are not happy with games in this genre, shouldnt they voice their opinion. In fact, shouldnt genre adapts for their audience. If mmos are still all like uo and eq, there will be a lot fewer players.
If you are not happy with your job as lets say a baker.
You will not try to change to bakery into a butchery because that is what u like more.
No u will leave the bakery and start working at a butchery.
so if people are not happy in mmo's they can f off and go somewhere else. becaue the things they like already exist.
I agree here, to a point. Unfortunately, the publishers and developers seem to agree with Nariusseldon (To take your analogy out a bit further) It's the shop owner who In the last 10 years, has seen an increase in people who want meat. So the Bakery added a meat section, sacrificing some of the bakery to put in some half assed excuse for a butchery. So now the Bakery thinks it can service both sets of customers at the same time, but then wonders why so few customers purchase meat or bread from him. MMORPGs have changed to adapt and continue to attract the action gamer. In doing so, have left behind some what made them MMORPGs and now they are poor games from whatever angle you look at them from. They can't keep action gamers for long and they certainly don't do well to keep the players looking for a good old fashioned long term game anymore.This new generation of MMORPGs are just getting worse and worse. And what are the devs doing about it? Making combat more exciting. Yeah, OK, But no matter how exciting it gets, sooner than later it gets un-exciting. And based on recent interviews, I don't think they are getting the hint.
Modern MMOs thrive off of the grind because it feeds dopamine to the players brains. It is what keeps them playing. Getting those shiny pixels is what makes an MMO an MMO.
What I think you are looking for is something much more. You are looking for a virtual world. SWG and Ultima Online were almost there. You want a world you can join your friends in and set off on an adventure. You aren't concerned with killing 10 rats or moving quest hub to quest hub. You don't want to enter an instanced solo adventure. You want an open-world that can be affected by every player. You want impacting politics and meaningful quests. You want to craft useful items for your friends. You want to build or destroy the world you live in. You want to architect your character to your play style, not some hodgepodge of skills a developer might throw together.
This game does not exist and might never. Everquest Next looks like it is trying this out, and we will have to see how it goes.
What is wrong with you? Who are you to tell people what is and isn't fun? I actually like the quest chains and what you call the grind. But screw me, right?
PvP centric games, imho, would be better without any levels.
It would also be possible to replace level or skill based toon grind, with gear grind, which is what happens at 'end game' anyway. May as well start there at the begining.
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
why does noone blame tetris of beeing just a horrible grind? because of the challenge it presents- the repetetive gameplay is challenging enough that playing it is fun.
mmorpgs lack that - they require no thinking, no fast reaction, nothing at all to progess, stupid bots succesfully leveling in mmorpgs are just another proof of that.
The worst part is the start of any mmorppg - hurray you get 1 button to press for attacking - you can do this shit now for 2hours then you can press 2 buttons for the next 6hours - its so stupid staring at the wall is just as challenging.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I enjoy working (grinding) towards a goal even if all of that work isn't always fun. I get bored of doing things just for fun fairly quickly and anything I do for a long time that is just for fun eventually becomes not fun unless it has a goal that I'm working towards. I get most of my enjoyment out of working towards and accomplishing those goals. For example, I played a lot of sports through college, I didn't necessarily enjoy all of the activities I had to do in order to prepare for those sports but I enjoyed the activity overall because I was working towards a goal.
If I just want fun for a short period of time I'll go play a FPS or some other mindless game. I play MMOs for the long term advancement and achieving goals. I have no problem with making some different non-goal oriented MMOs, although I don't really think those would be MMORPGs, but I would object to a push to make them all that way.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Well , grind are one of many way to keep player playing game ,
but the most effect way to keep player playing your game are how well you hide the reward and the hard of the puzzle.
For example ,
you put 1000 difference rabbits in the game , then the puzzle are : find and kill all 1000 bunny , but some of them are well hide.
This quest can keep player busy for few days to months ,
Or find a certain treasure hide somewhere (spawn random) under sea .
There are many kind of puzzle for PVE , but it need good brains to .. make and solve .
Not lazy design wise
Actually that is exactly what Age of Wushu implemented for their upcoming expansion Path of Chivalry in China (not to be confused with older version deployed recently on US servers).
The core MMO mode remain the same but players could switch to free roam adventure mode with maximum of 10 random players per 20 sq km in new maps and enhanced battle system for different experience.
"A game is fun if it is learnable but not trivial" -- Togelius & Schmidhuber
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
1. Doing more or less exactly the same thing over and over and over.
2. Add some dang variations to what we do in the game.
They don't actually have to invent stuff, they can just use mechanics other games already have, but mix them better. It is actually not that hard. Of course inventing new stuff to do in a MMO is excellent if it works but it isn't a must to make the game feel less grindy.
i cannot phatom how people are thinking. removing the grind from MMO's?
It is the equivalent of having a soccer match and just remove all the gametime and just have the teams shoot penalty's, who scores most of em wins
You already have em They are called moba's
Are FPS games being haunted by these same kind of things? I need more RTS in my FPS or else it would suck...
Honestly leave genre's alone. your genre has already been created there is no need to further destroy another genre.
I agree that if there is any way to get rid of the repetitious grind the only way is more variety. In just people just complain about a new grind
I agree with this whole heartedly, but I don't see it as removing the grind, but rather adding many more of them so players can choose to do different things day to day.
The solution isn't to remove the grind, We actually need more of them. Having one or 2 grinds in a game sucks, then it really is a grind, but having 5 or 6 won't feel like it so much. And will take your game that you are done in 3 months and make it last 12 - 18 months. When expansions could stave that off again.
Options. That's what MMOs are missing these days.
Why? If people are not happy with games in this genre, shouldnt they voice their opinion. In fact, shouldnt genre adapts for their audience. If mmos are still all like uo and eq, there will be a lot fewer players.
There is no developer on this planet that can afford to make enough content without grind,the game would be over quick or very very boring.
People seem to forget that grind is a feeling of self accomplishment.Think of it like building a Hot rod,that might takes years of your life,many hours every weekend,but the end result is a lot of satisfaction.If the game you play is not offering a feeling of satisfaction,it is not the grind's fault but the game itself.
Also more importantly is that if you are enjoying yourself it should not be called a grind.That would be like someone grinding through a book,maybe 3 thousand pages long,they don't consider it a grind because they enjoy reading that book.
The way i see it is that people who complain about grind really should not be in that game period.It seems more like they just want some satisfaction of attaining end level as fast as possible and feel like level numbers is some sort of satisfaction.
I can't speak for others but for myself,i couldn't care less about level numbers,my fun is in exploration,combat and my character.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
If you are not happy with your job as lets say a baker.
You will not try to change to bakery into a butchery because that is what u like more.
No u will leave the bakery and start working at a butchery.
so if people are not happy in mmo's they can f off and go somewhere else. becaue the things they like already exist.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I agree here, to a point. Unfortunately, the publishers and developers seem to agree with Nariusseldon (To take your analogy out a bit further) It's the shop owner who In the last 10 years, has seen an increase in people who want meat. So the Bakery added a meat section, sacrificing some of the bakery to put in some half assed excuse for a butchery. So now the Bakery thinks it can service both sets of customers at the same time, but then wonders why so few customers purchase meat or bread from him. MMORPGs have changed to adapt and continue to attract the action gamer. In doing so, have left behind some what made them MMORPGs and now they are poor games from whatever angle you look at them from. They can't keep action gamers for long and they certainly don't do well to keep the players looking for a good old fashioned long term game anymore.This new generation of MMORPGs are just getting worse and worse. And what are the devs doing about it? Making combat more exciting. Yeah, OK, But no matter how exciting it gets, sooner than later it gets un-exciting. And based on recent interviews, I don't think they are getting the hint.
Modern MMOs thrive off of the grind because it feeds dopamine to the players brains. It is what keeps them playing. Getting those shiny pixels is what makes an MMO an MMO.
What I think you are looking for is something much more. You are looking for a virtual world. SWG and Ultima Online were almost there. You want a world you can join your friends in and set off on an adventure. You aren't concerned with killing 10 rats or moving quest hub to quest hub. You don't want to enter an instanced solo adventure. You want an open-world that can be affected by every player. You want impacting politics and meaningful quests. You want to craft useful items for your friends. You want to build or destroy the world you live in. You want to architect your character to your play style, not some hodgepodge of skills a developer might throw together.
This game does not exist and might never. Everquest Next looks like it is trying this out, and we will have to see how it goes.
BTW , the OP said about get rid of "Traditional MMO Grind" but what kind of MMOs we try to get rid of grind ?
MMORPGs ?
PvP centric games, imho, would be better without any levels.
It would also be possible to replace level or skill based toon grind, with gear grind, which is what happens at 'end game' anyway. May as well start there at the begining.