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MMOs should skip the leveling and start at end game

plasticfaceplasticface Member Posts: 15
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

 

I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

 

So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

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Comments

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

    That's assuming that is the content everyone wants and enjoys. The rest of your post is based on a faulty premise.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • spizzspizz Member UncommonPosts: 1,971
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

    What about playing an FPS game or instant pvp games i.e. similar like Panzar.

    There are so many multiplayer games out there where you dont need to do level up your character.

     

    If someone like to do pvp and does not like leveling, I would not recommand him an mmorpg but instead alternative game types.

  • holyneoholyneo Member UncommonPosts: 154
    No, have you tried raiding in WoW that had a instant level 90?  They sucked...because they didn't put the time into the class to master it.
  • CzelawCzelaw Member UncommonPosts: 173
    MMO,s are not for you. you proly should just stick to kiddie games like CoD or BF4 ....mmo's are just to much work I guess. Ive yet to understand such mind sets I guess it's the insta I want it now attitude of today no one wants to earn anything any more.

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    Originally posted by plasticface
    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end? I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content. So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

    Well considering that most people don't get to end game, and raiding is considered IMO by most to be the most horrible part of the game it really doesn't make any sense to make the whole game the part that the fewest people enjoy now does it.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    That's pretty much what they do, at least immediately after a quick tutorial to introduce you to the game.  They put the endgame stuff that nearly everyone hates all the way at the very end.

  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,794
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

     

    If so-called "end game content" was actually FUN then maybe the above might apply. Unfortunately, those  "dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems, and open world pvp" things at this so-called end game aren't really that much fun. Why? Because they are pretty much the same old take on what someone else has already done. And, none of them (including Wildstar or TESO) are really much fun once you have run through them the third plus time through. It becomes rinse and repeat...rinse and repeat until your eyes just roll back in your head. 

     

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    The end-game concept in MMO's is the enemy, not the leveling process, imho.
  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,526

    I have to say I totally disagree with just about everything the OP said.  I am one who really enjoys leveling.  I hate gear treadmills, which is what typical ending is, which is leveling to.  The word endgame should never have been created in MMO's.  There is not suppose to be and end to an MMO. 

    Once I reach that magical number and no longer receive xp I start to lose interest.  Many games that have went on to add xp back into the equation have re-peaked my interest.  Look at what Rift did, they added a new leveling system after their endgame because they felt it was what many people wanted.  And it is great.  

    MMO's are suppose to be about a journey shared with friends.  There are many different ways this can be accomplished, but I tend to enjoy leveling up and seeing the rewards I have earned.  I like feeling like my character has increased because he has killed so many creatures or finished some epic quest.

    I would love to see a game that had no level cap, this could be something as simple as just adding one stat point to any stat one at a time.  Make it so such a small thing that it take many levels to make it substantial increase to one stat.   Sure some guy that has no life might become a god after millions of hours, but if that is what makes them happy let them do it. 

    I know this couldn't be done in a PVP setting, but not really talking about that at all right now.  But since I know someone will chime in on that as a problem, here is the answer.  If people wanted PVP in that game with no level cap make them all level 1 stats when engaged in PVP.  Make it the same across the board no advanced skills, just weapon and knowing how to play.

  • GadarethGadareth Member UncommonPosts: 310

    To be honest it would make more sense to return to the old format of the leveling curve being designed to take a long time. Do away with the END GAME concept altogether. The so called END GAME should just be a placeholder in place to keep people entertained until more content is made available.

    If you want instant gratification and no actual mmorpg mechanics ======> FPS is that way.

    What the MMORPG genre needs is less focus on the END GAME and more focus on the game itself.

     

  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide Member RarePosts: 1,015
    Originally posted by Ghavrigg
    The end-game concept in MMO's is the enemy, not the leveling process, imho.

    i agree.. while leveling you build up your character and it's usually the most fun part of mmo's.. once i hit cap it's more like" now what?"

    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

     And what do you think that has got to do with a mmoRPG?  I think Call of Duty would be brilliant if you had to quest through a whole virtual world with in depth questing and lore, but that make no more sense.  You want Genre A to be Genre B.    A game that is pure dungeon play - thats cool, but it is a different genre, neverwinter nights style etc.  and btw you DO NOT speak for everyone. 

    Quest are about lore and connection to the virtual world - you come from the generation that skips story and calls it 'text' and thinks its about the gold.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • aattssaattss Member Posts: 40
    Perhaps you could try to play MOBAs? After all, some people like grinding.
  • YohanuYohanu Member UncommonPosts: 215
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

     And what do you think that has got to do with a mmoRPG?  I think Call of Duty would be brilliant if you had to quest through a whole virtual world with in depth questing and lore, but that make no more sense.  You want Genre A to be Genre B.    A game that is pure dungeon play - thats cool, but it is a different genre, neverwinter nights style etc.  and btw you DO NOT speak for everyone. 

    Quest are about lore and connection to the virtual world - you come from the generation that skips story and calls it 'text' and thinks its about the gold.

    Last time i checked, MMORPG didn't mean WoW-clone. I find quests to be awful in the context of an MMO, design systems that allow players to create the story.

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
     I like  leveling , if you want instant end game there are plenty of FPS for that , in every setting you could want with character progression , so why push what you want on a genre that wasnt designed for that playstyle... Go play Modern Warfare , Battlefield etc...
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,438
    Originally posted by Gadareth

    To be honest it would make more sense to return to the old format of the leveling curve being designed to take a long time. Do away with the END GAME concept altogether. The so called END GAME should just be a placeholder in place to keep people entertained until more content is made available.

    If you want instant gratification and no actual mmorpg mechanics ======> FPS is that way.

    What the MMORPG genre needs is less focus on the END GAME and more focus on the game itself.

     

    Agreed.

    What's the point to level up 1-cap in few days, and then run same instances over and over again for next several months while waiting new content?

     

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    your right, WOW used to be a mmoRPG, but now its action based.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • AvanahAvanah Member RarePosts: 1,627
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

    Welcome to the Forums...

    Also...Maybe we should let kids skip school and go right into the working adult world. That is what your post is suggesting.

    "My Fantasy is having two men at once...

    One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

    ---------------------------

    "A good man can make you feel sexy,

    strong and able to take on the whole world...

    oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."





  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,526
    Originally posted by Ivylena
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

     

    I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.

     

    So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems,  and open world pvp.

    The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.

    MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them. 

    Welcome to the Forums...

    Also...Maybe we should let kids skip school and go right into the working adult world. That is what your post is suggesting.

    LOL, I love this.  Wonderful analogy.  And I totally agree!

  • aattssaattss Member Posts: 40
    I think that leveling and grinding aren't necessarely mutually inclusive. Ideally, one could make a game in which not grinding is varied and engaging and as rewarding (or even moreso) as grinding itself.
  • GadarethGadareth Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Atcually been thinking about this what we need is a new Genre descriptor :-

    MMORPG : The classic mmo with role playing elements questing steep leveling cure the game is about the journey

    FPS : state of the art bang bang

    MMO-E-Sport : Kill or be killed gotta beat em all everyone equal no leveling just jump in and you have it all. Getting to the end and being ranked the highest is all that matters.

    In this case could we make them their own forum to stop them polluting our mmorpg pool ?

     

     

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    OP if we take your arguements to the extreme every single game would offer a menu at the start that offers every form of gameplay - in fact lets just have 1 game, no wait, lets just have a menu that is an addon to you operating systen.   boot up windows, click on game tile, select battleground - go.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • aattssaattss Member Posts: 40
    Originally posted by Gadareth

    Atcually been thinking about this what we need is a new Genre descriptor :-

    MMORPG : The classic mmo with role playing elements questing steep leveling cure the game is about the journey

    FPS : state of the art bang bang

    MMO-E-Sport : Kill or be killed gotta beat em all everyone equal no leveling just jump in and you have it all. Getting to the end and being ranked the highest is all that matters.

    In this case could we make them their own forum to stop them polluting our mmorpg pool ?

     

     

    Don't forget Sandbox MMOs (once we actually find a descriptor for those)

  • NovusodNovusod Member UncommonPosts: 912
    Originally posted by holyneo
    No, have you tried raiding in WoW that had a instant level 90?  They sucked...because they didn't put the time into the class to master it.

    You act like leveling up teaches people how to play their class. Reality check It doesn't. All those fetch quests, and kill 10 XYZ critters doesn't teach players the critical rolls of their class. Even the story quests with puzzles don't teach people how to play. New players don't really learn anything until they get level capped and start participating in party play and raids.

     

    Leveling for the most part is pointless other than as a time sink.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by aattss
    I think that leveling and grinding aren't necessarely mutually inclusive. Ideally, one could make a game in which not grinding is varied and engaging and as rewarding (or even moreso) as grinding itself.

    Thats exactly what has already happened in mmorgs over the last 10 years. 'OMG' i have to grind 10 rats' for this quest - yup even 10 is a grind now, you can just hand in 2 if you get tired and want to rush to the next quests.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

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