Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?
***snip for length***
Personally I agree.
I'd like to see MMOs do away with levels, or adopt a progression system more similar to GW1. A very brief lvl up period, which constitutes the tutorial. Instead of having the game focused around it.
However, I know that most players wouldn't agree. The majority of us, whether we want to admit it or not, are stuck in our ways. We are used to, and hooked on the current skinner-box status quo. This is based off of levels, and RNG. Baiting people into chasing more and more rewards. It simulates the feeling of fun, and people love it for that. As a result, it's going to be a while before we see a meaningful departure from that type of design. It's just too engrained in human nature.
One can still hope, though, I suppose.
We need better AI really before we can work it this way. Low level cap is fine, but then you have to find a way to make the content challenging when new stuff comes out. Can't just add levels because well... that would be basing the game around levels, and throw everything prior for a loop.
But if we had sophisticated ai where fighting a group of five enemies is akin to a coordinated team then we could have content get harder and harder whilst remaining the same level. But then at that point it will be a "level" system based on competency levels instead of statistical levels.
Originally posted by Czelaw MMO,s are not for you. you proly should just stick to kiddie games like CoD or BF4 ....mmo's are just to much work I guess. Ive yet to understand such mind sets I guess it's the insta I want it now attitude of today no one wants to earn anything any more.
LOL What are you earning? Pointless +1 to a level. What exactly is not kiddie bout leveling. A child can do. A bot can do it.
I put 15+ years into UO, Played WOW to multiple lvl 90s since WOTLK, played Gw2 and Gw1 ot max level and other games like Diablo 3 and POE.
I can do it but WHY?
Oh no people want instant rewards and gratification....
Uhhh no.
Not asking for end game LOOT AND REWARDS.
ASKING FOR INSTANT FUN WHICH IS WHAT WE PAY FOR. NOT MINDLESS GRIND FOR LEVELS FOR WEEKS OR DAYS WHICH IS THE SAME CRAP SINCE EQ1. So take your "kiddie" argument out of here.
Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?
I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.
Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys.
The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.
So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems, and open world pvp.
The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.
MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them.
I have to admit that i didnt read the replies, but there is already a game that is planned to do that, and it's Camelot Unchained.
Endgame in the form of raids is the bane of mmorpgs. It's reserved for people who lack creativity, focus and mental fortitude to actually thrive in the game world rather than occupy space until the next spoonful is ready. The epitome of spoon fed mmorpg players. No worries though, you too can break the cycle. I did.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?
No, end game is boring - it's the same old grind (dungeon or pvp) to get shinny new gear, then there's an update that gives you 'better' shinny new gear then an expansion and your shinny old gear is worthless and you start again.
It should be about the journey and not about levels. It should be about progressing and developing your character and not about shinny new gear.
What exactly is progressing? its a just new number on your screen, a fresh reset on the exp bar and if you are lucky +1 to a talent nowadays since stats are AUTO.
Then the mobs.....are THE SAME MOBS just more HP. No learning curve or real difficulty increase. Nothing is progressing or developing in these games. Thats mostly for single player RPG with story people care about.
I played the Journey, the same journey over and over and over for years now in countless MMO and its tiring. So until an entire new immersive questing/leveling experience is developed its just going to be the same crap.
For now. With MMOs in their current state End game and gear progress is all that matters. And everything I posted in the first topic...raids, group dungeons, pvp, crafting, open world pvp etc is the fun stuff.
I'd like to see MMOs do away with levels, or adopt a progression system more similar to GW1. A very brief lvl up period, which constitutes the tutorial. Instead of having the game focused around it.
However, I know that most players wouldn't agree. The majority of us, whether we want to admit it or not, are stuck in our ways. We are used to, and hooked on the current skinner-box status quo. This is based off of levels, and RNG. Baiting people into chasing more and more rewards. It simulates the feeling of fun, and people love it for that. As a result, it's going to be a while before we see a meaningful departure from that type of design. It's just too engrained in human nature.
One can still hope, though, I suppose.
So much THIS.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 Endgame in the form of raids is the bane of mmorpgs. It's reserved for people who lack creativity, focus and mental fortitude to actually thrive in the game world rather than occupy space until the next spoonful is ready. The epitome of spoon fed mmorpg players. No worries though, you too can break the cycle. I did.
Its whats popular now. People like the grouping content. I would honestly prefer a good sandbox world but theme park mmos are all the rage nowadays.
Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?
I was playing wildstar beta and all I kept thinking was how I am sick of leveling in these games and want to just raid and pvp ASAP.
Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys.
The only thing Leveling is good for now is to make people waste their free 30 days of game time so they have to sub after leveling to enjoy the end game content.
So why not start games with NO leveling. Stop wasting time developing all this crap and start the mmo with even more dungeons, raids, crafting, pvp systems, and open world pvp.
The only reason I can see anyone being against this is people need to learn their class....but really most MMOs are so easy a kid can play them. What is there to learn now, and why not let guilds and groups figure out who is worthwhile. Or just add a brief starter noob zone that last maybe 20 minutes and covers most skills and basic things like how to heal depending on what class they are.
MMOs can also keep quest for rewards and gold. Leveling can be gone but quest can stay for people that like them.
The ignorance in this post astounds me. First and foremost, the genre was founded by making RPG's inclusive to a multitude of players to allow gathering, interacting, and sharing of experiences within a fantasy world (virtual or not, as tabletop RPG's -still existent- are the originals).
Do you know what an RPG is? Role Playing Game. What's that mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game It's basically a game where you play a character in a fictional setting. But, the setting is that of the character's adventures, their "story", their way of advancing and getting stronger based on their doings.
So, an MMO's quests are essentially the road of 'deeds' that a character does to gain strength. The strength of a character is measured in their level (which is seen as a level of power); in most games your base attributes increase with the level increase. Increased strength is nothing without wisdom, which is to say that as a player character does more they gain more skills to their ability (Skill unlocks).
This is also why some MMORPG's have opted for a sort of episodic 'main story line' that explains your character's progression within the game and what they're doing. GW2 has Personal Story (as well as the now ended Living Story); SW:TOR has it's ...thing; TESO has the whole Daedra Prince story that ever ES game has; Wildstar has it's Drusera instances.
Crazy example #1) Mass Effect 1 through 3 was NOT about just stopping the reapers from destroying Earth. The final battle was NOT the only inclusion in the game's box and isn't all there is. A customer does not have instant access to the final battle; they will have to play through all the other content in order to get to that "end-game" moment.
Crazy example #2) Lord of the Rings 1 through 3 wasn't just Frodo throwing the Ring into Mount Doom. Do you realize how short of a book series -let alone movie series- would be if they just wrote in Frodo getting the Ring from Bilbo and traveling to Mordor by giant eagle to just casually toss it into the volcano below? It wouldn't have sold anything....it wouldn't have been a good book series, movie series, game series, or cultural hit!
My point: MMORPG's are NOT your go-to, instant all-about-raids, nothing but instant PvP, end-all lazy gamer game. They are not for the instant gratification that you tend to portray. STOP...absolutely, 110% STOP trying to ruin what is otherwise "geek culture" with your instant gratification nonsense of wanting to turn an MMORPG into something different than what it is. Just...STOP! Go play any number of many other genres that give you their 'end-game' content instantly for you to enjoy (MOBAs and FPS games?)
ASKING FOR INSTANT FUN WHICH IS WHAT WE PAY FOR. NOT MINDLESS GRIND FOR LEVELS FOR WEEKS OR DAYS WHICH IS THE SAME CRAP SINCE EQ1. So take your "kiddie" argument out of here.
Ok great, what is "instant fun"?
Because, with the exception of pvp, there will always be a finite amount of pve available. you will either have to repeat dungeons or killing bosses or repeat randomly generated dungeons where you will eventually and quickly recognize all the bits and pieces that make up that dungeon and then you will come back and say "grind".
Unless of course what you are looking for is a strictly pvp mmo?
but how many times can you "flip a keep" before it becomes "meh". One of the reasons I felt Lineage 2 "did it right".
Sieges became "an event" not something that was 24/7.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I wonder if OP would actually enjoy what he is asking for. A game only about raiding for gear that gives you no real benefit. Or only PvP using such simplistic combat gameplay from MMORPGs.
Not for me or for everyone but then again MOBAs became its own genre.
OP's suggestion makes sense in a game like WildStar imo. If anyone is playing that game for the leveling experience then may god help them. Think of all the additional raid content carbine could have added if they didn't waste time on filler quests. I feel like some MMO's add all the leveling fluff because they feel it necessary. Its just what we do in MMOs and so its done. In some cases painfully bad. But hey there are levels so have at it! I'm all for the journey but in some games it would be nice to bypass the forced agonizing levels.
Do you know what an RPG is? Role Playing Game. What's that mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game It's basically a game where you play a character in a fictional setting. But, the setting is that of the character's adventures, their "story", their way of advancing and getting stronger based on their doings.
So you're defining an rpg as a game with rp, and it's a complete coincidince that most rpgs (i.e. Final Fantasy, Skyrim, every rpg ever) has a leveling system, while games that are not rpgs do not have as much of a focus on leveling?
Do you think people play rpgs, as opposed to rts or fps games, for the story? Do you think people play World of Warcraft for the story?
Do you know what an RPG is? Role Playing Game. What's that mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game It's basically a game where you play a character in a fictional setting. But, the setting is that of the character's adventures, their "story", their way of advancing and getting stronger based on their doings.
So you're defining an rpg as a game with rp, and it's a complete coincidince that most rpgs (i.e. Final Fantasy, Skyrim, every rpg ever) has a leveling system, while games that are not rpgs do not have as much of a focus on leveling?
Do you think people play rpgs, as opposed to rts or fps games, for the story? Do you think people play World of Warcraft for the story?
at least to me an mmo that offers end game since the beginning without character progression is useless and made for even shorter term play. They just need to change the leveling experience and make it enjoyable instead of boring grind nonsense.
Standard MMO Leveling is archaic. What is it's purpose anyway? To stifle progress and accessibility to content? There isn't anything skillful about it. This is why i prefer a skill-leveling process, instead of just a vanity number next to a name, that automatically allocates stats.
I agree with some of the posters that pointed out that maybe this genre isn't meant for him. If you can't find fun in the progression up to maximum level and think what defines an MMO is entirely by its end-game (not saying it's not important, it IS important for many) should probably consider playing something like single player RPG's where it's more engaging from the beginning. OP doesn't even sound like he gets along with players that well with that particular attitude and lack of patience.
The game is meant to be enjoyed and if all your playing MMORPG's for is to "make progression" entirely for yourself rather than play with others or share an environment with others then you're going to be wholly dissatisfied with the genre overall where you'll find yourself chasing these abritrary carrot-on-sticks that were really laid out as a cheap premise to bring people together in the first place. You might want to consider other genres, with all due respect of course (not trying to be mean or anything). I really think many people lose sight of this while playing and get disappointed with MMO's after a while due to this.
Do you know what an RPG is? Role Playing Game. What's that mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game It's basically a game where you play a character in a fictional setting. But, the setting is that of the character's adventures, their "story", their way of advancing and getting stronger based on their doings.
So you're defining an rpg as a game with rp, and it's a complete coincidince that most rpgs (i.e. Final Fantasy, Skyrim, every rpg ever) has a leveling system, while games that are not rpgs do not have as much of a focus on leveling?
Do you think people play rpgs, as opposed to rts or fps games, for the story? Do you think people play World of Warcraft for the story?
1. WoW is not an RPG and hasn't been for many years.
2. Many people still play WoW for it's story and rich lore and characters.
I was mainly trying to point out that in his post, he was justifying leveling by putting it in the context of roleplaying and the storyline. Also, I haven't really seen that many threads identifying the role of story and lore in the quality of an MMORPG, as the community as a whole seem to identify the core of mmos as things such as gameplay mechanics. In other words story and lore are peripheral to the success or failure of games such as WoW.
Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?
No, end game is boring - it's the same old grind (dungeon or pvp) to get shinny new gear, then there's an update that gives you 'better' shinny new gear then an expansion and your shinny old gear is worthless and you start again.
It should be about the journey and not about levels. It should be about progressing and developing your character and not about shinny new gear.
What exactly is progressing? its a just new number on your screen, a fresh reset on the exp bar and if you are lucky +1 to a talent nowadays since stats are AUTO.
Then the mobs.....are THE SAME MOBS just more HP. No learning curve or real difficulty increase. Nothing is progressing or developing in these games. Thats mostly for single player RPG with story people care about.
I played the Journey, the same journey over and over and over for years now in countless MMO and its tiring. So until an entire new immersive questing/leveling experience is developed its just going to be the same crap.
For now. With MMOs in their current state End game and gear progress is all that matters. And everything I posted in the first topic...raids, group dungeons, pvp, crafting, open world pvp etc is the fun stuff.
You're generalizing mmos quite heavily here. Sure this fits the mold for many of them, but some try to break that mold with decent stories you progress through, starting fresh, weak, newly recruited and rising to a champion status. It makes sense story wise to level and progress that way.
You can have progression if it's done well that ties in a leveling system. If you had all the spells, talents, and weapon options without some kind of leveling process it'd be akin to playing a single player game and cheating to max level and skip the whole rpg aspect of building your character. What's worse is instead of leveling up and getting "achievements" that way you would simply replace that grind with proficiency grind for weapons to get better ones, or money grind to buy them.
Some mmo devs are lazy though I will give you that. But not all of them fit this mold you're presenting.
I'm dismayed at all the indignation aimed at the OP for essentially stating that s/he would rather get right to the parts of the game most enjoyed. Especially when the counter-argument is utterly hypocritical. "No, let's get rid of end-game altogether because I enjoy leveling and progression instead." Both are preferences and, IMO, both have a place. Vindictus and Dragon Nest are popular, valid branches off the MMO tree-- is the suggestion then that those players who just want to hop into group dungeons all day should frag off and get back to FPS games? Where's this mythical raiding-only title that the OP can go play?
How is dismissing this plainly-stated desire for a change in the current trends any different from the hardcore, old-school elite clamoring for forced-grouping, OWPvP, and sandbox play? Why is that somehow more palatable than asking for a game that centers on raiding-- one of the defining aspects of MMORPGs since nearly the beginning?
Personally, I do enjoy the leveling experience and I've never had the time or opportunity to do more than endgame dungeons. I'd love to try my hand at raiding eventually. Maybe if there were successful games that tried the outlandish and implemented what the OP suggested, there would also be room for more games that pushed the boundaries of progression, giving others the extended leveling experience they desired as well.
But there is a solution for that - exponential diminishing return!
So a Level 30 Player is not 1000% weaker than a Level 100 Player but 10%...and you can have unlimited levels bcs you do not need an "Endlevel" as leveling does not break your game!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
But there is a solution for that - exponential diminishing return!
So a Level 30 Player is not 1000% weaker than a Level 100 Player but 10%...and you can have unlimited levels bcs you do not need an "Endlevel" as leveling does not break your game!
Nice , but 30 vs 100 = 10% are bit too much.
How about all contents (gears , skill , quests , dungeon , ect... ) are unlocked after 30 level of tutorial
Though you have to play to earn gears , unlock or make gold to learn skill.
then after level 30 , each level gain your few stats point to power up your character.
Level 999 are cap and take years to search , but to finish all the story and lore you only need to be level 30
Comments
We need better AI really before we can work it this way. Low level cap is fine, but then you have to find a way to make the content challenging when new stuff comes out. Can't just add levels because well... that would be basing the game around levels, and throw everything prior for a loop.
But if we had sophisticated ai where fighting a group of five enemies is akin to a coordinated team then we could have content get harder and harder whilst remaining the same level. But then at that point it will be a "level" system based on competency levels instead of statistical levels.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
LOL What are you earning? Pointless +1 to a level. What exactly is not kiddie bout leveling. A child can do. A bot can do it.
I put 15+ years into UO, Played WOW to multiple lvl 90s since WOTLK, played Gw2 and Gw1 ot max level and other games like Diablo 3 and POE.
I can do it but WHY?
Oh no people want instant rewards and gratification....
Uhhh no.
Not asking for end game LOOT AND REWARDS.
ASKING FOR INSTANT FUN WHICH IS WHAT WE PAY FOR. NOT MINDLESS GRIND FOR LEVELS FOR WEEKS OR DAYS WHICH IS THE SAME CRAP SINCE EQ1. So take your "kiddie" argument out of here.
I have to admit that i didnt read the replies, but there is already a game that is planned to do that, and it's Camelot Unchained.
The tip for
The win is
cooperation.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
What exactly is progressing? its a just new number on your screen, a fresh reset on the exp bar and if you are lucky +1 to a talent nowadays since stats are AUTO.
Then the mobs.....are THE SAME MOBS just more HP. No learning curve or real difficulty increase. Nothing is progressing or developing in these games. Thats mostly for single player RPG with story people care about.
I played the Journey, the same journey over and over and over for years now in countless MMO and its tiring. So until an entire new immersive questing/leveling experience is developed its just going to be the same crap.
For now. With MMOs in their current state End game and gear progress is all that matters. And everything I posted in the first topic...raids, group dungeons, pvp, crafting, open world pvp etc is the fun stuff.
Go talk to X !
Go back to Y !
Press F on X amount of Y !
How could you NOT enjoy leveling in MMORPGs ?
I do not mind a leveling process, but when playing progress quest is more entertaining than the leveling process ... what is the point?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
So much THIS.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Its whats popular now. People like the grouping content. I would honestly prefer a good sandbox world but theme park mmos are all the rage nowadays.
The ignorance in this post astounds me. First and foremost, the genre was founded by making RPG's inclusive to a multitude of players to allow gathering, interacting, and sharing of experiences within a fantasy world (virtual or not, as tabletop RPG's -still existent- are the originals).
Do you know what an RPG is? Role Playing Game. What's that mean? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game It's basically a game where you play a character in a fictional setting. But, the setting is that of the character's adventures, their "story", their way of advancing and getting stronger based on their doings.
So, an MMO's quests are essentially the road of 'deeds' that a character does to gain strength. The strength of a character is measured in their level (which is seen as a level of power); in most games your base attributes increase with the level increase. Increased strength is nothing without wisdom, which is to say that as a player character does more they gain more skills to their ability (Skill unlocks).
This is also why some MMORPG's have opted for a sort of episodic 'main story line' that explains your character's progression within the game and what they're doing. GW2 has Personal Story (as well as the now ended Living Story); SW:TOR has it's ...thing; TESO has the whole Daedra Prince story that ever ES game has; Wildstar has it's Drusera instances.
Crazy example #1) Mass Effect 1 through 3 was NOT about just stopping the reapers from destroying Earth. The final battle was NOT the only inclusion in the game's box and isn't all there is. A customer does not have instant access to the final battle; they will have to play through all the other content in order to get to that "end-game" moment.
Crazy example #2) Lord of the Rings 1 through 3 wasn't just Frodo throwing the Ring into Mount Doom. Do you realize how short of a book series -let alone movie series- would be if they just wrote in Frodo getting the Ring from Bilbo and traveling to Mordor by giant eagle to just casually toss it into the volcano below? It wouldn't have sold anything....it wouldn't have been a good book series, movie series, game series, or cultural hit!
My point: MMORPG's are NOT your go-to, instant all-about-raids, nothing but instant PvP, end-all lazy gamer game. They are not for the instant gratification that you tend to portray. STOP...absolutely, 110% STOP trying to ruin what is otherwise "geek culture" with your instant gratification nonsense of wanting to turn an MMORPG into something different than what it is. Just...STOP! Go play any number of many other genres that give you their 'end-game' content instantly for you to enjoy (MOBAs and FPS games?)
Ok great, what is "instant fun"?
Because, with the exception of pvp, there will always be a finite amount of pve available. you will either have to repeat dungeons or killing bosses or repeat randomly generated dungeons where you will eventually and quickly recognize all the bits and pieces that make up that dungeon and then you will come back and say "grind".
Unless of course what you are looking for is a strictly pvp mmo?
but how many times can you "flip a keep" before it becomes "meh". One of the reasons I felt Lineage 2 "did it right".
Sieges became "an event" not something that was 24/7.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thread+posts is amusing+sad
I wonder if OP would actually enjoy what he is asking for. A game only about raiding for gear that gives you no real benefit. Or only PvP using such simplistic combat gameplay from MMORPGs.
Not for me or for everyone but then again MOBAs became its own genre.
So you're defining an rpg as a game with rp, and it's a complete coincidince that most rpgs (i.e. Final Fantasy, Skyrim, every rpg ever) has a leveling system, while games that are not rpgs do not have as much of a focus on leveling?
Do you think people play rpgs, as opposed to rts or fps games, for the story? Do you think people play World of Warcraft for the story?
An interesting 6 minute video which eventually talks about what defines a genre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_rvM6hubs8
1. WoW is not an RPG and hasn't been for many years.
2. Many people still play WoW for it's story and rich lore and characters.
I prefer few hours of develop (build / create) my character then start "end game" playing with contents from easy to hard.
I don't ready like to use "end game" term because it sound like the game ready end lol .
After leveling through many games , i don't ready like long "leveling" Journey anymore .
I still like to have "journey" in MMORPG , not for leveling but for the lore and treasures ...ect .
though i don't think i should add "pretty women" in the romance of adventurer lol .
Play DayZ Standalone
Sandbox MMORPG FPS no leveling.
I agree with some of the posters that pointed out that maybe this genre isn't meant for him. If you can't find fun in the progression up to maximum level and think what defines an MMO is entirely by its end-game (not saying it's not important, it IS important for many) should probably consider playing something like single player RPG's where it's more engaging from the beginning. OP doesn't even sound like he gets along with players that well with that particular attitude and lack of patience.
The game is meant to be enjoyed and if all your playing MMORPG's for is to "make progression" entirely for yourself rather than play with others or share an environment with others then you're going to be wholly dissatisfied with the genre overall where you'll find yourself chasing these abritrary carrot-on-sticks that were really laid out as a cheap premise to bring people together in the first place. You might want to consider other genres, with all due respect of course (not trying to be mean or anything). I really think many people lose sight of this while playing and get disappointed with MMO's after a while due to this.
I was mainly trying to point out that in his post, he was justifying leveling by putting it in the context of roleplaying and the storyline. Also, I haven't really seen that many threads identifying the role of story and lore in the quality of an MMORPG, as the community as a whole seem to identify the core of mmos as things such as gameplay mechanics. In other words story and lore are peripheral to the success or failure of games such as WoW.
You're generalizing mmos quite heavily here. Sure this fits the mold for many of them, but some try to break that mold with decent stories you progress through, starting fresh, weak, newly recruited and rising to a champion status. It makes sense story wise to level and progress that way.
You can have progression if it's done well that ties in a leveling system. If you had all the spells, talents, and weapon options without some kind of leveling process it'd be akin to playing a single player game and cheating to max level and skip the whole rpg aspect of building your character. What's worse is instead of leveling up and getting "achievements" that way you would simply replace that grind with proficiency grind for weapons to get better ones, or money grind to buy them.
Some mmo devs are lazy though I will give you that. But not all of them fit this mold you're presenting.
I'm dismayed at all the indignation aimed at the OP for essentially stating that s/he would rather get right to the parts of the game most enjoyed. Especially when the counter-argument is utterly hypocritical. "No, let's get rid of end-game altogether because I enjoy leveling and progression instead." Both are preferences and, IMO, both have a place. Vindictus and Dragon Nest are popular, valid branches off the MMO tree-- is the suggestion then that those players who just want to hop into group dungeons all day should frag off and get back to FPS games? Where's this mythical raiding-only title that the OP can go play?
How is dismissing this plainly-stated desire for a change in the current trends any different from the hardcore, old-school elite clamoring for forced-grouping, OWPvP, and sandbox play? Why is that somehow more palatable than asking for a game that centers on raiding-- one of the defining aspects of MMORPGs since nearly the beginning?
Personally, I do enjoy the leveling experience and I've never had the time or opportunity to do more than endgame dungeons. I'd love to try my hand at raiding eventually. Maybe if there were successful games that tried the outlandish and implemented what the OP suggested, there would also be room for more games that pushed the boundaries of progression, giving others the extended leveling experience they desired as well.
To many people LEVELING IS THE GAME!
But there is a solution for that - exponential diminishing return!
So a Level 30 Player is not 1000% weaker than a Level 100 Player but 10%...and you can have unlimited levels bcs you do not need an "Endlevel" as leveling does not break your game!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Nice , but 30 vs 100 = 10% are bit too much.
How about all contents (gears , skill , quests , dungeon , ect... ) are unlocked after 30 level of tutorial
Though you have to play to earn gears , unlock or make gold to learn skill.
then after level 30 , each level gain your few stats point to power up your character.
Level 999 are cap and take years to search , but to finish all the story and lore you only need to be level 30