The MOB driven economy, please no more! Here is my alternitive...

Talinguard · January 2006

There are several parts to the foundation of a good game. I would put the economy near or at the top. Instead of simply asking, or bitching I will define some points that I think make a good economy and read the replies.....

Here is the real problem have have with most MMO's up until this point. Something I call the "Mob Driven Economy" (or MDE from here on). This is where players are forced (if they wish to be competitive) to kill NPC mobs in order to loot cash and items. The amount of the reward is usually loosely tied to risk and is modified by the players equipment, strategy and overall playing skill.
Lets take the ubiquitous Gremlin, think of him as a representation of the mob of choice from whatever games you play/have played in the past....
Now how many of us have killed this creature only to find him carrying some amount of coin and items. How many of us have asked ourselves why this creature has dropped the particular items that are dropped, far out of context of the type of mob and surrounding. Not to mention that if I were a Gremlin I probably would have used these items against my attacker.

The point here is that MMO's have often followed the time honored formula of......
Time spent farming mobs is proportionately rewarded with money and items (and in most cases experience).
This is of course modified by the utility/power of your equipment and how you, and perhaps your group, work within the confines of the system your playing in so that you get the most reward for the least amount of effort. The problem is, is that this formula hasent changed much since the days of The Legend of Zelda. You kill mobs and find items and money and use your money to buy items that will make obtaining more items and money easier, presumably by being able to hunt more difficult creatures that drop proportionally larger rewards.

Ok so I think I have established that I don't care for a MDE, and I hope most of you agree, so let me move on....

The economy is a HUGE opportunity to create more than just a community. After all a community is where a group of people with the same interests interact. What community lacks is interdependence. Lets move beyond community to an online society where players are compelled (notice I didn't say forced) to work together. This leaves room for all player types, monevolent, or benevolent or those that play non stop or seldomly.

So having said that, how do we accomplish this? Well, since my day job involves corporate data storage and not the creation of MMO's and how they work all I can do is spot, ideas that I fully expect to be picked apart.....But here goes...

First of all, how do we deal with money? In the real world there is (arguably) a finite amount of money, so essentially we all fight for a piece of the pie (I believe this is referred to as a zero sum economy). However the nature of a persistent world makes this type of economy very difficult to implement since money can be removed from most games, in theory, permanently. In the real world money put in a bank doesn't stay there its invested. How can we emulate this in the persistant game wold?

We need to create wealth and that wealth has to be based on a system that recycles itself. One idea I had was to make a matirial that must be primarly be"mined" and that material would be the foundation upon which all items in the game are made. There would presumably be many other components that are unique and an object could have many components to make, but all would contain this one matirial, lets call it "Dust". Dust would be the standard of currency. Now the twist is that Dust cannot be taken out of the game, i.e. banked in the traditional sense. Players would be forced to put there dust somewhere in the world, making it vulnerable to other players. One of my ideas is that players would deposit thier dust into a vault in guild houses. Either their own guild or someone else's guild. The amount of dust in a guilds vault would determine the overall strength of the guilds Fort/Keep. Since guilds want stong forts and players want safe money, then the mutual benefit would be that a player finds a safe place to keep his money, and the guild is able to make thier forts stronger. This would have the added benifit of having players help guilds they don't necessarily belong to to help protect their money (presumably one could not remove there money from a guild vault while its under sidge) ... There are other potential benifits, but in the interest of keeping the thread from becoming longer than the bible...I'll move on.

So how do we "recycle"?
There would be mines of Dust in the world. The number of mines would be dependent on active player population over a given time (probable a month). The formula would of course would have to be tweaked after use. The mines would belong to groups of players, probably guilds or an alliance of guilds. The mine cannot be removed thus the wealth it provides stays in the world this has the added benifit of creating player conflict. The rules around the taking of a mine from another group could be complex and based on a number of factors, players may be able to build there forts/keeps around the mines.....
I should mention that mines are not bottomless pits of Dust, they contain a finite amount (remember the number of mines is based on the number of active players over a given time span. This would mean that those who are able to get to the bottom of their mine would have to seek out another and use a portion of the spoils from the first mine to fortify it so they could harvest another.

Ok so now we know how the source of the "wealth" recycles but what happens once its made into an object?
Simple, the rate of decay is fairly high, if an item drops to 0 than it is broken, but repairs are made fairly easily. Presumably someone would choose to become a smith and would be able to repair using Dust.
Whenever an item decays the amount that it decays goes back into the world spread equally throughout all the existing mines. So if I had an item that used 100 dust to make, for every one percent that it decays 1% of the Dust would return equally to the world. Here is an example. If there hare 10,000 players in game in a day, those players items decay a total of 50,000 "Dust units" and there are 500 mines in the world then each mine would receive 50 units of replenishment per day (these are fictitious numbers to illustrate my point). Because the decay is dynamic, money sinks would not be needed and maybe ebaying would be a lot less profitable (or so expensive that only the most insane would buy.

So, lets think about how this effects the world.....In the past large guilds with uber players would farm mobs and start to outrun those smaller groups at an almost exponential pace. Now (I hope) that this system would allow some groups to move ahead, but the farther they get the harder it becomes.
Ok here is an in game scinerio.....
Guild one takes a mine and fortifies it. Of course they would use the Dust mined there plus any other objects from the world to create that fort. Presumably that fort would decay like everything else so the maintenance cost would be high, and would get higher based on the amount of protection it provides. Eventually the mine runs dry, but is replenished periodically (remember that everything in the world is decaying all the time, and that decay is spread back out across the world). Once the guild that owns the mine runs out of Dust a guild would have to spread out the remaining resource from this mine as it attempts to grow, or it would be forced to capture another mine or find other ways to obtain Dust. Remember that a second fort would cost a lot in Dust, perhaps a provision in the game says that each for takes a slightly larger percentage of dust than the one before.

Other ways of making Dust would be in the selling of surplus items, perhaps explorers could search the world to find small one time caches of Dust, certain intelligent mobs could defend certain places that contained small amounts of Dust. Thieves could steal it from other players, and politicians could control certain areas and players might be forced to pay in dust for certain services.

With a system like this the currency, "DUST" would stay in the world and could naturally be adapted to control inflation, prevent the need for money sinks and give an almost real value to the currency of the world.

So far what I have defined is a system that is highly feudal, where players are fighting other players, and imo that is what makes MMO's fun.

What I have defined here is a framework and is open to interpretation and improvement. If you disagree then so be it, I'm really interested in hearing from people who can see the benefit and either need more clarification or even better can expand on my ideas....

I know the attention span of most is short, so if you have actually read the entire post, your either really board or really interested
::::02::

Zeed006 · January 2006

nice stuff ::::28::

some ideas to add

There could be a "drought" season where the material become scarce in the world. During these droughts
there could be a chance of a super mine being discovered which is gaurded by some incredibly tough NPC's. Perhaps it would take days of many guilds attacking it to win the fort. Once the NPC's guarding the fort were destroyed, there would be a huge FFA melee for a stranglehold on the economy during the drought. Could also add wandering merchant who bring news of the new mine to local towns. And have them start a good story about the NPC's guarding the fort to add some soul to the game.

hadz · January 2006

Yep...I admit it sounds great...and it has the added benefit of making PvP almost meaningful (unlike most games)...

Unfortunately what you are describing has, to some extent, already been done (apart from the balancing aspects of materials degrading I think)...

The game is called EVE and, again unfortunately, it is as boring as watching paint dry...some may say even more so...(though a game like that certainly does allow the wanabee tin-pot-despot to feel that they are ruling over something meaningful and valuable)

PS. The long-standing definition of an RPG (based on the original PnP-style & follow-up console games), whether it be MMO or not, is killing NPC enemies to level up your hero. The game you are suggesting, and any other based on similar principles, is not really an RPG. It is more a "world-sim", and if you like "world-sim" type games then this will appeal to you. People who play for the old-school-RPG elements certainly won't find it meeting their needs. (But then others will...so I'm not saying your idea is bad )

Gooney · January 2006

I like this topic, but your solution does not solve the problem of the MDE. What it does is centralize the wealth into the hands of a few.

Who does the mining? Why would they then give that "Dust" to the guild? What would the solo player do? Once the guild does have the "dust" to bank it what is the incentive for them to distribute it back to the depositers who can then spend it. Basically you havent really addressed the biggest problme of the MDE, you have come up with a neat system that ultimately will pose far more problems than it solves.

Biggest problem with an MDE is inflation. This problem is only acute for the new player or the player unconcerned with gathering wealth.

Inflation is inevietable in an MDE, namely because there is a limitless amount of wealth dropping MOBs.

A resource based economy has exactly the same problem as an MDE economy, over time the large buildup of "dust" will lead to uncontrollable inflation.

Inflation can only be solved if an artificial macro-economy is implemented whereby in-game nations, planets, lands, kingdoms, etc, traded between themselves, they could then issue currency based on the value of this trade. How do you do this??? I dunno, Ive got some ideas though. What this would do ultimately is allow an algorithm which could keep the economy stable by controlling currency flow. It would allow a simplified stockmarket, which in turn would allow for player created industries, and most importantly employment tied directly to production.

The goal is to make sure that players have enough wealth to purchase the items they need, without simply giving it to them.

That kind of plan could be abstracted to a ton of different levels. The best for a game would assume that every player is his own company.

Player gathers skins sells to tailor. Tailor creates goods for sale. Tailor takes profit and either spends on own items or invests in something. Tax gives nation income and buying power.

-Taxes provide one credit sink

-Cost of production has to be more in line with profit margin. A large initial investment for location, tools, etc be necessary for start, a loan from central bank provides this money. (This is the seed for the economy and where initial currency comes in).

You could automate almost every "Bank" aspect of this so most would be unseen by the player.

Theres a very fine line between economic realism and fun...

-Gooney

Talinguard · January 2006

Originally posted by Gooney
I like this topic, but your solution does not solve the problem of the MDE. What it does is centralize the wealth into the hands of a few.
Who does the mining? Why would they then give that "Dust" to the guild? What would the solo player do? Once the guild does have the "dust" to bank it what is the incentive for them to distribute it back to the depositers who can then spend it. Basically you havent really addressed the biggest problme of the MDE, you have come up with a neat system that ultimately will pose far more problems than it solves.
Biggest problem with an MDE is inflation. This problem is only acute for the new player or the player unconcerned with gathering wealth.
Inflation is inevietable in an MDE, namely because there is a limitless amount of wealth dropping MOBs.
A resource based economy has exactly the same problem as an MDE economy, over time the large buildup of "dust" will lead to uncontrollable inflation.
Inflation can only be solved if an artificial macro-economy is implemented whereby in-game nations, planets, lands, kingdoms, etc, traded between themselves, they could then issue currency based on the value of this trade. How do you do this??? I dunno, Ive got some ideas though. What this would do ultimately is allow an algorithm which could keep the economy stable by controlling currency flow. It would allow a simplified stockmarket, which in turn would allow for player created industries, and most importantly employment tied directly to production.
The goal is to make sure that players have enough wealth to purchase the items they need, without simply giving it to them.
That kind of plan could be abstracted to a ton of different levels. The best for a game would assume that every player is his own company.
Player gathers skins sells to tailor. Tailor creates goods for sale. Tailor takes profit and either spends on own items or invests in something. Tax gives nation income and buying power.
-Taxes provide one credit sink
-Cost of production has to be more in line with profit margin. A large initial investment for location, tools, etc be necessary for start, a loan from central bank provides this money. (This is the seed for the economy and where initial currency comes in).
You could automate almost every "Bank" aspect of this so most would be unseen by the player.
Theres a very fine line between economic realism and fun...
-Gooney

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read a pretty long post.....

First, I had herd that Eve had a similar system (I wrote this before I knew that), but correct me if I'm wrong. The resources in eve don't recycle back into the world until an obgect build is destroyed, correct? This is an imporvment if only slightly.

RPG, vs world sim, hmmm....Good point. I tend to think of it as the difference between playing Lazer tag and Paint Ball. In one you pretend to be shot, in the other you do get shot. I think the consequense in PB brings the excitment to the game. So if you want to look at it that way, I definitly perfer a world sim.

To the last responder I would say that because "DUST" cannot be "banked" in the traditional sense than it it always decaying. Now the rate of decay can depend on several factors and those factors can be modified to help those who are not power gammers, and will depend on where and what state "Dust" is stored in. But decay is like a forced money sink. In DAoC I can hord money and never spend it if I so choose. Assuming I have the items I need to get money, which, incedently, I do. I have a 50th level Ranger who has everything he could want and is capable of beating any other player in game IF the situation is right. Now because of that the ONLY thing I have to do is repair armor and weapons. I can make enough money in game to do that in 1 hour to fix my armor for the next 3 months.

As far as who does the mining I would say anyone could do the mining that so choose. SWG proved that unusual classes are viable. That is people are willing to create characters with special non-combat specialazations. So if you created a class with mining as a specailty, than players could choose that as a class (or sub class).

Lastly to the causual gamer of wich I would consider myself one (2-4 hours a day 3-5 days a week at best) I can see many opportunities in a game that has a model like this. I could be a thief and try to steal what I need, I could be a miner and take a piece of what someone hiers me to mine, I could be a mercinary and help protect somone elses fort, or I could help other guilds attack.

I admit, that its not as "easy as that" but that is the nature of evolution of the state of MMO's. Its time to bring another state of depth now that technology has made these possibilities available.

thoreau · January 2006

Originally posted by Talinguard
First of all, how do we deal with money? In the real world there is (arguably) a finite amount of money, so essentially we all fight for a piece of the pie (I believe this is referred to as a zero sum economy).

the real world is not a zero sum economy. the economy (or pie) can and does grow. for example, China's economy has grown about 10% for the last 10 years. the pie can get bigger.

Talinguard · January 2006

Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by TalinguardFirst of all, how do we deal with money? In the real world there is (arguably) a finite amount of money, so essentially we all fight for a piece of the pie (I believe this is referred to as a zero sum economy).

the real world is not a zero sum economy. the economy (or pie) can and does grow. for example, China's economy has grown about 10% for the last 10 years. the pie can get bigger.

First just because China grows by 20% doent mean that other countries have not had thier economies turn down as a result.

That said....

While your right in a way....

Think about it this way.....

If im in game and I have 20% of all the key resource in the game then I can demand a high price for it. If someone disovers a large cache of resource and my percentage falls to 10% now I cann't demand the same preimium for my resource.

So even though the amounts can fluctuate the monitary figure changes in different proportions.

Rikimaru_X · January 2006

I was just reading this and my cat attacked me so I'll get back to you on this.

Talinguard · January 2006

Here kitty, kitty, kitty.... Time for kitty to have an "accident" ::::23::

Patriarch · January 2006

You're a pretyy bright kid I must say, you've got alot of good ideas.

Unfortunately, most of your ideas have alot of negative results. I believe this was already posted above me,

With the 'mine' system you would be placing the key resource of the game into the hands of few, thereby creating an oligarchy.. which nobody really enjoys.(except for those few who are in power.)

So also, think about the other players in the game, who just want to kill npcs, loot the large broadsword from that black spider they killed and go about their business. I personally would find it really annoying if my equipment, and everything else in the world I was escaping into was constantly degrading at a rate that you are suggesting, but hey.. that may just be me, other people might like it when their shiz falls apart.
Most MMOs that are being released now have a storyline behind the game (See Also : EvE , Guild Wars..) I really can't think that with the core play revolving around doing something as boring as defending the same mine over, and over that there would be much time for a maleficent NPC faction to rise up and try to topple a dynamic PC presence. I will agree with you however, that it is rather stupid for some monsters to drop what they drop, i.e. : Black Spider has dropped Shimmering Broadsword, 10gp, 26 wood planks.

Also: Try the free 14 day trial for EvE Online, it's a free d/l and it is well worth your time. Even if EvE isn't the type of game you normally go for, there are some really brilliant concepts in play there.

thoreau · January 2006

Originally posted by Talinguard
Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by TalinguardFirst of all, how do we deal with money? In the real world there is (arguably) a finite amount of money, so essentially we all fight for a piece of the pie (I believe this is referred to as a zero sum economy).

the real world is not a zero sum economy. the economy (or pie) can and does grow. for example, China's economy has grown about 10% for the last 10 years. the pie can get bigger.

First just because China grows by 20% doent mean that other countries have not had thier economies turn down as a result.

The economy has grown in the past 10 years in China, the U.S., the U.K., and India. Those together equal about half the world economy. Globally speaking, the economy of the entire world grew 4.9% in 2004. This is proof that the pie has gotten larger.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html#Econ

Talinguard · January 2006

Originally posted by Patriarch
You're a pretyy bright kid I must say, you've got alot of good ideas.Unfortunately, most of your ideas have alot of negative results. I believe this was already posted above me,With the 'mine' system you would be placing the key resource of the game into the hands of few, thereby creating an oligarchy.. which nobody really enjoys.(except for those few who are in power.)So also, think about the other players in the game, who just want to kill npcs, loot the large broadsword from that black spider they killed and go about their business. I personally would find it really annoying if my equipment, and everything else in the world I was escaping into was constantly degrading at a rate that you are suggesting, but hey.. that may just be me, other people might like it when their shiz falls apart.
Most MMOs that are being released now have a storyline behind the game (See Also : EvE , Guild Wars..) I really can't think that with the core play revolving around doing something as boring as defending the same mine over, and over that there would be much time for a maleficent NPC faction to rise up and try to topple a dynamic PC presence. I will agree with you however, that it is rather stupid for some monsters to drop what they drop, i.e. : Black Spider has dropped Shimmering Broadsword, 10gp, 26 wood planks.Also: Try the free 14 day trial for EvE Online, it's a free d/l and it is well worth your time. Even if EvE isn't the type of game you normally go for, there are some really brilliant concepts in play there.

Kid? not sure I qualify as a "kid"..... ::::33::

Anyway, I find it extremely ironic that somone that plays DAoC to talk about bordom that would result from having to take over the same structures over and over. If you have taken Beno, Crauch, or Bleed once you have taken them 1,000 times. Talk about pointless. Run into the frontier, find enemy, kill or be killed, rise, repeat. I don't mean to come off as sarcastic, but DAoC is one of the first games that took a sucsessful leap from RPG. However the Realm vs Realm idea was fantastic, but beacuse the game has so little depth Mythic is forced to follow the carrot and stick model. lets face it, each expantion has introduced new classes races and weapons that are often more powerful than were available previously. This of course means that if you enjoy RvR you are forced to spend countless hours on the treadmill aquiring the items needed to e viable in RvR. Ironicly it seems as though every time you get everything you need a new expantion comes out making PvE a requirement.....

I find little differnce between fixing my stuff, and money sinks. The wear rate would be realistic and based on factors not simply a wear-over-time formula.

Like I said the idea is just an idea and would require some "out-of-the-box thinking to implement. I cant be the only person here who is so tired of the state of todays MMO's. I feel like a lost soul in search of a game....Money is shaping games not necessarly what players want. Until we ask for more we will continue to get less

Thanks for the reading the OP....

Talinguard · January 2006

Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by Talinguard
Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by TalinguardFirst of all, how do we deal with money? In the real world there is (arguably) a finite amount of money, so essentially we all fight for a piece of the pie (I believe this is referred to as a zero sum economy).

the real world is not a zero sum economy. the economy (or pie) can and does grow. for example, China's economy has grown about 10% for the last 10 years. the pie can get bigger.

First just because China grows by 20% doent mean that other countries have not had thier economies turn down as a result.

The economy has grown in the past 10 years in China, the U.S., the U.K., and India. Those together equal about half the world economy. Globally speaking, the economy of the entire world grew 4.9% in 2004. This is proof that the pie has gotten larger.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html#Econ

I unnderstand what your saying, this is why I wrote "argueably" in my OP. This point has little relevence on my concept. Because the world of an MMO is "in a vacume" than we can control the economy more tightly.
One other point is the more money that comes available the less that each "dollar" is worth.

runkle · January 2006

Originally posted by Talinguard
There are several parts to the foundation of a good game. I would put the economy near or at the top. Instead of simply asking, or bitching I will define some points that I think make a good economy and read the replies.....Here is the real problem have have with most MMO's up until this point. Something I call the "Mob Driven Economy" (or MDE from here on). This is where players are forced (if they wish to be competitive) to kill NPC mobs in order to loot cash and items. The amount of the reward is usually loosely tied to risk and is modified by the players equipment, strategy and overall playing skill.
Lets take the ubiquitous Gremlin, think of him as a representation of the mob of choice from whatever games you play/have played in the past....
Now how many of us have killed this creature only to find him carrying some amount of coin and items. How many of us have asked ourselves why this creature has dropped the particular items that are dropped, far out of context of the type of mob and surrounding. Not to mention that if I were a Gremlin I probably would have used these items against my attacker.The point here is that MMO's have often followed the time honored formula of......
Time spent farming mobs is proportionately rewarded with money and items (and in most cases experience).
This is of course modified by the utility/power of your equipment and how you, and perhaps your group, work within the confines of the system your playing in so that you get the most reward for the least amount of effort. The problem is, is that this formula hasent changed much since the days of The Legend of Zelda. You kill mobs and find items and money and use your money to buy items that will make obtaining more items and money easier, presumably by being able to hunt more difficult creatures that drop proportionally larger rewards. Ok so I think I have established that I don't care for a MDE, and I hope most of you agree, so let me move on....The economy is a HUGE opportunity to create more than just a community. After all a community is where a group of people with the same interests interact. What community lacks is interdependence. Lets move beyond community to an online society where players are compelled (notice I didn't say forced) to work together. This leaves room for all player types, monevolent, or benevolent or those that play non stop or seldomly.So having said that, how do we accomplish this? Well, since my day job involves corporate data storage and not the creation of MMO's and how they work all I can do is spot, ideas that I fully expect to be picked apart.....But here goes...First of all, how do we deal with money? In the real world there is (arguably) a finite amount of money, so essentially we all fight for a piece of the pie (I believe this is referred to as a zero sum economy). However the nature of a persistent world makes this type of economy very difficult to implement since money can be removed from most games, in theory, permanently. In the real world money put in a bank doesn't stay there its invested. How can we emulate this in the persistant game wold?We need to create wealth and that wealth has to be based on a system that recycles itself. One idea I had was to make a matirial that must be primarly be"mined" and that material would be the foundation upon which all items in the game are made. There would presumably be many other components that are unique and an object could have many components to make, but all would contain this one matirial, lets call it "Dust". Dust would be the standard of currency. Now the twist is that Dust cannot be taken out of the game, i.e. banked in the traditional sense. Players would be forced to put there dust somewhere in the world, making it vulnerable to other players. One of my ideas is that players would deposit thier dust into a vault in guild houses. Either their own guild or someone else's guild. The amount of dust in a guilds vault would determine the overall strength of the guilds Fort/Keep. Since guilds want stong forts and players want safe money, then the mutual benefit would be that a player finds a safe place to keep his money, and the guild is able to make thier forts stronger. This would have the added benifit of having players help guilds they don't necessarily belong to to help protect their money (presumably one could not remove there money from a guild vault while its under sidge) ... There are other potential benifits, but in the interest of keeping the thread from becoming longer than the bible...I'll move on.So how do we "recycle"?
There would be mines of Dust in the world. The number of mines would be dependent on active player population over a given time (probable a month). The formula would of course would have to be tweaked after use. The mines would belong to groups of players, probably guilds or an alliance of guilds. The mine cannot be removed thus the wealth it provides stays in the world this has the added benifit of creating player conflict. The rules around the taking of a mine from another group could be complex and based on a number of factors, players may be able to build there forts/keeps around the mines.....
I should mention that mines are not bottomless pits of Dust, they contain a finite amount (remember the number of mines is based on the number of active players over a given time span. This would mean that those who are able to get to the bottom of their mine would have to seek out another and use a portion of the spoils from the first mine to fortify it so they could harvest another.Ok so now we know how the source of the "wealth" recycles but what happens once its made into an object?
Simple, the rate of decay is fairly high, if an item drops to 0 than it is broken, but repairs are made fairly easily. Presumably someone would choose to become a smith and would be able to repair using Dust.
Whenever an item decays the amount that it decays goes back into the world spread equally throughout all the existing mines. So if I had an item that used 100 dust to make, for every one percent that it decays 1% of the Dust would return equally to the world. Here is an example. If there hare 10,000 players in game in a day, those players items decay a total of 50,000 "Dust units" and there are 500 mines in the world then each mine would receive 50 units of replenishment per day (these are fictitious numbers to illustrate my point). Because the decay is dynamic, money sinks would not be needed and maybe ebaying would be a lot less profitable (or so expensive that only the most insane would buy.
So, lets think about how this effects the world.....In the past large guilds with uber players would farm mobs and start to outrun those smaller groups at an almost exponential pace. Now (I hope) that this system would allow some groups to move ahead, but the farther they get the harder it becomes.
Ok here is an in game scinerio.....
Guild one takes a mine and fortifies it. Of course they would use the Dust mined there plus any other objects from the world to create that fort. Presumably that fort would decay like everything else so the maintenance cost would be high, and would get higher based on the amount of protection it provides. Eventually the mine runs dry, but is replenished periodically (remember that everything in the world is decaying all the time, and that decay is spread back out across the world). Once the guild that owns the mine runs out of Dust a guild would have to spread out the remaining resource from this mine as it attempts to grow, or it would be forced to capture another mine or find other ways to obtain Dust. Remember that a second fort would cost a lot in Dust, perhaps a provision in the game says that each for takes a slightly larger percentage of dust than the one before.Other ways of making Dust would be in the selling of surplus items, perhaps explorers could search the world to find small one time caches of Dust, certain intelligent mobs could defend certain places that contained small amounts of Dust. Thieves could steal it from other players, and politicians could control certain areas and players might be forced to pay in dust for certain services.With a system like this the currency, "DUST" would stay in the world and could naturally be adapted to control inflation, prevent the need for money sinks and give an almost real value to the currency of the world.So far what I have defined is a system that is highly feudal, where players are fighting other players, and imo that is what makes MMO's fun.What I have defined here is a framework and is open to interpretation and improvement. If you disagree then so be it, I'm really interested in hearing from people who can see the benefit and either need more clarification or even better can expand on my ideas....I know the attention span of most is short, so if you have actually read the entire post, your either really board or really interested

Welcome to Eve:Online.

Talinguard · January 2006

^^ D/L'ing now....

DirtyBuild · January 2006

Someone mentioned this already, but I'll add my ideas. Lets say 10 Clans or Alliances exists in the fictional game world. If another faction was made, essentially another "mine" for 'Dust' would be created, which would lower the value of currency, no? And if there would be a set number of these 'Dust mines', than how would smaller clans or even solo players cope with this?

But I have to say, I am 100% behind you. I know that at higher lvl's in most MMO's, currency becomes pratically useless (as of my experience). It's not easy comming up with new ideas, but production companies should put much thought into this.

Patriarch · January 2006

Originally posted by Talinguard
Originally posted by Patriarch
You're a pretyy bright kid I must say, you've got alot of good ideas.Unfortunately, most of your ideas have alot of negative results. I believe this was already posted above me,With the 'mine' system you would be placing the key resource of the game into the hands of few, thereby creating an oligarchy.. which nobody really enjoys.(except for those few who are in power.)So also, think about the other players in the game, who just want to kill npcs, loot the large broadsword from that black spider they killed and go about their business. I personally would find it really annoying if my equipment, and everything else in the world I was escaping into was constantly degrading at a rate that you are suggesting, but hey.. that may just be me, other people might like it when their shiz falls apart.
Most MMOs that are being released now have a storyline behind the game (See Also : EvE , Guild Wars..) I really can't think that with the core play revolving around doing something as boring as defending the same mine over, and over that there would be much time for a maleficent NPC faction to rise up and try to topple a dynamic PC presence. I will agree with you however, that it is rather stupid for some monsters to drop what they drop, i.e. : Black Spider has dropped Shimmering Broadsword, 10gp, 26 wood planks.Also: Try the free 14 day trial for EvE Online, it's a free d/l and it is well worth your time. Even if EvE isn't the type of game you normally go for, there are some really brilliant concepts in play there.

Kid? not sure I qualify as a "kid"..... ::::33::

Anyway, I find it extremely ironic that somone that plays DAoC to talk about bordom that would result from having to take over the same structures over and over. If you have taken Beno, Crauch, or Bleed once you have taken them 1,000 times. Talk about pointless. Run into the frontier, find enemy, kill or be killed, rise, repeat. I don't mean to come off as sarcastic, but DAoC is one of the first games that took a sucsessful leap from RPG. However the Realm vs Realm idea was fantastic, but beacuse the game has so little depth Mythic is forced to follow the carrot and stick model. lets face it, each expantion has introduced new classes races and weapons that are often more powerful than were available previously. This of course means that if you enjoy RvR you are forced to spend countless hours on the treadmill aquiring the items needed to e viable in RvR. Ironicly it seems as though every time you get everything you need a new expantion comes out making PvE a requirement.....

I find little differnce between fixing my stuff, and money sinks. The wear rate would be realistic and based on factors not simply a wear-over-time formula.

Like I said the idea is just an idea and would require some "out-of-the-box thinking to implement. I cant be the only person here who is so tired of the state of todays MMO's. I feel like a lost soul in search of a game....Money is shaping games not necessarly what players want. Until we ask for more we will continue to get less

Thanks for the reading the OP....

I don't really see what my gaming history has to do with anything...and I never said anything regaling the PvP in Dark Age of Camelot :P

I'm just suggesting that the game that you are formulating in your mind is going to have very limited options for PvP, or at least PvP that would have any reason to it.

Talinguard · January 2006

Originally posted by DirtyBuild
Someone mentioned this already, but I'll add my ideas. Lets say 10 Clans or Alliances exists in the fictional game world. If another faction was made, essentially another "mine" for 'Dust' would be created, which would lower the value of currency, no? And if there would be a set number of these 'Dust mines', than how would smaller clans or even solo players cope with this?But I have to say, I am 100% behind you. I know that at higher lvl's in most MMO's, currency becomes pratically useless (as of my experience). It's not easy comming up with new ideas, but production companies should put much thought into this.

The number of mines would depend on the number of active actts over a given time. An active aacct would be any acct used in the the last X number of days.

I use "mines" but lets try to remember that a "mine" is mearly a physical representaion of a place that we could aquire resources in game.

To answer your question the amount of "Dust" would almost always be in relitive proportion to the number of players.

Here is a totaly hypothetical..
Lets say that the formula that was going to be used alocated 1000 units of dust per active player (1,000 dust would allow a player to reach 80% of his/her potential), and there are 100,000 active accts, then there would be 100,000,000 units of dust in the world.

If there were 5,000 mines in the world than each mine would have 200,000 dust per mine.

Now, as mentioned if 1000 dust is enough to reach 80% of his potential, then if you were to create items that brought you close to your full potential then, at least in theory somone else has fallen behind.

What I'm suggesting is not a game for the meek. Its a world where you must earn your keep, but as many here have said that true reward only comes with real risk and hardship.

The system I am suggesting would need a lot of love, but I'm an advocate of trying to maintain some sort of balence in the game. The old bell curve would definitly apply. With most players falling somewhere in the middle. If they fall to far then the game would have systems to help pick them up. If a person (or faction) climbs to high then the difficulty would go up. Most players would adapt and try to meet the challenges they face, the meek would come here and bitch about how much the game sucks ::::02::

In the simplest context think of it sort of as king of the hill (an anology) The higher you (or your guild/clan/faction) climb the more you will be noticed and the more you set yourself out to be a target of those who envy your station....

The answer to the smaller clans question would simply be that they would have to join alliences to meet some of thier goals. there would be pros and cons of this, just as there would be pros and cons of having a single guild/clan who didn't have to join an allience.....

Talinguard · January 2006

Originally posted by Patriarch
Originally posted by Talinguard
Originally posted by Patriarch
You're a pretyy bright kid I must say, you've got alot of good ideas.Unfortunately, most of your ideas have alot of negative results. I believe this was already posted above me,With the 'mine' system you would be placing the key resource of the game into the hands of few, thereby creating an oligarchy.. which nobody really enjoys.(except for those few who are in power.)So also, think about the other players in the game, who just want to kill npcs, loot the large broadsword from that black spider they killed and go about their business. I personally would find it really annoying if my equipment, and everything else in the world I was escaping into was constantly degrading at a rate that you are suggesting, but hey.. that may just be me, other people might like it when their shiz falls apart.
Most MMOs that are being released now have a storyline behind the game (See Also : EvE , Guild Wars..) I really can't think that with the core play revolving around doing something as boring as defending the same mine over, and over that there would be much time for a maleficent NPC faction to rise up and try to topple a dynamic PC presence. I will agree with you however, that it is rather stupid for some monsters to drop what they drop, i.e. : Black Spider has dropped Shimmering Broadsword, 10gp, 26 wood planks.Also: Try the free 14 day trial for EvE Online, it's a free d/l and it is well worth your time. Even if EvE isn't the type of game you normally go for, there are some really brilliant concepts in play there.

Kid? not sure I qualify as a "kid"..... ::::33::

Anyway, I find it extremely ironic that somone that plays DAoC to talk about bordom that would result from having to take over the same structures over and over. If you have taken Beno, Crauch, or Bleed once you have taken them 1,000 times. Talk about pointless. Run into the frontier, find enemy, kill or be killed, rise, repeat. I don't mean to come off as sarcastic, but DAoC is one of the first games that took a sucsessful leap from RPG. However the Realm vs Realm idea was fantastic, but beacuse the game has so little depth Mythic is forced to follow the carrot and stick model. lets face it, each expantion has introduced new classes races and weapons that are often more powerful than were available previously. This of course means that if you enjoy RvR you are forced to spend countless hours on the treadmill aquiring the items needed to e viable in RvR. Ironicly it seems as though every time you get everything you need a new expantion comes out making PvE a requirement.....

I find little differnce between fixing my stuff, and money sinks. The wear rate would be realistic and based on factors not simply a wear-over-time formula.

Like I said the idea is just an idea and would require some "out-of-the-box thinking to implement. I cant be the only person here who is so tired of the state of todays MMO's. I feel like a lost soul in search of a game....Money is shaping games not necessarly what players want. Until we ask for more we will continue to get less

Thanks for the reading the OP....

I don't really see what my gaming history has to do with anything...and I never said anything regaling the PvP in Dark Age of Camelot :P

I'm just suggesting that the game that you are formulating in your mind is going to have very limited options for PvP, or at least PvP that would have any reason to it.

No you didn't mention DAoC, but you did mention bordom regarding the taking of a stratigic point such as my hypothetical "mine". I simply pointed out the irony of your statment having played DAoC on Bors since its inception and how fimilar I am with spending hours taking defended keeps for little if no reward (other than "realm points")..

Not real sure what you mean by limited options in PvP, after all all I have defined here is the economy, which, while important is just one of the legs that any good MMO should stand on.

I think you took my post as slightly less than civil. Wasen't ment that way and, really, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

But wild sucseses require wild ideas, and this idea is no better than a giant block of marble, it needs to be shapped and to do that people are going to have to think outside the box.

Or the whole idea could be worthless, who knows, I just threw it out there......

Later man...

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