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Rethinking the XP/Level Grind
Gudrunix
Member Posts: 149
The (Boring, Repetitive) Race to 50(/60/80/100)
A new MMORPG has been released, and we are treated to the exact same spectacle we have seen in game release after game release: players solo or in groups racing across the landscape, "farming" XP in the most efficient way possible, whether through defeating enemies and/or completing quests, so that they can hit max level and start playing "the real game" (or hang around the forums and complain that they're "bored").
Frankly, it's all a bit silly, and it raises the simple question: why do games still have the boring repetitive Level 1 through Level 50 (/60/70/80/2000) Experience Point-based grind?
I don't know anyone who has seriously declared that they like it, let alone love it. I don't know any game designers that sit down and say, "what we'd really like in our MMO is for gamers to grind through 50(++) levels doing repetitive quests and defeating the same enemies over and over." So why do they still design games this way, and why do players still tolerate it?
Why Do Players Prefer the "End Game" over Leveling Up?
There's a good question that's been asked, and is worth exploring: why not make the whole game the "end game"? The real question that that raises is this: what is it about the end game that so many players find to be more satisfying than the XP/level grind?
The even more interesting thing is that some of the answers to that question may highlight features which, on their own, may be unpopular with players. But features that are unpopular on their own may actually combine for a more satisfying experience overall.
Some of my thoughts on what makes the "end game" more satisfying, and which may have implications for making the leveling up experience more rewarding:
Lockouts.
I am becoming convinced that lockouts are the big secret for the longevity of the end-game. If it weren't for the very restrictive lockouts on the most significant end-game instances, players would have exhausted its content within a few weeks, if not a few days, of new releases. But the lockouts put a strict limit on the rate at which content is released, which keeps the players playing the game.
Try adding lockouts to single-player content - especially anything related to leveling up - and you will hear cries of bloody murder from players. But there is no question that it would dramatically extend the longevity of the game.
Multiplayer-only Content.
I think this is the other big secret to the longevity of end-game content in general. When you need multiple players to complete given content, that dramatically slows the pace at which it can be completed, and significantly increases the difficulty of it, due to the difficulty of lining up and coordinating multiple people.
Gear Checks.
Punitive gear checks are a very effective way of slowing advancement - and in fact, gear checks are the primary method of restricting advancement in Action RPGs. The old roguelike games that preceded ARPGs had incredibly brutal gear checks, which meant that players spent a long time farming gear before they could advance; XP and level were secondary considerations when the real question was if you could avoid getting one-shotted ("The drolem breathes poison. You die.")
Modern MMORPGs have trivialized gear for the XP/leveling up process by very generous gear drops from questing - very popular with players, but it means that the leveling grind is all about farming XP as fast as possible, because players are virtually guaranteed to get the gear they need in the process.
Crafting/Gathering Requirements.
This is somewhat less of a factor than it used to be, but in the past, gearing up for the end-game often required a lot of materials gathering for crafting and consumables, which was a major time sink (ahh . . . the good old days of BRD runs for Dark Iron Ore). Again, this has been trivialized by easy gear for players leveling up, which minimizes the need for crafted gear or consumables.
Fixing the Leveling Up Process
So, what to do about the leveling up process?
My suggestion: have leveling tied to end-game-type content, e.g., progression through difficult instances with significant gear requirements (preferably multi-player, although very difficult solo instances may work as well). Players would level up by completing significant achievements in end-game-type content, not just by grinding out a zillion boar kills. Open world content would not be for grinding XP for levels, but for gearing up, gathering, crafting, and making friends. And best of all, hitting max level would actually mean something again.
TL;DR: If players find the "end game" to be more satisfying, then tie leveling up to an "end game"-like experience, and drop the XP/level grind.
Comments
I don't understand why people complain about the level/grind in mmorpgs. It's the very core game play that makes it an mmorpg over an adventure game. Any old school rpg you play you level up. You Grind. It will never change. It's just apart of the type of game we choose to play. The grind/leveling system is only boring when mmos make that grind like a job. It's not enjoyable. I enjoyed the leveling in EQ even though it was slower versus the leveling in WoW. I felt that WoW was more of a job than EQ was. That's my opinion.
What you propose sounds like an adventure game. or a lobby based game. And a lot of mmo gamers are sick of lobby games. They want a world. Not bad ideas for a lobby game but would take out the very nature of the MMORPG gameplay. It's point is to progress. Weather with its with level or skills you will always level something. It's the very nature of the game.
What was your first mmo? Have you ever considered that MMORPG's are not for you? Perhaps you may enjoy adventure games instead.
You will always level or progress in some way shape or form. When you don't do that then you have an adventure game, not an RPG or an mmorpg.
I also want to say that when mmo's first came out it was limited to technology. They where meant to be RPG's that are played with people at the same time in a game world. I don't think the solution is to take away from the very core aspect of RPGS (leveling/xp) but to introduce players to more of an adventure while leveling up. Create immersive gameplay elements that will help mask the leveling grind/xp gain. The best designs are when the grind is masked and it doesn't convey the grind that much. With technology now with better gaming engines there are more possibilities to program for these type of gameplay elements.
/thread.
I think the only two games I played where I wasn't just going for the top level was, (my fav ever) SWG and Wow. I know, I know, wow has now major grind, hit the top level stuff... but I enjoyed the game while leveling. repeated dungeons looking for the second or third part of item set etc. SWG skill point system is the best way ( I think
) to have for class xp. There is no TOP LEVEL, you can max out and change class/skill set when you feel like it. Hoping The Repopulation hits the spot.
Thanks
Dead
You just described why i loved vanilla / TBC wow so much. Everything in your list was there before WotLK ruined everything. For some reason developers have moved away from this design and they seem to think it as an improvement to the genre while clearly it's not.
And before someone says 'you could level up to the cap in wow by solo-grinding mobs' i just want to point out you still had to gear up and max your professions to participate in any endgame activity; being level 60 (70) didn't mean much.
I honestly believe, as the OP suggests, that even without levels vanilla wow would have been pretty much the same than it was with levels. You had to run f.ex Sunken Temple several times to gear up for BRD, and while being on 60 significantly improved your stats and survivability, it was your gear that kept you alive. However, this would had been a lot more interesting if one hadn't been able to 'nerf' content by running it over-leveled. I really wish every class would had been as gear dependant as warriors were.
Having levels only made the game easier and trivialized content for everyone; you grinded to the max and ran dungeons that were too low for your level. With no levels every dungeon would had been a challenge as long as there was something you wanted to drop for you.
So yes, i'm in favor of getting rid of levels in MMORPGs; or at least drop the stat increase and let the gear determine your power. Anyone can grind pigs in Elwynn but getting a decent set of gear takes time and keeps you busy in a game.
Well, I love it. I love leveling. So now you know one.
What I DON'T like is "get to level cap and raid".
But my first mmo was Lineage 2 where leveling meant power and being able to pvp/pve better. It was rare to see anyone get to level cap.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think you have some very valid points but I disagree with cutting out or cutting back on the grind, I think it is an essential part of the old school experience and it is what helped players socialise with others and encouraged them to form groups. The grind also played a very big part in slowing down progression and end game, throwing in raid lockouts on top of the grind and making some of the raids gear orientated, while increasing the size of the raid mobs loot tables, also worked very well in bringing players and guilds together, making them prioritise and put the effort in to reap the rewards (attendance for DKP, being a standout or important player in your role etc).
I still have great memories from grinding exp and faction in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes on my main and many alts, it brought people together in many ways but mainly for convenience (easier with more) and speed (with extra Dps and heals to allow everyone to go a little more crazy).
I really wish someone could take all the best parts of EQ and VG (only these two games with only their vanilla features (with exceptions for broken features/fixes etc)) and turn them into a very similar type of game, with new graphics and more modern technology, I would be willing to throw money at the company who creates a game like that and does it properly.
I made the mistake of thinking that Pantheon RotF would be that game.
Just posting to note that, in the OP, you mention that no one ever specifically says they love questing, or that you've never seen/met anyone who does.
Let me change that. I LOVE questing. I love levelling up and I hate reaching max level because of the change it means in gameplay. I do professions to slow down my levelling. I gather to slow down levelling. I clear entire zones to slow down levelling. I do every little thing possible to slow down levelling as much as possible and it still usually goes too fast. In TERA, despite taking my time, I'm already over halfway levelled and it's only been 26 hours of playtime. That's depressing.
So no, I'm absolutely not interested in anything that will speed up levelling. Not one little bit.
Lissyl, I know you prefer solo from your other posts, but I really feel like, if given a great server/guild, you could enjoy that old school, group-style MMO. Part of the fun of those was that the leveling process (without being powerleveled) took a long, long time and, as such, you tended to group a lot with the same folks over and over. It was a lot of fun exploring dungeons with a crew, venturing deeper as everyone grew more powerful.
I don't know your personal history with MMOs, but I really think you would've enjoyed what others called the "grind." Wasn't so much quest grind as it was, "Go to this new place, kill the camps there.. Once more powerful, start exploring this dungeon, kill camps/bosses there. Wash, Repeat." All the while, the downtime provided ample opportunity to BS around with the people you were grouping with. And honestly, with a good group of folks, the downtime was just as fun as the combat.
I agree with some points. Remover levels and let everyone one do what they want. For those that enjoy the quest grind let them continue to quest grind fro eternity. For those that enjoy the Dungeon/Raid grind let them do that from the start. For those that like to grind mobs, have at it. For those that like to gather and craft, yup... you can do that too. Oh yeah, PvP grind too, both instanced and open world to meet both camps requirements.
Do away with mob levels and have scaling instead, both in and out of dungeons.
Never happen though, someone will always complain about having to do something they don't like.
I think OP is playing the wrong genre of game. Maybe you should try MOBAs or FPS...or just stick to WOW, i hear they let you instantly max level your character now so you can just click a button once and be done with the game. Seems like what you want.
All I heard was "why i hate MMORPGs" and a list of hating everything that makes it an MMORPG.
End game content sucks. Raids suck. Leveling teaches you how to actually play. Playing through the game is the only thing that even remotely resembles the "RPG" part...
Getting to max level and just raiding forever seems like the most boring thing ever, no immersion.
I will be another one that says I do not like end game content, i prefer to play through the game. If anything I'd rather have a game with no definitive "end game" or that just cycles through wrapping around itself. Thats how a game actually lasts longer than a month.
~I am Many~
Actually, I started with pen and paper RPGs, then progressed to computer RPGs, to MMORPGs.
The earliest (pen-and-paper) RPGs were most certainly not about the grind - they were about getting together with friends and completing a difficult encounter. You didn't sit around all day and kill yetis, you cleared a dungeon and congratulated yourself on the achievement (unless you had a sadistic DM, in which case you all died). XP/levels were there to give some sense of long-term progression, and with the gear you picked up, to help prepare you for more challenging encounters. But ultimately, it was about working with other players in prevailing over difficult challenges, and having good stories to tell in the process.
I think the earliest MMORPGs were designed to try and capture that, but instead, players just found it was easier to grind out XP solo by farming mobs, and to buy their gear at the auction house, than it was to form up groups with other players and take on lengthy encounters. That resulted in marginal parts of the original RPG model - XP, gold, and leveling up - getting elevated far above what should have been the most important aspects - working with other players, overcoming big challenges, exploring the world and the lore.
I think that's what's fundamentally wrong with MMORPGs right now, and why the overall population is declining. The focus on the grind has resulted in a certain number of innovations that have made the grind less grind-y, but in the process, both designers and players have forgotten that it was never about the grind in the first place - it was about the sense of achievement, which has almost completely been lost due to the repetitive and monotonous nature of the grind.
I should recognize that several people here have said that they're just fine with the grind - but, well, you're still here. I'm speaking more to the interests of the milions of players who have clearly moved on from MMORPGs to other games, like MOBAs, RTSs, and computer CCGs. The grind may be just what you want in an MMORPG, but it clearly isn't what a whole lot of other players want in their MMORPG, myself included, as it's been years since I've played an MMORPG.
For the people here who seem to think that MMORPGs are all about killing a bazillion boars until you ding 60, well, you've got a hundred games to choose from. But if you have any interest in attracting new players, or getting back the players who have left, or hanging on to the players who are bored out of their minds and ready to head out the door, you'll have to start entirely rethinking the model of how the game works.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I forgot to respond to this point - I actually don't like lobby games. I really like open world, and I find the fact that coherent encounters have to be run in an instance is unfortunate. I really like open world content, but I'm honest about the fact that a leveling system and an open world combine to trivialize a lot of content, as you can basically over-level otherwise challenging encounters.
My point was that you have to think seriously about a more complex progression than just kill-stuff-and-get-XP-and-level-up. Having to complete instances is one way to do that. But another is a very gear-dependent system that combines challenges, exploration, crafting, etc. - that is, something like the system that Terraria uses. Terraria doesn't have an XP and leveling system, and effectively uses an open world, but it does have a clear progression, and there's a very real sense of achievement as you progress, not just "well, dinged level 44, on to level 45, I guess, say, I wonder if there's somewhere I can farm XP faster."
I totally agree. I really like open skill systems that have either minor or no stat boosts, where your power is a combination of your gear, your stat build, and your (real world) skill at playing the game. The major downside is that content can be trivialized by letting players buy higher power gear, so you'd have to think about how you'd limit that while still maintaining a meaningful economy.I would argue that "leveling" and acquiring new powers/abilities were also a part of it.
Grind is subjective.
I think standard themepark "end games" are a grind. Repeating some instance over and over again just to get a piece of gear?
Doing it a few times can be fun but after a while "why bother".
Yet I love killing mobs, maybe in a group (sometimes) and getting those "oh sh*t moments when something spawns on top of your group while you are fighting.
Or just being in a field and aggroing one too many mobs and figuring out how to take them all down without running.
a "grind" is what people don't find fun. You don't find leveling fun. I, and by this thread "others", do find it fun.
Nothing wrong with either stance but you might not find a lot of people agreeing with you here. Some though. I probably could name a few on this site who would agree with you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I love it too. In fact, it's all I play. I will never play endgame, ever, on any game. I play until I hit max level, then I retire the character and either start an alt or stop playing the game altogether. I refuse to play with people whose only goal is to race through leveling to endgame. That's one reason I don't group.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I was suggesting getting rid of the leveling a few times allready, even started threads about it.
The reason why there's leveling is to basically to get players used to their characters and the characters talents/abilities/skills. I don't think it's necessary tho, but think of leveling as of a very long tutorial.
I'd love to see a MMO, where you don't have any character-progression at all and start with a character to your liking. Progress then would be totally down to gear-progression basically, if at all.
MMOs should be about the story and the multiplayer-parts, but none of them require any character or gear-progression actually. As players love to see some rewards for their achievements, handing out some new shiny gear is a good approach tho.
Getting rid of the XP/Level-grind would be very welcome here, and it actually would free up alot more time for developing storylines and endgame-content. Getting rid of character-progression would make class-balancing alot easier aswell, especially when you limit the talents/abilities/skills to a reasonable minimum and focus more on playerskill instead.
Even better yet, get rid of classes alltogether and allow players to come up with their very own setups/builds. TSW was actually quiet nice in that regard.
It would work imho, but it wouldn't spoonfed the players with constant rewards for simply playing along, and that's probably the biggest issue right there. Most people like beig spoonfed and get rewarded constantly.
I guess I am one of the very few who understands different types of game styles. It blows my mind that people want something other than an mmorpg. The ones who dislike the level/grind/progression and don't understand it has never played a rpg before. Could anyone name more than 5 RPG titles where you don't level at all, you don't progress at all and there is no grind? This is the MMORPG forums. RPG is in there, just not mmo. The very NATURE of game play for an RPG is to level, progress your character. That is the point of the game other than story line elements.
The ones who complain about omitting the level and xp obviously don't enjoy mmorpgs. When you take away character progression and anyway shape or form you won't have an MMORPG anymore. It will be different kind of game. There will ALWAYS be xp/grind/progression in an mmorpg. IF you don't care for it then by all means play a different type of game. lol.
My answers will be in Orange.
An RPG has nothig to do with character-progression. It's what developers made out of it.
Look at the pen&paper RPGs. There's lots of titles without character-progression there to be found. The most known for it's lack of it would be Shadowrun.
Roleplaying just means, that you play a role, but it says nothing about progression, storyline or whatever.
Only 13% of WoW's player base ever raided. That means that 87% of the players passed on endgame of the game with the best endgame. Most players prefer 1-Max over Max+, me being one of them.
Answers in Orange as well.
What mmo has zero progression or levels or xp gain? Can you name one? I can. It was called Second Life. All you did was make stuff. People roleplayed there. Is that the type of game you guys want? I mean seriously even in PNP games there is leveling and progression and xp. The level/xp is just a style of gameplay while you roleplay. I don't understand why people don't comprehend it. It's very simple. It really truly is.
He said true , RPG don't have anything about character progression.
RPG all about put yourself in your character's shoes and chose the action that lead to result.
For example ,
you enter a dungeon and chose "action" to open a chest , then [BOOM] ... it a trap.
Or when you meet a NPC , you chose between hit on his face or give him a mead (lol)
The result maybe you get killed (by the guard) or befriend with him which lead to start some quest from him.
That's all RPG about
Character-progression are part of game level design but not necessary for role playing game ,
some PnP RPG don't even have character level .
I understand that you roleplay. I get that. Character progression with levels and xp is apart of the gameplay that is associated with RPGs is the point I am trying to convey...