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The difference of Solo through age.
iixviiiix
Member RarePosts: 2,256
We always have solo moment in MMORPG.
But the question is
Why in old games solo lead to group play naturally
while nowadays games solo make people don't want to group anymore and you have to "forced" them to group.
Same "solo" , but what make the two difference ?
Lately i find that it not solo vs group change how MMORPG are, but the change of "solo" play change MMORPG genre .
It just my theology , but what "solo" changed through age ?
Comments
There were different audiences. MMOs used to be for serious gamers. Now they are for everyone. People still play together, but there is no need to.
They are an extension of people's social lives now. Challenge, strategy, loss, consequence, risk, danger, down-time, etc. are not conducive to socializing.
I only know one person who still plays MMOs. He has online friends that he plays with. He gets hyped about an MMO every few weeks, plays it for that long, and quits.
EQ and its successors were boxed games that sold for $50 or so. They charged a monthly fee and required a credit card to access. Games now are free; their audience and quality reflect that.
Wow still have box price and monthly fee and yet it have the same problem so I kinda doubt that have much to do with anything.
I blame games in general, until the late 90s games were actually pretty hard and players were forced to become good.
Look on the 3 Diablo games, the first were actually pretty hard and beating diablo even in the easiest mode still took some skills. The second game suddenly was way easier and the third even more so.
Blaming the players is unfair, it is the difficulty of the games that is so low that people never really learn to play and there is no need to group for tougher challenges because there are none.
And I doubt that people wouldn't learn fast either, I was not that old when I got my C-64 and the difficulty of most games compared to modern games were nightmarish, if kids could learn that back then then adults can learn as well.
People just don't realize anymore how fun beating a really tough challenge since games just aren't made like that anymore. And that are devs and publishers fault, not the players.
In the dim, dark age of the first mmorpgs the players had usually played pen and paper RPGs which were intensely social affairs and treated mmorpgs as an extension of these tabletop sessions. Those days have long gone.
There may be quite a few old-style players still around, like myself, but they are lost amid the "hurry, hurry, must max my level asap" players. I can't be bothered to wade hip-deep through the endless chaff to find the wheat. Not any more.
WoW was one of EQ's successors. It is a different game now, just like all the rest. You are right, though, that it is a complex issue.
Difficulty is the main problem, but that ties in with free-to-play. If I had downloaded EQ back it 2001 along with two other MMOs, and thought EQ was too hard, I might have dropped it and gone to the others if they were easier. That was not the case: it cost roughly $60 up-front.
I don't even understand why you play mmorpgs. The point is to play with people. Why not play single player games? Why do you even comment on here? Just curious, when you're waiting in line at a grocery store do you cut in line in front of everyone and insist you must be the first because you have zero patience? Are you the guy who tailgates everyone while they drive because you're too impatient? Sorry was just seeing if how you are on the forums and what you complain most about reflect who you are in rl?
Exactly this. Once every player was calling his character a 'toon' and the genre started reaching the tipping point on non-TTRPG players, grouping was doomed. The original MMORPG'ers were social, but we also had grown up in an era where RPG's were socially isolated, so our social circles were very small as a general rule. When those circles expanded to include people who had no desire to put the RP in RPG, then we were playing different games. As usual, the TTRPG'ers were vastly outnumbered by those with no desire to understand and/or join the culture, so the companies turned their attention to those players and most of us faded off into the background or started playing by ourselves.
And that's when we found out playing alone was better than playing with a handful of obnoxious people who, were we to meet IRL, we wouldn't even speak to. If you're (generic) one of the aforementioned people who didn't think putting the RP in RPG was necessary, or it was 'lame', or whatever and just wanted to get 'your guy' to max level so you could pvp or raid...you're a goodly-sized part of the reason most of us won't group anymore.
i referred to my alts as toons in the early days preWOW
I never referred to my main character as a toon tho
EQ2 fan sites
Soloing content used to be something you did after you had been through it, learned it, found it easy with groups, and did just for fun/personal challenge. It used to require player skill, a unique build, and the right gear. Unfortunately, other people would see someone do this (usually through a video) then get all mad if they couldn't do it themselves and complain...
When a player ended up soloing something like "Raid" content you would either get 1 of 2 reactions:
1) People complain it was too hard and dev's throw down easy button (which is the wrong answer).
2) Dev's take it as a personal insult and make the content harder/change/cheat content (which is also the wrong answer).
~I am Many~
This post is about why mmos have gone more solo-oriented and why there is no point to play with people and what happend to games and/or people. He made a statement and it should be respected as such. If you want him to explain his statement further, you should do so instead of wondering why he's even on these fora.
Noone - well, not many - play mmorpgs. Most of us play mmos because the games we play, we play differently than we perhaps used to. Why? Well, the games and "us" are different and the mmo business is quite different than it used to be: money, time, designs, developments, expectations and so forth.
The lack of rpg (blame the players and game-designs) might be what have killed some of the group play; the reason to group is in some ways different today than before. And like pkpkpk stated "MMOs used to be for serious gamers. Now they are for everyone. People still play together, but there is no need to. " I tend to agree with him.
Once upon a time ...
There was once a single cohesive community on MMOs. There is no longer and will never be a single cohesive community on MMOs again. People need to deal with the reality of the situation, not wish for the good old days that are long gone and never coming back.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Three off the top of my head
To clarify that last one, when the game is hub-based, players are forced to a central meeting point. All other gather locations are less optimal and less desirable. This piles all the smaller communities into one main area. In earlier MMOs, players chose where they would meet, thus choosing like-minded groups to meet with. The previous design fostered interaction while the hub-based design attempts to force interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nah .. the point is not to play with people .. for me. And of course I play more SP games. Here is why I play MMORPGs.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/634/view/forums/post/5903599#5903599
In short, for the gameplay and IPs. If you find me a SP game in Star Trek The Next Generation era RPG with ship & ground combat, i will gladly play that. Until then, i will play STO as such.
I've seen this statement/question posed as far back as EQ and AC. I play solo, I really dislike grouping, I don't join guilds, and really have little patience for people in general, both in real life and on the internet. I do like the added content, game changes, and PvP. Am I the guy who cuts in line at the grocery store? Not at all because it wouldn't be fair but I will use the self checkout whenever I can to avoid boring chit chat the cashier may want to have. I will actually get out of my car at fast food places because the line is shorter inside. I only tailgate if the driver in front is in the passing lane and puttering along pegging the speed limit. I have a t-shirt that says "I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-stupid". Mostly a true statement and no shortage of stupidity around but honestly a little anti-social as well.
Who I am online is who I am in real life. I try to be polite, use manners, correct English, and unless there is a possible interesting debate or the few people I like I try to avoid people as much as possible.
I ponder that the reason is the way games expect us to play together has changed. Way back, there really wasn't group content. Not in the way we think of it today. Group play was very fuzzy. You didn't really have a hard defined line between group content and solo content. Group content was content a few levels above you. Roles where also rather fuzzy. You didn't have the set 1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS thing. You had really odd ball classes that fit poorly or didn't fit at all.
The difference is that as we went forward, we put more design into group content and that started to make a rift between solo stuff and group stuff. Group content was no longer just stuff 5 levels above you. It was now content specifically for groups (at your level) the class rolls also stared to get more and more defined and rigid. Group content was no longer a fuzzy thing. I think that fuzz was needed because it allowed for more flexibility in building groups. Without it, it's an exercise in frustration trying to shove people into the exact right hole.
That is the impression I get with grouping now a days. A lot of times it feels like people don't want to group with people, but robots.
I believe that is part of why I don't like MMOs now. Everything feels segregated and artificial. Everything type of content is split up and aimed at something specific happening. There is no freedom to be creative. Many of those oddball classes were fun to play solo and could take on group content with certain abilities they had and a little creativity. It seemed everything was aimed at small groups in a game like Everquest, but people found ways to solo and reasons to form large groups. I'd prefer that these segregated areas were removed. It makes the world feel more whole/real/fun to me. The classes actually weren't unusual. They were based off D&D 2nd edition classes (at least in EQ). The classes were never really balanced. They were made with fun in mind more then having everyone be equal in power.
I think the amount of asses that play now and 10 years ago are the same. the difference is that players had to act good or else there would be no progression. they would have trouble finding groups to get things done. I mean you could create a new character but all the time it took to get to where you were it was not a smart move. better communities, grouping and helpful players were a result of this. now people can hide behind party finders and worst case scenario create a new character because it takes no time to get those levels back.
I don't think MMOs have ever come close to solving one of the key problems with grouping, the actual logistics of getting several people together for a prolonged period of time to tackle content. My memories of pre-LFG times are of 80% waiting, 20% actually doing anything. As soon as we have the team assembled, somebody needs to take a break or an emergency pulls them away. Soloing is so popular in part because people don't like to have their time wasted and depending on unreliable others (or sometimes acknowledging that one is forced to be unreliable by Real Life) is a real drag.
Now that we can chat with actual friends while gaming and socialize in more efficient ways than killing time at a spawn camp, there's very little incentive by most to group up at all.
The logistic part is a big part of the problem. It is bloody hard to fix though. (At least not without fundamentally changing the content and style of group play.) You can try and sooth the problem with things like LFG, but they never hit at the heart of the problem.
That's the heart of it, and it follows that the casual player, whose time is restricted and valuable, doesn't want to wait any amount of time for a group to fall together.
I, however, feel that, simply balancing content around solo play and thereby creating MMOs where the most efficient method of progress is solo play, is a very easy-out. The focus should be on streamlining those logistics.
People would group in games like EQ because it was optional for experience gain. Whether or not this is a good thing is up to you - but since EQ went down in flames and WoW went on to dominate the industry - signs point to no.
Developers are giving people want they truly want. Soft grouping like in GW2 is a mighty fine compromise - I just wish they had a holy trinity and more of a gear ladder in that game.
The most streamlined way is LFD. You cannot get simpler than hitting one button (ok, may be Destiny .. where you don't even have to hit that button).
If any talking to group is viewed as slow and undesirable, you cannot do better than LFD (or a lobby).
And yes, it is a easy out ... but so what? Easy is not necessarily bad. In fact, in this case, solo & LFD are two very good solutions to many, given its popularity.
If there is no communication or organization required to complete content balanced around a group of folks (not including a group that plays together consistently and/or has run the exact dungeon multiple times), that's pretty damn cut, dry, and boring content. Nothing unexpected, everything happens in the same, general way.
And who says talking to a group is slow and undesirable? There simply isn't a need for it in most MMOs these days, so players don't bother. The most efficient method is mindlessly grinding mob camps or dungeons in route to the next kill or fetch quest. Just because you see that as totally fine due to a predisposition to avoiding everyone else in a multiplayer game, it does not mean the formula cannot be improved upon. You seem to think that all players that level in the most efficient, easy-to-manage way possible (solo grinding/questing) in most current MMOs do so because they hate interaction as you do. You ignore the fact that it's currently, in most MMOs, the most efficient, easy-to-manage way to progress.
Again, correlation does not always equal causation. Balancing an MMO around a player progressing from 1 to cap strictly by himself is an easy-bake solution to the issue of casual players, not a response to multiplayer gamers absolutely hating having to actually play multiplayer. What you seem to be supposing is that those players, at most, want mindlessly easy to complete group content that requires no interaction, other than targetting the same mob, or they'll desert an MMO because it forces them to actually play a multiplayer game with other players.
See, this is where I see a problem. If the game is time consuming then why are people logging on and expecting to be able to do something? If you don't have time to dedicate, then go do something else, play a single player game, watch some TV, read a couple of chapters in a book. It's like I wouldn't sit down to watch a 2 hour movie if I was going out in 45 minutes. Common sense seems lost on people these days, everything has to cater to the lowest common denominator.