And then, one day you are going to log into the ToA website and see this message...
´It is my unfortunate duty to inform all of you that we are momentarily freezing all development of ToA. You see, weve come to the end of our financial means and without an injection of capital ToA will not make it to market. We are putting all efforts into finding the required capital so you should expect to see even less of me/us around (if that´s possible, right?! ) for the foreseeable future.
In closing, I´ll shamelessly plug our own need for capital. Should you or someone you know might be interested in investing in the competitive yet highly profitable video game industry, please contact us. Interested parties may contact me directly at don@shadowpool.com for a complete business plan, proformas, and multimedia presentation, including in-game video footage. Please note that our required investment is in the six to seven figure range.
Best, Don Danielson Brax
I'm all for having a great debate about anything but when someone says something like this, it is time to walk away.
Why do you think it is not fair to copy and paste the message that the lead dev used 8 years ago?
I did not write that post, that is what he wrote the last time they suddenly cancelled the project. The three main people working on the project now, are the three main people who worked on the project before. They hyped up their game for a couple years, collected money from people who believed in their ´vision´, and then one day they posted this and disappeared. Now consider the fact they say they need almost a million dollars in that post, then they do a kickstarter last year with a goal of nearly a million dollars, which fails.. and now they have only raised $50k. If they think it takes a million to make their game, and they have 50k, don´t you think there is a good chance that the same message will come again?
That is HIS words, not mine.
Also, to the dev who posted here about dynamic spawning. Explain this to me. Why is it that the ´dynamic spawning´ only is happening from the large overhead position like the toolkit. Why is it that when you later play your actual character, it isn´t happening. When the character is being played, they show the 4 sizes of trees, and they show the guy running around the large trees. But nothing is growing. Like I said, the dynamic spawning and ´growing´ they are doing is only in the toolkit, not in the game.
and please please give us a date for your demo so we can all be proven wrong. 2016?
And then, one day you are going to log into the ToA website and see this message...
´It is my unfortunate duty to inform all of you that we are momentarily freezing all development of ToA. You see, weve come to the end of our financial means and without an injection of capital ToA will not make it to market. We are putting all efforts into finding the required capital so you should expect to see even less of me/us around (if that´s possible, right?! ) for the foreseeable future.
In closing, I´ll shamelessly plug our own need for capital. Should you or someone you know might be interested in investing in the competitive yet highly profitable video game industry, please contact us. Interested parties may contact me directly at don@shadowpool.com for a complete business plan, proformas, and multimedia presentation, including in-game video footage. Please note that our required investment is in the six to seven figure range.
Best, Don Danielson Brax
I'm all for having a great debate about anything but when someone says something like this, it is time to walk away.
Why do you think it is not fair to copy and paste the message that the lead dev used 8 years ago?
I did not write that post, that is what he wrote the last time they suddenly cancelled the project. The three main people working on the project now, are the three main people who worked on the project before. They hyped up their game for a couple years, collected money from people who believed in their ´vision´, and then one day they posted this and disappeared. Now consider the fact they say they need almost a million dollars in that post, then they do a kickstarter last year with a goal of nearly a million dollars, which fails.. and now they have only raised $50k. If they think it takes a million to make their game, and they have 50k, don´t you think there is a good chance that the same message will come again?
That is HIS words, not mine.
Also, to the dev who posted here about dynamic spawning. Explain this to me. Why is it that the ´dynamic spawning´ only is happening from the large overhead position like the toolkit. Why is it that when you later play your actual character, it isn´t happening. When the character is being played, they show the 4 sizes of trees, and they show the guy running around the large trees. But nothing is growing. Like I said, the dynamic spawning and ´growing´ they are doing is only in the toolkit, not in the game.
and please please give us a date for your demo.
On behalf of the Trials of Ascension team, we would like to wish you and your team the best on your game. Congratulations on the Steam Greenlight achievement, and we hope that you have a successful early release.
Our dynamic spawning technology allows us to control the speed that the spawning happens, as well as the growth rate. For the 15 seconds that we showed the in-character walkthrough, the spawning isn't occurring at the rapid visible rate because it was turned to actual gameplay speeds. I understand that you are skeptical about the technology, and you have a right to be so. With the number of MMOs that are seeking crowd funding, trying to distinguish between what is real vs. what is vaporware is an active challenge, and we are actively updating our backers on our progress to ensure that we have an open line of communication, and they can see what we are working on day-to-day.
There is no set ETA for the demo. All I can state is that it will be released to those with a demo pass when the roadmap that Brax posted earlier is completed.
I appreciate your skepticism Azrile, as it highlights some concerns that prospective supporters of Trials of Ascension may have. In the future we will address these concerns, and I hope that alleviates some of your concerns. Until then, I suggest keeping your skepticism, as you seem like a "show-me-the-proof" sort of person, and until we release the demo your concerns won't be addressed.
Again, I wish a smooth launch upon your team, and all the best.
People have to pay $500 to get to see the demo? seriously??? $500 to be able to play the demo?
So the reality is that only the most fanatical supporters will see it. I mean.. people who donate $500 to a game before they even see a demo.. that is pretty serious supporters. Congrats, you should try selling them some Kool Aid
Did I mention our game, and pretty much every game made in the past 5 years will have a free demo available on Steam before we even allow anyone to pre-order the game.
Seriously.. I really have to pay $500 to play your demo?
Not at all We've been regularly giving away demo passes to members of our community through raffles and other various contests. Donation of enough money to earn the champion badge merely guarantees you a spot in the demo. Because the demo is pre-alpha, we want to ensure that we are able to upgrade our server architecture as needed so that every player has the best experience possible.
While a demo may be common for single-player titles, most MMOs don't have a demo available in their early stages. Off-hand Xyson (not at release), Elder Scrolls Online, EverQuest Landmark, Wildstar, Deadbreed, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, and other various titles come to mind. Many of the titles had closed/open beta weekends, but as we're prealpha we're not at that point. It is something that you can expect in the future, though!
In addition, we will have coverage of the demo from the ToA team for those who do not have a demo-pass.
I hope this helps alleviate some of your concerns.
ah yeah.. you are right, you guys are exaclty like Wildstar and TESO. Exactly the same credibility.
Just to point out, none of those games you mentioned were begging for money for 10 years before making a game, and those games had gameplay and screenshots all over the place. From what I´ve heard, the ´roadmap´ to the demo has not moved in a long time. So you guys are going to be fundraising for a year or two just to get the demo out? I have a idea for a fundraiser.. you could do a ´donate a dollar a day starting now and you will have your $500 before the demo is released´.
The only news we ever hear from ToA is begging for money.
three devs who can´t code or model. I have a feeling this game is going to be in pre pre pre alpha for a long time.
Develop your game, get off your asses and learn a skill besides begging. There are free 3dsmax, Blender and C# courses all over the internet. Why don´t you learn something besides how to implement a paypal button on your website.
ah yeah.. you are right, you guys are exaclty like Wildstar and TESO. Exactly the same credibility.
Just to point out, none of those games you mentioned were begging for money for 10 years before making a game, and those games had gameplay and screenshots all over the place. From what I´ve heard, the ´roadmap´ to the demo has not moved in a long time. So you guys are going to be fundraising for a year or two just to get the demo out? I have a idea for a fundraiser.. you could do a ´donate a dollar a day starting now and you will have your $500 before the demo is released´.
The only news we ever hear from ToA is begging for money.
three devs who can´t code or model. I have a feeling this game is going to be in pre pre p itere alpha for a long time.
Develop your game, get off your asses and learn a skill besides begging. There are free 3dsmax, Blender and C# courses all over the internet. Why don´t you learn something besides how to implement a paypal button on your website.
The roadmap for the demo is actually moving weekly. We have a thread on our forums by one of our amazing community members that is keeping track of when the various bars are updated
Just a few weeks ago we released news of a raffle to give away some awesome prizes to our community members and participants which included physical swag, demo passes, and more. You can find the most up to date news about Trials of Ascension at our website here: http://trialsofascension.com/home/
I hope that helps with some of items you pointed out. We pride ourself on our communication, and I hope that is of use
Not at all We've been regularly giving away demo passes to members of our community through raffles and other various contests. Donation of enough money to earn the champion badge merely guarantees you a spot in the demo. Because the demo is pre-alpha, we want to ensure that we are able to upgrade our server architecture as needed so that every player has the best experience possible.
While a demo may be common for single-player titles, most MMOs don't have a demo available in their early stages. ...
What it says is "not ready". That's pretty much it.
There are some percentage guesstimates of how much of each component you have done.... based on what?
The reality is that even if you do get any kind of a demo out - even if it CTDs straight away you can simply say "the demo is pre-alpha!", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean?, and then ask for more time to fix it... and more money?
I guess it's not up to me to decide how others spend their money... but I agree with Azrile that the way Kickstarter has gone is now doing more harm than good to genuine developers.
Not at all We've been regularly giving away demo passes to members of our community through raffles and other various contests. Donation of enough money to earn the champion badge merely guarantees you a spot in the demo. Because the demo is pre-alpha, we want to ensure that we are able to upgrade our server architecture as needed so that every player has the best experience possible.
While a demo may be common for single-player titles, most MMOs don't have a demo available in their early stages. ...
What it says is "not ready". That's pretty much it.
There are some percentage guesstimates of how much of each component you have done.... based on what?
The reality is that even if you do get any kind of a demo out - even if it CTDs straight away you can simply say "the demo is pre-alpha!", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean?, and then ask for more time to fix it... and more money?
I guess it's not up to me to decide how others spend their money... but I agree with Azrile that the way Kickstarter has gone is now doing more harm than good to genuine developers.
My apologies, I believe I didn't clarify the demo vs. pre-alpha well. During our last KIckstarter we realized that video from an alpha and description isn't enough to be successful in the current crowdfunding market, because there is so much oversaturation. The demo is virtually a limited pre-alpha with the various systems noted in the roadmap finished (the roadmap percentages based off of completion of the task in the design document), which will then be distributed to our strongest supporters, various press outlets, as well as backers of the Kickstarter so that they don't need to wait two years for a playable game - which is a trend I have noticed (and experienced personally) in the crowdfunding community. So, in a nutshell, the demo is a "fully fleshout" version of various systems of ToA, so that players can make a better judgement about the title. The work in the demo directly translates to alpha, so I have a habit of calling it pre-alpha, as it comes before the alpha is released to our supporters
I agree that with the way Kickstarter has gone now, it is doing quite a bit of harm to genuine developers. There are many crowdfunding campaigns started which virtually only contain design notes and a bit of art, and they take away funds from developers who will actually develop a product. (Ironically, the first title I personally backed on Kickstarter ended up being this. Very disappointing, but you learn crowdfunding quickly.) We're developing the demo with the funds currently collected so that we are not one of those campaigns, and I thank our very supportive community for allowing us to do so.
I strongly agree with you that if someone isn't comfortable donating towards the demo of ToA, they shouldn't. Instead sign up for our newsletter or our forums. We appreciate every donation that we receive, but I don't want to give the impression that we all we are doing is distributing press to collect money - that isn't the case at all. In our actual press, you will note that we never are actually asking for donations. Our press serves as a way to update those who are curious about title, as well as those outside our community who are interested in the development. If they wish to donate, that's awesome, and I love them for it, but I'm not going to be cross with someone who doesn't support ToA or wish to donate. Everyone has their reasons, and there are some valid concerns. In time, I hope that we address the concerns with our demo, alpha, and onwards, but until then, one must make their own judgements
For me it just doesnt seem like you guys put much skin in the game. You guys are asking us to invest in an idea that has not be started. Thats not how crowdfunding works. First you put in 10k+. You cash in your 401k, you put out a mortgage on your house, you do whatever it takes to capture the essence of your game. This way we know you are invested in the game.This way when the project fails we all fail, not just the people who invested in the game. This makes you work harder to make a product we care to see.
This is also why we have kickstarter, that forces companies to put out a product or the money is refunded. They dont allow for companies to stiff the little guy. Since you guys have no skin in the game as well as not guaranteeing a product I dont see this game going anywhere.
Azrille has brought up some good points that I feel you havent covered what so ever. Take what he has said and improve on different videos you have. Make your image be seen, show the functions you can do in the game.
oh dear lord.. look at their cash-shop. Now remember, this is a game that currently has no character model ( using default from unity), there is no inventory system, there is no user interface, there is no combat. There are no creatures or NPCs in the world.
But in their cash-shop
1. You can buy crafting plans for a unique item like battle axe ($30). that doesn´t do much good when there are no creatures to kill and no combat in the game. In fact, the default Unity character doesn´t even allow you to hold it.
2. You can buy vanity pets for $10 for normal pets or $30 for dragon pets... Again, there are no creatures anywhere in their world, but you can pay $10 to have one next to you ( maybe $5 more and it won´t be invisible)
3. You can pay $8 to add a dance animation to your character - Too bad they can´t get the camera to work, so the only thing you will see is your character head bob. But then again, the Unity default character doesn´t dance anyway..so maybe the $8 will allow him to dream about dancing
4. For $7.50 you can name an NPC - oh right, there are no NPCs in the game.
5. For a whopping $200 you can name a landmark - of which none exist in the game... oh wait.. maybe I can name one of those trees that don´t move. I am going to name him ´leave´ get it??
6. And then you get the houses, which go from $65 down.
How in the world do you guys create a cash-shop full of items when the game is not even started? Seriously, a cash-shop before you even have a single NPC in the world?
Azrille has brought up some good points that I feel you havent covered what so ever. Take what he has said and improve on different videos you have. Make your image be seen, show the functions you can do in the game.
I agree with this statement. This is probably the most compelling thread I've read on this website. I feel like if significant work has been done on the game, then some sort of convincing prototype footage (or something comparable) should be released showing Azrille's fears are unfounded. Surely there is something, anything that could be released to completely prove him wrong? Not partially, but completely. If not, then I believe he is right...about almost everything he's said.
Consumers are left to fend for themselves when it comes to crowdfunding. If the product creators ask for money, then they should directly address this kind of issue. It's one thing for a dev to say they pride themselves in open communication with the audience, and another thing to directly address concerns not with words but convincing evidence.
iAzrille has brought up some good points that I feel you havent covered what so ever. Take what he has said and improve on different videos you have. Make your image be seen, show the functions you can do in the game.
I agree with this statement. This is probably the most compelling thread I've read on this website. I feel like if significant work has been done on the game, then some sort of convincing prototype footage (or something comparable) should be released showing Azrille's fears are unfounded. Surely there is something, anything that could be released to completely prove him wrong? Not partially, but completely. If not, then I believe he is right...about almost everything he's said.
Consumers are left to fend for themselves when it comes to crowdfunding. If the product creators ask for money, then they should directly address this kind of issue. It's one thing for a dev to say they pride themselves in open communication with the audience, and another thing to directly address concerns not with words but convincing evidence.
I completely agree. We have a weekly meeting (tomorrow night) where the different teams update on the progress of their portions of the demo. I assure you I will coordinate between the different teams and distribute some more assets to the media (which I'll then link here.) It may take a few weeks to have a well-put together video to demonstrate some of the various systems that are in development (I don't wish to release anything half-arsed), but rest assured the various highlights are coming in the future.
I understand that consumers are left to fend for themselves when it comes to crowdfunding; it is one of the reasons that I'm actively working to address some of the points made in this thread. (Yet address points in text only goes so far.)
The spawning demo, regardless of what has been said about it, was released to do just that. While it visually resembles the engine tool that he stated, it is far from it. If you watch the video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU1kz1WaGrbmMjsq22FS8TZQ&v=pznkuhH9r4s#t=109), you can see it is far from the tool, and allows us to create dynamic growth and migration patterns for different types of fauna and flora through the blue GM markers, which can be moved live.
Sorry been having a bit of fun tonight. But seriously.
1. Regarding the respawning nonsense - Your script must have a variable that dictates how fast the respawn is happening. Simply set it to a very fast speed and then run around the map with your character... The problem with your video, even if it is true, is that it is something anyone could easily EASILY do using the toolkit. And it was doubly suspicous that it only was shown from that overhead toolkit view, and not from the perspective of your little guy running around.
2. Logging in and combat - this is a huge issue for your team. Make sure they are developing combat off of the servers. In your demo, or whatever you decide to show, you really should show a the login screen and the account being logged into a server and then performing combat.
3. Proprietary artwork - MMOs require huge amount of creatures, terrain, buildings, weapons and armor etc. If you are a year into development, and you have nothing but 1 house and 1 creature. it is never going to make it. The artwork pipeline is the limiting reagent in any MMO, even games like WOW only add so many raids or dungeons because creating art assets is so slow.
4. Character animations - Most players don´t realize how many animations are needed for even a generic MMO´s main character. We were pushing 500 the last time I checked... and that is not crazy 50 different types of dances, those are animations needed to make your character do main functions that everyone expects in an MMO. You don´t need to have crazy animations, but you need to have walk/run/sprint turn animations from Idle for every 30 or 45 degrees. It depends on how fast you are going to allow your characters default speed to what angle you should use. If you have your guys walking most of the time, it should be 30, if the default speed is a jog, then you can get away with 45. Animations are a huge time-sink, especially when you get into having many different weapon types ( axe vs halberd) or styles ( 2 hand, vs 1 hand, vs sword and board vs duel wield) The animations really pile up when you allow 4 different weapon fighting styles along with dozens of different weapons, many of which will need different animations. Again, you are talking 500 animations, plus 8-20 per creature type. If after a year, you are still using the default Unity character which comes with 6 animations (I think) you are never going to make it.
5. GUI - Adding a user interface is basically the easiest type of scripting. If you can´t script enough to get the default Unity UI to show up, you are never going to make it because that is the easiest part of programming in Unity. Press C and your paperdoll comes up. Press B and your backpack opens, press M and the worldmap come up. Obviously also the UI for characters portrat with health and resource and a minimap. It is acceptable to tell people, ´this is our first run at UI graphics´.. but if you can´t even pull up a paperdoll or backpack, there is no way the game is going to make it. Combat and inventory scripting is 100x´s more complicated than scripting UI.
Back away from all this money-grabbing. Your game has a more insane cash-shop then a free-2-play asian grinder and you aren´t even in alpha yet.. All of you have day jobs? then stop spending money on the game and just develop it. Everything is free to do for almost everything you need to do. Unity-Free Blender or 3dMax - Free Gimp-Free and there really are tutorials for every part of what you need to do. If you don´t know how to do any of it, pick 1 and become good at it. Scripting, Modelling or Animations.. 3 main jobs, 3 devs, problem solved, draw straws to see who learns what. Repeat after me.. you do not need any money at all to develop your game until the last few months before launch. Sounds are trivial to add to the game and there are plenty of free resources out there. You can easily get music, ambient sounds and footsteps (vital). Our main scripting guy was in charge of audio and it took him no time at all to find everything we needed. The only thing we really did ourself was played around with modifying our own voices to sound like monsters. There is a free program called audacity or something like that that makes making creature sounds fun and quick. Use your own voices, or modify real animals you can find for free.
Your method of fundraising and outsourcing is never going to work. The devs who have the game in their heads are the ones who need to do the majority of the work or else you are going to spend more time ´telling´ the contractors what you want than if you had learned 3dsmax and done it yourself. From what I saw, the house is the perfect example. You spent money, fought with the artist, and ended up with 1 house that isn´t high enough quality to use in a real MMO. When you do get to the end and you need artwork, you should already have your own models in the game so the contractors can see your style and specs. And unless you do it yourself, you are going to run out of money very fast on models and animations. They are much more expensive then people think.
but meh, def ears and all that. I am still 50-50 on whether you guys are just con artists outright, or if you actually believe you could fundraise+outsource your way to a MMO. But either way, the game is never getting made. The only chance you have to make an MMO is like I said, stop looking like con artists with all this fundraising and cash-shop garbage, take a few weeks and each of you learn one part of game building, and then keep your mouths shut for a year and build out a playable basic MMO, and then come back to us when that is done and you start building up some of the unique things. Building out the basic parts of an MMO will quickly open up your eyes to the silliness of ´playable dragons´ and all that stuff.
Until you have built out the basics of an MMO, you just do not understand how impossible some of the things you are talking about are.
1. You can buy crafting plans for a unique item like battle axe ($30). ...
2. You can buy vanity pets for $10 for normal pets or $30 for dragon pets... ...
...
How in the world do you guys create a cash-shop full of items when the game is not even started? Seriously, a cash-shop before you even have a single NPC in the world?
This is the first thing you have said that I disagree with Azrile.
Then again you make the same mistake MMORPG made too
It's NOT a SHOP.
Why?
Read at the bottom:
All purchases are considered non-tax deductible donations. See our Backer's Agreement for details.
The Merchandise section holds all real world physical items. All other purchases are for in-game items.
In a shop - you can get your money back if you do not get the item you purchased. These guys have been careful to say "You cannot get your money back - this is a speculative donation."
Now - I hope MMORPG.com are watching this thread. Because it highlights a problem this site has had for a while now (if you search my post history you will find i have mentioned it many times):
When is it a game?
A few years ago it took a team and considerable talent to even start making an MMO.
But now there are developer tools available for free (like Unity), you don't need to be a programmer to make a web page etc etc. Anyone can make a game.
Just last week I brought the "RPG maker Humble Bundle" myself ( http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/ ) for $12. I already have a game outline, a setting, several pages of plot and dialogue done. Weee! I'm a developer.
And this is what we are seeing now - more and more people with concepts (some of them quite good concepts too) but when does it go from being a concept to an actual game?
MMORPG.com - you need to draw the line.
Because if some concepts (unproven), a web page and a cash shop are enough for you then I can be a developer too.
This is the first thing you have said that I disagree with Azrile.
Then again you make the same mistake MMORPG made too
It's NOT a SHOP.
Why?
Read at the bottom:
All purchases are considered non-tax deductible donations. See our Backer's Agreement for details.
The Merchandise section holds all real world physical items. All other purchases are for in-game items.
In a shop - you can get your money back if you do not get the item you purchased. These guys have been careful to say "You cannot get your money back - this is a speculative donation."
Now - I hope MMORPG.com are watching this thread. Because it highlights a problem this site has had for a while now (if you search my post history you will find i have mentioned it many times):
When is it a game?
A few years ago it took a team and considerable talent to even start making an MMO.
But now there are developer tools available for free (like Unity), you don't need to be a programmer to make a web page etc etc. Anyone can make a game.
Just last week I brought the "RPG maker Humble Bundle" myself ( http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/ ) for $12. I already have a game outline, a setting, several pages of plot and dialogue done. Weee! I'm a developer.
And this is what we are seeing now - more and more people with concepts (some of them quite good concepts too) but when does it go from being a concept to an actual game?
MMORPG.com - you need to draw the line.
Because if some concepts (unproven), a web page and a cash shop are enough for you then I can be a developer too.
Yeah, I saw that backers agreement also. it is amazing, they spent more time drafting their legal ´out´ and disclaimer then they actually spent making a game.
You are right about Unity and easily-accessible game engines. It is the reason I wrote that there is no such thing as vaporware anymore because even if you are just outright, in your face, trying to scam, you can get the basics of a game done in a few days.
I called ToA ´rotware´.... because we will all be rotting before the game ever gets released. But hey, if a default unity character running around in a default unity world is a ´game´ then technically ToA is a game and not vaporware.
Whoa, Azrile you are a real charmer aint ya. You know it is very easy to bash someone elses designs and call it "rotware" and other names but it seems to me that you are not very proffessional, if you are indeed another game developer. So far you have not convinced me of anything. A developer that is in pre-alpha stage doesn't need to provide you with a working prototype of their game. Since when did this become the industry "standard"? A game developer can work to their own schedule and release information when and to whom they wish. I have been following ToA for some time and I find them to be some of the best developers in the industry based on their designs and their interaction with their fan base.
I also see nothing wrong with their methods for raising capital and it really is none of your business how or what they use to do so. You mention that your game is already fully funded, that is a very nice position to be in. However, it doesn't give you the right to downplay or knock the methods others who are not in your position to raise their capital. Forged Chaos is trying to raise awareness in the gaming community and invite them to follow their game. They are not trying to "sell" it to anyone. In fact they are encouraging you not to spend money on it if you don't feel comfortable. Does this sound like a very good method for scamming people out of money? Who would their target audience be? A bunch of teen aged kids on fixed allowances? Come on man!
And you are who to judge who is a developer or not? By the way, are you afraid they may just have something that might compete better than your own project? It seems like you are pretty adamant about knocking these guys with a bunch of claims with no merit. How do you know what they have or have not accomplished? Are you privy to more information than the rest of us? Admittedly you agreed with me that developers do not have to show anything to anyone they do not wish to. Could it be that they are just not ready to show their progress to keep the competition wondering or believing they are no threat? This has never been done before has it?? I don't suppose you are willing to show us all of the progress that your team has made now are you?
Your data is wrong, I am afraid, Azrile. It takes less than a minute to pop on over to the ToA website and see the work they have done on the game. There have been posts that have given you answers and corrections but they appeared to be ignored.
You seem to be very, very passionate, and even someone who isn't involved with either side can see this. Not having a level head hurts your credibility and just makes you look a little odd.
Azrile, you claim to be a game developer. What is your game that you have been advertising this entire time? You hasn't given us a name or a website or any other credentials. If its on Steam Greenlight, surely it must be popular and have a name, or at the very least, a link to see it?
Azrile, you claim to be a game developer. What is your game that you have been advertising this entire time? You hasn't given us a name or a website or any other credentials. If its on Steam Greenlight, surely it must be popular and have a name, or at the very least, a link to see it?
In one post you guys say I am only here to promote my own game, and then you keep asking me questions about it. You guys try to report me for advertising my game, then you come back and ask me for a link to it on Steam?
Let us just discuss the fundraising and development of the game of which this news article discusses. I originally only mentioned my game to show that I have used Unity extensively, and then switched to HE. But none of that matters because anyone can go onto Youtube and search for Unity tutorials and see just how simple it is to do what the devs have done already.
And then we get back to the $50,000 I have now heard that there are 5 devs working on your game, for a year. With $50,000 of donated money.
Why is it that this kid was able to use Unity for 2 hours and put more content into his video for free, then 5 adult devs with 50,000 and a year.
This is not trolling, these are legitimate question to ask of a game that is asking for money to be donated to them with a huge disclaimer that says the game never has to be made and the money won´t be returned.
Azrile, I really can't tell if you are being intentionally dishonest or if you're genuinely mistaken but in either case it's obvious you're passionate about this topic so I thought I'd clarify a few things and remove a few of the misconceptions you seem to have:
First and foremost, Forged Chaos/Shadowpool Studios never collected a single cent from their supporters until January of this year with the start of the 'Light the Forge' campaign after several dozen forum members expressed, with unbridled enthusiasm, that giving donations was something they wanted an option to do. At that time the switch to Unity was made and the project essentially began anew and the developers have been working fervently on bringing their product to life since then.
As for your claim that there are no assets beyond the default Unity bits and no additional work has been done; perhaps you got this impression because you aren't an actual follower of Trials of Ascension and simply reacted to the press release and gave a cursory investigation to the more obvious bits on the website such as the media section. I, and many of the others defending ToA, know this is not true as we are updated every week via social networking outlets, a newsletter, chat sessions, general announcements on the forums and, of course, the Backer's Forum. It should be noted that even if you haven't backed but decide to stop by the ToA forums you can take a peek at the thread titles within the Backer's Forum and you'll see that for nearly every week of every month since the switch to Unity there has been a progress report and showcase of items such as animations, the user interface, renders of craftable items, the inventory system, icon quality, character models, dynamic spawning, networked combat, house placement, the playable Raknar beast race and much more.
I hope this sheds a little bit of light on the issue and you can see that perhaps it would be best to reserve judgement on a project you clearly haven't taken the time to learn about before starting multiple threads defaming the studio that's working on it. So far in this thread I've seen accusations of fraud both in past and present that are completely unfounded as well as misinformation about features based solely on conjecture derived from 15 seconds of a video. I hope as a game developer you can see how this may reflect poorly on yourself and the studio you represent when anyone who is interested can easily fact check these claims and find them utterly lacking and will temper your outrage in light of this information. At the very least I hope we can end this discussion civilly and with our opinions a bit more informed.
Good luck to you and your team, and congratulations on the news about Steam Greenlight!
Comments
Why do you think it is not fair to copy and paste the message that the lead dev used 8 years ago?
I did not write that post, that is what he wrote the last time they suddenly cancelled the project. The three main people working on the project now, are the three main people who worked on the project before. They hyped up their game for a couple years, collected money from people who believed in their ´vision´, and then one day they posted this and disappeared. Now consider the fact they say they need almost a million dollars in that post, then they do a kickstarter last year with a goal of nearly a million dollars, which fails.. and now they have only raised $50k. If they think it takes a million to make their game, and they have 50k, don´t you think there is a good chance that the same message will come again?
That is HIS words, not mine.
Also, to the dev who posted here about dynamic spawning. Explain this to me. Why is it that the ´dynamic spawning´ only is happening from the large overhead position like the toolkit. Why is it that when you later play your actual character, it isn´t happening. When the character is being played, they show the 4 sizes of trees, and they show the guy running around the large trees. But nothing is growing. Like I said, the dynamic spawning and ´growing´ they are doing is only in the toolkit, not in the game.
and please please give us a date for your demo so we can all be proven wrong. 2016?
On behalf of the Trials of Ascension team, we would like to wish you and your team the best on your game. Congratulations on the Steam Greenlight achievement, and we hope that you have a successful early release.
Our dynamic spawning technology allows us to control the speed that the spawning happens, as well as the growth rate. For the 15 seconds that we showed the in-character walkthrough, the spawning isn't occurring at the rapid visible rate because it was turned to actual gameplay speeds. I understand that you are skeptical about the technology, and you have a right to be so. With the number of MMOs that are seeking crowd funding, trying to distinguish between what is real vs. what is vaporware is an active challenge, and we are actively updating our backers on our progress to ensure that we have an open line of communication, and they can see what we are working on day-to-day.
There is no set ETA for the demo. All I can state is that it will be released to those with a demo pass when the roadmap that Brax posted earlier is completed.
I appreciate your skepticism Azrile, as it highlights some concerns that prospective supporters of Trials of Ascension may have. In the future we will address these concerns, and I hope that alleviates some of your concerns. Until then, I suggest keeping your skepticism, as you seem like a "show-me-the-proof" sort of person, and until we release the demo your concerns won't be addressed.
Again, I wish a smooth launch upon your team, and all the best.
-Xanward Songsteel
People have to pay $500 to get to see the demo? seriously??? $500 to be able to play the demo?
So the reality is that only the most fanatical supporters will see it. I mean.. people who donate $500 to a game before they even see a demo.. that is pretty serious supporters. Congrats, you should try selling them some Kool Aid
Did I mention our game, and pretty much every game made in the past 5 years will have a free demo available on Steam before we even allow anyone to pre-order the game.
Seriously.. I really have to pay $500 to play your demo?
Not at all
We've been regularly giving away demo passes to members of our community through raffles and other various contests. Donation of enough money to earn the champion badge merely guarantees you a spot in the demo. Because the demo is pre-alpha, we want to ensure that we are able to upgrade our server architecture as needed so that every player has the best experience possible.
While a demo may be common for single-player titles, most MMOs don't have a demo available in their early stages. Off-hand Xyson (not at release), Elder Scrolls Online, EverQuest Landmark, Wildstar, Deadbreed, Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, and other various titles come to mind. Many of the titles had closed/open beta weekends, but as we're prealpha we're not at that point. It is something that you can expect in the future, though!
In addition, we will have coverage of the demo from the ToA team for those who do not have a demo-pass.
I hope this helps alleviate some of your concerns.
-Xanward Songsteel
ah yeah.. you are right, you guys are exaclty like Wildstar and TESO. Exactly the same credibility.
Just to point out, none of those games you mentioned were begging for money for 10 years before making a game, and those games had gameplay and screenshots all over the place. From what I´ve heard, the ´roadmap´ to the demo has not moved in a long time. So you guys are going to be fundraising for a year or two just to get the demo out? I have a idea for a fundraiser.. you could do a ´donate a dollar a day starting now and you will have your $500 before the demo is released´.
The only news we ever hear from ToA is begging for money.
three devs who can´t code or model. I have a feeling this game is going to be in pre pre pre alpha for a long time.
Develop your game, get off your asses and learn a skill besides begging. There are free 3dsmax, Blender and C# courses all over the internet. Why don´t you learn something besides how to implement a paypal button on your website.
The roadmap for the demo is actually moving weekly. We have a thread on our forums by one of our amazing community members that is keeping track of when the various bars are updated
Just a few weeks ago we released news of a raffle to give away some awesome prizes to our community members and participants which included physical swag, demo passes, and more. You can find the most up to date news about Trials of Ascension at our website here: http://trialsofascension.com/home/
I hope that helps with some of items you pointed out. We pride ourself on our communication, and I hope that is of use
And there's your 'out', huh?
I followed your link to here:
http://trialsofascension.com/roadmap
What it says is "not ready". That's pretty much it.
There are some percentage guesstimates of how much of each component you have done.... based on what?
The reality is that even if you do get any kind of a demo out - even if it CTDs straight away you can simply say "the demo is pre-alpha!", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean?, and then ask for more time to fix it... and more money?
I guess it's not up to me to decide how others spend their money... but I agree with Azrile that the way Kickstarter has gone is now doing more harm than good to genuine developers.
EDIT: and BTW "Need to get ahold of us?" doesn't work http://www.forgedchaos.com/#contact-form
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
My apologies, I believe I didn't clarify the demo vs. pre-alpha well. During our last KIckstarter we realized that video from an alpha and description isn't enough to be successful in the current crowdfunding market, because there is so much oversaturation. The demo is virtually a limited pre-alpha with the various systems noted in the roadmap finished (the roadmap percentages based off of completion of the task in the design document), which will then be distributed to our strongest supporters, various press outlets, as well as backers of the Kickstarter so that they don't need to wait two years for a playable game - which is a trend I have noticed (and experienced personally) in the crowdfunding community. So, in a nutshell, the demo is a "fully fleshout" version of various systems of ToA, so that players can make a better judgement about the title. The work in the demo directly translates to alpha, so I have a habit of calling it pre-alpha, as it comes before the alpha is released to our supporters
I agree that with the way Kickstarter has gone now, it is doing quite a bit of harm to genuine developers. There are many crowdfunding campaigns started which virtually only contain design notes and a bit of art, and they take away funds from developers who will actually develop a product. (Ironically, the first title I personally backed on Kickstarter ended up being this. Very disappointing, but you learn crowdfunding quickly.) We're developing the demo with the funds currently collected so that we are not one of those campaigns, and I thank our very supportive community for allowing us to do so.
I strongly agree with you that if someone isn't comfortable donating towards the demo of ToA, they shouldn't. Instead sign up for our newsletter or our forums. We appreciate every donation that we receive, but I don't want to give the impression that we all we are doing is distributing press to collect money - that isn't the case at all. In our actual press, you will note that we never are actually asking for donations. Our press serves as a way to update those who are curious about title, as well as those outside our community who are interested in the development. If they wish to donate, that's awesome, and I love them for it, but I'm not going to be cross with someone who doesn't support ToA or wish to donate. Everyone has their reasons, and there are some valid concerns. In time, I hope that we address the concerns with our demo, alpha, and onwards, but until then, one must make their own judgements
For me it just doesnt seem like you guys put much skin in the game. You guys are asking us to invest in an idea that has not be started. Thats not how crowdfunding works. First you put in 10k+. You cash in your 401k, you put out a mortgage on your house, you do whatever it takes to capture the essence of your game. This way we know you are invested in the game.This way when the project fails we all fail, not just the people who invested in the game. This makes you work harder to make a product we care to see.
This is also why we have kickstarter, that forces companies to put out a product or the money is refunded. They dont allow for companies to stiff the little guy. Since you guys have no skin in the game as well as not guaranteeing a product I dont see this game going anywhere.
Azrille has brought up some good points that I feel you havent covered what so ever. Take what he has said and improve on different videos you have. Make your image be seen, show the functions you can do in the game.
oh dear lord.. look at their cash-shop. Now remember, this is a game that currently has no character model ( using default from unity), there is no inventory system, there is no user interface, there is no combat. There are no creatures or NPCs in the world.
But in their cash-shop
1. You can buy crafting plans for a unique item like battle axe ($30). that doesn´t do much good when there are no creatures to kill and no combat in the game. In fact, the default Unity character doesn´t even allow you to hold it.
2. You can buy vanity pets for $10 for normal pets or $30 for dragon pets... Again, there are no creatures anywhere in their world, but you can pay $10 to have one next to you ( maybe $5 more and it won´t be invisible)
3. You can pay $8 to add a dance animation to your character - Too bad they can´t get the camera to work, so the only thing you will see is your character head bob. But then again, the Unity default character doesn´t dance anyway..so maybe the $8 will allow him to dream about dancing
4. For $7.50 you can name an NPC - oh right, there are no NPCs in the game.
5. For a whopping $200 you can name a landmark - of which none exist in the game... oh wait.. maybe I can name one of those trees that don´t move. I am going to name him ´leave´ get it??
6. And then you get the houses, which go from $65 down.
How in the world do you guys create a cash-shop full of items when the game is not even started? Seriously, a cash-shop before you even have a single NPC in the world?
I agree with this statement. This is probably the most compelling thread I've read on this website. I feel like if significant work has been done on the game, then some sort of convincing prototype footage (or something comparable) should be released showing Azrille's fears are unfounded. Surely there is something, anything that could be released to completely prove him wrong? Not partially, but completely. If not, then I believe he is right...about almost everything he's said.
Consumers are left to fend for themselves when it comes to crowdfunding. If the product creators ask for money, then they should directly address this kind of issue. It's one thing for a dev to say they pride themselves in open communication with the audience, and another thing to directly address concerns not with words but convincing evidence.
I completely agree. We have a weekly meeting (tomorrow night) where the different teams update on the progress of their portions of the demo. I assure you I will coordinate between the different teams and distribute some more assets to the media (which I'll then link here.) It may take a few weeks to have a well-put together video to demonstrate some of the various systems that are in development (I don't wish to release anything half-arsed), but rest assured the various highlights are coming in the future.
I understand that consumers are left to fend for themselves when it comes to crowdfunding; it is one of the reasons that I'm actively working to address some of the points made in this thread. (Yet address points in text only goes so far.)
The spawning demo, regardless of what has been said about it, was released to do just that. While it visually resembles the engine tool that he stated, it is far from it. If you watch the video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU1kz1WaGrbmMjsq22FS8TZQ&v=pznkuhH9r4s#t=109), you can see it is far from the tool, and allows us to create dynamic growth and migration patterns for different types of fauna and flora through the blue GM markers, which can be moved live.
Sorry been having a bit of fun tonight. But seriously.
1. Regarding the respawning nonsense - Your script must have a variable that dictates how fast the respawn is happening. Simply set it to a very fast speed and then run around the map with your character... The problem with your video, even if it is true, is that it is something anyone could easily EASILY do using the toolkit. And it was doubly suspicous that it only was shown from that overhead toolkit view, and not from the perspective of your little guy running around.
2. Logging in and combat - this is a huge issue for your team. Make sure they are developing combat off of the servers. In your demo, or whatever you decide to show, you really should show a the login screen and the account being logged into a server and then performing combat.
3. Proprietary artwork - MMOs require huge amount of creatures, terrain, buildings, weapons and armor etc. If you are a year into development, and you have nothing but 1 house and 1 creature. it is never going to make it. The artwork pipeline is the limiting reagent in any MMO, even games like WOW only add so many raids or dungeons because creating art assets is so slow.
4. Character animations - Most players don´t realize how many animations are needed for even a generic MMO´s main character. We were pushing 500 the last time I checked... and that is not crazy 50 different types of dances, those are animations needed to make your character do main functions that everyone expects in an MMO. You don´t need to have crazy animations, but you need to have walk/run/sprint turn animations from Idle for every 30 or 45 degrees. It depends on how fast you are going to allow your characters default speed to what angle you should use. If you have your guys walking most of the time, it should be 30, if the default speed is a jog, then you can get away with 45. Animations are a huge time-sink, especially when you get into having many different weapon types ( axe vs halberd) or styles ( 2 hand, vs 1 hand, vs sword and board vs duel wield) The animations really pile up when you allow 4 different weapon fighting styles along with dozens of different weapons, many of which will need different animations. Again, you are talking 500 animations, plus 8-20 per creature type. If after a year, you are still using the default Unity character which comes with 6 animations (I think) you are never going to make it.
5. GUI - Adding a user interface is basically the easiest type of scripting. If you can´t script enough to get the default Unity UI to show up, you are never going to make it because that is the easiest part of programming in Unity. Press C and your paperdoll comes up. Press B and your backpack opens, press M and the worldmap come up. Obviously also the UI for characters portrat with health and resource and a minimap. It is acceptable to tell people, ´this is our first run at UI graphics´.. but if you can´t even pull up a paperdoll or backpack, there is no way the game is going to make it. Combat and inventory scripting is 100x´s more complicated than scripting UI.
Back away from all this money-grabbing. Your game has a more insane cash-shop then a free-2-play asian grinder and you aren´t even in alpha yet.. All of you have day jobs? then stop spending money on the game and just develop it. Everything is free to do for almost everything you need to do. Unity-Free Blender or 3dMax - Free Gimp-Free and there really are tutorials for every part of what you need to do. If you don´t know how to do any of it, pick 1 and become good at it. Scripting, Modelling or Animations.. 3 main jobs, 3 devs, problem solved, draw straws to see who learns what. Repeat after me.. you do not need any money at all to develop your game until the last few months before launch. Sounds are trivial to add to the game and there are plenty of free resources out there. You can easily get music, ambient sounds and footsteps (vital). Our main scripting guy was in charge of audio and it took him no time at all to find everything we needed. The only thing we really did ourself was played around with modifying our own voices to sound like monsters. There is a free program called audacity or something like that that makes making creature sounds fun and quick. Use your own voices, or modify real animals you can find for free.
Your method of fundraising and outsourcing is never going to work. The devs who have the game in their heads are the ones who need to do the majority of the work or else you are going to spend more time ´telling´ the contractors what you want than if you had learned 3dsmax and done it yourself. From what I saw, the house is the perfect example. You spent money, fought with the artist, and ended up with 1 house that isn´t high enough quality to use in a real MMO. When you do get to the end and you need artwork, you should already have your own models in the game so the contractors can see your style and specs. And unless you do it yourself, you are going to run out of money very fast on models and animations. They are much more expensive then people think.
but meh, def ears and all that. I am still 50-50 on whether you guys are just con artists outright, or if you actually believe you could fundraise+outsource your way to a MMO. But either way, the game is never getting made. The only chance you have to make an MMO is like I said, stop looking like con artists with all this fundraising and cash-shop garbage, take a few weeks and each of you learn one part of game building, and then keep your mouths shut for a year and build out a playable basic MMO, and then come back to us when that is done and you start building up some of the unique things. Building out the basic parts of an MMO will quickly open up your eyes to the silliness of ´playable dragons´ and all that stuff.
Until you have built out the basics of an MMO, you just do not understand how impossible some of the things you are talking about are.
This is the first thing you have said that I disagree with Azrile.
Then again you make the same mistake MMORPG made too
It's NOT a SHOP.
Why?
Read at the bottom:
All purchases are considered non-tax deductible donations. See our Backer's Agreement for details.
The Merchandise section holds all real world physical items. All other purchases are for in-game items.
In a shop - you can get your money back if you do not get the item you purchased. These guys have been careful to say "You cannot get your money back - this is a speculative donation."
Now - I hope MMORPG.com are watching this thread. Because it highlights a problem this site has had for a while now (if you search my post history you will find i have mentioned it many times):
When is it a game?
A few years ago it took a team and considerable talent to even start making an MMO.
But now there are developer tools available for free (like Unity), you don't need to be a programmer to make a web page etc etc. Anyone can make a game.
Just last week I brought the "RPG maker Humble Bundle" myself ( http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/ ) for $12. I already have a game outline, a setting, several pages of plot and dialogue done. Weee! I'm a developer.
And this is what we are seeing now - more and more people with concepts (some of them quite good concepts too) but when does it go from being a concept to an actual game?
MMORPG.com - you need to draw the line.
Because if some concepts (unproven), a web page and a cash shop are enough for you then I can be a developer too.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Yeah, I saw that backers agreement also. it is amazing, they spent more time drafting their legal ´out´ and disclaimer then they actually spent making a game.
You are right about Unity and easily-accessible game engines. It is the reason I wrote that there is no such thing as vaporware anymore because even if you are just outright, in your face, trying to scam, you can get the basics of a game done in a few days.
I called ToA ´rotware´.... because we will all be rotting before the game ever gets released. But hey, if a default unity character running around in a default unity world is a ´game´ then technically ToA is a game and not vaporware.
Whoa, Azrile you are a real charmer aint ya. You know it is very easy to bash someone elses designs and call it "rotware" and other names but it seems to me that you are not very proffessional, if you are indeed another game developer. So far you have not convinced me of anything. A developer that is in pre-alpha stage doesn't need to provide you with a working prototype of their game. Since when did this become the industry "standard"? A game developer can work to their own schedule and release information when and to whom they wish. I have been following ToA for some time and I find them to be some of the best developers in the industry based on their designs and their interaction with their fan base.
I also see nothing wrong with their methods for raising capital and it really is none of your business how or what they use to do so. You mention that your game is already fully funded, that is a very nice position to be in. However, it doesn't give you the right to downplay or knock the methods others who are not in your position to raise their capital. Forged Chaos is trying to raise awareness in the gaming community and invite them to follow their game. They are not trying to "sell" it to anyone. In fact they are encouraging you not to spend money on it if you don't feel comfortable. Does this sound like a very good method for scamming people out of money? Who would their target audience be? A bunch of teen aged kids on fixed allowances? Come on man!
Your data is wrong, I am afraid, Azrile. It takes less than a minute to pop on over to the ToA website and see the work they have done on the game. There have been posts that have given you answers and corrections but they appeared to be ignored.
You seem to be very, very passionate, and even someone who isn't involved with either side can see this. Not having a level head hurts your credibility and just makes you look a little odd.
Azrile, you claim to be a game developer. What is your game that you have been advertising this entire time? You hasn't given us a name or a website or any other credentials. If its on Steam Greenlight, surely it must be popular and have a name, or at the very least, a link to see it?
In one post you guys say I am only here to promote my own game, and then you keep asking me questions about it. You guys try to report me for advertising my game, then you come back and ask me for a link to it on Steam?
Let us just discuss the fundraising and development of the game of which this news article discusses. I originally only mentioned my game to show that I have used Unity extensively, and then switched to HE. But none of that matters because anyone can go onto Youtube and search for Unity tutorials and see just how simple it is to do what the devs have done already.
And then we get back to the $50,000 I have now heard that there are 5 devs working on your game, for a year. With $50,000 of donated money.
Why is it that this kid was able to use Unity for 2 hours and put more content into his video for free, then 5 adult devs with 50,000 and a year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vQTUU61SMk#t=217
This is not trolling, these are legitimate question to ask of a game that is asking for money to be donated to them with a huge disclaimer that says the game never has to be made and the money won´t be returned.
5 devs, 1 year, $50,000 vs 1 kid, 2 hours, free
Azrile, I really can't tell if you are being intentionally dishonest or if you're genuinely mistaken but in either case it's obvious you're passionate about this topic so I thought I'd clarify a few things and remove a few of the misconceptions you seem to have:
First and foremost, Forged Chaos/Shadowpool Studios never collected a single cent from their supporters until January of this year with the start of the 'Light the Forge' campaign after several dozen forum members expressed, with unbridled enthusiasm, that giving donations was something they wanted an option to do. At that time the switch to Unity was made and the project essentially began anew and the developers have been working fervently on bringing their product to life since then.
As for your claim that there are no assets beyond the default Unity bits and no additional work has been done; perhaps you got this impression because you aren't an actual follower of Trials of Ascension and simply reacted to the press release and gave a cursory investigation to the more obvious bits on the website such as the media section. I, and many of the others defending ToA, know this is not true as we are updated every week via social networking outlets, a newsletter, chat sessions, general announcements on the forums and, of course, the Backer's Forum. It should be noted that even if you haven't backed but decide to stop by the ToA forums you can take a peek at the thread titles within the Backer's Forum and you'll see that for nearly every week of every month since the switch to Unity there has been a progress report and showcase of items such as animations, the user interface, renders of craftable items, the inventory system, icon quality, character models, dynamic spawning, networked combat, house placement, the playable Raknar beast race and much more.
I hope this sheds a little bit of light on the issue and you can see that perhaps it would be best to reserve judgement on a project you clearly haven't taken the time to learn about before starting multiple threads defaming the studio that's working on it. So far in this thread I've seen accusations of fraud both in past and present that are completely unfounded as well as misinformation about features based solely on conjecture derived from 15 seconds of a video. I hope as a game developer you can see how this may reflect poorly on yourself and the studio you represent when anyone who is interested can easily fact check these claims and find them utterly lacking and will temper your outrage in light of this information. At the very least I hope we can end this discussion civilly and with our opinions a bit more informed.
Good luck to you and your team, and congratulations on the news about Steam Greenlight!