Would you play a game where you can never be the best?

TheQuietGamer · July 2014

Here is the scenario: -

Lets say for example you have arrived on a planet where the local humanoids are more suited to the environment. You can do everything an mmo would normally offer but you will never be 'the' hero. You can assist in the general waxing and waning of the planet's occupants, but you will not be the 'one'.

The fact is the locals are more adept and competent than you. On occasion they might help you. You may be struggling with that boss and out of no-where one of the aliens will arrive and kill the shit out of him/her/it.

Now this is not vastly different than having npc's who are ten levels higher than you in the likes of WOW, it is just a little more honest and interesting in my point of view.

I am specifically talking about a Sci-fi mmo where you are thrown onto a foreign planet and the locals are better adapted than you.

Please share your thoughts.

Note: Please remember this is just for fun, it is not an important poll, the results do not really matter.

xeniar · July 2014

you are indeed wasting time.

in oldskool MMO's there where no hero's Everyone was what he or she showed ingame. There was no story apart from what u made of it.

The whole hero thing is bullshit in an MMO

TheQuietGamer · July 2014

Originally posted by xeniar
you are indeed wasting time.

in oldskool MMO's there where no hero's Everyone was what he or she showed ingame. There was no story apart from what u made of it.

The whole hero thing is bullshit in an MMO

Not sure that you read the scenario...

prowess · July 2014

One method of telling an epic story is the "Heroic" method, in which there is a hero and a fantastic tale... Another method is the "Realistic" method, which involves many more mundane aspects and really allows people to be people. The focus is not necessarily on the protagonist and the protagonist will be flawed and very much human.. The antagonist(s) are not the prototypical evil and there's an emphasis on the moral struggles of both protagonistic and antagonistic characters. The term "Realism" in the literary sense does not necessitate the content; a Realistic story can have wizards and dragons. The focus is less about the storyarc: the world being saved or scorned; the story is more about struggle, conflict, growth.. There is not always a resolution in a Realism; you're given a sense that the scope of the world is much larger than you can affect alone.

A Realistic storyline is MUCH more fitting to an MMORPG than a Heroic story could ever be. The one thing that made me hate ESO was everyone lining up for their turn to save the queen and be the hero... An insult to my intelligence. Asheron's Call had a fantastic Realistic storyline for the player characters while maintaining a Heroic storyline that players could be a part of, fighting alongside the hero Asheron or the villain Bael'Zharon.

DamonVile · July 2014

I don't love the idea of an npc being the hero but I also don't mind not being the solo hero. I'd find it rather anti climactic if an NPC saves the day or kills the final boss after you weaken it.

I'm not really opposed to a world where there is no need for a solo hero to save the universe either.

Datawarlock · July 2014

I'm all for the non-hero type MMO. Too many no-child-left-behind-hand-holding-participation-trophy games out there now. Market is saturated with this crap, which I'm pretty sure has psychologically affected most gamers away from PvP these days. If you get your ass handed to you all night long, you don't feel like the hero, thus you no longer feel special.... even when you're THE hero, next to a million other 'THE heroes'. People are dumb, so games are dumbed down for them, and now we have a whole genre of special ed mmo's for us all to play.

TheQuietGamer · July 2014

Originally posted by DamonVile
I don't love the idea of an npc being the hero but I also don't mind not being the solo hero. I'd find it rather anti climactic if an NPC saves the day or kills the final boss after you weaken it.

I'm not really opposed to a world where there is no need for a solo hero to save the universe either.

I was gonna respond to the comment above, but this was the last one I read. Imagine for a moment that you have been in cryo-stasis, enforced coma, a water bath to prevent g forces killing you- whatever. Your ship is realistic technology, a solar sail or something that travels a long way (yes I know this cannot happen in reality, but within the realms of realistic sci-fi, imagine it has).

You arrive on a goldilocks planet and find that it is already occupied by humanoids more adapted to their environment. They are simply more adept than you.

Fortunately they are friendly and they assist you in setting up camps, they even protect you against the local wildlife.

But you need to return the favour. For example, you can snipe while they kick the shit out of stuff cause they are driven by proving their melee abilities.

You need to prove your worth to be recognised by them. You can pilot ships and destroy locations from orbit, or snipe or one way or another rely on technology. They control technology closely cause in the past it resulted in some planet shattering event, qand they feel you prove yourself by physical prowess.

That is the set up, I could enjoy that...

sunandshadow · July 2014

Gameplay-wise it wouldn't bother me so much, but story-wise the implication that I'm never going to be equal to the best would make the world unattractive to me. That's like you're telling me "here's a life you can never win at". My real life already smacks me in the face with the fact that I'll never come close to winning at it at least once a week. Why would I sign up for more such poor treatment by a virtual world?

zzax · July 2014

Such game already exist, EVE Online. Its zerg based game where one player means nothing.

TheQuietGamer · July 2014

Originally posted by zzax
Such game already exist, EVE Online. Its zerg based game where one player means nothing.

Not sure that Eve Online was what I was aiming for. A bit too elitest and gank orientated.

Datawarlock · July 2014

Originally posted by zzax
Such game already exist, EVE Online. Its zerg based game where one player means nothing.

Which is just how we'd expect a safezone pve noob to look at it. In reality, every player can mean the difference between winning and losing. In your analogy, a pawn in chess means nothing, as most people just tend to use them as throw away pieces, but really, they're just as powerful and necessary as the rest of the pieces. This is why games are stupefied. Today's children can't handle critical thinking or challenge. But by all means, keep to your million one and only heroes.

I like the OPs idea. I've grown tired of being the Rambo of video games, carrying 20 weapons, and soloing my way to the top.... only to see the rest of you there, on the same level top, meaning "You are NOT the best".

TheQuietGamer · July 2014

Originally posted by Datawarlock
Originally posted by zzax
Such game already exist, EVE Online. Its zerg based game where one player means nothing.

Which is just how we'd expect a safezone pve noob to look at it. In reality, every player can mean the difference between winning and losing. In your analogy, a pawn in chess means nothing, as most people just tend to use them as throw away pieces, but really, they're just as powerful and necessary as the rest of the pieces. This is why games are stupefied. Today's children can't handle critical thinking or challenge. But by all means, keep to your million one and only heroes.

I like the OPs idea. I've grown tired of being the Rambo of video games, carrying 20 weapons, and soloing my way to the top.... only to see the rest of you there, on the same level top, meaning "You are NOT the best".

Why, thanks Data, I quite like it as well.

sunandshadow · July 2014

Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
I was gonna respond to the comment above, but this was the last one I read. Imagine for a moment that you have been in cryo-stasis, enforced coma, a water bath to prevent g forces killing you- whatever. Your ship is realistic technology, a solar sail or something that travels a long way (yes I know this cannot happen in reality, but within the realms of realistic sci-fi, imagine it has). You arrive on a goldilocks planet and find that it is already occupied by humanoids more adapted to their environment. They are simply more adept than you. Fortunately they are friendly and they assist you in setting up camps, they even protect you against the local wildlife. But you need to return the favour. For example, you can snipe while they kick the shit out of stuff cause they are driven by proving their melee abilities. You need to prove your worth to be recognised by them. You can pilot ships and destroy locations from orbit, or snipe or one way or another rely on technology. They control technology closely cause in the past it resulted in some planet shattering event, and they feel you prove yourself by physical prowess. That is the set up, I could enjoy that...

Hmm, that's a little different. I've read quite a few romance novels where the main character is a human female half the size of the alien males she is either rescued or kidnapped/bought by. Now, in order for any romance to work out properly, both characters involved have to have some weak area the other can help them with, establishing them as partners. In the human civilian/alien warrior scenario, the aliens are better fighters; the human female would never be able to beat one of them at some kind of melee combat, partly because they have years of training at that and a culture that thinks being a warrior is important, and she doesn't. But that doesn't mean she can't best one of them at _life_, because life isn't about melee combat in a romance novel. Bad guy holds her prisoner? Maybe she can poison him, maybe she's a mage who can fool him with an illusion or a shapeshift, maybe she is twice as charismatic as him and convinces her guard to free her and switch to her side. (I think romantic mode probably counts as a third story type besides heroic and realistic.)

Anyway the relevant question for your MMO concept is, is the player a melee fighter? It would be uncool to be an inferior melee fighter in a world of superior melee fighters. But it would be fine to be a mage in a world of melee fighters.

Cephus404 · July 2014

I'm not commenting on the game in particular, but I don't care about being "the best" or "the hero" in any game I play. I don't care. I just want to have fun. I think that anyone who plays these games. trying to live vicariously through their characters, has serious problems. It's just a game. Play it as such.

Quizzical · July 2014

The problem is, how do you play balance that to make interesting combat? If you have an ally who is vastly stronger than you, then success or failure in a mission depends mostly on what your ally does, and little on what you do.

TheQuietGamer · July 2014

Originally posted by sunandshadow

Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
I was gonna respond to the comment above, but this was the last one I read. Imagine for a moment that you have been in cryo-stasis, enforced coma, a water bath to prevent g forces killing you- whatever. Your ship is realistic technology, a solar sail or something that travels a long way (yes I know this cannot happen in reality, but within the realms of realistic sci-fi, imagine it has). You arrive on a goldilocks planet and find that it is already occupied by humanoids more adapted to their environment. They are simply more adept than you. Fortunately they are friendly and they assist you in setting up camps, they even protect you against the local wildlife. But you need to return the favour. For example, you can snipe while they kick the shit out of stuff cause they are driven by proving their melee abilities. You need to prove your worth to be recognised by them. You can pilot ships and destroy locations from orbit, or snipe or one way or another rely on technology. They control technology closely cause in the past it resulted in some planet shattering event, and they feel you prove yourself by physical prowess. That is the set up, I could enjoy that...

Hmm, that's a little different. I've read quite a few romance novels where the main character is a human female half the size of the alien males she is either rescued or kidnapped/bought by. Now, in order for any romance to work out properly, both characters involved have to have some weak area the other can help them with, establishing them as partners. In the human civilian/alien warrior scenario, the aliens are better fighters; the human female would never be able to beat one of them at some kind of melee combat, partly because they have years of training at that and a culture that thinks being a warrior is important, and she doesn't. But that doesn't mean she can't best one of them at _life_, because life isn't about melee combat in a romance novel. Bad guy holds her prisoner? Maybe she can poison him, maybe she's a mage who can fool him with an illusion or a shapeshift, maybe she is twice as charismatic as him and convinces her guard to free her and switch to her side. (I think romantic mode probably counts as a third story type besides heroic and realistic.)

Anyway the relevant question for your MMO concept is, is the player a melee fighter? It would be uncool to be an inferior melee fighter in a world of superior melee fighters. But it would be fine to be a mage in a world of melee fighters.

Interesting response.

I am writing atm a novel (I think) whereby there is a langragian system with one planet more advanced than the other. I find it odd in this scenario that you immediatly assume the female to be week. Why?

reeereee · July 2014

Any game that doesn't force me to play the stale hero role gets +2 in my book.

I'm not sure why an artificial context is needed to prevent the PC from being "the one." There are how many billion people on earth and very few are legendary heroes.

Waterlily · July 2014

I like unbalanced MMO, where one class is stronger than the other, but both classes are necessary for the completion of events.

I don't mind being an underdog in a game at all, howoever, there are limits, every class should be able to reach a status where they are valuable.

sunandshadow · July 2014

Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Interesting response. I am writing atm a novel (I think) whereby there is a langragian system with one planet more advanced than the other. I find it odd in this scenario that you immediatly assume the female to be week. Why?

It's not so much that I'm assuming the female is weak, as that I'm assuming the alien warriors are male. I'm not terribly fond of female warrior characters, because they usually strike me as being there mainly as fanservice for male fans who can more easily sympathize with a masculine personality in a female body than most other possible combinations. I'm not saying this is bad, just that as a female fan I'm usually not interested in warrior female characters due to the personalities their writers give them. And I can appreciate the situation from the other side too; many female fans (including me) are enthusiastic about characters who have a male body with a feminine personality, but male fans often don't particularly like these characters. There's a fairly long thread over at absolutewrite's sff forum about the "female fighter cliche" and avoiding it. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290911

But back on topic, what I actually assumed was if a character exists to symbolize physical strength, they're probably male. Physical strength is often analogized to direct and straight-forward thought, both stereotypically male, and when you want to create another faction or character to be opposite that then the obvious choice would be a female who thinks in a more subtly holistic or manipulative way (well, or transcendental but I dislike transcendental characters, especially female ones). When I think about excessively strong alien warriors, and a non-excessively-strong human the pattern that comes to my mind first is a romance novel where the human is female, and that's simply because I've read a lot of those. (In fact one, Ja-Rael's Lioness, involves two planets in the same solar system, one with human refugees ill-adapted to their situation and the other with cat-people (though there's a suspicion they started out as human colonists engineered to be cat-like.) I've read a few where the human is male and it's gay romance too. (It would be uncommon to see gay romance discussed on a gaming forum which is probably 85% male posters, so that's another reason I assumed the human character would be female if it was a romance.) And some non-romances where there's a big and muscley but shy and average-intelligence male who is the sidekick of a skinny little strategic genius male.

If you're writing a novel though, your main character is supposed to be "uniquely able" to solve the story problem for some reason related to the theme. So they're not going to be just anybody. They're going to have some kind of strength, of mind or personality or magic, that the aliens don't have.

Utinni · July 2014

This describes the feeling of most older MMO's before the solo-hero_00000000000001 shit started. Feeling strong in an MMO is super sad.

Kangaroomouse · July 2014

I like the concept. Instead of leveling up you can pick perks like in Fallout to help you adapt to the environment. From simple wearable tech like a re-breather to DNA and cyber modifications. These help you access new areas that where previously deadly to you and so forth.

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Yeah, i would play that if done right and i don't need to be the Hero to have fun. I have played FFXI for 12 years and i can say that while i did feel a little like a hero finishing long story arcs and watching epic cut-scenes i was brought back to reality fast when one of those rabbits in Uleguerand Range kicked my ass.

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We are a society that is programmed from a very young age to consume as much and as fast as possible. Anything standing in our way of consumption is considered a nuisance and has to be eliminated. This applies to everything, even games.

Velifax · July 2014

It looks as though some people do need to feel like a hero.

I have never needed that. I could be happy playing game wherein I was the weakest of all. Long as it was in context and well executed.

firebat413 · July 2014

I don't have to be the hero when I play a game. As long as the enemies / bosses are beatable, I do not mind the extra help.

Four0Six · July 2014

I do.

Every God Damn time I play.

Every God Damn game I play.

I am a realist.

Plus no need to tempt any Elder God with a claim of pride and vanity, that most often always ends in crushing defeat.

lunatiquez · July 2014

Does DC Universe Online ring the bell?

The heroes are the heroes (Superman, Batman, etc).

rojoArcueid · July 2014

Yes, i would play an mmo where i am not, and will never be, the one hero savior of the world. Its an mmo, having millions of ¨the hero¨ completely kill the whole thing. The one hero thing is for single player games where nobody else is around and messing with your story as a soon-to-be hero.

With that said, I do not like the idea of having overpowered npc helping me. That just make the game a cakewalk, if i need help i expect real players to help me. I am totally OK with having npc companions that are competent and can help with some healing or a bit of tanking or damage but not an OP npc. Also if i hire npcs to help me, and a bunch of players also show up to help, scale the difficulty up.

I dont mind if its sci-fi or not, as long as its well done and fun im fine with it.

Now, if you want to have the old hero thing in your mmo, make it a group of heroes, where an entire guild can affect the outcome of the story and become ¨the heroes¨, in plural. And have recognition as a guild for doing X content and saving the world, etc. Not just random PUGs doing stuff.

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