I think in mmorpgs where there is a time element for competitiveness, leveling fast is important and story is in the way at that point. For instance, WoW arena gear, it's only good for so long and if you can get it before or at least at the same time as everyone else, then you would have an advantage. If in that case all gear was normalized only skins where what conquest netted you, I could see slowing down and smelling the roses, but that's not how it is.
If i want a story i'll play a single player game. An mmorpg is about interacting in a virtual world with other players. Story just takes players away from the world and into their own little bubble.
Originally posted by waveslayer All these ppl saying they want to make thier own story, 99.9% will leave fast when they have no direction given them, its happened before. Lots of ppl on this site claiming SWG was holy grail of sandboxes and how they played and loved it, I do not believe 99% of them, becuase I was there and withn 6 months the game was a ghost town cuase everyone cried there was nothing to do... there is a reason why the combat revamp then the NGE happened and its not becuase the game was a raging success, on top of that there is a bigger reason why companies keep making themepark games, ppl play them - money talks bull%&*# walks
That has nothing to do with story, though.
That has to do with how much guidance the game gives you. As I recall, SWG (pre-NGE) didn't have a lot of guidance, in terms of showing you where to go, what to do, who to talk to. It was left up to you to figure that out. A lot of people aren't comfortable in that kind of situation; they don't like having to figure out all that. They just want to "do stuff".
That can happen in any game, MMO or otherwise, story-driven or otherwise.
UsualSuspect - -you ever dungeon mastered before? The players are on rails, they just don't know it. A good DM gives the illusion that you are free to go wherever, do whatever -- but basically we are manipulating you to go where we want and to do what we want. At least a good DM will do that. A bad DM will either let the players go off on tangents and end in a cluster, or will make it feel like you are being guided by the nose. I'm not sure how you can give the illusion of free choice in the electronic medium and still tell the story the designer/progrmmers want to.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 If i want a story i'll play a single player game. An mmorpg is about interacting in a virtual world with other players. Story just takes players away from the world and into their own little bubble.
Thanks to developers' increasing love affair with "instanced everything" in the last decade or so, that's pretty much literal lol.
I hate being fed story, and the "You are the ONLY hope no one else can stop the evil" (looking at you FFXIV) . Well me, and every other person doing those quests. Personal story made by devs is singleplayer, and flies in the face of what an MMORPG should be.
Give me story that is world based. Like you know the real world has. I am not the only hope (or any hope) for the Iraq conflict, but it is happening, and I technically could go join it.
Let me choose what part of the story I want to be apart of by just letting it happen with or without me.
Sorta like the AQ opening quest for WOW. That was a whole server wide event not even limited to max level toons (First part anyways). It was my choice to gather mats for the cause. A lot of people had to pitch in.
I often use Northrend in Wow as an example of just being fed story. I played Wrath of the Lich King on the night of release. The first quests were like "We finally are pushing to Northrend, make your way there for the first time ever, and be on the front lines." This was 10 min after the xpac went live.
I get to northrend, and every building, and quest giver were already there standing around waiting for me. "But I thought we just finally started to go to Northrend. Why does it seem like we have been here for a month already with all these fancy buildings?? Why did it seem like the foot hold was already dug? We are supposed to be the first ones here.
Why was there not a "build up the zone events"? It is because we are just being fed a story, we are not truly apart of the story. Or else the first players would have had a "cool clear this place out while other players (and NPCs) erect the buildings" quest.
Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?
Every other medium has quests: books, movies. Think about the plot of a movie is generally a character(s) going on a series of quests/missions. How boring would a story be if it was just about heroes roaming around randomly occasionally whacking a random enemies.
I just don't get the hatred of quests or even quest hubs... they make sense.... they just friggin' make sense. Also, I don't know of any MMORPG where you can't ignore the quests, so just ignore them.
You present two different questions. Story and quests are not necessarily one and the same, although from your post I get the feeling that you probably have not experienced MMOs outside of the quest-driven hub-based type.
To answer the subject line: I don't think people hate story so much as they are frustrated by it. In most MMOs, the story help to create context, but the reality is that it is irrelevant to one's gameplay or, in the more open MMOs, irrelevant to the character's actual story that is evolving as the person plays.
To answer the quest thing: Today's quests would have never been called quests in many of the older MMOs. They are tasks - filler content - and just p[art of the progression treadmill. They're also level-based, one-off content, making it unrepeatable or, at best, unrewarding if one wants redo a quest they enjoyed. It's a byproduct of the level-based gameplay of mainstream MMOs
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't hate story at all, when you are referring to the lore of a game. But if you just mean quests in general then they are merely a mechanic for progressing your character. Most people who dislike quests see them as boring, hand-holding, and utterly forgettable wastes of time.
Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?
Every other medium has quests: books, movies. Think about the plot of a movie is generally a character(s) going on a series of quests/missions. How boring would a story be if it was just about heroes roaming around randomly occasionally whacking a random enemies.
I just don't get the hatred of quests or even quest hubs... they make sense.... they just friggin' make sense. Also, I don't know of any MMORPG where you can't ignore the quests, so just ignore them.
I suspect it's because they want to have more of a virtual world where they go out and seek their own encounters. I won't say "make their own stories" because they really aren't "stories" in the sense of "story structure" and usually fall into anecdotal territory.
I love story. Love it to death. I hate quests in these games. I suppose that's why I love the elder scrolls games so much as I can do the quests or not do the quests and still have a great time.
Additionally, developers feel that throwing in huge amounts of piddly quests is better than having larger more meaningful quests.
So what we end up doing is running around a lot doing a few things and then running back again.
Quite frankly I'd rather just camp an area and grind mobs which is what I find myself doing more and more though it's a shame that mob grinding doesn't yield the same xp as completing quests.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
#1. The story is usually pretty interesting for the first part of the game. However, they always end up becoming drawn out and extremely boring.
#2. This might be just me, but these stories always try to paint me out to be a special little snowflake. It doesn't feel that way at all, as every other player in the game is doing the same story.
#3. Redundant boredom with alts. I've already been there and done that.
#4. The story is set in stone. Nothing I do can change or shift anything that is meaningful. The MMO feels like I a big virtual book - I'm just going through the motions, e.g., Go here, go there...
A general theme or setting is fine - lore about the land etc.
Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?
Every other medium has quests: books, movies. Think about the plot of a movie is generally a character(s) going on a series of quests/missions. How boring would a story be if it was just about heroes roaming around randomly occasionally whacking a random enemies.
I just don't get the hatred of quests or even quest hubs... they make sense.... they just friggin' make sense. Also, I don't know of any MMORPG where you can't ignore the quests, so just ignore them.
What? I love quests. ESO quests were awesome. I also hate quests. Quests in every single other MMO I've played are pretty awful. I guess I don't really hate quests, I just hate it when developers only put the minimum effort into them.
I like Lore, but not a personal story. Personal stories should be decided upon and created, not pre-defined. Does anyone IRL have a personal story? NO, they pretty much grow up somewhere and define who they are by their own actions.
Even pen and paper RPGs don't have a pre defined story. You start a level one fighter in some town; but what happens is defined by your actions and the DM.
Having a personal story in a game leads to a pre-defined path, which means you'll spend more time interacting with NPCs than with real humans. And that is the key reason I oppose personal stories in MMO.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I personally like questing when it's handled well, I'd much prefer the quest approach to mob grinds, or grinding my day away in the same few BGs or Dungeons. The presence of story/questing doesn't come as a detriment to my own personal Role-play (story). For me it can heighten it. As it gives my character an outlet to truly become part of that world, and what's going on in it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The main reason people hate quests is because they're not an MMO player. The vast majority of players these days have come over from other game genres because of an IP. They run through quests and don't even read or listen to the quests. If I did this, I wouldn't have any fun at all in MMOs as well. Story and lore tells me why I'm killing those 10 rats. I'm not going to go kill 10 rats unless I know why.
If you ran upto a quest giver and all he said was "Kill 10 rats", you'd say this is the worst quest ever. Unfortunately, people don't read the story behind the quest, and just the quest tracker that says "Kill 10 rats". So to them all the quest giver told them was "Kill 10 rats". Now if the quest giver was like an apothecary or healer, and that the overpopulation of rats has started to spread disease. This disease could spread out and kill 25 million people in the middle 1300s...you'd really want to go kill those 10 rats.
The main reason people hate quests is because they're not an MMO player. The vast majority of players these days have come over from other game genres because of an IP. They run through quests and don't even read or listen to the quests. If I did this, I wouldn't have any fun at all in MMOs as well. Story and lore tells me why I'm killing those 10 rats. I'm not going to go kill 10 rats unless I know why.
If you ran upto a quest giver and all he said was "Kill 10 rats", you'd say this is the worst quest ever. Unfortunately, people don't read the story behind the quest, and just the quest tracker that says "Kill 10 rats". So to them all the quest giver told them was "Kill 10 rats". Now if the quest giver was like an apothecary or healer, and that the overpopulation of rats has started to spread disease. This disease could spread out and kill 25 million people in the middle 1300s...you'd really want to go kill those 10 rats.
No the kill 10 rats quest is just lame no matter how they present it.
Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?
Every other medium has quests: books, movies. Think about the plot of a movie is generally a character(s) going on a series of quests/missions. How boring would a story be if it was just about heroes roaming around randomly occasionally whacking a random enemies.
I just don't get the hatred of quests or even quest hubs... they make sense.... they just friggin' make sense. Also, I don't know of any MMORPG where you can't ignore the quests, so just ignore them.
Interesting, I guess because I have never and will never like a "story" from a movie, or book that only talks about going out and fetching ten plants, then going and killing ten rats. Maybe if I was starting out early in the story fine. IF the movie is the same scene of a person killing rats, or picking up trash, just in a different background each time with bigger rats, or if the character in a book was always doing the same 5 tasks just in a different setting, sorry but I wouldn't watch or read those books either.
99% (Made up statistics!) of "stories" in the quest lines aren't stories. I think for in-depth story telling, you need actual authors to write the story not studio directors, artists or your average everyday developers who have never written a story in their life.
TLDR;
I like stories, but lets not kid ourselves, mmo quests are not interesting stories they are mini games to access and ding the reward pleasure zones of your brain to keep you playing.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?
Every other medium has quests: books, movies. Think about the plot of a movie is generally a character(s) going on a series of quests/missions. How boring would a story be if it was just about heroes roaming around randomly occasionally whacking a random enemies.
I just don't get the hatred of quests or even quest hubs... they make sense.... they just friggin' make sense. Also, I don't know of any MMORPG where you can't ignore the quests, so just ignore them.
people hate the old school approach into the implement of the MMOworld's story each time. In GW2 the "quests" or better the story is quite amusing (if you except the personal story which has lots of issues as a story) . So people don't hate the story, they hate the same old story ...
Why do so many people on these forums hate quests?
Every other medium has quests: books, movies. Think about the plot of a movie is generally a character(s) going on a series of quests/missions. How boring would a story be if it was just about heroes roaming around randomly occasionally whacking a random enemies.
I just don't get the hatred of quests or even quest hubs... they make sense.... they just friggin' make sense. Also, I don't know of any MMORPG where you can't ignore the quests, so just ignore them.
The quests in movies are usually epic things and few people hates them, particularly since movies usually have 1 with maybe a side quest or 2.
But constantly having a full questlog with menial tasks is a very different thing. A movie where the heroes farmed small stuff would suck even more than one where they just moved around.
I just think that a lot of games do quests in the reverse.
The problem isn't with quests, it is with MMOs and how MMOs current world just constantly reset. So Jimmy who wants you to go find his sister Sally will ask you to find Sally. So you find Sally, only for you to return to that town some time down the road, for you to see Jimmy still standing on the corner, 9 years old as he was 2 years ago - sobbing..looking for Sally.
Now either Sally is a dumbass and needs to be leashed, or this is just a bad system. MMOs need to evolve, NPCs especially, their dialogue needs to be updated and reflect the happenings of the world. These quests need to change.
So instead of developers spending eons writing all these quests into hubs or rehasing the same type of quest in new words...why not focus on creating a world that can evolve and then place AND REMOVE people and NPCs.
Maybe one day you are walking through town where you regularly sell or buy your goods and you happen to notice a sign on the tavern door, and flowers and gifts on the doorstep. You wonder why? The owner of the tavern went missing, or he died, or was murdered.
Can you imagine the scenarios that can branch off from the above situation? Perhaps the tavern owner has died, will someone venture out to find out what happened? Will someone avenge him upon finding out he was murdered? What will happen to the tavern now? Will someone else run it or will it shut down and become something else?
The possibilities are endless and I just find the way developers think to be so finite and narrow.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
Comments
That has nothing to do with story, though.
That has to do with how much guidance the game gives you. As I recall, SWG (pre-NGE) didn't have a lot of guidance, in terms of showing you where to go, what to do, who to talk to. It was left up to you to figure that out. A lot of people aren't comfortable in that kind of situation; they don't like having to figure out all that. They just want to "do stuff".
That can happen in any game, MMO or otherwise, story-driven or otherwise.
Why do children hate games ?
Why do lovers hate sex ?
Why do people hate food ?
Why do the rich hate money ?
Questions over questions that nobody ever thinks about ! Why ?? I ask. Why oh why ???
Thanks to developers' increasing love affair with "instanced everything" in the last decade or so, that's pretty much literal lol.
I hate being fed story, and the "You are the ONLY hope no one else can stop the evil" (looking at you FFXIV) . Well me, and every other person doing those quests. Personal story made by devs is singleplayer, and flies in the face of what an MMORPG should be.
Give me story that is world based. Like you know the real world has. I am not the only hope (or any hope) for the Iraq conflict, but it is happening, and I technically could go join it.
Let me choose what part of the story I want to be apart of by just letting it happen with or without me.
Sorta like the AQ opening quest for WOW. That was a whole server wide event not even limited to max level toons (First part anyways). It was my choice to gather mats for the cause. A lot of people had to pitch in.
I often use Northrend in Wow as an example of just being fed story. I played Wrath of the Lich King on the night of release. The first quests were like "We finally are pushing to Northrend, make your way there for the first time ever, and be on the front lines." This was 10 min after the xpac went live.
I get to northrend, and every building, and quest giver were already there standing around waiting for me. "But I thought we just finally started to go to Northrend. Why does it seem like we have been here for a month already with all these fancy buildings?? Why did it seem like the foot hold was already dug? We are supposed to be the first ones here.
Why was there not a "build up the zone events"? It is because we are just being fed a story, we are not truly apart of the story. Or else the first players would have had a "cool clear this place out while other players (and NPCs) erect the buildings" quest.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
You present two different questions. Story and quests are not necessarily one and the same, although from your post I get the feeling that you probably have not experienced MMOs outside of the quest-driven hub-based type.
To answer the subject line: I don't think people hate story so much as they are frustrated by it. In most MMOs, the story help to create context, but the reality is that it is irrelevant to one's gameplay or, in the more open MMOs, irrelevant to the character's actual story that is evolving as the person plays.
To answer the quest thing: Today's quests would have never been called quests in many of the older MMOs. They are tasks - filler content - and just p[art of the progression treadmill. They're also level-based, one-off content, making it unrepeatable or, at best, unrewarding if one wants redo a quest they enjoyed. It's a byproduct of the level-based gameplay of mainstream MMOs
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't hate story at all, when you are referring to the lore of a game. But if you just mean quests in general then they are merely a mechanic for progressing your character. Most people who dislike quests see them as boring, hand-holding, and utterly forgettable wastes of time.
I suspect it's because they want to have more of a virtual world where they go out and seek their own encounters. I won't say "make their own stories" because they really aren't "stories" in the sense of "story structure" and usually fall into anecdotal territory.
I love story. Love it to death. I hate quests in these games. I suppose that's why I love the elder scrolls games so much as I can do the quests or not do the quests and still have a great time.
Additionally, developers feel that throwing in huge amounts of piddly quests is better than having larger more meaningful quests.
So what we end up doing is running around a lot doing a few things and then running back again.
Quite frankly I'd rather just camp an area and grind mobs which is what I find myself doing more and more though it's a shame that mob grinding doesn't yield the same xp as completing quests.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't like story.
#1. The story is usually pretty interesting for the first part of the game. However, they always end up becoming drawn out and extremely boring.
#2. This might be just me, but these stories always try to paint me out to be a special little snowflake. It doesn't feel that way at all, as every other player in the game is doing the same story.
#3. Redundant boredom with alts. I've already been there and done that.
#4. The story is set in stone. Nothing I do can change or shift anything that is meaningful. The MMO feels like I a big virtual book - I'm just going through the motions, e.g., Go here, go there...
A general theme or setting is fine - lore about the land etc.
What? I love quests. ESO quests were awesome. I also hate quests. Quests in every single other MMO I've played are pretty awful. I guess I don't really hate quests, I just hate it when developers only put the minimum effort into them.
I like Lore, but not a personal story. Personal stories should be decided upon and created, not pre-defined. Does anyone IRL have a personal story? NO, they pretty much grow up somewhere and define who they are by their own actions.
Even pen and paper RPGs don't have a pre defined story. You start a level one fighter in some town; but what happens is defined by your actions and the DM.
Having a personal story in a game leads to a pre-defined path, which means you'll spend more time interacting with NPCs than with real humans. And that is the key reason I oppose personal stories in MMO.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The main reason people hate quests is because they're not an MMO player. The vast majority of players these days have come over from other game genres because of an IP. They run through quests and don't even read or listen to the quests. If I did this, I wouldn't have any fun at all in MMOs as well. Story and lore tells me why I'm killing those 10 rats. I'm not going to go kill 10 rats unless I know why.
If you ran upto a quest giver and all he said was "Kill 10 rats", you'd say this is the worst quest ever. Unfortunately, people don't read the story behind the quest, and just the quest tracker that says "Kill 10 rats". So to them all the quest giver told them was "Kill 10 rats". Now if the quest giver was like an apothecary or healer, and that the overpopulation of rats has started to spread disease. This disease could spread out and kill 25 million people in the middle 1300s...you'd really want to go kill those 10 rats.
No the kill 10 rats quest is just lame no matter how they present it.
Interesting, I guess because I have never and will never like a "story" from a movie, or book that only talks about going out and fetching ten plants, then going and killing ten rats. Maybe if I was starting out early in the story fine. IF the movie is the same scene of a person killing rats, or picking up trash, just in a different background each time with bigger rats, or if the character in a book was always doing the same 5 tasks just in a different setting, sorry but I wouldn't watch or read those books either.
99% (Made up statistics!) of "stories" in the quest lines aren't stories. I think for in-depth story telling, you need actual authors to write the story not studio directors, artists or your average everyday developers who have never written a story in their life.
TLDR;
I like stories, but lets not kid ourselves, mmo quests are not interesting stories they are mini games to access and ding the reward pleasure zones of your brain to keep you playing.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
Quests can be part of a good balanced diet, along with other activities such as harvesting/crafting, mini-games like cards, etc.
But when you cannot advance because you just *have* to do a certain quest, that does not belong in an MMO.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
nah .. the kill 10 rats quest in Bard's Tale (the remake, not the original) is seriously COOL.
people hate the old school approach into the implement of the MMOworld's story each time. In GW2 the "quests" or better the story is quite amusing (if you except the personal story which has lots of issues as a story) . So people don't hate the story, they hate the same old story ...
The quests in movies are usually epic things and few people hates them, particularly since movies usually have 1 with maybe a side quest or 2.
But constantly having a full questlog with menial tasks is a very different thing. A movie where the heroes farmed small stuff would suck even more than one where they just moved around.
I just think that a lot of games do quests in the reverse.
The problem isn't with quests, it is with MMOs and how MMOs current world just constantly reset. So Jimmy who wants you to go find his sister Sally will ask you to find Sally. So you find Sally, only for you to return to that town some time down the road, for you to see Jimmy still standing on the corner, 9 years old as he was 2 years ago - sobbing..looking for Sally.
Now either Sally is a dumbass and needs to be leashed, or this is just a bad system. MMOs need to evolve, NPCs especially, their dialogue needs to be updated and reflect the happenings of the world. These quests need to change.
So instead of developers spending eons writing all these quests into hubs or rehasing the same type of quest in new words...why not focus on creating a world that can evolve and then place AND REMOVE people and NPCs.
Maybe one day you are walking through town where you regularly sell or buy your goods and you happen to notice a sign on the tavern door, and flowers and gifts on the doorstep. You wonder why? The owner of the tavern went missing, or he died, or was murdered.
Can you imagine the scenarios that can branch off from the above situation? Perhaps the tavern owner has died, will someone venture out to find out what happened? Will someone avenge him upon finding out he was murdered? What will happen to the tavern now? Will someone else run it or will it shut down and become something else?
The possibilities are endless and I just find the way developers think to be so finite and narrow.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
When context overtakes content, you start to lose sight of what game development is.
I think that is what a lot of MMO gamers are hoping developers will do - exactly that
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".