Originally posted by Dibdabs Reaching to point of being able to play endgame content is when I leave the game entirely and play something else. "Endgame" just means they ran out of ideas and put some tediously repetitive content there simply to please the sheeple.
I very agree with the above even though I'm actually guilty of grinding every new tier added to FFXIV ARR I am getting sick of it as every tier comes with even more grind of same content on and on.
I enjoyed FFXIV 1.0 where I leveled all classes/jobs to level cap and did all their quests and artifacts.
"mmorpg.com forum admins are all TROLLS and losers in real life" My opinion
Not me, I only play the leveling portion and I retire any and all characters that reach end-game. I can't stand raiding, I hate PvP with a passion and the gear grind is obnoxious. If I'm not leveling, I'm not interested.
Endgame for me is the point where....the game ends.
The problem is, MMO's have forgotten to include things into games to want me to stay in the game once I reach that point. If levelling is the only carrot then when I reach max level there is no point continuing to play.
If I want to start at max level....there are FPS games or driving games or SPG's I can play where I simply play for fun but an MMO, for me, must include more then a single carrot.
It seems to me that players are literally chasing the "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". Instead of enjoying a game right here and now they do certain things/ activities because they expect the fun to suddenly jump from behind the next shrub/ corner. *yay*
There is no power cap since first there is some level advancement and at a later point this shifts ever more to equipment acquirement. There is a "false hope" to find more players at level cap to team up with than during the journey. Two in-game characters at level cap can be very far apart in regard to acquired power. So there will still be difficulties when doing challenging group content.
The journey itself, exploring the game's world, interacting with the environment (NPCs and PCs) and training and improving your in-game charcater should be the focus of an RPG. Eventually an in-game character gets shelved and the game starts anew.
Take your time, there are other players around you. Don't rush to some non-exitsant arbitrary frontier (i.e. level cap). Farming and repeating the same content rather feels like working on an assembly line. Don't lose the reason(s) for playing games or else the fun might evaporate. During the journey the chances are good to meet new people to play with. At the "end game" far too often a utilitarian mindset prevails.
I hate both questing and leveling in mmo's. I hate levels too. I want just end game play and progression / customization of my character. I also hate alts. I want to be able to play everything a game offers with one and only char.
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
I don't like using terminology or pick parts of a game,i want a full fledged great GAME to play.I don't want part of a game because then it is not a game just a real weak effort by the developer.I am not paying money to half ass developers and most certainly i am not ever paying for any Alpha or Beta access either.
Supporting a developer that can't make a complete game that is fun to play sets a terrible precedent might as well just give them free money and not even play their game.
I have said this before on several occasions ,there is NOTHING that needs to separate any end game from the main game,you can accomplish anything end game DURING the game.The slack use of the term end-game really tells me it is a WOW era of gaming term used to describe nothing more than "boring game,let's just kill Bosses".News flash you can kill bosses AND have instances and Raids and loot drops at every single level of a game,no need for lame l33t terms like end-game.
Using the term "end-game" is a very loose use of the term,it means nothing and proves that you are supporting a superficial reason to game.It is like using the term FUN,it really means nothing unless you know what FUN means to that individual.
Game development is almost like price fixing,everyone is doing the same thing so that nobody pushes each other to do better.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
OP mind mentioning which of these MMORPG of the old didn't involve some form of leveling?
Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.
I honostly see them as different from each other, yet when I read complaints it's clear most don't as with themepark for some reason people want it to have sandbox feature's, which can be done within the limits of it's game engine though never fully sandbox due to the nature of the construction of the game. Then we have sandbox and hear people complaining they need more "handholding"
As for my past experiance with MMORPG what I miss is the feeling of a virtual world, I really do not need endgame if it's themepark as then the game shifts to doing dungeons/raids/PVP. I want to do these things during my virtual life in that world and not when I reach cap lvl.
I really never care about endgame with themeparks as I personaly get better experiance in normal multiplayer games. I care about the journey and when it's themepark it better presents me with good lore/story and quests yet it also needs to provide me with a certain extend of freedom. I can't stand MMORPG that are on rails. And even if a themepark is most like very much on rails it needs to have the options I personaly want that grants me certain freedom, else I aint playing.
Sandbox however the journey never ends due to it's more virtual world feel regardless if you reach cap lvl/skills/ability's there is much that keeps me going.
Prime example for me was SWG, our guild town(s) kept growing, customer base for my/our shops etc as there was alwas demand for stuff ranging from furniture, armor, weapons, spaceships, vehicles, houses, harvesters, tools, pets you name it we could make it.
Majority of games has changed aswell as it's player base since most seem more interested in endgame and want the journey to be gone. To me with those I played we never where intrested in reaching cap lvl it was all about "being there living that life of your virtual self"
EQ never connected with me even though I know it was a good game but it also felt more like a game then when I set foot in SWG, and regardless my previous experiance with Meridian59, AO, UO SWG was the game I thought would lead into the future of MMORPG. Unfortunaly for me I was wrong and we got more game then worlds.
LOL, if you stripped the game down to actual "end game"... meaning there is no gear grind, no level grind, no progression grind, all you'd have is the same 5 instances to do for an entire year. No loot, no titles, no rewards, nothing but killing the same bosses over and over again... for no reason whatsoever other than they are there.
Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.
If you have a suggestion for a good Sandbox that is out right now, I'm all ears. I've been looking for a good one since Shadowbane went defunct. I've only found 3, and they didn't quite suit me. Darkfall was... well, Darkfall. Mortal Online was fun, but it had a latency that messed me up a bit. That may have changed, this was a couple years back, but it caused strange things to happen in combat that turned me off on it. And EVE I played for a while- got up to 46 mil SP on my character and then called it quits; the system itself is great, but the combat was a little on the boring side.
If you happen to know of any others outside of those 3 that would be worth trying, I'll definitely give them a go. You could be right- it could be that themeparks aren't for me, and I'm floundering about looking for what I want in all the wrong places.
IMHO I believe the word endgame was the worst thing to ever happen to MMO's. MMO's are suppose to be about the journey not some magic number that states now I can do the same things over and over so I can get the best gear, etc.
Personally I prefer leveling, I like getting new skills, new items etc. This doesn't have to be number leveling like 1-50, it can be just using a skill increases it. But it is leveling when you sit down and think about it. I personally would love to see an MMO with no level cap in todays game pool that isn't 10 years old. It could be something as in you gain .1 percent of a skill for each level but if you played for 10 years straight you became a god because of having no life. But that would be your decision to make.
Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.
If you have a suggestion for a good Sandbox that is out right now, I'm all ears. I've been looking for a good one since Shadowbane went defunct. I've only found 3, and they didn't quite suit me. Darkfall was... well, Darkfall. Mortal Online was fun, but it had a latency that messed me up a bit. That may have changed, this was a couple years back, but it caused strange things to happen in combat that turned me off on it. And EVE I played for a while- got up to 46 mil SP on my character and then called it quits; the system itself is great, but the combat was a little on the boring side.
If you happen to know of any others outside of those 3 that would be worth trying, I'll definitely give them a go. You could be right- it could be that themeparks aren't for me, and I'm floundering about looking for what I want in all the wrong places.
I wished I could man....There arn't any out I want to play as I don't want full PVP because in a sandbox nothing should be forced not even PVP everything should be optional or atleast make sense. Love all of EVE feature's yet the whole being a spaceship kinda never connected with me but it's a game I do respect.
For now I carved my own little niche within themepark games till "THAT" sandbox virtual world will come. But have toned down expecting themepark games to be more then they can be and play them if they are fun to me. My expectations of sandbox games is pretty high which is the main reason I hvn't found that one to call "home"
Before dnd, we played board and war games. When dnd came out, we had a new thing where we could just keep playing. There wasn't an endgame like chess there was the purity of game play.
Now having a person act as DM is easier than having a game with endless content. So what we have at "endgame" in mmoRPGs is repetition as that is the trivial solution to a not so easy to solve problem. Yes we could do random generated content but I deserve better content than that.
As to progression, imo without progression a mmorpg is pretty much over for me. There can be exceptions to that rule.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by waynejr2 Before dnd, we played board and war games. When dnd came out, we had a new thing where we could just keep playing. There wasn't an endgame like chess there was the purity of game play. Now having a person act as DM is easier than having a game with endless content. So what we have at "endgame" in mmoRPGs is repetition as that is the trivial solution to a not so easy to solve problem. Yes we could do random generated content but I deserve better content than that. As to progression, imo without progression a mmorpg is pretty much over for me. There can be exceptions to that rule.
But there really is no similarity between D&D and MMOs. D&D, at least by the rules, has an end. You reach a certain level, the game is over for that character, roll up another one. Most characters don't last long anyhow, people constantly re-roll new characters, as often as every single campaign, sometimes more often if they die. That's not how MMOs work at all. Most people play one, or a small number of characters for a long, long time, as long as they play the game at all, including after the end of the game. That's like pretending your character is still doing stuff after the GM has gone home.
Like you, I think the whole concept of endgame is idiotic.
Look, making a game without traditional levels but with rewards that are effectively unlocked through effluxion of time is easy, they are still levels by another name. But at the end of the day people need either the carrot or the stick to keep playing. If you think you are intelligent enough to avoid the stick are still the moron chasing the carrot.
Comments
I very agree with the above even though I'm actually guilty of grinding every new tier added to FFXIV ARR I am getting sick of it as every tier comes with even more grind of same content on and on.
I enjoyed FFXIV 1.0 where I leveled all classes/jobs to level cap and did all their quests and artifacts.
"mmorpg.com forum admins are all TROLLS and losers in real life"
My opinion
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I disagree.
Endgame for me is the point where....the game ends.
The problem is, MMO's have forgotten to include things into games to want me to stay in the game once I reach that point. If levelling is the only carrot then when I reach max level there is no point continuing to play.
If I want to start at max level....there are FPS games or driving games or SPG's I can play where I simply play for fun but an MMO, for me, must include more then a single carrot.
Actually in MMORPGs things evolved "upside down".
It seems to me that players are literally chasing the "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". Instead of enjoying a game right here and now they do certain things/ activities because they expect the fun to suddenly jump from behind the next shrub/ corner. *yay*
There is no power cap since first there is some level advancement and at a later point this shifts ever more to equipment acquirement. There is a "false hope" to find more players at level cap to team up with than during the journey. Two in-game characters at level cap can be very far apart in regard to acquired power. So there will still be difficulties when doing challenging group content.
The journey itself, exploring the game's world, interacting with the environment (NPCs and PCs) and training and improving your in-game charcater should be the focus of an RPG. Eventually an in-game character gets shelved and the game starts anew.
Take your time, there are other players around you. Don't rush to some non-exitsant arbitrary frontier (i.e. level cap). Farming and repeating the same content rather feels like working on an assembly line. Don't lose the reason(s) for playing games or else the fun might evaporate. During the journey the chances are good to meet new people to play with. At the "end game" far too often a utilitarian mindset prevails.
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
I don't like using terminology or pick parts of a game,i want a full fledged great GAME to play.I don't want part of a game because then it is not a game just a real weak effort by the developer.I am not paying money to half ass developers and most certainly i am not ever paying for any Alpha or Beta access either.
Supporting a developer that can't make a complete game that is fun to play sets a terrible precedent might as well just give them free money and not even play their game.
I have said this before on several occasions ,there is NOTHING that needs to separate any end game from the main game,you can accomplish anything end game DURING the game.The slack use of the term end-game really tells me it is a WOW era of gaming term used to describe nothing more than "boring game,let's just kill Bosses".News flash you can kill bosses AND have instances and Raids and loot drops at every single level of a game,no need for lame l33t terms like end-game.
Using the term "end-game" is a very loose use of the term,it means nothing and proves that you are supporting a superficial reason to game.It is like using the term FUN,it really means nothing unless you know what FUN means to that individual.
Game development is almost like price fixing,everyone is doing the same thing so that nobody pushes each other to do better.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
OP mind mentioning which of these MMORPG of the old didn't involve some form of leveling?
Apart from that perhaps it's time to be looking more towards sandbox type of games instead trying these Themepark.
I honostly see them as different from each other, yet when I read complaints it's clear most don't as with themepark for some reason people want it to have sandbox feature's, which can be done within the limits of it's game engine though never fully sandbox due to the nature of the construction of the game. Then we have sandbox and hear people complaining they need more "handholding"
As for my past experiance with MMORPG what I miss is the feeling of a virtual world, I really do not need endgame if it's themepark as then the game shifts to doing dungeons/raids/PVP. I want to do these things during my virtual life in that world and not when I reach cap lvl.
I really never care about endgame with themeparks as I personaly get better experiance in normal multiplayer games. I care about the journey and when it's themepark it better presents me with good lore/story and quests yet it also needs to provide me with a certain extend of freedom. I can't stand MMORPG that are on rails. And even if a themepark is most like very much on rails it needs to have the options I personaly want that grants me certain freedom, else I aint playing.
Sandbox however the journey never ends due to it's more virtual world feel regardless if you reach cap lvl/skills/ability's there is much that keeps me going.
Prime example for me was SWG, our guild town(s) kept growing, customer base for my/our shops etc as there was alwas demand for stuff ranging from furniture, armor, weapons, spaceships, vehicles, houses, harvesters, tools, pets you name it we could make it.
Majority of games has changed aswell as it's player base since most seem more interested in endgame and want the journey to be gone. To me with those I played we never where intrested in reaching cap lvl it was all about "being there living that life of your virtual self"
EQ never connected with me even though I know it was a good game but it also felt more like a game then when I set foot in SWG, and regardless my previous experiance with Meridian59, AO, UO SWG was the game I thought would lead into the future of MMORPG. Unfortunaly for me I was wrong and we got more game then worlds.
LOL, if you stripped the game down to actual "end game"... meaning there is no gear grind, no level grind, no progression grind, all you'd have is the same 5 instances to do for an entire year. No loot, no titles, no rewards, nothing but killing the same bosses over and over again... for no reason whatsoever other than they are there.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
DING! DING! DING! DING!
You win the big prize!
You are absolutely correct!
If you have a suggestion for a good Sandbox that is out right now, I'm all ears. I've been looking for a good one since Shadowbane went defunct. I've only found 3, and they didn't quite suit me. Darkfall was... well, Darkfall. Mortal Online was fun, but it had a latency that messed me up a bit. That may have changed, this was a couple years back, but it caused strange things to happen in combat that turned me off on it. And EVE I played for a while- got up to 46 mil SP on my character and then called it quits; the system itself is great, but the combat was a little on the boring side.
If you happen to know of any others outside of those 3 that would be worth trying, I'll definitely give them a go. You could be right- it could be that themeparks aren't for me, and I'm floundering about looking for what I want in all the wrong places.
IMHO I believe the word endgame was the worst thing to ever happen to MMO's. MMO's are suppose to be about the journey not some magic number that states now I can do the same things over and over so I can get the best gear, etc.
Personally I prefer leveling, I like getting new skills, new items etc. This doesn't have to be number leveling like 1-50, it can be just using a skill increases it. But it is leveling when you sit down and think about it. I personally would love to see an MMO with no level cap in todays game pool that isn't 10 years old. It could be something as in you gain .1 percent of a skill for each level but if you played for 10 years straight you became a god because of having no life. But that would be your decision to make.
I wished I could man....There arn't any out I want to play as I don't want full PVP because in a sandbox nothing should be forced not even PVP everything should be optional or atleast make sense. Love all of EVE feature's yet the whole being a spaceship kinda never connected with me but it's a game I do respect.
For now I carved my own little niche within themepark games till "THAT" sandbox virtual world will come. But have toned down expecting themepark games to be more then they can be and play them if they are fun to me. My expectations of sandbox games is pretty high which is the main reason I hvn't found that one to call "home"
No, it's another form of progression. It's just not a fun form of progression for a lot of people.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Now having a person act as DM is easier than having a game with endless content. So what we have at "endgame" in mmoRPGs is repetition as that is the trivial solution to a not so easy to solve problem. Yes we could do random generated content but I deserve better content than that.
As to progression, imo without progression a mmorpg is pretty much over for me. There can be exceptions to that rule.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
But there really is no similarity between D&D and MMOs. D&D, at least by the rules, has an end. You reach a certain level, the game is over for that character, roll up another one. Most characters don't last long anyhow, people constantly re-roll new characters, as often as every single campaign, sometimes more often if they die. That's not how MMOs work at all. Most people play one, or a small number of characters for a long, long time, as long as they play the game at all, including after the end of the game. That's like pretending your character is still doing stuff after the GM has gone home.
Like you, I think the whole concept of endgame is idiotic.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Look, making a game without traditional levels but with rewards that are effectively unlocked through effluxion of time is easy, they are still levels by another name. But at the end of the day people need either the carrot or the stick to keep playing. If you think you are intelligent enough to avoid the stick are still the moron chasing the carrot.