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[Interview] Camelot Unchained: The RVR Map Revealed
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
This week is a seminal one for the Camelot Unchained team as they take to the airwaves to talk about the game that man are looking to as a return to old-school MMOs with definite new-school elements. Today in the first of two CU features, Mark Jacobs et al are ready to talk about the RvR map. Check out our exclusive interview before heading to the Camelot Unchained Twitch.tv channel right about now to participate in a live stream event where even more will be revealed.
Read more of Rob Lashley's Camelot Unchained: The RvR Map Revealed.
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Well here is another great update from the CU crew. Each update this week, part of the BSC days, has really been great to read. I hope they will have some screenshots at some point on where they actually are in development, but we will see.
Good Job MMORPG.com getting those slides on here. I don't recall seeing them on the other reveals, kept going to Massively for them.
They showed a map in the live stream just now, but they also said that the one we were looking at is just an example and not even remotely going to look like how the final map will look. So in other words, they don't know the map layout yet, just what they want to do with the mechanics.
Welcome back true RvR!!
Also just so people know the game is in what I would call a strong Pre-Alpha phase right now. Core systems like combat and races and skills are there, not bare bones; there's some meat on their but nothing that will represent the full strength of this game on launch.
Give the team for CU some time and patience and we will see something special here guys!
There are some concept screenshots at their BSC info page about rvr maps:
http://camelotunchained.com/en/bsc/#about-rvr-map
You can also find all other BSC info there.
thx for the link.
The island like system sounds interesting. Not sure what to make of it yet. i.e. if we build bridges and another realm pulls the island closer to them, does the bridge collapse? I guess we will see but right now I'm happy they try something new.
Maps look pretty good from the concepts. I really do think this game is going to bring RvR back to the forefront of MMO PvP if it plays it's cards right. With the disaster of WvW, and AvA being okay, but not as good as AvA could have been, I think a lot of people are waiting for the next DAoC still.
Personally I really enjoy AvA, but it's still not DAoC.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
This is a good point. I am as excited as everyone else for this game. It really sounds like they are going to bring back realm pride and great RVR PVP. However we also need to remember to not jump right on top of the hype train too quickly. I still think this team has a great shot of pulling all of these systems off but then again no game these days releases as well as it was designed it seems.
lets give them some time and I am sure they will get us a great game, to bring back DAoC RVR
Well it was not what I expected but after letting it all sink in and formulating in my mind how it can work I have to give it a thumbs up.
Again this is something totally different and it is things that are new and different that excite me. Instead of just re-skinning and old Idea and saying it is new this will be truly new and something that will have to be learned over time.
I still have no idea how one will travel this world, but that is part of the excitement.
Nanulak
Okay - I guess it's up to me to be the 'negative nancy' here?
But seriously folks - look at the concept maps. You have all played MMOs before... do any of you seriously think the map will ever look like that map in the third concept drawing?
MMO players just don't play that way.
This is what will happen:
Initially, players will spread out all over the 'world' in a mad land grab. Fighting will be chaotic and furious. If you are not there on day one - don't expect to see this. This is the initial exploration phase in the honeymoon period. One week to one month max.
Soon however, players will settle into a predictable pattern. Organisation will grow and players will try to claim land in a serious way. Obviously, players not being completely stupid, they will learn to only invest time and effort in land they think they can take and hold. That means each realm will concentrate on the islands closest to them first. If you look at the third concept map it suggests players from the realms have invested time and effort in lots of little groups of islands still not linked to their home realm island?
Players don't work that way.
Not only due to the fact that islands like that make great raid targets (as players will learn very quickly) but lots of spread out lands make defence difficult. Fast travel could help in defence - but it actually does more to aid zergers than defenders.
Either way, realms will learn fast that the only winning strategy is to concentrate on one island at a time until it is totally secure - then move on to the next island. Each realm will develop a 'leadership' which directs this - and not in a good way.
Players that dare to go against the will of the 'realm leaders' and attempt to settle an island that is not 'priority 1' will be openly harassed and accused of 'wasting realm resources' etc. A certain group will form in each realm - 'the elite' - and they will expect (and largely be given) priority over other players - to the point other players will be told to move and make way for them. Players that don't will be harrassed. New players will learn that they must either 'tow the line' or be shunned.
This phase will develop from 2months to 6 months after initial release. After a year the 'elite' players will be cemented in positions and impossible to remove. They may wield so much power that even the Devs will be reluctant to stand up to them.
Final stage. How quickly this arrives depends on the players - could be as early as 2-3 months in.
One realm will dominate. The map will be hopelessly unbalanced and so will player populations. The map will have one major 'continent' belonging to the dominant realm with two minor islands belonging to the other realms - possibly just consisting of their safe zone homelands.
Although - it is likely the dominant realm will leave one or two free puzzle pieces floating around just so they have somewhere to raid when they get bored. The only players left in the non-dominant realms will be a few players who enjoy quick hit and run attacks 'for LOLs' and newbies who only last a week or two.
The mechanics actually favour the dominant realm and work against the realms that are losing - if you think about it?
Because if you are part of a dominant realm and all your islands are linked you can move about with less effort than those realms which will require boats to travel from isolated islands.
The ideal 'concept' here presented by CityState assumes player population balance and that players will play contrary to any player behaviour we have seen in the past. MJ should know better.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I am looking forward to this game. I have to say though you do have some very interesting well thought out points. I think from what little I have followed that the answer may be the veil storms? When the larger groups coalesce then the veil storm will affect them more? Idk I am stretching here. What would be a good solution?
Z
Well for a start this is a big mistake
Why bother to claim land?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Well to me these all look like long term "buffs" which don't have an immediate impact on combat, besides probably the last one that is about travel time.
In RvR games, travel time is critical.
The ability to move troops around the world (strategic movement) quickly can make every difference.
In fact, if you want RvR to work then fast travel (effectively shrinking your world) is a bad design decision.
It means that players (and Realms) do not need to make strategic decisions about deployment because they can rapidly move any or all required forces anywhere at any time with no risk or penalty. That is exactly the opposite of what you want.
The most recent example I played to demonstrate this was Pirates of the Burning Sea. The short travel times in that game meant players could almost be everywhere at once. As a result the Realm with the highest population won. Not through smart play, but just through shear numbers.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
While it's all concept, the team specifically says they're going to penalize this sort of play. They don't want it to devolve into "forget about any keep being defended, just hit the easy targets."
I understand and agree with the player tendency you describe. However, the dev team seems to acknowledge this tendency as well, and are actively seeking out ways to change it.
If the plan to making RvR work is "We will have THREE FACTIONS! That will give us balance!" then this game is heading for Epic Fail.
If you want to do a search way back in my post history you will find that Mark Jacobs also thought that balance would sort itself out in WAR too. (He based that on Beta Metrics where players played nice and there was less than 5% -or was it 15%? doesn't really matter - population imbalance)
When the game went live - players stopped playing nice and Order got steam rolled on all but a few servers.
No, I don't have faith in 'modern' MMO players. Particularly in PvP / RvR games. The Killer type player likes to win. Even if that means ultimately killing the game.
PotBS had three main factions too - and a 'spoiler' faction thrown into the mix. No balance there either.
As for factions being able to 'team up'. What players can do, and what they will do are two different things.
Beside which, if the two weaker factions find themselves having to take boat rides to attack the third then coordination becomes a problem - as does where they attack and why. Ultimately, players are selfish, and if they are fighting for resources then sharing is likely to be a problem. Not to mention the dominant faction can play one off against the other - and are more likely to do so since they also have the most dominant leaders (which is how they get in a winning position in the first place).
@MadFrenchie - I know the Dev Team acknowledge the problem - but I am not seeing any real solution from them?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
It's just not an easy problem to solve. Accounting for human behavior is never going to be an exact science, as human behavior is a complex beast.
At least they aren't just leaving it to chance. We'll see if their ideas bring credit upon their MMO. But it's nice to know they recognize that just throwing 3 realms out there isn't going to guarantee there aren't going to be some population and keep trading issues.
great points
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I don't know what to think of this game. They gave us DAoC, but also screwed it up eventually. Have they learned their lesson?
Will have to give it a try to find out I guess.
i hope City-state gives the land-grab debacle of archeAge a good hard look to learn from their mistakes.
overall i'm happy with the way this is shaping up. cautiously optimistic would be the best way to say it. I am overall happy i plopped 50 into the kickstarter tho.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I will keep an eye out for this one.
They definitely need to implement mechanics to prevent 1 server imbalance (massively overpowering the other factions)...
The other thing is I saw someone mentioned "server pride". In my recent experience, people flock to the winning faction as the thing that attract people the most is still the potential rewards.
So rewards > server pride. But then you get this situation where people move where they can win and don't stick to a faction through the bad times.
It takes a mature player base for server pride to work. I don't see this happening.