My idea of immersion is something similar to what Jemcrystal said although not quite to that extent. So are there any mmos were hunger thirst and logging off in a bed are requirements. Also I find graphics generally don’t degrade immersion although first person is a requirement.
Darkfall: Unholy Wars. In my opinion it's like playing a hardcore PVP version I elder scrolls. And it's got some of the best world swish. AND exploration for years, the world is huge!
Originally posted by sludgebeard Darkfall: Unholy Wars. In my opinion it's like playing a hardcore PVP version I elder scrolls. And it's got some of the best world swish. AND exploration for years, the world is huge!
Darkfall might be nice but...
World PvP is the biggest anti-RP immersion breaker ever thought up. There is no reason for you to pop out from behind a bush to kick my ass. I didn't kill your momma. I didn't steal your boyfriend or rape your sister or cuss your ugly tusks. I'm not in line to the throne that only you and I can inherit. And my team vs yours is even less realistic; there is nothing to gain. IRL there has never been a war for the enjoyment of having war; real war is a nightmare no one wants. My muscles/spells are better than yours is annoying childish bullshit. I don't have a reason to kill you - you mean nothing to me. Now if my character could enslave yours for a week and make you work in my sweat shop making magic dildos I might try to fight.
And I read the other people who brought up that running around a world full of heroes on the same exact mission with the same pet(s) at your sides is also a let down. Totally agree.
Elder Scrolls wouldn't have clicked my rp buttons without the Hearthfire expansion. I spent more time building my houses than saving the world from the dragons. I thought the dragons were cool and hoped they ate everyone. Even tho ES is not an mmo we keep thinking about it when we mention role playing. Why is that?
Main problem ist what you think immersion is. For myself most themeparks can't be immersive, since you are one of a million "special snowflakes" rescuing the world from the big bad foozle. TSW did it a bit differently, but I don't know how it is now, since when I hit max lvl I got bored (there is the immersion problem right there: Runnign the same dungeon just for the sake to be able to run it in higher difficulty isn't immersive for me). Rift is a great example for this. The NPCs in the cities can't stop saying "Oh an ascended, they ARE real!". Great, so I am one of 100 special guys? Sentences like that break immersion if you read them for the Xth time.
To me Sandboxes like Ryzom can be immersive, since we all live in one world, writing our stories, interacting with each other while making out way through our RPG-lifes. Open world PvP without consequences for the psychopathic maniac (speaking in character) on the other hand is breaking immersion for me, too. Little things make immersion for me. Mobs that don't have purpose, or are just there to be killed in a quest. I loved Anarchy Online's fauna, reets just flapping about chirping and so on. Ryzom is a great example, too. There are herds of herbivores wandering about in line, carnivores going after them. anything that makes the game feel like a world. For others it is vice versa, everything that makes them feel like an invincible hero immerses them. So this discussion is as good as the discussion about what a "good MMORPG" is.
Originally posted by sludgebeard Darkfall: Unholy Wars. In my opinion it's like playing a hardcore PVP version I elder scrolls. And it's got some of the best world swish. AND exploration for years, the world is huge!
Darkfall might be nice but...
World PvP is the biggest anti-RP immersion breaker ever thought up. There is no reason for you to pop out from behind a bush to kick my ass. I didn't kill your momma. I didn't steal your boyfriend or rape your sister or cuss your ugly tusks. I'm not in line to the throne that only you and I can inherit. And my team vs yours is even less realistic; there is nothing to gain. IRL there has never been a war for the enjoyment of having war; real war is a nightmare no one wants. My muscles/spells are better than yours is annoying childish bullshit. I don't have a reason to kill you - you mean nothing to me. Now if my character could enslave yours for a week and make you work in my sweat shop making magic dildos I might try to fight.
And I read the other people who brought up that running around a world full of heroes on the same exact mission with the same pet(s) at your sides is also a let down. Totally agree.
Elder Scrolls wouldn't have clicked my rp buttons without the Hearthfire expansion. I spent more time building my houses than saving the world from the dragons. I thought the dragons were cool and hoped they ate everyone. Even tho ES is not an mmo we keep thinking about it when we mention role playing. Why is that?
I've been looking for an immersive mmorpg for years now and I agree with everything you say here. PVP can't exist without consequences or it is more immersion breaking than anything. The other things that break immersion just about as bad...
1. Unenforced naming policies - Iwearbigarmor the paladin and Ihealfast the cleric run by.
2. Worldwide chat - huge rp killer. As soon as this was added in MMOs, people stopped talking to the people they met. Everyone you would see would just run on by like you didn't exist. They got their answers from chat, they found their groups in chat, they relaxed in chat. Even when someone wasn't intentionally roleplaying before you couldn't tell. You would find noobs lost in the wrong zone standing at a bridge and they would beg for help getting back to town... it was a blast.
3. Quest directions - Quests are fine but the books and question marks and exclamations over NPC heads destroys the will to talk to other NPCs, or the feeling of adventure when you find a quest you didn't know about.
I want a game with that stuff. I want to wander around in a big fantasy world with no direction, no rush to reach max level, no instructions, where people have no choice but to ask talk to the people around them if they want to talk to someone. I think the reason I game jump now is there is no more immersion. I played my first mmo for 2 years, then the next one (it was 3d was the only reason I switched from the first) for about 5 years. I played EQ2 for a long time too, but they changed it to a wow clone and mismanaged it, and let people xfer to the rp servers so they could have easier shots at contested mobs... mismanagement and lack of direction killed that one for me.
Comments
My idea of immersion is something similar to what Jemcrystal said although not quite to that extent. So are there any mmos were hunger thirst and logging off in a bed are requirements. Also I find graphics generally don’t degrade immersion although first person is a requirement.
Darkfall might be nice but...
World PvP is the biggest anti-RP immersion breaker ever thought up. There is no reason for you to pop out from behind a bush to kick my ass. I didn't kill your momma. I didn't steal your boyfriend or rape your sister or cuss your ugly tusks. I'm not in line to the throne that only you and I can inherit. And my team vs yours is even less realistic; there is nothing to gain. IRL there has never been a war for the enjoyment of having war; real war is a nightmare no one wants. My muscles/spells are better than yours is annoying childish bullshit. I don't have a reason to kill you - you mean nothing to me. Now if my character could enslave yours for a week and make you work in my sweat shop making magic dildos I might try to fight.
And I read the other people who brought up that running around a world full of heroes on the same exact mission with the same pet(s) at your sides is also a let down. Totally agree.
Elder Scrolls wouldn't have clicked my rp buttons without the Hearthfire expansion. I spent more time building my houses than saving the world from the dragons. I thought the dragons were cool and hoped they ate everyone. Even tho ES is not an mmo we keep thinking about it when we mention role playing. Why is that?
Main problem ist what you think immersion is. For myself most themeparks can't be immersive, since you are one of a million "special snowflakes" rescuing the world from the big bad foozle. TSW did it a bit differently, but I don't know how it is now, since when I hit max lvl I got bored (there is the immersion problem right there: Runnign the same dungeon just for the sake to be able to run it in higher difficulty isn't immersive for me). Rift is a great example for this. The NPCs in the cities can't stop saying "Oh an ascended, they ARE real!". Great, so I am one of 100 special guys? Sentences like that break immersion if you read them for the Xth time.
To me Sandboxes like Ryzom can be immersive, since we all live in one world, writing our stories, interacting with each other while making out way through our RPG-lifes. Open world PvP without consequences for the psychopathic maniac (speaking in character) on the other hand is breaking immersion for me, too. Little things make immersion for me. Mobs that don't have purpose, or are just there to be killed in a quest. I loved Anarchy Online's fauna, reets just flapping about chirping and so on. Ryzom is a great example, too. There are herds of herbivores wandering about in line, carnivores going after them. anything that makes the game feel like a world. For others it is vice versa, everything that makes them feel like an invincible hero immerses them. So this discussion is as good as the discussion about what a "good MMORPG" is.
I've been looking for an immersive mmorpg for years now and I agree with everything you say here. PVP can't exist without consequences or it is more immersion breaking than anything. The other things that break immersion just about as bad...
1. Unenforced naming policies - Iwearbigarmor the paladin and Ihealfast the cleric run by.
2. Worldwide chat - huge rp killer. As soon as this was added in MMOs, people stopped talking to the people they met. Everyone you would see would just run on by like you didn't exist. They got their answers from chat, they found their groups in chat, they relaxed in chat. Even when someone wasn't intentionally roleplaying before you couldn't tell. You would find noobs lost in the wrong zone standing at a bridge and they would beg for help getting back to town... it was a blast.
3. Quest directions - Quests are fine but the books and question marks and exclamations over NPC heads destroys the will to talk to other NPCs, or the feeling of adventure when you find a quest you didn't know about.
I want a game with that stuff. I want to wander around in a big fantasy world with no direction, no rush to reach max level, no instructions, where people have no choice but to ask talk to the people around them if they want to talk to someone. I think the reason I game jump now is there is no more immersion. I played my first mmo for 2 years, then the next one (it was 3d was the only reason I switched from the first) for about 5 years. I played EQ2 for a long time too, but they changed it to a wow clone and mismanaged it, and let people xfer to the rp servers so they could have easier shots at contested mobs... mismanagement and lack of direction killed that one for me.