And ironicly after my epic quest from 2001 with MMORPG's I'm back to my first...Anyways, these are some of the top reasons people think why we are in this state.
#1 Saturated market, too many options, spread players across, bigger competition, etc, etc..
#2 Too many programs/ways today to cheat/exploit/bot/multibox/spam etc in a game...
#3 Was recently reported that there are around 24.5 mil MMORPG subscribers in the WORLD.
#4 Private sector. Devlopers can't develop what they want, depend on publishers, etc..Too many things to spend # on from marketing, CEO's, and so forth.
#5 Becoming more expensive to build em, programmers, graphic artists, writers, voice actors and so forth.
#6 Bugs, bugs, bugs which are product of mainly of rushed, untested products or games developed by amateur/cheaper programmers.
#7 Bad directions, choices, ideas by the lead designers.
#8 Too many players out there seem to enjoy playing cheaply, repetitive games over MMORPG's like RTS, FPS, MOBAs, card games and so forth...
#9 Forums like these keep exposing the flaws and trashing games that are out within first month, alerting and notifying others why the game won't last.
I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...
Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.
So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.
I for once have not spent a DIME in the last 3 years, 6 months and 1 week on any new MMORPG that came and I wasn't the reason, I wasn't burnt out or anything. I simply did not find a product I see myself playing and I moved along as many out there.
The only way this genre will go forward is us the gamers are resilient and cautious with our $. It's our only way we can vote and when people don't pay for MMORPG's it doesn't mean there is no MARKET out there. It simply means there has been no publisher/developer out there capable to create/capture a market.
Thats not one simple reason like the title says.
But i can give you one simple reason, its called Greed.
These games are now nothing but cash grabs, they are made with full intention of going free to play later down the road. They start off with a sub and box price to maximize profit, then milk the subs as long as possible. Then lay off Devs delay content and tell everybody its because they arnt making enough money and soon will be going free to play.
And why does this happen you may ask? because these games hold no value past the first couple months, you can be max level and doing the " end game " wich is normally a couple instances or some lame zoned pvp that keeps peoples attention for maybe a month. and after a few months there is the mass exodus. and everybody is off to the next cash grab shiny.
I guess in the end is really our own fault.
If people didnt buy shit, they would stop trying to sell us shit.
I have to agree with you. I'd blame F2P for the ensuing greed. If you look at F2P as a whole, they can put a price on whatever they choose to since the service itself is free. A prime example is customer service. When you subscribe, if something happens to your account, the company HAS to do something about it and has to explain if something could not be done about it. F2P can honestly sell you customer service. I think Sony does that with their games, where you only get automated help if you are a free user. This lowers the need for personnel as well. So say you get hacked on a f2p account, then that's pretty much it depending on the company, or wait weeks/months for them to respond. B2P didn't used to be so bad cause you could buy the game and they wouldn't release junk till the following expansion. Now they have cash shops or sold separate content which will make more money vs an expansion. So pretty much you're buying to play a game for free. Companies are so focused around greed, its ridiculous and dumb people like myself support it. Its honestly only a matter of time before TESO and Wildstar go f2p or at least b2p like TSW. SE is too stubborn and greedy in their own way to go f2p, but honestly they don't need to since they have other sources of income, unlike other companies except Blizzard and Sony.
Greed belongs in my simple reason because greed is a lack of a SKILL/DRIVE to develop a great, epic MMORPG. Their drive is to milk/earn $, even on the cost of ruining their (whatever quality of product they deliver) and that backfires to them. $ comes by itself with a great/epic/successful product.
At the end this is only a great opportunity for others out there to creature and capture a market. One thing is certain those who will do that will have a different and distinct approach compared to what we've been seeing over the decade.
Reality is MMORPG for most are too complex of a project to undertake, but those few who've done good job with them over the last 15 years showed us the potential and what they can offer. I believe one day, sadly many years from now some companies will make such advanced and complex MMORPG's that will average 10-30 mil of subs in North America and Europe itself.
The number of subs a MMO can gain, how big of a market can lure/create and maintain reflects how good and capable the company was at delivering their product. It's as simple as that...and for some it might look far too complex to undertake such project, but then we've seen that a kid with higher IQ can solve a far complex math progrem and make it look like a cake...
Evolution takes time and we have to continue to wait until the right people are involved with these products. Too many out there apparently think they were right, but reality shows otherwise in creating MMO's. We will just have to see the filtering and shuffle do its thing and we will be back in the golden age.
For most "World of Warcraft" was a learning curve. It taught many that copying a product is not the way. This field is about creativity and innovation. Investing small $ and not taking risks and hoping to hit the lottery is clearly not the way to approach. Squaresoft, Blizzard are best examples how far a company can go and how much revenue it can generate when you create something UNIQUE, FRESH and DIFFERENT.
Star Craft, Diablo, Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft made these companies sky rocket to success and guess what all those games were truly UNIQUE, FRESH and developed by people who truly love gaming. The saddest part of all this is that companies can't even get a mil of subs with using one of the most appealing and successful IP's like Elder Scroll, Star Wars, etc.
Every software that is sufficently complex has bugs. But many bugs in games, especially MMOs, are not because of this. Given what the developers created, i don't tnink it's "not skilled enough". Many bugs are probably due to not having enough time to fix stuff for good. Others, i don't know.
Some devs, like Cryptic, like to break something with each update - something they (according to change log) never touched. Not sure what to make of this. Maybe they wanted to change something, but didn't have enough time to finish it, and instead of reverting the changes, they are simply left as is. And as it's not done, it doesn't go to the change log. Idk.
Many things are also not bugs, but simply stupid design choices. It often starts with the installer, when the game insinst on adding "random" folders, like you want it to go to c:/Games/Game_Title, but it quietly creates c:/Games/Publisher_Name/Developer_Name/Games/Online_Games/Game_Title. And if you manually fix paths, including registry, it complains "Folder Publisher_Name" not found.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Every software that is sufficently complex has bugs. But many bugs in games, especially MMOs, are not because of this. Given what the developers created, i don't tnink it's "not skilled enough". Many bugs are probably due to not having enough time to fix stuff for good. Others, i don't know.
Some devs, like Cryptic, like to break something with each update - something they (according to change log) never touched. Not sure what to make of this. Maybe they wanted to change something, but didn't have enough time to finish it, and instead of reverting the changes, they are simply left as is. And as it's not done, it doesn't go to the change log. Idk.
Many things are also not bugs, but simply stupid design choices. It often starts with the installer, when the game insinst on adding "random" folders, like you want it to go to c:/Games/Game_Title, but it quietly creates c:/Games/Publisher_Name/Developer_Name/Games/Online_Games/Game_Title. And if you manually fix paths, including registry, it complains "Folder Publisher_Name" not found.
I would think that having switched from paid game testers to game testers having to pay to test the game has a lot to do with this. Getting paid to find something as opposed to paying to find something is at odds from the very beginning.
I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...
Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.
So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.
I for once have not spent a DIME in the last 3 years, 6 months and 1 week on any new MMORPG that came and I wasn't the reason, I wasn't burnt out or anything. I simply did not find a product I see myself playing and I moved along as many out there.
The only way this genre will go forward is us the gamers are resilient and cautious with our $. It's our only way we can vote and when people don't pay for MMORPG's it doesn't mean there is no MARKET out there. It simply means there has been no publisher/developer out there capable to create/capture a market.
The people that created the oldtime mmorpg's didn't create a massive mmorpg market, what the oldtime games had was a niche market. You speak of one EPIC mmorpg that will change the market in radical fashion and will expand it to heights that hasn't previously been seen, but you seem to forget that we already had that one game back in 2004, it was called World Of Warcraft.
What we need are more solid niche MMORPG's, we don't need another WoW.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
You mean the state in which there is more players in the genre then every before? Or the state in which MMO studio's proceeds and revenue match or vie with other genre's studios? Or what about the state in which there are more MMO's and access to them is at it's greatest ever!
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The games don't cost more to build... the cost of inflation has gone up. You're comparing 2014 dollars with 2004 dollars. Not even a valid reason because no business can stay in business if the cost of doing business exceeds the return... so in short, it doesn't cost more to build them. That's a farce.
I don't think your assessment is correct.
Inflation has gone up but if you were to pay 200 million for a game now (the high end of what we see bandied about) that would be about 159 million in 2004.
So everquest cost about 3 million to make in 1999. in 2014 dollars that's 4.2 million. Yet most mmo's are being made for much more than 4.2 million.
What goes into making today's mmo's seems to dwarf what went into them in the early days. And that's why video game companies need more money.
Whether one likes that or not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The games don't cost more to build... the cost of inflation has gone up. You're comparing 2014 dollars with 2004 dollars. Not even a valid reason because no business can stay in business if the cost of doing business exceeds the return... so in short, it doesn't cost more to build them. That's a farce.
I don't think your assessment is correct.
Inflation has gone up but if you were to pay 200 million for a game now (the high end of what we see bandied about) that would be about 159 million in 2004.
So everquest cost about 3 million to make in 1999. in 2014 dollars that's 4.2 million. Yet most mmo's are being made for much more than 4.2 million.
What goes into making today's mmo's seems to dwarf what went into them in the early days. And that's why video game companies need more money.
Whether one likes that or not.
There's also the very simple fact that it takes six times longer to build the graphics assets compared to just a single generation difference in game development, never mind all the changes in graphics engines since 2004.
**
That's just the different between UDK2 vs UDK3.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Blah blah blah..... MMO's haven't moved forward ....blah blah blah.
Maybe you should try stating in your post exactly what "moving forward" means?
Lets take a look at the automobile. It has been around for about 100 and more years. Would you say that the automobile has not moved forward? Everything about them is improved. And yet automobiles still have 4 wheels and internal combustion engines for the most part. In fact they have been refined, and features have been added to them.
It is much the same for MMO's, although they have been around a much shorter time. But compare graphics from 15 years ago. Features have been added but basically the design is similar much the same as automotive design relies on a basic platform.
Unless you can point to something that you think would change MMO's dramatically ( and this is the problem, it has to be feasible, not some pie in the sky, make all MMO's sandboxes,.... blah blah blah...) then your post has no valid meaning.
You are simply wishing for a unicorn to appear.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And ironicly after my epic quest from 2001 with MMORPG's I'm back to my first...Anyways, these are some of the top reasons people think why we are in this state.
#1 Saturated market, too many options, spread players across, bigger competition, etc, etc..
#2 Too many programs/ways today to cheat/exploit/bot/multibox/spam etc in a game...
#3 Was recently reported that there are around 24.5 mil MMORPG subscribers in the WORLD.
#4 Private sector. Devlopers can't develop what they want, depend on publishers, etc..Too many things to spend # on from marketing, CEO's, and so forth.
#5 Becoming more expensive to build em, programmers, graphic artists, writers, voice actors and so forth.
#6 Bugs, bugs, bugs which are product of mainly of rushed, untested products or games developed by amateur/cheaper programmers.
#7 Bad directions, choices, ideas by the lead designers.
#8 Too many players out there seem to enjoy playing cheaply, repetitive games over MMORPG's like RTS, FPS, MOBAs, card games and so forth...
#9 Forums like these keep exposing the flaws and trashing games that are out within first month, alerting and notifying others why the game won't last.
there. It simply means there has been no publisher/developer out there capable to create/capture a market.
1) I agree this is why Sub fees need to go.
2) I agree. But what's the solution?
3) that's more than enough to go around. A game world only need about 2k players to feel alive.
4) this could be a problem. what's the solution?
5) why are things getting more expensive when tools are making things less costly to make? That doesn't make sense unless greed is involved.
6) games like MMOs have always had bugs. I don't see why it is only effecting the community now and not before. Hey look at Elder Scrolls games which are very buggy yet that never stopped them from success.
7) agreed.
8) but why is that? That's what we should be asking.
9) are you really blaming the critics on the forums for the games being bad? WoW has lots of critics yet.... Nvm you get my point. I believe the Forum Fanboys do more damage. Their was an article a few years ago talking about how damaging Fanboys are for MMO because they cosign the problems mentioned in number 7, and shield it from the criticism that could have actually saved it from making a bad launch impression. We saw this with SWTOR, GW2, Warhammer, ESO, Rift,etc.
10) I agree and disagree. It's all about how the bad community is used.
Reality is MMORPG for most are too complex of a project to undertake, but those few who've done good job with them over the last 15 years showed us the potential and what they can offer. I believe one day, sadly many years from now some companies will make such advanced and complex MMORPG's that will average 10-30 mil of subs in North America and Europe itself.
The number of subs a MMO can gain, how big of a market can lure/create and maintain reflects how good and capable the company was at delivering their product. It's as simple as that...and for some it might look far too complex to undertake such project, but then we've seen that a kid with higher IQ can solve a far complex math progrem and make it look like a cake...
Evolution takes time and we have to continue to wait until the right people are involved with these products. Too many out there apparently think they were right, but reality shows otherwise in creating MMO's. We will just have to see the filtering and shuffle do its thing and we will be back in the golden age.
For most "World of Warcraft" was a learning curve. It taught many that copying a product is not the way. This field is about creativity and innovation. Investing small $ and not taking risks and hoping to hit the lottery is clearly not the way to approach. Squaresoft, Blizzard are best examples how far a company can go and how much revenue it can generate when you create something UNIQUE, FRESH and DIFFERENT.
Star Craft, Diablo, Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft made these companies sky rocket to success and guess what all those games were truly UNIQUE, FRESH and developed by people who truly love gaming. The saddest part of all this is that companies can't even get a mil of subs with using one of the most appealing and successful IP's like Elder Scroll, Star Wars, etc.
Yup, right now we are at a time where developers are disillusioned that games can be completely built through analytics. This is why we see so many copy paste games. I do agree that someday we will see something new and refreshing, but I feel that it won't come about until some new revolutionary piece of technology comes about.
I firmly believe there are no publishers left that want to invest a large amount of money into a project that they can not estimate a favorable return.
I agree with the premise of the post Kopo, even most of the points you made. My problem comes in with: How do we fix it? What can we do as consumers, if anything? We have no unified voice, everyone has a different opinion about what innovation is, and means. We are all over the place with our wants and desires for games that developers eventually cave to player demand, only to find out half the players wanted something completely different.
It's nice to live in a day and age where we, as players and consumers of the video game industry, can influence changes in the games we love through feedback etc. At what cost have we achieved this ability though? Was the cost too steep in anyone else's opinion? I feel like we enjoyed games like EQ, DAoC, etc. more because the developer knew what was best for the game, and made changes as necessary.
Are we really qualified as simple players to demand changes to a game that usually end up hurting the game in the long run through mechanics, sub retention, etc?
I have a ton of questions on this topic but don't want to derail Kopo's thread with it. Anyone else's input on any of these questions would be awesome, as I'm wondering if we wouldn't be better off altogether to let the developers take control of their products again.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Your title boldly declares 1 reason yet you list so many.
You didn't read the very first sentence after the list he gave did you?
Newsflash, the list numbered 10 are not the OP's particular views, read the first damn sentence after the list and you'll understand the point. Stop arguing with the OP about the list of 10 that may or may not even be their view.
#8 Too many players out there seem to enjoy playing cheaply, repetitive MMORPG's and keep buying them no matter. (Also, IMHO, this should be the #1 reason)
No the argument is not valid because one company is not responsible for what another company chooses to do it how they choose to do it. The second company makes their own decisions for their own reasons and they are responsible for them
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The premise of this thread is flawed, since it talks about fixing the mmorpg genre.
I don't give a rats ass about how successful the mmorpg genre is, all I care about is having one single mmorpg that I enjoy playing for more than a few months. I don't need 100 million players to enjoy the genre, just like players of everquest didn't need 13.8 million players to enjoy their game.
You know what the early mmorpg's like UO, EQ, AC, DaoC and SWG all shared and made those games successful. Compare that to what WoW, Rift, Swtor, FF14v2, gw2, neverwinter, ESO and Wildstar share.
I can't really say what the old games all had in common, but modern games aim for mostly the same kind of crowd and so they are strealined and have mostly the same kind of content. There might be some variations, but they are mostly just more of the same.
If I take a look at the near future mmo's I am far more hopeful to find a game.. Everquest next, camelot unchained, pathfinder online, black desert, star citizen and shroud of the avatar promises to satisfy players that don't look for the themepark experience of streamlined singleplayer story just to hit the same kind of endgame that every other game has.
The variation of future games makes me hopeful my MMO draught might come to an end. If not I will just stick to singleplayer rpg's, with so many kickstarters, dai, witcher 3, cyberpunk 2077, future fallout and mass effect games I should get enough of rpg goodness.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Argument is valid when someone who doesn't even make the game is looking for a scapegoat as to why the game doesn't fit their idea of a perfect game. We have no control over anything they do, but we seem to think we have a voice in what they do. We don't.
Blame Blizzard. Don't blame Blizzard. Blame your cat. Don't blame your cat. The argument is still valid because you are merely placing blame somewhere... that's all the argument does. Put words out there... nothing more.
"Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it."
I do not know if you realize how utterly offensive and depressing it sounds to a developer. As a developer, hearing that the audience base, that we've spent 2-3 years of our lives developing, consider us uncaring, unskilled, or inexperienced. Do you even comprehend the kind of money that is involved in modern development, and why? Do you even understand what it takes to get an mmorpg out and hope, absolutely hope, that you'd make a return on that?
So let me give you our perspective on it: We're investing sometimes up to a hundred million dollars to create a product that would attract YOU, the gamer. An investment like that doesn't come lightly, most game companies do not have the capital to invest into something like that, and often times have to seek out investors. Investors demand a return on their investment; the higher the cost the higher the return. No sane game company will spend 100 million without needing to deliver a quality product, in return, or risk complete bankruptcy. And there is no way you're going to get a quality product by hiring people who aren't dedicated, who aren't experienced, and who aren't unskilled.
So let me lay it on you brother. You "hardcore" gamers (since you seem to be the spokesman for them), in general, are the biggest whining snobs, the most self righteous, flimsy group of people to ever have to cater to. The sheer utter demands you place - and the sheer utter expectation is impossible standard to ever meet. SO guess what a lot of MMORPGs that are being developer realized - instead of catering to this small group of hardcore mmorpg players in US, let's target the average gamer all around the world. And guess what; they are more than happy to spend their money on our product. And guess what, that makes us happy. It makes me happy when someone is playing my game and enjoying it. It makes me euphoric when someone can look at some trees, or ruins, or plants I modeled and textured and someone is playing in.
Developers have to bite their tongue, have to keep it quiet, and take the criticism no matter how stupid it is. But then there are times when someone has the chutzpah to come out and say "You know what, I don't know who's working for who, but I assume because they aren't producing MY EPIC GAME, they are clearly inexperienced, unskilled, and uncaring".
So, this may go against the forum code of conduct, and may cause me to be suspended, I don't care. But if that is your attitude, which right here it clearly is then I have two words for you.
Comments
I have to agree with you. I'd blame F2P for the ensuing greed. If you look at F2P as a whole, they can put a price on whatever they choose to since the service itself is free. A prime example is customer service. When you subscribe, if something happens to your account, the company HAS to do something about it and has to explain if something could not be done about it. F2P can honestly sell you customer service. I think Sony does that with their games, where you only get automated help if you are a free user. This lowers the need for personnel as well. So say you get hacked on a f2p account, then that's pretty much it depending on the company, or wait weeks/months for them to respond. B2P didn't used to be so bad cause you could buy the game and they wouldn't release junk till the following expansion. Now they have cash shops or sold separate content which will make more money vs an expansion. So pretty much you're buying to play a game for free. Companies are so focused around greed, its ridiculous and dumb people like myself support it. Its honestly only a matter of time before TESO and Wildstar go f2p or at least b2p like TSW. SE is too stubborn and greedy in their own way to go f2p, but honestly they don't need to since they have other sources of income, unlike other companies except Blizzard and Sony.
Greed belongs in my simple reason because greed is a lack of a SKILL/DRIVE to develop a great, epic MMORPG. Their drive is to milk/earn $, even on the cost of ruining their (whatever quality of product they deliver) and that backfires to them. $ comes by itself with a great/epic/successful product.
At the end this is only a great opportunity for others out there to creature and capture a market. One thing is certain those who will do that will have a different and distinct approach compared to what we've been seeing over the decade.
So the TL:DR; is..
Everyone who was capable of making good MMOs made lots of money and got married to hotties and stopped caring about MMO development?
I can tip my hat to that theory.
I myself blame great programmers going into better fields and hardware basically leveling out.
a yo ho ho
Reality is MMORPG for most are too complex of a project to undertake, but those few who've done good job with them over the last 15 years showed us the potential and what they can offer. I believe one day, sadly many years from now some companies will make such advanced and complex MMORPG's that will average 10-30 mil of subs in North America and Europe itself.
The number of subs a MMO can gain, how big of a market can lure/create and maintain reflects how good and capable the company was at delivering their product. It's as simple as that...and for some it might look far too complex to undertake such project, but then we've seen that a kid with higher IQ can solve a far complex math progrem and make it look like a cake...
Evolution takes time and we have to continue to wait until the right people are involved with these products. Too many out there apparently think they were right, but reality shows otherwise in creating MMO's. We will just have to see the filtering and shuffle do its thing and we will be back in the golden age.
For most "World of Warcraft" was a learning curve. It taught many that copying a product is not the way. This field is about creativity and innovation. Investing small $ and not taking risks and hoping to hit the lottery is clearly not the way to approach. Squaresoft, Blizzard are best examples how far a company can go and how much revenue it can generate when you create something UNIQUE, FRESH and DIFFERENT.
Star Craft, Diablo, Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft made these companies sky rocket to success and guess what all those games were truly UNIQUE, FRESH and developed by people who truly love gaming. The saddest part of all this is that companies can't even get a mil of subs with using one of the most appealing and successful IP's like Elder Scroll, Star Wars, etc.
Every software that is sufficently complex has bugs. But many bugs in games, especially MMOs, are not because of this. Given what the developers created, i don't tnink it's "not skilled enough". Many bugs are probably due to not having enough time to fix stuff for good. Others, i don't know.
Some devs, like Cryptic, like to break something with each update - something they (according to change log) never touched. Not sure what to make of this. Maybe they wanted to change something, but didn't have enough time to finish it, and instead of reverting the changes, they are simply left as is. And as it's not done, it doesn't go to the change log. Idk.
Many things are also not bugs, but simply stupid design choices. It often starts with the installer, when the game insinst on adding "random" folders, like you want it to go to c:/Games/Game_Title, but it quietly creates c:/Games/Publisher_Name/Developer_Name/Games/Online_Games/Game_Title. And if you manually fix paths, including registry, it complains "Folder Publisher_Name" not found.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
I would think that having switched from paid game testers to game testers having to pay to test the game has a lot to do with this. Getting paid to find something as opposed to paying to find something is at odds from the very beginning.
The people that created the oldtime mmorpg's didn't create a massive mmorpg market, what the oldtime games had was a niche market. You speak of one EPIC mmorpg that will change the market in radical fashion and will expand it to heights that hasn't previously been seen, but you seem to forget that we already had that one game back in 2004, it was called World Of Warcraft.
What we need are more solid niche MMORPG's, we don't need another WoW.
You mean the state in which there is more players in the genre then every before? Or the state in which MMO studio's proceeds and revenue match or vie with other genre's studios? Or what about the state in which there are more MMO's and access to them is at it's greatest ever!
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't think your assessment is correct.
Inflation has gone up but if you were to pay 200 million for a game now (the high end of what we see bandied about) that would be about 159 million in 2004.
So everquest cost about 3 million to make in 1999. in 2014 dollars that's 4.2 million. Yet most mmo's are being made for much more than 4.2 million.
What goes into making today's mmo's seems to dwarf what went into them in the early days. And that's why video game companies need more money.
Whether one likes that or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There's also the very simple fact that it takes six times longer to build the graphics assets compared to just a single generation difference in game development, never mind all the changes in graphics engines since 2004.
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That's just the different between UDK2 vs UDK3.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Blah blah blah..... MMO's haven't moved forward ....blah blah blah.
Maybe you should try stating in your post exactly what "moving forward" means?
Lets take a look at the automobile. It has been around for about 100 and more years. Would you say that the automobile has not moved forward? Everything about them is improved. And yet automobiles still have 4 wheels and internal combustion engines for the most part. In fact they have been refined, and features have been added to them.
It is much the same for MMO's, although they have been around a much shorter time. But compare graphics from 15 years ago. Features have been added but basically the design is similar much the same as automotive design relies on a basic platform.
Unless you can point to something that you think would change MMO's dramatically ( and this is the problem, it has to be feasible, not some pie in the sky, make all MMO's sandboxes,.... blah blah blah...) then your post has no valid meaning.
You are simply wishing for a unicorn to appear.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
1) I agree this is why Sub fees need to go.
2) I agree. But what's the solution?
3) that's more than enough to go around. A game world only need about 2k players to feel alive.
4) this could be a problem. what's the solution?
5) why are things getting more expensive when tools are making things less costly to make? That doesn't make sense unless greed is involved.
6) games like MMOs have always had bugs. I don't see why it is only effecting the community now and not before. Hey look at Elder Scrolls games which are very buggy yet that never stopped them from success.
7) agreed.
8) but why is that? That's what we should be asking.
9) are you really blaming the critics on the forums for the games being bad? WoW has lots of critics yet.... Nvm you get my point. I believe the Forum Fanboys do more damage. Their was an article a few years ago talking about how damaging Fanboys are for MMO because they cosign the problems mentioned in number 7, and shield it from the criticism that could have actually saved it from making a bad launch impression. We saw this with SWTOR, GW2, Warhammer, ESO, Rift,etc.
10) I agree and disagree. It's all about how the bad community is used.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Yup, right now we are at a time where developers are disillusioned that games can be completely built through analytics. This is why we see so many copy paste games. I do agree that someday we will see something new and refreshing, but I feel that it won't come about until some new revolutionary piece of technology comes about.
I firmly believe there are no publishers left that want to invest a large amount of money into a project that they can not estimate a favorable return.
I agree with the premise of the post Kopo, even most of the points you made. My problem comes in with: How do we fix it? What can we do as consumers, if anything? We have no unified voice, everyone has a different opinion about what innovation is, and means. We are all over the place with our wants and desires for games that developers eventually cave to player demand, only to find out half the players wanted something completely different.
It's nice to live in a day and age where we, as players and consumers of the video game industry, can influence changes in the games we love through feedback etc. At what cost have we achieved this ability though? Was the cost too steep in anyone else's opinion? I feel like we enjoyed games like EQ, DAoC, etc. more because the developer knew what was best for the game, and made changes as necessary.
Are we really qualified as simple players to demand changes to a game that usually end up hurting the game in the long run through mechanics, sub retention, etc?
I have a ton of questions on this topic but don't want to derail Kopo's thread with it. Anyone else's input on any of these questions would be awesome, as I'm wondering if we wouldn't be better off altogether to let the developers take control of their products again.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
You didn't read the very first sentence after the list he gave did you?
Newsflash, the list numbered 10 are not the OP's particular views, read the first damn sentence after the list and you'll understand the point. Stop arguing with the OP about the list of 10 that may or may not even be their view.
We blame Blizzard because they are the behemoth...
We blame Microsoft for the very same reasons...
The bigger you are, the bigger the target...
Gotta blame someone... but the arguments are still valid no matter who you insert into the blame slot.
Fixed that for you.
The premise of this thread is flawed, since it talks about fixing the mmorpg genre.
I don't give a rats ass about how successful the mmorpg genre is, all I care about is having one single mmorpg that I enjoy playing for more than a few months. I don't need 100 million players to enjoy the genre, just like players of everquest didn't need 13.8 million players to enjoy their game.
You know what the early mmorpg's like UO, EQ, AC, DaoC and SWG all shared and made those games successful. Compare that to what WoW, Rift, Swtor, FF14v2, gw2, neverwinter, ESO and Wildstar share.
I can't really say what the old games all had in common, but modern games aim for mostly the same kind of crowd and so they are strealined and have mostly the same kind of content. There might be some variations, but they are mostly just more of the same.
If I take a look at the near future mmo's I am far more hopeful to find a game.. Everquest next, camelot unchained, pathfinder online, black desert, star citizen and shroud of the avatar promises to satisfy players that don't look for the themepark experience of streamlined singleplayer story just to hit the same kind of endgame that every other game has.
The variation of future games makes me hopeful my MMO draught might come to an end. If not I will just stick to singleplayer rpg's, with so many kickstarters, dai, witcher 3, cyberpunk 2077, future fallout and mass effect games I should get enough of rpg goodness.
Argument is valid when someone who doesn't even make the game is looking for a scapegoat as to why the game doesn't fit their idea of a perfect game. We have no control over anything they do, but we seem to think we have a voice in what they do. We don't.
Blame Blizzard. Don't blame Blizzard. Blame your cat. Don't blame your cat. The argument is still valid because you are merely placing blame somewhere... that's all the argument does. Put words out there... nothing more.
The problem is that MMO is a genre. A very strict genre at that. There's little innovation or anything that turns the "genre" on its side.
It's like a Madden game. Every year same thing minor tweeks,
"Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it."
I do not know if you realize how utterly offensive and depressing it sounds to a developer. As a developer, hearing that the audience base, that we've spent 2-3 years of our lives developing, consider us uncaring, unskilled, or inexperienced. Do you even comprehend the kind of money that is involved in modern development, and why? Do you even understand what it takes to get an mmorpg out and hope, absolutely hope, that you'd make a return on that?
So let me give you our perspective on it: We're investing sometimes up to a hundred million dollars to create a product that would attract YOU, the gamer. An investment like that doesn't come lightly, most game companies do not have the capital to invest into something like that, and often times have to seek out investors. Investors demand a return on their investment; the higher the cost the higher the return. No sane game company will spend 100 million without needing to deliver a quality product, in return, or risk complete bankruptcy. And there is no way you're going to get a quality product by hiring people who aren't dedicated, who aren't experienced, and who aren't unskilled.
So let me lay it on you brother. You "hardcore" gamers (since you seem to be the spokesman for them), in general, are the biggest whining snobs, the most self righteous, flimsy group of people to ever have to cater to. The sheer utter demands you place - and the sheer utter expectation is impossible standard to ever meet. SO guess what a lot of MMORPGs that are being developer realized - instead of catering to this small group of hardcore mmorpg players in US, let's target the average gamer all around the world. And guess what; they are more than happy to spend their money on our product. And guess what, that makes us happy. It makes me happy when someone is playing my game and enjoying it. It makes me euphoric when someone can look at some trees, or ruins, or plants I modeled and textured and someone is playing in.
Developers have to bite their tongue, have to keep it quiet, and take the criticism no matter how stupid it is. But then there are times when someone has the chutzpah to come out and say "You know what, I don't know who's working for who, but I assume because they aren't producing MY EPIC GAME, they are clearly inexperienced, unskilled, and uncaring".
So, this may go against the forum code of conduct, and may cause me to be suspended, I don't care. But if that is your attitude, which right here it clearly is then I have two words for you.
Fuck. You.
-Chewy-