When OP mentioned: "Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG"was the moment this topic lost it's true meaning to me.
Originally posted by UOlover The only reason is everyone decided to copy EQ instead of UO
Yes exactly, but why was that? One word Freedom... (or lack there of) I'm done beating around the bush about it. We are the direct cause of that direction. EQ was based on content, UO was based on players. Players abused those systems to ruin the game for others, and for simply nothing more than their own shits and giggles. No different than your common troll, who makes life hell on forums.
People still abuse these systems today for the same reason, EVE is rampant with it, people avoid indie FFA games like the plague, who wants to be an accessory in someones balls to chin fantasy?
Making a game based around content is logical from a business perspective. Making a game that makes these folks the content is not... ANd that's exactly what they fear, they don't want the wolves ruining their chances at success. UO and games like that require communal players, without them the game is nothing. That's a huge risk to weight millions in corporate/invested funds on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by UOlover The only reason is everyone decided to copy EQ instead of UO
Yes exactly, but why was that?
Because UO was a bad game There, I said it. Most people didn't even bother with it, it didn't had the power to draw in people who never had experience with multiplayers that much. So they began to make better games, that made millions of people interested. And the selected few that actually liked this game found their home here on this forum, to start the endless complaining
Originally posted by UOlover The only reason is everyone decided to copy EQ instead of UO
Yes exactly, but why was that?
Because UO was a bad game There, I said it. Most people didn't even bother with it, it didn't had the power to draw in people who never had experience with multiplayers that much. So they began to make better games, that made millions of people interested. And the selected few that actually liked this game found their home here on this forum, to start the endless complaining
#4 Did not have popular IP unlike Warcraft/SWG and so forth.
#5 Was launched when games like Diablo, Star Craft, Counter Strike, Half Life were at their prime.
#6 The term MMORPG was still something new and unfamiliar to most.
#7 The online market was significantly smaller since back then. PC's were not affordable by everyone and there was still dial up internet connections.
Yet, after some of these reasons the game had 250,000 monthly subs and you're saying UO was a bad game and most people didn't even bother with it. On the contrary, those few, the older, the first and fortunate that did bother with it got to enjoy a truly exceptional game and thanks to that opportunity they still are doing it today.
The fact you fell short of mentioning what these "better MMO's of yours" offered than what Ultima Online did beside the 3D just further proves how flawed your post was. I mean the guy who made it happen "Richard Garriott" was able to afford a 10 day, 30 mil trip to space thanks to its success...
Originally posted by UOlover The only reason is everyone decided to copy EQ instead of UO
Yes exactly, but why was that?
Because UO was a bad game There, I said it. Most people didn't even bother with it, it didn't had the power to draw in people who never had experience with multiplayers that much. So they began to make better games, that made millions of people interested. And the selected few that actually liked this game found their home here on this forum, to start the endless complaining
#4 Did not have popular IP unlike Warcraft/SWG and so forth.
#5 Was launched when games like Diablo, Star Craft, Counter Strike, Half Life were at their prime.
#6 The term MMORPG was still something new and unfamiliar to most.
#7 The online market was significantly smaller since back then. PC's were not affordable by everyone and there was still dial up internet connections.
Yet, after some of these reasons the game had 250,000 monthly subs and you're saying UO was a bad game and most people didn't even bother with it. On the contrary, those few, the older, the first and fortunate that did bother with it got to enjoy a truly exceptional game and thanks to that opportunity they still are doing it today.
The fact you fell short of mentioning what these "better MMO's of yours" offered than what Ultima Online did beside the 3D just further proves how flawed your post was. I mean the guy who made it happen "Richard Garriott" was able to afford a 10 day, 30 mil trip to space thanks to its success...
Oh I get it, this a UO was better than every other MMO threads... the title is so misleading. Question is, is it a WoW killer? Discuss.
I work 40 hours a week ,I have 25 hours of school, a girlfriend, and other hobbies. I don't have time to waste playing timesinks with bad gameplay and terrible communities.
That's all good and well, but it's your job, deal with it. If you don't like negative feedback, get out of the service industry. Coming here and telling gamers to screw off because of inferior product design fixes nothing and just gives them more fuel for their fire against developers. Blaming the developers for everything is wrong, blaming the consumers for everything is also wrong. Both parties are at fault, and developers aren't infallible. Learn to roll with the punches, learn from negative feedback, and use it on your next project. It's literally that easy.
Coming here and stamping your feet like a 12 year old solved nothing, and I'm sure just gave them even more ammunition to blame developers for why most MMO's fail now.
Do you go to a resturaunt and treat the staff like utter shit because it's their job to service you? Do you just say it's their job to be treated like crap?
I don't mind it when people criticize a game. I don't mind it when they give negative feedback. But to imply that we as developers do not care about these products? That we are don't care about the audience that is going to enjoy our product? That's absurd, and personally very insulting. It's not a negative criticism, it is an accusation that is wholly unfounded. It shows clear and utter disrespect towards the people that spend countless hours developing these games for you.
Negative feedback is good and all when it actually makes sense and when it is actually something players genuine see. But most of them don't know what the hell they are talking about. Most are inconsistant about even what they want out of an mmo, and any new feature that is introduced is held under such a tight microscope companies do not want to risk alienating a player base because of it.
Simply put. Companies respond to how gamers spend money. Not what they say. Knowing that. Show these companies with your pockets.
Originally posted by UOlover The only reason is everyone decided to copy EQ instead of UO
Yes exactly, but why was that?
Because UO was a bad game There, I said it. Most people didn't even bother with it, it didn't had the power to draw in people who never had experience with multiplayers that much. So they began to make better games, that made millions of people interested. And the selected few that actually liked this game found their home here on this forum, to start the endless complaining
#4 Did not have popular IP unlike Warcraft/SWG and so forth.
#5 Was launched when games like Diablo, Star Craft, Counter Strike, Half Life were at their prime.
#6 The term MMORPG was still something new and unfamiliar to most.
#7 The online market was significantly smaller since back then. PC's were not affordable by everyone and there was still dial up internet connections.
Yet, after some of these reasons the game had 250,000 monthly subs and you're saying UO was a bad game and most people didn't even bother with it. On the contrary, those few, the older, the first and fortunate that did bother with it got to enjoy a truly exceptional game and thanks to that opportunity they still are doing it today.
The fact you fell short of mentioning what these "better MMO's of yours" offered than what Ultima Online did beside the 3D just further proves how flawed your post was. I mean the guy who made it happen "Richard Garriott" was able to afford a 10 day, 30 mil trip to space thanks to its success...
Wait. Ultima Online did not have a popular IP? When did you start with computer games,? Around WoW? Ultima was one of the MAJOR franchises in the early days.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
When OP mentioned: "Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG"was the moment this topic lost it's true meaning to me.
I really don't know what to say to someone like you. Ok, i guess, have fun with those games then if you enjoy them. I, for one, haven't seen even one good game coming out for ten years. I can fully and honestly agree with OP there's no love, experience or drive to develope any good MMO because masses will buy any garbage they do produce.
Can't really blame 'em tho.. why do anymore than what's needed, if people want to buy garbage.
Been MMOing for over 15 years and there is nothing wrong with MMOs today other then gamers. They are to lazy and want easy wins. They forget what the awesome MMOs of yesterday did wrong and look back with rose colored glasses. When new MMOs come out they give it from launch a few week of play and call the game a fail before they get to end game and see what the game is really like. Sure we have had some bad games but gamers as a general label say fail way to soon forgetting the mess of their loved games had in the past. WoW still holds the worst launch of any MMO to date I have played. GW2 failed (still going strong) SWToR failed (still has a strong player base) The problem is mostly gamers. From launch we gamers need to start giving new MMOs time to get rolling and working.
If the base of the game is solid then its worth sticking around. What I mean is, do you like the core design of the game? This is the type of PvP I would like once they get it balanced and fixed. This is the type of crafting system I want to play. If it has the core design you like then stick it out. If you dont have the strength to stick to with a new a MMO launch and you gona rage quit because of server crashes, bugs, broken quests and class balance or your that pain of a player that skips 90% of the content to get to end game first and yell there is no content. Then dont play new MMOs, wait 6-12 months and then play it.
Been MMOing for over 15 years and there is nothing wrong with MMOs today other then gamers. They are to lazy and want easy wins. They forget what the awesome MMOs of yesterday did wrong and look back with rose colored glasses. When new MMOs come out they give it from launch a few week of play and call the game a fail before they get to end game and see what the game is really like. Sure we have had some bad games but gamers as a general label say fail way to soon forgetting the mess of their loved games had in the past. WoW still holds the worst launch of any MMO to date I have played. GW2 failed (still going strong) SWToR failed (still has a strong player base) The problem is mostly gamers. From launch we gamers need to start giving new MMOs time to get rolling and working.
If the base of the game is solid then its worth sticking around. What I mean is, do you like the core design of the game? This is the type of PvP I would like once they get it balanced and fixed. This is the type of crafting system I want to play. If it has the core design you like then stick it out. If you dont have the strength to stick to with a new a MMO launch and you gona rage quit because of server crashes, bugs, broken quests and class balance or your that pain of a player that skips 90% of the content to get to end game first and yell there is no content. Then dont play new MMOs, wait 6-12 months and then play it.
I don't agree. There is not a single easy explanation for how this genre developed. And your "one" reason also is not the one.
I think one of the big problems with a lot of these old hardcore old-school players is that they want an MMO which is supposed to be some kind of virtual life. If those disgruntled MMO "veterans" realised that an MMO does not have to be a replacement for their life and stopped expecting a game which will last them a lifetime and stopped thinking about the future of a game etc., then they might just enjoy what they have now.
MMOs are not meant to be played for years. They are not meant to replace your life. They are not a virtual world where you can live. They are games. Seriously, sometimes I feel that these MMO "veterans" are like one of those Dungeon and Dragons people who get so obsessed over something which is imaginary and not significant in any way.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
First, mmo's are meant to be played long term-thats why a persistent world is built with such detail. You are describing single player games-that are meant to be played through and move on to the next game. Why would these devs spend so many years/much money to make a game you will play for a month. If that was their goal they could do it cheaper single-player. You are in the wrong genre.
Second, just because gamers might want to play an mmo for a long time, make friends, see the game grow- doesn't mean they are trying to replace a real life, they are just trying to have fun the way they enjoy. I doubt more than a small percent of gamers see mmos as an alternative to living in reality.
Third, the "veterans" (which by the way aren't the only ones unhappy with todays mmos-plenty of newer players are bored with them too) are just sick of facepalm easy, unchallenging, rushed games with flawed designs, which is mostly because of the influx of player like you who devs target because of greater numbers ruin the genre. You should stick to simpler, spgames.
Been MMOing for over 15 years and there is nothing wrong with MMOs today other then gamers. They are to lazy and want easy wins. They forget what the awesome MMOs of yesterday did wrong and look back with rose colored glasses. When new MMOs come out they give it from launch a few week of play and call the game a fail before they get to end game and see what the game is really like. Sure we have had some bad games but gamers as a general label say fail way to soon forgetting the mess of their loved games had in the past. WoW still holds the worst launch of any MMO to date I have played. GW2 failed (still going strong) SWToR failed (still has a strong player base) The problem is mostly gamers. From launch we gamers need to start giving new MMOs time to get rolling and working.
If the base of the game is solid then its worth sticking around. What I mean is, do you like the core design of the game? This is the type of PvP I would like once they get it balanced and fixed. This is the type of crafting system I want to play. If it has the core design you like then stick it out. If you dont have the strength to stick to with a new a MMO launch and you gona rage quit because of server crashes, bugs, broken quests and class balance or your that pain of a player that skips 90% of the content to get to end game first and yell there is no content. Then dont play new MMOs, wait 6-12 months and then play it.
I agree with some points, but disagree with your overall idea that the 'gamers' are the problem.
Look back at the last decade of MMORPG's, name one that was inventive, creative and something worth talking about. If there was an MMORPG that fit this title, it was some indie developers who got all the mechanics right, but couldn't afford for the rest.
Go through the list of huge releases in the past decade, the ones that had a lot of money pushing development.
SWTOR (Generic fail)
RIFT (Clone fail)
GW2 (No trinity! so inventive!) *Sarcasm*
ESO (Generic fail)
Wildstar (Wow clone, generic fail)
I could go on and on, but the point remains valid. Not one triple A title has ever made something inventive, creative, thought provoking or new. They have rehashed the same old garbage over and over and over till peoples brains are fried. I have never once heard anyone talk about a new MMORPG and described it as 'amazing'. The words that are used are 'good' and 'ok'. Sorry, but I didn't sit around waiting for a 300 million dollar budget to be used on a game that is just 'ok'.
Want to blame the gamer? Fine..
Just don't sit there and tell me that these developers are producing gold when they are giving you coal.
Ultima was a great game but it wasn't great over night the game had a chance to evolve because there were limited options and a dedicated player base. Same with EQ1 and even dare I say WoW.
We are the major issue with the genre! We have become a bitter bunch of misers sitting online criticizing every new game that comes along because it's not exactly what we think we want. A game will release and within the first month people all over websites like this one will try everything to deter a new gamer from trying a game, they will spread rumors about sub numbers, etc. We never actually give games time to mature, work the kinks out, grow and expand. We play for a month, bash the game on forums, move on to the next game and the cycle repeats.
P.S.- what exactly does "generic" mean in relation to a game. This is one of the issues we say companies need to be "more innovative" but no one ever defines what exactly they mean by innovative. Criticism without offering any real ideas is worth nothing. What are things that people would consider innovative and fresh?
The big change came to MMOs when the masses got on the Internet. 2003 it was mostly nerds on the Internet and most nerds were male at that time. Today everyone and their grandmas are on the Internet so instead of playing with people you had a lot in common with, you're playing with a diverse population, kids, jocks, homeless, girls, etc.
Yeah these games are generic and you're quick to dismiss them as "fails" but pretty sure they all made quite a bit of money. Quite a few people must still like that gameplay. I've come to the conclusion that what I want - an old school pen and paper game translated to a computer environment- is not what AAA publishers are even trying to make anymore. Which is fine. It makes sense for them to go after the younger market where most of the money is and that is what they are doing with games like this.
Not saying I don't grumble about it but I mainly just hope for a niche indie game to come out which meets my needs. I've pretty much given up on anything AAA.
I suspect the same type of thing is true of you and the OP. Devs aren't stupid, it's not like they are trying to make games for us old-timers and come out with Wildstar by mistake. The majority of the market has just changed a lot since 2001.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle ...(they) call the game a fail before they get to end game and see what the game is really like. If the base of the game is solid then its worth sticking around. What I mean is, do you like the core design of the game? ...
If the real game starts at end game then I'm simply not interested. In my first real MMO, most people didn't make it to end game; the journey, itself, provided immense satisfaction. End game was an obsession that a small % of players undertook in the early years of the game.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The big change came to MMOs when the masses got on the Internet. 2003 it was mostly nerds on the Internet and most nerds were male at that time. Today everyone and their grandmas are on the Internet so instead of playing with people you had a lot in common with, you're playing with a diverse population, kids, jocks, homeless, girls, etc.
That's the point I keep making and nobody wants to listen. The biggest problem today is unrealistic expectations. People want games to be just like they were when EQ and UO were out, but we don't live in that world anymore and we will never go back to it. People have such ridiculous expectations of games these days, they want the world to be nothing more than nerds with no lives.
#16 IDOC hunting (In danger of collapsing houses) - Check
#17 Rare clothes/Dress yourself the way you want - Check
#18 Some of the best action packed, skill + gear driven PvP - Check
#19 Obtaining rare scrolls to become Elder/Legendary at some professions/skills - Check
#20 Unique builds that no one can copy off you - Check
I'll stop at 20 for now cuz I'm about to hit the bed. Good night....Saddest thing of all was Ultima Online started to develop in 1997. That's the biggest irony of all. If only Richard Garriot would've known that his 1997 MMORPG would be far superiour than anything else that was going to come in the next 2 decades....If he only known!
Although UO is almost as much to blame seeing as it decided to switch from Open World PvP to a safer method after EQ released. Before EQ the game was great, after .. Not so.
That's the point I keep making and nobody wants to listen. The biggest problem today is unrealistic expectations. People want games to be just like they were when EQ and UO were out, but we don't live in that world anymore and we will never go back to it. People have such ridiculous expectations of games these days, they want the world to be nothing more than nerds with no lives.
That's not the world anymore.
Wrong. Assumtions are wrong, blaming the market and assuming is wrong. Assuming people expect this and want that is wrong. Truth is it comes down to producers to produce a product. If I was building a MMO if I listened to this guy or that guy or what this guy wants, what are the expectations on what type of audience, bla bla bla...I would never made an epic game.
All I need to do is not listen to anyone and develop the type of game that I see myself playing. Naturally, these AAA budget MMO's have failed to have the type of leader with the background to outline what kind of game the team will build for him. If anyone is not willing to "risk" their $ in what I see as enjoyable they are welcome not to. It's their loss.
One thing is certain if I was in complete charge and leadership of what kind of game my team will build, I bet it would attract/lure and create far greater market to spend $ over someone elses game. I already know that there is not a soul out there to match my love and experience/involvement with gaming.
There aren't a lot of true hardcore gamers out there and there arent a lot of individuals who understand and appreciate that concept to back these type of gamers with their money...and by true hardcore gamer I mean someone who:
#1 Averaged 13+ hours per day for the last 23+ years. I was the one who was waiting for the guy to open the arcade shop at 10 am at the age of 6 and I was there when he was closing it at 11pm.
#2 In second grade, yes second I got B's not A's in all subjects because I manage to skip 2 months straight to game more and since I've been skippin over 50% of all primary and high school classes to afford the 13+ average.
#3 I was in a country where I could afford to play 90%+ of all arcade, NES, SNES, PSX games and some DreamCast before I start gaming at the net cafe, LAN PC. Then when I moved to another country 2001, got my first PC.
#4 I remember winning 3rd place in my old country in a national tournament that was going on for weeks with qualifications. Over 6000+ players participated in Unreal Tournament and I could only practice at the net cafe! When it comes to Star Craft, Half Life and other popular FPS/RTS back then I was considered God. Naturally, with such exceptional resume and involvement in gaming I was going to be the smartest, the quickest and the most dominant.
#5 Been fortunate to enjoy all the great MMO's to their fullest because of my exceptional time spent gaming. Not a lot know the pleasure of being a SWG Light Jedi Knight Pre-Cu and all the journey I had to go through to unlock it, how priceless it felt to be the most wanted and chased by both the Empire and the Alliance with all those bounty hunters and their coverts or how I made over 24 mil gold in Ultima Online by end of 2002 from trading, cutting deals and so forth.
#6 I also hold record for most games played on Star Craft, particulary 1v1/2v2/3v3 in BGH. I prooly have 60,000+ games played on Star Craft. I was top 5 (ranked 4 on ladder, US East when it was most popular) and held top 10 ladder for long time.
#7 I've played more RPG's and JRPG's than any living being on this planet. It's been always my most favorite genre, so if all I'm the one who's seen it all out there.
So, naturally when you have some newb who has a G/F, a family or spent most of his life doing other activities than GAME, of course he won't have a clue what to do when desigining a game. The lead designer need to be 3-5 years in the future of WHAT will be great, popular and enjoyable by most. Normally, you can't be ahead of your time unless you've shown such love toward gaming that you are 1 step ahead of most and know exactly what works and what needs to be done.
So, again it comes down to producers and how much experience, involvement and love toward gaming and this genre they've had and have today. If they are in it for the MONEY rather than designing a game they see themself playing, they certantly are in the wrong business.
Who would you put in charge with 250 mil budget to build the game for you? Me? Or someone who will tell you, this can't fail cuz its proven to work. The statistics, the analysis, the surveys are there. Everything looks promicing and safe to do. We will be targeting that specific market and the survey here says thats what it wants to see. So, there is 0% risk for you and you will see your $ back...True, you might see a return of your investment with your $, but if I made that game the way I wanted, I would'nt just see a return in the investment, but I would broke so many records and blow players minds with what can in fact be done with the tools we have available.
That's what a true hardcore gamer does. He brakes records and doesn't just play games to explore em, he plays em to dominate em on the highest difficult setting available with 100% success. I remember the blast I had with Crash Bandicoot and collecting those platinum relics or in Gran Turismo 2 getting all those gold licenses. I was fortunate and blessed that I choose to sacrifice every single moment I had to just game more back in those days...Developers back then were far more advanced and innovative toward gaming....because they were making games from the heart, from their imagination, not from some statistics. The music, the ambience, the depth, the small details, everything was simply done awesome. That's how Square became the Square is today, thx to all those 2D Final Fantasy I, II, III and so forth that kept coming.
I very much doubt hardcore is 13+ hours PER day, as that is over half he day so they either need short work hours and high incomes or no work hours and money to spend.
Last time I saw what a casual vs hardcore was it boiled down to casuals = about 2 hours a week and hardcore 2 hours per day.
Now I can do 3 to 5 hours a day + easy but would never say hardcore as I play at my own speed, build however I want, not what people think I should have.
Longest I've ever played non stop being 3 days but then I was falling out of the chair at the end.
Comments
One Reason = Mainstream internet!
When OP mentioned: "Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG" was the moment this topic lost it's true meaning to me.
Yes exactly, but why was that? One word Freedom... (or lack there of) I'm done beating around the bush about it. We are the direct cause of that direction. EQ was based on content, UO was based on players. Players abused those systems to ruin the game for others, and for simply nothing more than their own shits and giggles. No different than your common troll, who makes life hell on forums.
People still abuse these systems today for the same reason, EVE is rampant with it, people avoid indie FFA games like the plague, who wants to be an accessory in someones balls to chin fantasy?
Making a game based around content is logical from a business perspective. Making a game that makes these folks the content is not... ANd that's exactly what they fear, they don't want the wolves ruining their chances at success. UO and games like that require communal players, without them the game is nothing. That's a huge risk to weight millions in corporate/invested funds on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Because UO was a bad game
There, I said it. Most people didn't even bother with it, it didn't had the power to draw in people who never had experience with multiplayers that much. So they began to make better games, that made millions of people interested. And the selected few that actually liked this game found their home here on this forum, to start the endless complaining 
#1 Ultima Online started developing in 1997.
#2 Had 2D graphics.
#3 Had low budget.
#4 Did not have popular IP unlike Warcraft/SWG and so forth.
#5 Was launched when games like Diablo, Star Craft, Counter Strike, Half Life were at their prime.
#6 The term MMORPG was still something new and unfamiliar to most.
#7 The online market was significantly smaller since back then. PC's were not affordable by everyone and there was still dial up internet connections.
Yet, after some of these reasons the game had 250,000 monthly subs and you're saying UO was a bad game and most people didn't even bother with it. On the contrary, those few, the older, the first and fortunate that did bother with it got to enjoy a truly exceptional game and thanks to that opportunity they still are doing it today.
The fact you fell short of mentioning what these "better MMO's of yours" offered than what Ultima Online did beside the 3D just further proves how flawed your post was. I mean the guy who made it happen "Richard Garriott" was able to afford a 10 day, 30 mil trip to space thanks to its success...
Oh I get it, this a UO was better than every other MMO threads... the title is so misleading. Question is, is it a WoW killer? Discuss.
Do you go to a resturaunt and treat the staff like utter shit because it's their job to service you? Do you just say it's their job to be treated like crap?
I don't mind it when people criticize a game. I don't mind it when they give negative feedback. But to imply that we as developers do not care about these products? That we are don't care about the audience that is going to enjoy our product? That's absurd, and personally very insulting. It's not a negative criticism, it is an accusation that is wholly unfounded. It shows clear and utter disrespect towards the people that spend countless hours developing these games for you.
Negative feedback is good and all when it actually makes sense and when it is actually something players genuine see. But most of them don't know what the hell they are talking about. Most are inconsistant about even what they want out of an mmo, and any new feature that is introduced is held under such a tight microscope companies do not want to risk alienating a player base because of it.
Simply put. Companies respond to how gamers spend money. Not what they say. Knowing that. Show these companies with your pockets.
Wait. Ultima Online did not have a popular IP? When did you start with computer games,? Around WoW? Ultima was one of the MAJOR franchises in the early days.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
I really don't know what to say to someone like you. Ok, i guess, have fun with those games then if you enjoy them. I, for one, haven't seen even one good game coming out for ten years. I can fully and honestly agree with OP there's no love, experience or drive to develope any good MMO because masses will buy any garbage they do produce.
Can't really blame 'em tho.. why do anymore than what's needed, if people want to buy garbage.
Been MMOing for over 15 years and there is nothing wrong with MMOs today other then gamers. They are to lazy and want easy wins. They forget what the awesome MMOs of yesterday did wrong and look back with rose colored glasses. When new MMOs come out they give it from launch a few week of play and call the game a fail before they get to end game and see what the game is really like. Sure we have had some bad games but gamers as a general label say fail way to soon forgetting the mess of their loved games had in the past. WoW still holds the worst launch of any MMO to date I have played. GW2 failed (still going strong) SWToR failed (still has a strong player base) The problem is mostly gamers. From launch we gamers need to start giving new MMOs time to get rolling and working.
If the base of the game is solid then its worth sticking around. What I mean is, do you like the core design of the game? This is the type of PvP I would like once they get it balanced and fixed. This is the type of crafting system I want to play. If it has the core design you like then stick it out. If you dont have the strength to stick to with a new a MMO launch and you gona rage quit because of server crashes, bugs, broken quests and class balance or your that pain of a player that skips 90% of the content to get to end game first and yell there is no content. Then dont play new MMOs, wait 6-12 months and then play it.
So true!!!!
You have no idea what you are talking about.
First, mmo's are meant to be played long term-thats why a persistent world is built with such detail. You are describing single player games-that are meant to be played through and move on to the next game. Why would these devs spend so many years/much money to make a game you will play for a month. If that was their goal they could do it cheaper single-player. You are in the wrong genre.
Second, just because gamers might want to play an mmo for a long time, make friends, see the game grow- doesn't mean they are trying to replace a real life, they are just trying to have fun the way they enjoy. I doubt more than a small percent of gamers see mmos as an alternative to living in reality.
Third, the "veterans" (which by the way aren't the only ones unhappy with todays mmos-plenty of newer players are bored with them too) are just sick of facepalm easy, unchallenging, rushed games with flawed designs, which is mostly because of the influx of player like you who devs target because of greater numbers ruin the genre. You should stick to simpler, spgames.
I agree with some points, but disagree with your overall idea that the 'gamers' are the problem.
Look back at the last decade of MMORPG's, name one that was inventive, creative and something worth talking about. If there was an MMORPG that fit this title, it was some indie developers who got all the mechanics right, but couldn't afford for the rest.
Go through the list of huge releases in the past decade, the ones that had a lot of money pushing development.
SWTOR (Generic fail)
RIFT (Clone fail)
GW2 (No trinity! so inventive!) *Sarcasm*
ESO (Generic fail)
Wildstar (Wow clone, generic fail)
I could go on and on, but the point remains valid. Not one triple A title has ever made something inventive, creative, thought provoking or new. They have rehashed the same old garbage over and over and over till peoples brains are fried. I have never once heard anyone talk about a new MMORPG and described it as 'amazing'. The words that are used are 'good' and 'ok'. Sorry, but I didn't sit around waiting for a 300 million dollar budget to be used on a game that is just 'ok'.
Want to blame the gamer? Fine..
Just don't sit there and tell me that these developers are producing gold when they are giving you coal.
Ultima was a great game but it wasn't great over night the game had a chance to evolve because there were limited options and a dedicated player base. Same with EQ1 and even dare I say WoW.
We are the major issue with the genre! We have become a bitter bunch of misers sitting online criticizing every new game that comes along because it's not exactly what we think we want. A game will release and within the first month people all over websites like this one will try everything to deter a new gamer from trying a game, they will spread rumors about sub numbers, etc. We never actually give games time to mature, work the kinks out, grow and expand. We play for a month, bash the game on forums, move on to the next game and the cycle repeats.
P.S.- what exactly does "generic" mean in relation to a game. This is one of the issues we say companies need to be "more innovative" but no one ever defines what exactly they mean by innovative. Criticism without offering any real ideas is worth nothing. What are things that people would consider innovative and fresh?
The big change came to MMOs when the masses got on the Internet. 2003 it was mostly nerds on the Internet and most nerds were male at that time. Today everyone and their grandmas are on the Internet so instead of playing with people you had a lot in common with, you're playing with a diverse population, kids, jocks, homeless, girls, etc.
http://gnomophobia.com
I thought the OP was going to say the one reason is....
WOW
I kid I kid don't shoot me dude. 
This have been a good conversation
Yeah these games are generic and you're quick to dismiss them as "fails" but pretty sure they all made quite a bit of money. Quite a few people must still like that gameplay. I've come to the conclusion that what I want - an old school pen and paper game translated to a computer environment- is not what AAA publishers are even trying to make anymore. Which is fine. It makes sense for them to go after the younger market where most of the money is and that is what they are doing with games like this.
Not saying I don't grumble about it but I mainly just hope for a niche indie game to come out which meets my needs. I've pretty much given up on anything AAA.
I suspect the same type of thing is true of you and the OP. Devs aren't stupid, it's not like they are trying to make games for us old-timers and come out with Wildstar by mistake. The majority of the market has just changed a lot since 2001.
If the real game starts at end game then I'm simply not interested. In my first real MMO, most people didn't make it to end game; the journey, itself, provided immense satisfaction. End game was an obsession that a small % of players undertook in the early years of the game.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
That's the point I keep making and nobody wants to listen. The biggest problem today is unrealistic expectations. People want games to be just like they were when EQ and UO were out, but we don't live in that world anymore and we will never go back to it. People have such ridiculous expectations of games these days, they want the world to be nothing more than nerds with no lives.
That's not the world anymore.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Ultima Online:
#1 Open world - Check
#2 Player driven economy - Check
#3 PvP with full loot - Check
#4 Fully customizable houses players can build - Check
#5 Faction system with leaders - Check
#6 Stealing/Fishing/Pirating/ - Check
#7 Collecting rares - Check
#8 Runs on a junk PC flawlessly - Check
#9 Weather changes - Check
#10 One of the best music/ambiences ever - Check
#11 Bounty system - Check
#12 Chaos/Order - Check
#13 Karma/Fame - Check
#14 Achivements/Titles to earn - Check
#15 Player run vendors, no AH - Check
#16 IDOC hunting (In danger of collapsing houses) - Check
#17 Rare clothes/Dress yourself the way you want - Check
#18 Some of the best action packed, skill + gear driven PvP - Check
#19 Obtaining rare scrolls to become Elder/Legendary at some professions/skills - Check
#20 Unique builds that no one can copy off you - Check
I'll stop at 20 for now cuz I'm about to hit the bed. Good night....Saddest thing of all was Ultima Online started to develop in 1997. That's the biggest irony of all. If only Richard Garriot would've known that his 1997 MMORPG would be far superiour than anything else that was going to come in the next 2 decades....If he only known!
Although UO is almost as much to blame seeing as it decided to switch from Open World PvP to a safer method after EQ released. Before EQ the game was great, after .. Not so.
Wrong. Assumtions are wrong, blaming the market and assuming is wrong. Assuming people expect this and want that is wrong. Truth is it comes down to producers to produce a product. If I was building a MMO if I listened to this guy or that guy or what this guy wants, what are the expectations on what type of audience, bla bla bla...I would never made an epic game.
All I need to do is not listen to anyone and develop the type of game that I see myself playing. Naturally, these AAA budget MMO's have failed to have the type of leader with the background to outline what kind of game the team will build for him. If anyone is not willing to "risk" their $ in what I see as enjoyable they are welcome not to. It's their loss.
One thing is certain if I was in complete charge and leadership of what kind of game my team will build, I bet it would attract/lure and create far greater market to spend $ over someone elses game. I already know that there is not a soul out there to match my love and experience/involvement with gaming.
There aren't a lot of true hardcore gamers out there and there arent a lot of individuals who understand and appreciate that concept to back these type of gamers with their money...and by true hardcore gamer I mean someone who:
#1 Averaged 13+ hours per day for the last 23+ years. I was the one who was waiting for the guy to open the arcade shop at 10 am at the age of 6 and I was there when he was closing it at 11pm.
#2 In second grade, yes second I got B's not A's in all subjects because I manage to skip 2 months straight to game more and since I've been skippin over 50% of all primary and high school classes to afford the 13+ average.
#3 I was in a country where I could afford to play 90%+ of all arcade, NES, SNES, PSX games and some DreamCast before I start gaming at the net cafe, LAN PC. Then when I moved to another country 2001, got my first PC.
#4 I remember winning 3rd place in my old country in a national tournament that was going on for weeks with qualifications. Over 6000+ players participated in Unreal Tournament and I could only practice at the net cafe! When it comes to Star Craft, Half Life and other popular FPS/RTS back then I was considered God. Naturally, with such exceptional resume and involvement in gaming I was going to be the smartest, the quickest and the most dominant.
#5 Been fortunate to enjoy all the great MMO's to their fullest because of my exceptional time spent gaming. Not a lot know the pleasure of being a SWG Light Jedi Knight Pre-Cu and all the journey I had to go through to unlock it, how priceless it felt to be the most wanted and chased by both the Empire and the Alliance with all those bounty hunters and their coverts or how I made over 24 mil gold in Ultima Online by end of 2002 from trading, cutting deals and so forth.
#6 I also hold record for most games played on Star Craft, particulary 1v1/2v2/3v3 in BGH. I prooly have 60,000+ games played on Star Craft. I was top 5 (ranked 4 on ladder, US East when it was most popular) and held top 10 ladder for long time.
#7 I've played more RPG's and JRPG's than any living being on this planet. It's been always my most favorite genre, so if all I'm the one who's seen it all out there.
So, naturally when you have some newb who has a G/F, a family or spent most of his life doing other activities than GAME, of course he won't have a clue what to do when desigining a game. The lead designer need to be 3-5 years in the future of WHAT will be great, popular and enjoyable by most. Normally, you can't be ahead of your time unless you've shown such love toward gaming that you are 1 step ahead of most and know exactly what works and what needs to be done.
So, again it comes down to producers and how much experience, involvement and love toward gaming and this genre they've had and have today. If they are in it for the MONEY rather than designing a game they see themself playing, they certantly are in the wrong business.
Who would you put in charge with 250 mil budget to build the game for you? Me? Or someone who will tell you, this can't fail cuz its proven to work. The statistics, the analysis, the surveys are there. Everything looks promicing and safe to do. We will be targeting that specific market and the survey here says thats what it wants to see. So, there is 0% risk for you and you will see your $ back...True, you might see a return of your investment with your $, but if I made that game the way I wanted, I would'nt just see a return in the investment, but I would broke so many records and blow players minds with what can in fact be done with the tools we have available.
That's what a true hardcore gamer does. He brakes records and doesn't just play games to explore em, he plays em to dominate em on the highest difficult setting available with 100% success. I remember the blast I had with Crash Bandicoot and collecting those platinum relics or in Gran Turismo 2 getting all those gold licenses. I was fortunate and blessed that I choose to sacrifice every single moment I had to just game more back in those days...Developers back then were far more advanced and innovative toward gaming....because they were making games from the heart, from their imagination, not from some statistics. The music, the ambience, the depth, the small details, everything was simply done awesome. That's how Square became the Square is today, thx to all those 2D Final Fantasy I, II, III and so forth that kept coming.
I very much doubt hardcore is 13+ hours PER day, as that is over half he day so they either need short work hours and high incomes or no work hours and money to spend.
Last time I saw what a casual vs hardcore was it boiled down to casuals = about 2 hours a week and hardcore 2 hours per day.
Now I can do 3 to 5 hours a day + easy but would never say hardcore as I play at my own speed, build however I want, not what people think I should have.
Longest I've ever played non stop being 3 days but then I was falling out of the chair at the end.
There are lots of innovation. Like WoT where they just junk the world, and focus on instanced pvp.
The problem is that some don't want to call anything slightly departing from old ideas a MMO. Hence MMO has no innovation, by definition.
If we just look at games that are "like" MMOs, there are tons of innovations.