And ironicly after my epic quest from 2001 with MMORPG's I'm back to my first...Anyways, these are some of the top reasons people think why we are in this state.
#1 Saturated market, too many options, spread players across, bigger competition, etc, etc..
#2 Too many programs/ways today to cheat/exploit/bot/multibox/spam etc in a game...
#3 Was recently reported that there are around 24.5 mil MMORPG subscribers in the WORLD.
#4 Private sector. Devlopers can't develop what they want, depend on publishers, etc..Too many things to spend # on from marketing, CEO's, and so forth.
#5 Becoming more expensive to build em, programmers, graphic artists, writers, voice actors and so forth.
#6 Bugs, bugs, bugs which are product of mainly of rushed, untested products or games developed by amateur/cheaper programmers.
#7 Bad directions, choices, ideas by the lead designers.
#8 Too many players out there seem to enjoy playing cheaply, repetitive games over MMORPG's like RTS, FPS, MOBAs, card games and so forth...
#9 Forums like these keep exposing the flaws and trashing games that are out within first month, alerting and notifying others why the game won't last.
I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...
Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.
So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.
I for once have not spent a DIME in the last 3 years, 6 months and 1 week on any new MMORPG that came and I wasn't the reason, I wasn't burnt out or anything. I simply did not find a product I see myself playing and I moved along as many out there.
The only way this genre will go forward is us the gamers are resilient and cautious with our $. It's our only way we can vote and when people don't pay for MMORPG's it doesn't mean there is no MARKET out there. It simply means there has been no publisher/developer out there capable to create/capture a market.
Drone on and on when all you have to say is "MMORPG's are no longer niche games. They are games for the masses.". If you want to be snarkey throw in a "Thanks WoW."
This topic has been done to death on this forum. WoW was only successful because they were first to advertise their product to attract the masses. They offered just the right amount of features, gameplay, and graphics to get people's attention. They were the right MMO for the right time. Yes they were like the Beetles. They came around at just the perfect time to be first MMO to do away with all the autistic nerdyness that chased people away from EQ and UO.
WoW is the AoL of MMORPGs
WoW is the Microsoft of MMORPGs
WoW is the Ford model T of MMORPGS
WoW is the VHS of MMORPGS while EQ and UO were Betamax
Nobody cares that Betamax was better than VHS. All the matters is what became the gold standard and accepted format. Everquest could have been first if they had a reasonable XP curve and didn't insist of forced grouping and harsh death penalties for everything. Ten hours in to Everquest had characters dying to rat bites while ten hours into WoW players were slaying dragons. Maybe that is a bit of exaggeration but it doesn't take a genius to figure out which MMO would have 12 million players.
Um, a friend let my play WoW, I didn't get sold by some advertising... in fact I had never even heard of the game before that. My friend got into WoW after the checkout lady at the super market told him about it. He had never hear about the game before that. I'm sorry to tell you this but the real advertising was done by the actual players, not the company. Had they not spoken of the game, I know I and my friend would have never tried it.
You assume some massive marketing campaign did it... nope, it was the players that made WoW what it was... pure word of mouth did it. See, you don't need a big PR budget, you just need a good game... the rest will follow.
Been MMOing for over 15 years and there is nothing wrong with MMOs today other then gamers. They are to lazy and want easy wins. They forget what the awesome MMOs of yesterday did wrong and look back with rose colored glasses. When new MMOs come out they give it from launch a few week of play and call the game a fail before they get to end game and see what the game is really like. Sure we have had some bad games but gamers as a general label say fail way to soon forgetting the mess of their loved games had in the past. WoW still holds the worst launch of any MMO to date I have played. GW2 failed (still going strong) SWToR failed (still has a strong player base) The problem is mostly gamers. From launch we gamers need to start giving new MMOs time to get rolling and working.
If the base of the game is solid then its worth sticking around. What I mean is, do you like the core design of the game? This is the type of PvP I would like once they get it balanced and fixed. This is the type of crafting system I want to play. If it has the core design you like then stick it out. If you dont have the strength to stick to with a new a MMO launch and you gona rage quit because of server crashes, bugs, broken quests and class balance or your that pain of a player that skips 90% of the content to get to end game first and yell there is no content. Then dont play new MMOs, wait 6-12 months and then play it.
I agree with some points, but disagree with your overall idea that the 'gamers' are the problem.
Look back at the last decade of MMORPG's, name one that was inventive, creative and something worth talking about. If there was an MMORPG that fit this title, it was some indie developers who got all the mechanics right, but couldn't afford for the rest.
Go through the list of huge releases in the past decade, the ones that had a lot of money pushing development.
SWTOR (Generic fail)
RIFT (Clone fail)
GW2 (No trinity! so inventive!) *Sarcasm*
ESO (Generic fail)
Wildstar (Wow clone, generic fail)
I could go on and on, but the point remains valid. Not one triple A title has ever made something inventive, creative, thought provoking or new. They have rehashed the same old garbage over and over and over till peoples brains are fried. I have never once heard anyone talk about a new MMORPG and described it as 'amazing'. The words that are used are 'good' and 'ok'. Sorry, but I didn't sit around waiting for a 300 million dollar budget to be used on a game that is just 'ok'.
Want to blame the gamer? Fine..
Just don't sit there and tell me that these developers are producing gold when they are giving you coal.
You are the type of gamer I was talking about... your list:
SWTOR (Generic fail)
Doing very well and has over 500k sub and a a bunch of fun end game content. My guess you are judging it by its launch that was a bit of a mess.
RIFT (Clone fail)
Another game doing very well and has some of the best end game content out there. WoW was a clone of EQ1 and most MMOs are a clone of what came before it. Rift did enough to make it worth subbing to.
GW2 (No trinity! so inventive!) *Sarcasm*
Great game for casual gamers who dont have time to join a raiding type game. Load of free content. I love the trinity as well but not everyone dose. Far from fail still lots of full servers.
ESO (Generic fail)
IMO only bad game on your list
Wildstar (Wow clone, generic fail)
Other then art style and tiered raiding, nothing like WoW. If you call this a WoW clone you have not run any dungeons or raids. This is its own game that does not even have the same core combat system WoW has. Did you even take time to look into the game?
Gamers give up to soon on games and call them fail long before they get going. MMOs are to huge to say fail in the first few months. My guess most gamers like you dont give it much time past that.
You are the type of gamer I was talking about... your list:
SWTOR (Generic fail)
Doing very well and has over 500k sub and a a bunch of fun end game content. My guess you are judging it by its launch that was a bit of a mess.
RIFT (Clone fail)
Another game doing very well and has some of the best end game content out there. WoW was a clone of EQ1 and most MMOs are a clone of what came before it. Rift did enough to make it worth subbing to.
GW2 (No trinity! so inventive!) *Sarcasm*
Great game for casual gamers who dont have time to join a raiding type game. Load of free content. I love the trinity as well but not everyone dose. Far from fail still lots of full servers.
ESO (Generic fail)
IMO only bad game on your list
Wildstar (Wow clone, generic fail)
Other then art style and tiered raiding, nothing like WoW. If you call this a WoW clone you have not run any dungeons or raids. This is its own game that does not even have the same core combat system WoW has. Did you even take time to look into the game?
Gamers give up to soon on games and call them fail long before they get going. MMOs are to huge to say fail in the first few months. My guess most gamers like you dont give it much time past that.
The moment someone starts to throw the words "fail" and "clone" around as much as that guy did, I always figure their credibility goes out the window. The vast majority of titles on that list have proven to be successful and profitable enough to stay afloat for years. With not a single one of them put on life support, and with all of them still receiving frequent updates.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Who would you put in charge with 250 mil budget to build the game for you? Me? Or someone who will tell you, this can't fail cuz its proven to work. The statistics, the analysis, the surveys are there. Everything looks promicing and safe to do. We will be targeting that specific market and the survey here says thats what it wants to see. So, there is 0% risk for you and you will see your $ back...True, you might see a return of your investment with your $, but if I made that game the way I wanted, I would'nt just see a return in the investment, but I would broke so many records and blow players minds with what can in fact be done with the tools we have available.
Definitely the other guy. That statement is dripping with such arrogance that I'd know my investment would go right over the cliffs when your vision starts to fail but your pride keeps you on course until bankrupcy hits.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
And ironicly after my epic quest from 2001 with MMORPG's I'm back to my first...Anyways, these are some of the top reasons people think why we are in this state.
#1 Saturated market, too many options, spread players across, bigger competition, etc, etc..
#2 Too many programs/ways today to cheat/exploit/bot/multibox/spam etc in a game...
#3 Was recently reported that there are around 24.5 mil MMORPG subscribers in the WORLD.
#4 Private sector. Devlopers can't develop what they want, depend on publishers, etc..Too many things to spend # on from marketing, CEO's, and so forth.
#5 Becoming more expensive to build em, programmers, graphic artists, writers, voice actors and so forth.
#6 Bugs, bugs, bugs which are product of mainly of rushed, untested products or games developed by amateur/cheaper programmers.
#7 Bad directions, choices, ideas by the lead designers.
#8 Too many players out there seem to enjoy playing cheaply, repetitive games over MMORPG's like RTS, FPS, MOBAs, card games and so forth...
#9 Forums like these keep exposing the flaws and trashing games that are out within first month, alerting and notifying others why the game won't last.
I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...
Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.
So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.
I for once have not spent a DIME in the last 3 years, 6 months and 1 week on any new MMORPG that came and I wasn't the reason, I wasn't burnt out or anything. I simply did not find a product I see myself playing and I moved along as many out there.
The only way this genre will go forward is us the gamers are resilient and cautious with our $. It's our only way we can vote and when people don't pay for MMORPG's it doesn't mean there is no MARKET out there. It simply means there has been no publisher/developer out there capable to create/capture a market.
I agree with a lot of this. But it`s not just MMOs but game design in general. And it`s not just games but the economy, because there`s a financial depression which started in 2008. The consequence is that it gets harder and harder to establish a company and to make it profitable. And if your first game doesn`t turn a profit then that`s you out of business right off the mark. A few large old companies are still hanging in there, but even they are struggling and/or cutting corners. More time and resources are spent making games visually appealing and too little on actual game design, so that more derivative games can be created as quickly as possible to get some profits going.
I`m trying to think when I last played a really original game and it`s not easy. Maybe Homeworld, but then that was really just an RTS with an added dimension. Going back further there were games like Dungeon Keeper in the 90s which were original, and new ideas were thick in the Amiga and C64 days, even though the games were simpler. For some reason though, the scale of games these days, and the time and manpower it takes to make them, seems to prevent creativity rather than encourage it, and most new games are just remakes and tweaks of old games. Just how many RTS, FPS, 4X and RPG games have been made over the last 15 years; almost all bad; almost all entirely unoriginal? It must be hundreds. Me, I played Dune II on the Amiga and liked some of the copycat games like Starcraft later, but certainly not most of them. And I played Doom and absolutely hated it, and therefore haven`t bothered with more than about three FPS games since. And entire genres of games have basically disappeared, like tactical turn based, base builders/defense, comedy graphic adventures and anything 2D. The great thing this year for me is Pillars of Eternity, precisely because it seems to be trying to resurrect one of these ignored genres; top down isometric fantasy RPGs.
But it`s the same tired, hackneyed stuff in the MMO market. Either it`s autistville LoL or cards for the humunculii or it`s the same worn-out quasi Medieval FPRPGs we`ve been playing since Bard`s Tale. As if having an original idea is dangerous and to be avoided or something. If developers would make something distinct as well as of high quality then their games would be more successful you would think. In a way this was what WoW did at first, and it was also built for RPG and not just farming and lootwhoring, which broadened the appeal. And it`s not so hard to repeat this; in fact it would be easier to design your own game rather than desperately trying to emulate WoW, like so many MMOs seem to do.
Me I have an idea for a story driven Star Trek like MMO space exploration-combat/planetfall roguelike RPG, which would clearly be awesome. Of course, I don`t have a software company. But if I can have a good idea then so can millions of other people. how come none of them ever become games?
The secret reason MMOs suck these days. They are full of cretins.
I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...
Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.
So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.
1) What, exactly, would that one EPIC MMORPG actually look like? Where would that extra 101million people come from? What demographic should these developers be tapping into? 'Cause I know it's not the 101million people posting on MMORPG, because that number doesn't exist.
So, what exactly is this game you seem to have such keen insight on? Because if you have a seriously good answer to this question, you could not only be filthy rich; but also be the Finding Forester of game design.
2) Don't you find it ironic? That you claim to be tired of threads proclaiming various assumptions / reasons about MMORPGs; and yet you are literally doing that exact same thing.
I know I truncated your original post, because it is a long one, but many of the reasons you listed are actually valid. Because, and this may come as a shock, but things often have multiple reasons / contributing factors. Especially things as complex as an MMORPG. The world isn't black and white, and neither are games. Most of these problems come from us trying to find contrast in a market saturated by too much grey.
- I've said this before, but I guess I have to say it again. People do NOT go into game design for the money. There are far safer, and more reliable ways to make a good living. They go into game design because they love making games. To turn around and claim that no one has any passion for creating games is not only ignorant, but highly insulting to quite a number of talented people. And we wonder why certain developers give up on making games..
I agree with the premise of the post Kopo, even most of the points you made. My problem comes in with: How do we fix it? What can we do as consumers, if anything? We have no unified voice, everyone has a different opinion about what innovation is, and means. We are all over the place with our wants and desires for games that developers eventually cave to player demand, only to find out half the players wanted something completely different.
It's nice to live in a day and age where we, as players and consumers of the video game industry, can influence changes in the games we love through feedback etc. At what cost have we achieved this ability though? Was the cost too steep in anyone else's opinion? I feel like we enjoyed games like EQ, DAoC, etc. more because the developer knew what was best for the game, and made changes as necessary.
Are we really qualified as simple players to demand changes to a game that usually end up hurting the game in the long run through mechanics, sub retention, etc?
I have a ton of questions on this topic but don't want to derail Kopo's thread with it. Anyone else's input on any of these questions would be awesome, as I'm wondering if we wouldn't be better off altogether to let the developers take control of their products again.
I agree with you to the point that everyone is different and likes / dislikes different things... which is to say, and to answer the OPs post, there will never be 'one MMO to rule them all'. Which doesn't preclude the creation of 'the WoW killer', just don't expect everyone to like it.
As to whether we, as consumers, should give the power back to the devs?
It's not that simple. As someone who creates software for a living there are always choices to be made... from what text should go on a button, to exactly how a system should behave... and it would be great to have the customer answer all those questions for me. The problem is the customer basically never has much of a view of the program as a whole and so does not appreciate that seemingly quite simple choices ('just' do this / add that / etc.) can have far reaching implications. At the same time, I'm only one person, I'm not an expert in all fields, so what I think is a good choice in theory may be less so in reality due to factors beyond my knowledge. I'm yet to make more than a very simple game, so I can only imagine the choices to be made for something as complex as an epic MMO.
It takes a very special person (or more likely a team) to make the right choices all the time, and I suspect a lot of bad choices are made due to developer ego (or just plain can't be f***ed to think of a better solution). In that regard it would be good to have the devs choices checked, and pulled into line, ideally by the customer(s) during the design stage (assuming they even know what they want), but that means a very careful separation of 'who knows best' about which aspects of the design. Tie all that in with a limited budget and time and it's no wonder so much software (including games) ends up the way it does.
So to answer the question... in an ideal scenario you have the right people making the right choices at the right time. In reality the 'right choice' is (mostly) going to be subjective, so the right person(s) to make that choice is also subjective. As for the timing.. the design stage is, again, ideally the best, but also the point where all stakeholders (developers, customers, publishers, etc.) have the least knowledge of the project, and are thus the least qualified to make any choices. So yeah, not simple.
That's the point I keep making and nobody wants to listen. The biggest problem today is unrealistic expectations. People want games to be just like they were when EQ and UO were out, but we don't live in that world anymore and we will never go back to it. People have such ridiculous expectations of games these days, they want the world to be nothing more than nerds with no lives.
That's not the world anymore.
#1 Averaged 13+ hours per day for the last 23+ years. I was the one who was waiting for the guy to open the arcade shop at 10 am at the age of 6 and I was there when he was closing it at 11pm.
#2 In second grade, yes second I got B's not A's in all subjects because I manage to skip 2 months straight to game more and since I've been skippin over 50% of all primary and high school classes to afford the 13+ average.
#3 I was in a country where I could afford to play 90%+ of all arcade, NES, SNES, PSX games and some DreamCast before I start gaming at the net cafe, LAN PC. Then when I moved to another country 2001, got my first PC.
#4 I remember winning 3rd place in my old country in a national tournament that was going on for weeks with qualifications. Over 6000+ players participated in Unreal Tournament and I could only practice at the net cafe! When it comes to Star Craft, Half Life and other popular FPS/RTS back then I was considered God. Naturally, with such exceptional resume and involvement in gaming I was going to be the smartest, the quickest and the most dominant.
#5 Been fortunate to enjoy all the great MMO's to their fullest because of my exceptional time spent gaming. Not a lot know the pleasure of being a SWG Light Jedi Knight Pre-Cu and all the journey I had to go through to unlock it, how priceless it felt to be the most wanted and chased by both the Empire and the Alliance with all those bounty hunters and their coverts or how I made over 24 mil gold in Ultima Online by end of 2002 from trading, cutting deals and so forth.
#6 I also hold record for most games played on Star Craft, particulary 1v1/2v2/3v3 in BGH. I prooly have 60,000+ games played on Star Craft. I was top 5 (ranked 4 on ladder, US East when it was most popular) and held top 10 ladder for long time.
#7 I've played more RPG's and JRPG's than any living being on this planet. It's been always my most favorite genre, so if all I'm the one who's seen it all out there.
Holy shit, if that is not a recipe for gamer burnout I don't know what is! Just reading it made me want to give up gaming forever!
And I just have to ask, where were your parents this entire time? Particularly when you were 6 years old and hanging out in arcades until 11 pm. It sounds to me like you were sadly neglected as a child. Perhaps that explains why you felt you had to devote your life to become a GameMaster. Unless you were getting paid for it, a sadder waste of one's life I cannot imagine.
Look Kopo, you have been to the peak and there is nowhere to go but down, from there. As far as building a game for someone so game obsessed as yourself, well that is a fate I would wish on no man. Nothing will ever measure up to your standard.
Forget the state of MMO's.......do they have rehab for video game addicts?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Kopogero #1 Averaged 13+ hours per day for the last 23+ years. I was the one who was waiting for the guy to open the arcade shop at 10 am at the age of 6 and I was there when he was closing it at 11pm.#2 In second grade, yes second I got B's not A's in all subjects because I manage to skip 2 months straight to game more and since I've been skippin over 50% of all primary and high school classes to afford the 13+ average.#3 I was in a country where I could afford to play 90%+ of all arcade, NES, SNES, PSX games and some DreamCast before I start gaming at the net cafe, LAN PC. Then when I moved to another country 2001, got my first PC.#4 I remember winning 3rd place in my old country in a national tournament that was going on for weeks with qualifications. Over 6000+ players participated in Unreal Tournament and I could only practice at the net cafe! When it comes to Star Craft, Half Life and other popular FPS/RTS back then I was considered God. Naturally, with such exceptional resume and involvement in gaming I was going to be the smartest, the quickest and the most dominant.#5 Been fortunate to enjoy all the great MMO's to their fullest because of my exceptional time spent gaming. Not a lot know the pleasure of being a SWG Light Jedi Knight Pre-Cu and all the journey I had to go through to unlock it, how priceless it felt to be the most wanted and chased by both the Empire and the Alliance with all those bounty hunters and their coverts or how I made over 24 mil gold in Ultima Online by end of 2002 from trading, cutting deals and so forth.#6 I also hold record for most games played on Star Craft, particulary 1v1/2v2/3v3 in BGH. I prooly have 60,000+ games played on Star Craft. I was top 5 (ranked 4 on ladder, US East when it was most popular) and held top 10 ladder for long time.#7 I've played more RPG's and JRPG's than any living being on this planet. It's been always my most favorite genre, so if all I'm the one who's seen it all out there.
I don't agree. There is not a single easy explanation for how this genre developed. And your "one" reason also is not the one.
I think one of the big problems with a lot of these old hardcore old-school players is that they want an MMO which is supposed to be some kind of virtual life. If those disgruntled MMO "veterans" realised that an MMO does not have to be a replacement for their life and stopped expecting a game which will last them a lifetime and stopped thinking about the future of a game etc., then they might just enjoy what they have now.
MMOs are not meant to be played for years. They are not meant to replace your life. They are not a virtual world where you can live. They are games. Seriously, sometimes I feel that these MMO "veterans" are like one of those Dungeon and Dragons people who get so obsessed over something which is imaginary and not significant in any way.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
First, mmo's are meant to be played long term-thats why a persistent world is built with such detail. You are describing single player games-that are meant to be played through and move on to the next game. Why would these devs spend so many years/much money to make a game you will play for a month. If that was their goal they could do it cheaper single-player. You are in the wrong genre.
Second, just because gamers might want to play an mmo for a long time, make friends, see the game grow- doesn't mean they are trying to replace a real life, they are just trying to have fun the way they enjoy. I doubt more than a small percent of gamers see mmos as an alternative to living in reality.
Third, the "veterans" (which by the way aren't the only ones unhappy with todays mmos-plenty of newer players are bored with them too) are just sick of facepalm easy, unchallenging, rushed games with flawed designs, which is mostly because of the influx of player like you who devs target because of greater numbers ruin the genre. You should stick to simpler, spgames.
"Long term" is a relative period of time. When the vast majority of games can be finished in a weekend, playing the same game for a month or more is "long term".
Could someone please identify a period of time when many players were not unhappy with the current gaming market or any particular sub-market? Because I'm pretty sure that time doesn't exist. People were pissing and moaning about UO on forums just like people are pissing and moaning on forums now. It doesn't matter what happens in the market, people are going to piss and moan, and other people are going to use that as their proof that everything is going to hell.
The entirety of the market getting smaller or having issues can be attributed to WoW's inevitable decline. It could also be attributed to the unwillingness of publishers to divulge what amounts to investor information to the general public. Other than WoW (or the inability to see subscriber numbers), there are more games, with more people on average playing those games than ever before. There has never been so many MMORPGs as their are running right now, and they have never been so profitable.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Could someone please identify a period of time when many players were not unhappy with the current gaming market or any particular sub-market? Because I'm pretty sure that time doesn't exist. People were pissing and moaning about UO on forums just like people are pissing and moaning on forums now. It doesn't matter what happens in the market, people are going to piss and moan, and other people are going to use that as their proof that everything is going to hell.
The 70s back when " holy crap you made the dot move" was innovation in gaming
Could someone please identify a period of time when many players were not unhappy with the current gaming market or any particular sub-market? Because I'm pretty sure that time doesn't exist. People were pissing and moaning about UO on forums just like people are pissing and moaning on forums now. It doesn't matter what happens in the market, people are going to piss and moan, and other people are going to use that as their proof that everything is going to hell.
The 70s back when " holy crap you made the dot move" was innovation in gaming
Gotta love these arm chair game developers. The sort of demands and expectations betray their ignorance, naivety, and inexperience in a corporate environment.
Originally posted by donpopuki Gotta love these arm chair game developers. The sort of demands and expectations betray their ignorance, naivety, and inexperience in a corporate environment.
And you gotta love people who try to use dismissive, baseless arrogance to end every discussion. The reality is that consumers shape the market by buying or not buying. Therefore consumers discussing games and determining what they like and don`t like is as relevant as anything. At present there are two kinds of gamers the way I see it. Gamers who accept anything developers release without any criticism whatsoever, and who think "change is good" like some kind of George Orwell MC victims, and gamers who don`t, and want genre integrity and game difficulty maintained or increased.
When the second group becomes larger than the first, the gaming industry will have to follow. We rule the market, not developers. And they know it. Their problem is trying in vain to make games which appeal to both groups of players. But this is impossible, as Blizzard have discovered. So games will and should probably either be hardcore or casual from now on, to cater to both groups of players. And it`s high time too: Every single game released for the past 6-7 years has been casual and hand holding, and as a result a huge portion of the market are having a hard time even finding games to play.
It`s just a matter of numbers. And almost everyone I know who has played or is playing WoW is bored stiff because everything is too easy, unless you do heroic raids. MMOs are not supposed to be that easy though, but are supposed to reward time spent, effort and dedication more than slacking around or clicking a queue button. Call it a second job as much as you want; it`s the damn genre! Don`t like it don`t play it. But don`t demand that the genre of the game you`re playing be changed to suit your preferences.
"This game is too hard and I don`t want to play all day. Please remove micromanagement and economic macro from the game or I refuse to play it!" "But then it isn`t an RTS anymore." "I don`t care. i paid for the game and I have a right to see all the content!"
Originally posted by donpopuki Gotta love these arm chair game developers. The sort of demands and expectations betray their ignorance, naivety, and inexperience in a corporate environment.
And you gotta love people who try to use dismissive, baseless arrogance to end every discussion. The reality is that consumers shape the market by buying or not buying. Therefore consumers discussing games and determining what they like and don`t like is as relevant as anything. At present there are two kinds of gamers the way I see it. Gamers who accept anything developers release without any criticisms whatsoever, and who think "change is good" like some kind of George Orwell MC victims, and gamers who don`t, and want genre integrity and game difficulty maintained or increased.
When the second group becomes larger than the first, the gaming industry will have to follow. We rule the market, not developers. And they know it. Their problem is trying in vain to make games which appeal to both groups of players. But this is impossible, as Blizzard have discovered. So games will and should probably either be hardcore or casual from now on, to cater to both groups of players. And it`s high time too: Every single game released for the past 6-7 years has been casual and hand holding, and as a result a huge portion of the market are having a hard time even finding games to play.
But since developers know that the hardcore players will buy the casual games anyhow and complain about them, they win either way. The hardcore players tend to have no self control, they buy because they have to play an MMO, no matter how much they hate it, no matter how much they know they will hate it before they buy it, they buy it anyhow, then come here and whine about how horrible it is.
The above post is nonsense. On the contrary, as I'm as hardcore as it can get, that helped me to save more $ on gaming than anyone else could around here and in the same time vote with my wallet. As I'm aware more of the games that become available and what they bring compared to what's already is available I can find methods to find enjoyment if not better for products that have already been long released and demand no $ to be played.
When I was a child I had no self control, cuz I bought almost into any game that was coming, luckily back then games were at least far more innovative, different and creative than today. It's very simple, the day we will have the right people, those like me in charge and leadership of the future games being developed we will start seeing something truly ahead of it's time. After all those who've seen and experienced the most out there to its fullest capacity can go ahead in time to accurately predict what the market of tomorrow will want to see.
Originally posted by Cephus404 But since developers know that the hardcore players will buy the casual games anyhow and complain about them, they win either way. The hardcore players tend to have no self control, they buy because they have to play an MMO, no matter how much they hate it, no matter how much they know they will hate it before they buy it, they buy it anyhow, then come here and whine about how horrible it is.
And then then wonder why developers don't change.
I understand your point. And some of these people are certainly still around, compulsively playing MMOs. But because of the casual development I for one have entirely stopped playing MMOs, and will never touch another one until I am certain that it is and will remain persistently hard. I don`t even care if it`s too hard for me personally. I would prefer that to the opposite.
I`m hardcore and love gaming, and at the moment all I do is play old games because I don`t like any of the games being produced these days. The last good ones I found were FTL and Panzer Corps, so I bought both right away. But those are the last two games I bought. The rest of the time I play old classics on UAE, Dosbox and even CCS64 emu. I`m sure gaming developers don`t think it`s OK when an enthusiastic gamer prefers games from the mid eighties to the trash they`re busy mass producing.
But me, I`d rather order joysticks and play Wizball on the C64 than waste any more time and money on MMO scams, whether they`re sub, P2P or F2P scams. Unless I`m some kind of rare and unique flower this is not at all a good sign for game developers. And unless they stop cutting corners and obsessing on finding new ways to bilk players of money rather than focusing on proper creative game development, it`s not gonna change. The potential is endless in the current hardware. As gamers we have a right to demand something better than what is presently being released on the market. And the way to do that is to stop spending money on trash games. Even if this leads to Blizzard/EA/Activision/Bioware and others disappearing it will be more than worth it. Corrupt gaming companies have existed since the beginning, and collapse is their inevitable fate. But they are worthless and will be replaced by something better when they go.
Except that all the guys who made your MMO's in 2001 are the same ones making them today.
Kind of invalidates your point.
Incorrect. Most of those people had their companies bought out by publishers, and quit the industry, or formed small indie studios (Raph Koster, McQuaid, Garriot, Jacobs)
Originally posted by Manarix I do not need innovation. I would be perfectly happy with an exact clone of Daoc or UO, with modernized graphics.
Agreed. An exact/slightly improved clone of games that aren't available anymore would be great. Especially considering the designs of some of the old games were damn near perfect.
Without reading a single post in this entire thread because I'm both lazy and inebriated, I will say the one simple reason why the MMORPG genre is in its current state is because WoW made the genre popular. That's it in a nutshell. If it wasn't for WoW, if it had just stayed as a niche thing, not only would it have never evolved for the good but it also wouldnt have evolved for the worse. The one simple reason is WoW.
Comments
Drone on and on when all you have to say is "MMORPG's are no longer niche games. They are games for the masses.". If you want to be snarkey throw in a "Thanks WoW."
This topic has been done to death on this forum. WoW was only successful because they were first to advertise their product to attract the masses. They offered just the right amount of features, gameplay, and graphics to get people's attention. They were the right MMO for the right time. Yes they were like the Beetles. They came around at just the perfect time to be first MMO to do away with all the autistic nerdyness that chased people away from EQ and UO.
WoW is the AoL of MMORPGs
WoW is the Microsoft of MMORPGs
WoW is the Ford model T of MMORPGS
WoW is the VHS of MMORPGS while EQ and UO were Betamax
Nobody cares that Betamax was better than VHS. All the matters is what became the gold standard and accepted format. Everquest could have been first if they had a reasonable XP curve and didn't insist of forced grouping and harsh death penalties for everything. Ten hours in to Everquest had characters dying to rat bites while ten hours into WoW players were slaying dragons. Maybe that is a bit of exaggeration but it doesn't take a genius to figure out which MMO would have 12 million players.
Um, a friend let my play WoW, I didn't get sold by some advertising... in fact I had never even heard of the game before that. My friend got into WoW after the checkout lady at the super market told him about it. He had never hear about the game before that. I'm sorry to tell you this but the real advertising was done by the actual players, not the company. Had they not spoken of the game, I know I and my friend would have never tried it.
You assume some massive marketing campaign did it... nope, it was the players that made WoW what it was... pure word of mouth did it. See, you don't need a big PR budget, you just need a good game... the rest will follow.
You are the type of gamer I was talking about... your list:
SWTOR (Generic fail)
Doing very well and has over 500k sub and a a bunch of fun end game content. My guess you are judging it by its launch that was a bit of a mess.
RIFT (Clone fail)
Another game doing very well and has some of the best end game content out there. WoW was a clone of EQ1 and most MMOs are a clone of what came before it. Rift did enough to make it worth subbing to.
GW2 (No trinity! so inventive!) *Sarcasm*
Great game for casual gamers who dont have time to join a raiding type game. Load of free content. I love the trinity as well but not everyone dose. Far from fail still lots of full servers.
ESO (Generic fail)
IMO only bad game on your list
Wildstar (Wow clone, generic fail)
Other then art style and tiered raiding, nothing like WoW. If you call this a WoW clone you have not run any dungeons or raids. This is its own game that does not even have the same core combat system WoW has. Did you even take time to look into the game?
Gamers give up to soon on games and call them fail long before they get going. MMOs are to huge to say fail in the first few months. My guess most gamers like you dont give it much time past that.
The moment someone starts to throw the words "fail" and "clone" around as much as that guy did, I always figure their credibility goes out the window. The vast majority of titles on that list have proven to be successful and profitable enough to stay afloat for years. With not a single one of them put on life support, and with all of them still receiving frequent updates.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Definitely the other guy. That statement is dripping with such arrogance that I'd know my investment would go right over the cliffs when your vision starts to fail but your pride keeps you on course until bankrupcy hits.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I agree with a lot of this. But it`s not just MMOs but game design in general. And it`s not just games but the economy, because there`s a financial depression which started in 2008. The consequence is that it gets harder and harder to establish a company and to make it profitable. And if your first game doesn`t turn a profit then that`s you out of business right off the mark. A few large old companies are still hanging in there, but even they are struggling and/or cutting corners. More time and resources are spent making games visually appealing and too little on actual game design, so that more derivative games can be created as quickly as possible to get some profits going.
I`m trying to think when I last played a really original game and it`s not easy. Maybe Homeworld, but then that was really just an RTS with an added dimension. Going back further there were games like Dungeon Keeper in the 90s which were original, and new ideas were thick in the Amiga and C64 days, even though the games were simpler. For some reason though, the scale of games these days, and the time and manpower it takes to make them, seems to prevent creativity rather than encourage it, and most new games are just remakes and tweaks of old games. Just how many RTS, FPS, 4X and RPG games have been made over the last 15 years; almost all bad; almost all entirely unoriginal? It must be hundreds. Me, I played Dune II on the Amiga and liked some of the copycat games like Starcraft later, but certainly not most of them. And I played Doom and absolutely hated it, and therefore haven`t bothered with more than about three FPS games since. And entire genres of games have basically disappeared, like tactical turn based, base builders/defense, comedy graphic adventures and anything 2D. The great thing this year for me is Pillars of Eternity, precisely because it seems to be trying to resurrect one of these ignored genres; top down isometric fantasy RPGs.
But it`s the same tired, hackneyed stuff in the MMO market. Either it`s autistville LoL or cards for the humunculii or it`s the same worn-out quasi Medieval FPRPGs we`ve been playing since Bard`s Tale. As if having an original idea is dangerous and to be avoided or something. If developers would make something distinct as well as of high quality then their games would be more successful you would think. In a way this was what WoW did at first, and it was also built for RPG and not just farming and lootwhoring, which broadened the appeal. And it`s not so hard to repeat this; in fact it would be easier to design your own game rather than desperately trying to emulate WoW, like so many MMOs seem to do.
Me I have an idea for a story driven Star Trek like MMO space exploration-combat/planetfall roguelike RPG, which would clearly be awesome. Of course, I don`t have a software company. But if I can have a good idea then so can millions of other people. how come none of them ever become games?
The secret reason MMOs suck these days. They are full of cretins.
1) What, exactly, would that one EPIC MMORPG actually look like? Where would that extra 101million people come from? What demographic should these developers be tapping into? 'Cause I know it's not the 101million people posting on MMORPG, because that number doesn't exist.
So, what exactly is this game you seem to have such keen insight on? Because if you have a seriously good answer to this question, you could not only be filthy rich; but also be the Finding Forester of game design.
2) Don't you find it ironic? That you claim to be tired of threads proclaiming various assumptions / reasons about MMORPGs; and yet you are literally doing that exact same thing.
I know I truncated your original post, because it is a long one, but many of the reasons you listed are actually valid. Because, and this may come as a shock, but things often have multiple reasons / contributing factors. Especially things as complex as an MMORPG. The world isn't black and white, and neither are games. Most of these problems come from us trying to find contrast in a market saturated by too much grey.
- I've said this before, but I guess I have to say it again. People do NOT go into game design for the money. There are far safer, and more reliable ways to make a good living. They go into game design because they love making games. To turn around and claim that no one has any passion for creating games is not only ignorant, but highly insulting to quite a number of talented people. And we wonder why certain developers give up on making games..
I agree with you to the point that everyone is different and likes / dislikes different things... which is to say, and to answer the OPs post, there will never be 'one MMO to rule them all'. Which doesn't preclude the creation of 'the WoW killer', just don't expect everyone to like it.
As to whether we, as consumers, should give the power back to the devs?
It's not that simple. As someone who creates software for a living there are always choices to be made... from what text should go on a button, to exactly how a system should behave... and it would be great to have the customer answer all those questions for me. The problem is the customer basically never has much of a view of the program as a whole and so does not appreciate that seemingly quite simple choices ('just' do this / add that / etc.) can have far reaching implications. At the same time, I'm only one person, I'm not an expert in all fields, so what I think is a good choice in theory may be less so in reality due to factors beyond my knowledge. I'm yet to make more than a very simple game, so I can only imagine the choices to be made for something as complex as an epic MMO.
It takes a very special person (or more likely a team) to make the right choices all the time, and I suspect a lot of bad choices are made due to developer ego (or just plain can't be f***ed to think of a better solution). In that regard it would be good to have the devs choices checked, and pulled into line, ideally by the customer(s) during the design stage (assuming they even know what they want), but that means a very careful separation of 'who knows best' about which aspects of the design. Tie all that in with a limited budget and time and it's no wonder so much software (including games) ends up the way it does.
So to answer the question... in an ideal scenario you have the right people making the right choices at the right time. In reality the 'right choice' is (mostly) going to be subjective, so the right person(s) to make that choice is also subjective. As for the timing.. the design stage is, again, ideally the best, but also the point where all stakeholders (developers, customers, publishers, etc.) have the least knowledge of the project, and are thus the least qualified to make any choices. So yeah, not simple.
Holy shit, if that is not a recipe for gamer burnout I don't know what is! Just reading it made me want to give up gaming forever!
And I just have to ask, where were your parents this entire time? Particularly when you were 6 years old and hanging out in arcades until 11 pm. It sounds to me like you were sadly neglected as a child. Perhaps that explains why you felt you had to devote your life to become a GameMaster. Unless you were getting paid for it, a sadder waste of one's life I cannot imagine.
Look Kopo, you have been to the peak and there is nowhere to go but down, from there. As far as building a game for someone so game obsessed as yourself, well that is a fate I would wish on no man. Nothing will ever measure up to your standard.
Forget the state of MMO's.......do they have rehab for video game addicts?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I maybe believe 5% of that...maybe
"Long term" is a relative period of time. When the vast majority of games can be finished in a weekend, playing the same game for a month or more is "long term".
Could someone please identify a period of time when many players were not unhappy with the current gaming market or any particular sub-market? Because I'm pretty sure that time doesn't exist. People were pissing and moaning about UO on forums just like people are pissing and moaning on forums now. It doesn't matter what happens in the market, people are going to piss and moan, and other people are going to use that as their proof that everything is going to hell.
The entirety of the market getting smaller or having issues can be attributed to WoW's inevitable decline. It could also be attributed to the unwillingness of publishers to divulge what amounts to investor information to the general public. Other than WoW (or the inability to see subscriber numbers), there are more games, with more people on average playing those games than ever before. There has never been so many MMORPGs as their are running right now, and they have never been so profitable.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The 70s back when " holy crap you made the dot move" was innovation in gaming
So much more fun than Pick Up Sticks!
And you gotta love people who try to use dismissive, baseless arrogance to end every discussion. The reality is that consumers shape the market by buying or not buying. Therefore consumers discussing games and determining what they like and don`t like is as relevant as anything. At present there are two kinds of gamers the way I see it. Gamers who accept anything developers release without any criticism whatsoever, and who think "change is good" like some kind of George Orwell MC victims, and gamers who don`t, and want genre integrity and game difficulty maintained or increased.
When the second group becomes larger than the first, the gaming industry will have to follow. We rule the market, not developers. And they know it. Their problem is trying in vain to make games which appeal to both groups of players. But this is impossible, as Blizzard have discovered. So games will and should probably either be hardcore or casual from now on, to cater to both groups of players. And it`s high time too: Every single game released for the past 6-7 years has been casual and hand holding, and as a result a huge portion of the market are having a hard time even finding games to play.
It`s just a matter of numbers. And almost everyone I know who has played or is playing WoW is bored stiff because everything is too easy, unless you do heroic raids. MMOs are not supposed to be that easy though, but are supposed to reward time spent, effort and dedication more than slacking around or clicking a queue button. Call it a second job as much as you want; it`s the damn genre! Don`t like it don`t play it. But don`t demand that the genre of the game you`re playing be changed to suit your preferences.
"This game is too hard and I don`t want to play all day. Please remove micromanagement and economic macro from the game or I refuse to play it!" "But then it isn`t an RTS anymore." "I don`t care. i paid for the game and I have a right to see all the content!"
Options are great. I am all for more games to choose from, now fewer.
Except that all the guys who made your MMO's in 2001 are the same ones making them today.
Kind of invalidates your point.
But since developers know that the hardcore players will buy the casual games anyhow and complain about them, they win either way. The hardcore players tend to have no self control, they buy because they have to play an MMO, no matter how much they hate it, no matter how much they know they will hate it before they buy it, they buy it anyhow, then come here and whine about how horrible it is.
And then then wonder why developers don't change.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The above post is nonsense. On the contrary, as I'm as hardcore as it can get, that helped me to save more $ on gaming than anyone else could around here and in the same time vote with my wallet. As I'm aware more of the games that become available and what they bring compared to what's already is available I can find methods to find enjoyment if not better for products that have already been long released and demand no $ to be played.
When I was a child I had no self control, cuz I bought almost into any game that was coming, luckily back then games were at least far more innovative, different and creative than today. It's very simple, the day we will have the right people, those like me in charge and leadership of the future games being developed we will start seeing something truly ahead of it's time. After all those who've seen and experienced the most out there to its fullest capacity can go ahead in time to accurately predict what the market of tomorrow will want to see.
I understand your point. And some of these people are certainly still around, compulsively playing MMOs. But because of the casual development I for one have entirely stopped playing MMOs, and will never touch another one until I am certain that it is and will remain persistently hard. I don`t even care if it`s too hard for me personally. I would prefer that to the opposite.
I`m hardcore and love gaming, and at the moment all I do is play old games because I don`t like any of the games being produced these days. The last good ones I found were FTL and Panzer Corps, so I bought both right away. But those are the last two games I bought. The rest of the time I play old classics on UAE, Dosbox and even CCS64 emu. I`m sure gaming developers don`t think it`s OK when an enthusiastic gamer prefers games from the mid eighties to the trash they`re busy mass producing.
But me, I`d rather order joysticks and play Wizball on the C64 than waste any more time and money on MMO scams, whether they`re sub, P2P or F2P scams. Unless I`m some kind of rare and unique flower this is not at all a good sign for game developers. And unless they stop cutting corners and obsessing on finding new ways to bilk players of money rather than focusing on proper creative game development, it`s not gonna change. The potential is endless in the current hardware. As gamers we have a right to demand something better than what is presently being released on the market. And the way to do that is to stop spending money on trash games. Even if this leads to Blizzard/EA/Activision/Bioware and others disappearing it will be more than worth it. Corrupt gaming companies have existed since the beginning, and collapse is their inevitable fate. But they are worthless and will be replaced by something better when they go.
Incorrect. Most of those people had their companies bought out by publishers, and quit the industry, or formed small indie studios (Raph Koster, McQuaid, Garriot, Jacobs)
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.
Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
Agreed. An exact/slightly improved clone of games that aren't available anymore would be great. Especially considering the designs of some of the old games were damn near perfect.