The problem facing disgruntled MMO vets is one of perception. This site and the people here have become utterly focused on how much money a game makes and how many players it has. Was that ever in the equation when people started to play their first MMO?
You're confusing why people care about sub numbers.
They care that themeparks and WoWclones fail, because that means people might finally start making good niche MMOs again.
The problem facing disgruntled MMO vets is one of perception. This site and the people here have become utterly focused on how much money a game makes and how many players it has. Was that ever in the equation when people started to play their first MMO?
You're confusing why people care about sub numbers.
They care that themeparks and WoWclones fail, because that means people might finally start making good niche MMOs again.
I'm not confusing anything. I never said why I think people actually care about subs or profit margins, just that they do. And to further the truth I care little why you care about them.
The truth is, it's irrelevant. MMO's can survive for years with minimal investment, and they will continue to do so. Running an MMO is like running a golf course, very low upkeep on the servers, can be run with a skeleton crew and people will still show up to play even if it's not that great. MMO's are not subject to your idea of failure, because your idea is not grounded at all in reality.
The future of MMO gaming is on the console hybrids anyways. We see this with FF14. Plenty of disgruntled vets can't see why FF14 succeeds, because they have no vision beyond wanting something "epic" like WoW, it's a bloody joke. It succeeds largely because of the PS3 and PS4 market. There are people playing that MMO that probably weren't even aware FF11 was an MMO as well. There is a lack of suitable titles to play on a PS4 right now. I called all this ages ago and the PC master race would have none of it, and it's just going to continue to snow ball. ESO will get a revival after the PC play test server has done its job, EQ next/landmark will get the massive minecraft market share, and as now the opinions of a paltry dozen or so "hardcore MMO vets" on this site will become even more irrelevant.
Time to move with the times rather than just rehashing the same old arguments over and over again.
mmorpg games in general have become a smoldering cesspool of crap filled with instant gratification genre
its gotten to be like spaghetti ..throw it on the wall and if it sticks "we got a money maker boys!"
no thought or imagination is involved what so ever
iv gone back to playing my old epic games and emulators of the golden years of online mmorpg gaming ..the world that we once knew is no longer here
What do you mean by in general they've become instant gratification games? I ask because most today are designed around grinds and carrot on a stick mechanics. To me SWG was a far more instant gratification game than most today, All I needed was credits and could have whatever I wanted. No grind involved, no need for special gear to PVP with or give an advantage, the best was easily attainable. As were credits.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
i lost myself in my rant lol sry ..was meaning games in general are cesspools of crap and the instant gradification im refering to are the people that are playing them nowa days ..the i want it now! crowd that does not play hard / work towards achev. something breezing thru content and lvls in a week and then crying n wanting new xpan every month
Well to be honest with OP why WoW become so big success story is that the launch at right time you have to reminder that back in 2004 the was almost alone on market with MMORPG sure we have ultima online and EverQuest but what make WoW so big success story is at the same many country start to sell ADSL so people was get faster internet connection for very low cost per month which mean more people could be online for longer time that is what made WoW so successful it was luck on blizzard as well also blizzard have no one that could really hurt the market share not until the end of The Burning Crusade expansion that mean the have almost 4 years alone where the could build there fan base around WoW.
If you take any other know MMORPG put in same place that WoW was back in 2004 the would be king of mountain right now but what you have reminder the blizzard is not same company the was back in 2004 both Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria i have notice the blizzard are more focus on make money from there cash shop the make game better maybe Warlords of Draenor well change all that but to be total honest the are like 2 expansion after for the WoW community have ask since Lich King for revamp on playable race and player house and blizzard answer by put it in to expansion which i think is wrong that is thing that any other MMORPG would put in patch update but not blizzard anything to make extra money.
No game will every be as epic as Classic World of Warcraft was for me but ESO have the potential to be alot better MMORPG then WoW is right. Simple fact people is grow tried of do samething over and over again in all expansion before blizzard release new expansion which is lvl up, grind epic gear, wait over a year for new expansion just to start over again do samething the did in last expansion. But also have reminder one thing about blizzard the have destroy the genre(s) by make everything so easy sure it will make more people play there game but it also make hard for people like me that like to work to get make gear what i mean it is not why people say Cataclysm was candy story of free epic gear blizzard more or less gave away free epic and with that i mean it was way to easy to get epic gear.
Today will never found a MMORPG that have that epic feeling your very 1st MMORPG have it is hard for most company is rush out there MMORPG just so the can get little part of MMO market the don't really care much if make really good quality game but we also have new breed gamers today that we did have so much back in 2004 - 2008 the buy new MMORPG and basically just power lvl and stay for first 30 day of game and go to forums on internet and whine how bad the new MMORPG is but what the don't is that MMORPG is living, breathing thing that develop over time what this new type of gamers want is the samething the have in the old MMORPG but in new one and when don't get the get upset and start to whine.
I think using the word " We " is fine. At least for the few mmo players on here.
Three things happened :
- Developers are jamming us with garbage games, and telling the population this is what we are asking for with false reports to fit there simple 30 days games.
- Most people here are not mmo players they are general gamers.
- Many are just looking for free games, and what better way to get free games that to play mmos.
Every time someone brings up the classics, everyone automatacly resorts to call them old school. BUT if the old school mmos were made TODAY with better graphics and tweeked on the UI, they would be an instant hit.......All the OP is asking for is an mmo with a life inside the game that would last for years. This is why Archage is being looked at so deeply, but what is sad is that it's an Eastern grinder that will be heavy F2P cash grab.
I think using the word " We " is fine. At least for the few mmo players on here.
Three things happened :
- Developers are jamming us with garbage games, and telling the population this is what we are asking for with false reports to fit there simple 30 days games.
- Most people here are not mmo players they are general gamers.
- Many are just looking for free games, and what better way to get free games that to play mmos.
Every time someone brings up the classics, everyone automatacly resorts to call them old school. BUT if the old school mmos were made TODAY with better graphics and tweeked on the UI, they would be an instant hit.......All the OP is asking for is an mmo with a life inside the game that would last for years. This is why Archage is being looked at so deeply, but what is sad is that it's an Eastern grinder that will be heavy F2P cash grab.
Well, your mad assumptions do not fit me at all, but maybe you did a survey of mmorpg.com users that I never saw.
Originally posted by Moodsor I really dont like it when people think they are speaking for everyone else, personal opinions are fine but dont presume to be speaking for the masses like you are doing with the constant use of "we".
Since I'm part of this community just like you I can use the word "we" since it's correctly used. Dictionary.com can come in handy to clarify its definition.
I found my MMO since 10y, and it isn't WOW.
hope you and your 'we' community find yours.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
So what's the point of this thread? The op doesn't even say what that one epic mmo should be like. It's like saying let's have one epic car model only and have everyone use that. What if that one epic car was a Bugatti veyron? Would you be able to afford that?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Moodsor I really dont like it when people think they are speaking for everyone else, personal opinions are fine but dont presume to be speaking for the masses like you are doing with the constant use of "we".
His point is that he speaks for a lot of people in the same boat... I am one of those.. So "We", works totally fine.
For me, Wildstar has everything I want, and nothing that I don't want in an MMORPG. So why aren't you, or anyone else playing Wildstar? Wildstar IS the game you describe.
(if you don't like Wildstar, I at least hope you see my point)
I honestly and sincerely would like to see and feel toward it the way you do, but the sub numbers show that the majority of the market disagrees. It is in a direct competition with WOW and that partially explains it why. The question is when I've already have bought WOW, why buy Wildstar? Wildstar is also still untested, unproven MMO with a lot of uncertany around it. It is heavily dependant on new content/dungeon/raids and I like others want something better than what we've seeing in the last decade+
Then again, I could see myself playing WildStar only if it was indeed the best option for me years from now. The fact you felt short of actually giving imput to all those specific things you like that keep you playing and paying compared to everything else available out there as well that's upcoming in near future just further shows why we or anyone else playing WildStar right now.
In all honestly for what do you wait? If you want a world you can play long term you can take more or less any MMO on the market with a playerbase of around 100k, invest you in a specific community on one server (around 500-3k) and play that game for years.
You don't need WoW numbers.. and it will not help you either.. you will still stuck in your small server with a few hundreds, thousand other players.. you still will have fluctuation.. because how successful a MMO will ever be some will not like it. It was the case in WoW and with any other MMO.. and some will stick with that MMO.
Maybe.. if you can't handle fluctuation much you should join a MMO 6 month after it is released.. the worst is than already behind it, and it becomes more stable.
Maybe you should have invested in a few MMOs in the past.. maybe you would play now. Because actually you don't look that you look for something the market isn't already offering.. afterall you liked WoW.
So again.. for what do you actually waiting? The next WoW? Then you should have played LoL since a few years.. because that was the next big thing. Or Minecraft or whatever.
Originally posted by BurntCabbage i lost myself in my rant lol sry ..was meaning games in general are cesspools of crap and the instant gradification im refering to are the people that are playing them nowa days ..the i want it now! crowd that does not play hard / work towards achev. something breezing thru content and lvls in a week and then crying n wanting new xpan every month
Now that makes sense haha, especially if you're referring to the rise of F2P culture.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't beleive mmorpgs start out as 'epic' from launch. Was eq or WoW epic before iterations and expansions ? Not in my book, but they grew. So I don't buy Your rocket analogy for mmorpg launches, I think it is much more a getting some basic concepts and visions right and iterate on it, and then years and probably expansion later (provided the player base is there), the game might gradually become 'epic'.
Besides that, You are totally right, nothing that looks like it could grow 'epic' has been released the last 10 years - Those games fundamentals have been lacking long term vision for epicness. On paper there has been some attempts but their execution has not been able to fill the promises. Vanguard could have gone epic if it had been supported and iterated upon. Gw2 is my personal letdown, it had so much potential for epicness but the execution is a flat feeling. Next in the horizon is eqnext, but it is also just good intentions that may fail miserably under the idea that involving players makes better games.
The genre needs to die, so it can live again in another form, and then we will see 'epic' again, just a different kind.
[addition] my definition of an epic game is a game I start playing one day and a year later still play and finding out new stuff every day, and in that year has given me miserable aswell as awesome moments and challenged me to progress deeper and deeper into the game and its world.
I don't beleive mmorpgs start out as 'epic' from launch. Was eq or WoW epic before iterations and expansions ? Not in my book, but they grew. So I don't buy Your rocket analogy for mmorpg launches, I think it is much more a getting some basic concepts and visions right and iterate on it, and then years and probably expansion later (provided the player base is there), the game might gradually become 'epic'.
Besides that, You are totally right, nothing that looks like it could grow 'epic' has been released the last 10 years - Those games fundamentals have been lacking long term vision for epicness. On paper there has been some attempts but their execution has not been able to fill the promises. Vanguard could have gone epic if it had been supported and iterated upon. Gw2 is my personal letdown, it had so much potential for epicness but the execution is a flat feeling. Next in the horizon is eqnext, but it is also just good intentions that may fail miserably under the idea that involving players makes better games.
The genre needs to die, so it can live again in another form, and then we will see 'epic' again, just a different kind.
The problem with posts like yours as well as the op's is that you're judging games you wouldn't like regardless of "epicness", you don't like the design to begin with or focus, it's like judging the epicness of musicians of musical styles you dislike. Or judging the quality of a steak when you're vegatarian.To many the game they're playing is epic hence why they play it regularly, as it's a subjective feeling.
These kinds of arguments have become overly redundant in the last couple years. It's a bunch of Metal heads, judging the newest acts in electro-pop.
Why spend so much time focusing on products not aimed at your taste? Nothing needs to die for you to have your game.
if those dissatisfied spent half the time they do talking about the games they dislike or the people who play them; as well as all of the numerous woes directed at them. Not to mention their ownership of an entertainment source...... Actually coming together talking about games or designs they do like, something might have changed sooner.
To put it plainly who is going to spend a bunch of money, making a game for a bunch of people who seem like a holes, when those people who look liek a-holes are the chief content in the game, and it requires actual socialization and playing nice to truly succeed?
On top of that IF it looks like you're just trolling a sub genre, no one in any place of power to change this is going to take you seriously.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The major flaw with wanting one epic mmo, t shirt, car, anything really, is that everyone has different tastes. If we're trying to create the one epic mmo we probably couldn't even agree on whether it would be fantasy based, sci-fi based, post-apocalyptic, etc. Let alone get into which classes and roles should be present, how progression works, how end game works, etc. Frankly, I'd rather worry about more important things.
I don't beleive mmorpgs start out as 'epic' from launch. Was eq or WoW epic before iterations and expansions ? Not in my book, but they grew. So I don't buy Your rocket analogy for mmorpg launches, I think it is much more a getting some basic concepts and visions right and iterate on it, and then years and probably expansion later (provided the player base is there), the game might gradually become 'epic'.
Besides that, You are totally right, nothing that looks like it could grow 'epic' has been released the last 10 years - Those games fundamentals have been lacking long term vision for epicness. On paper there has been some attempts but their execution has not been able to fill the promises. Vanguard could have gone epic if it had been supported and iterated upon. Gw2 is my personal letdown, it had so much potential for epicness but the execution is a flat feeling. Next in the horizon is eqnext, but it is also just good intentions that may fail miserably under the idea that involving players makes better games.
The genre needs to die, so it can live again in another form, and then we will see 'epic' again, just a different kind.
The problem with posts like yours as well as the op's is that you're judging games you wouldn't like regardless of "epicness", you don't like the design to begin with or focus, it's like judging the epicness of musicians of musical styles you dislike. Or judging the quality of a steak when you're vegatarian.To many the game they're playing is epic hence why they play it regularly, as it's a subjective feeling.
These kinds of arguments have become overly redundant in the last couple years. It's a bunch of Metal heads, judging the newest acts in electro-pop.
Why spend so much time focusing on products not aimed at your taste? Nothing needs to die for you to have your game.
if those dissatisfied spent half the time they do talking about the games they dislike or the people who play them; as well as all of the numerous woes directed at them. Not to mention their ownership of an entertainment source...... Actually coming together talking about games or designs they do like, something might have changed sooner.
To put it plainly who is going to spend a bunch of money, making a game for a bunch of people who seem like a holes, when those people who look liek a-holes are the chief content in the game, and it requires actual socialization and playing nice to truly succeed?
On top of that IF it looks like you're just trolling a sub genre, no one in any place of power to change this is going to take you seriously.
Everything is subjective and I write my opinion based on my taste. It is not new that when ones opinions and observations doesn't draw a positive picture, it is suddenly trolling to those who like to see only positive. Is Beatles epic music? In my opinion it is because of its long deep history, but it's not something I ever listened to. Is some band from 2010 epic? No it isn't, regardless of taste, but it can become. Maybe that is not the absolutely dctionary correct definition, but it is mine.
About sounding like an a hole because I have an opinion.. I can only say I am not one and I think You will find many of the people who utter their opinion against (yes again subjective) shallow gaming, are actually some of the friendliest players You will find in a game.
One thing I can use is, it's true we won't change the minds of anyone by beeing negative.. Sometimes it just get out unbalanced.
Different people like different things. What you like most, somebody else probably doesn't like at all. That is the only reason you should need, in order to see that the "1 game for everybody" ideal will not ever happen.
Heck, you'd see the divide right at the front door by whatever payment model is chosen by this game of yours.
I think there will never be another epic MMO. Too much competition, and too segregated community.
Industry tried other king of the hill WoW clones -> FAIL
Tried history based MMO -> FAIL
Non fantasy based MMO -> FAIL
Too difficult or too easy MMO -> FAIL
Lack of automated grouping tools -> FAIL
Heavily based on automated grouping tools -> FAIL
Too bugged at release -> FAIL
Not US Based and badly translated -> FAIL
For what I see the players are the problem. Since market is over saturated, they don't give a damn anymore, and only go back to WoW for nostalgia.
There has been a lot of changes in the genre, and while not all the changes have been done by one game, there is certain where to look for a change of pace.
This. By the criteria most players here lay out when deeming a game a failure, every MMO ever released except whatever their original MMO they played was and WoW are failures.
At what point do we say "okay you just don't like MMO's, you like one game that you played before" instead of insisting nonstop that there is something wrong with the genre?
The simplest solution being the right one, it is in fact that people are not a fan of MMO's at all, rather than there is some industry wide conspiracy to release and get people to play nothing but crap.
I can honestly say people are just playing the games wrong on a massive scale. If you want an experience like your first MMO you have to play it like it's your first MMO. A huge portion of the "fans" don't do that, they just power level up, and whinge that they're bored. This is not even playing the game, if you play a game like this you havent even played it, much less can say if it's crap or not.
This. By the criteria most players here lay out when deeming a game a failure, every MMO ever released except whatever their original MMO they played was and WoW are failures.
At what point do we say "okay you just don't like MMO's, you like one game that you played before" instead of insisting nonstop that there is something wrong with the genre?
The simplest solution being the right one, it is in fact that people are not a fan of MMO's at all, rather than there is some industry wide conspiracy to release and get people to play nothing but crap.
I can honestly say people are just playing the games wrong on a massive scale. If you want an experience like your first MMO you have to play it like it's your first MMO. A huge portion of the "fans" don't do that, they just power level up, and whinge that they're bored. This is not even playing the game, if you play a game like this you havent even played it, much less can say if it's crap or not.
In other words you ask people to be as ignorant and inexperienced as in their childhood years to see themself amazed by these MMO's available and spend $ with joy. If the product is deemed unfun, unpleasant and unworthy to be purchased it will fail, it's as simple as that.
It's up to the producers to deliver a product worthy to be experienced, by both younger and vet players. As one of the most experienced player in the genre I'm in same time the least demanding, expecting, it's why I see myself playing today a 2D MMO with graphics made 2 decades ago.
If that MMO can bring me as equal or better entertainment than a product available out there that demands $ to be experienced, guess which one I'll go with?
People are not playing the games wrong. It's a simple battle between consumers and producers. Consumers want to see themself enjoy the product and have fun with for their $ and it's producers job to succeed in that and take their $. It's as simple as that.
As long as we will see people who rather choose to find blame in others or other reasons behind their failure to sell their product, they will continually to fail over and over again. One of the first steps of becoming something more, delivering something better is by aknowledging and taking responsibility for your own actions and failures.
Anyways, I would like this community to be more focused on actually contributing to this thread about the games we have available and soon over why games are failures. That was the purpose of this thread, us the community to find mutual agreement on one product, based on the information we got at hand.
This. By the criteria most players here lay out when deeming a game a failure, every MMO ever released except whatever their original MMO they played was and WoW are failures.
At what point do we say "okay you just don't like MMO's, you like one game that you played before" instead of insisting nonstop that there is something wrong with the genre?
The simplest solution being the right one, it is in fact that people are not a fan of MMO's at all, rather than there is some industry wide conspiracy to release and get people to play nothing but crap.
I can honestly say people are just playing the games wrong on a massive scale. If you want an experience like your first MMO you have to play it like it's your first MMO. A huge portion of the "fans" don't do that, they just power level up, and whinge that they're bored. This is not even playing the game, if you play a game like this you havent even played it, much less can say if it's crap or not.
In other words you ask people to be as ignorant and inexperienced as in their childhood years to see themself amazed by these MMO's available and spend $ with joy. If the product is deemed unfun, unpleasant and unworthy to be purchased it will fail, it's as simple as that.
It's up to the producers to deliver a product worthy to be experienced, by both younger and vet players. As one of the most experienced player in the genre I'm in same time the least demanding, expecting, it's why I see myself playing today a 2D MMO with graphics made 2 decades ago.
If that MMO can bring me as equal or better entertainment than a product available out there that demands $ to be experienced, guess which one I'll go with?
People are not playing the games wrong. It's a simple battle between consumers and producers. Consumers want to see themself enjoy the product and have fun with for their $ and it's producers job to succeed in that and take their $. It's as simple as that.
As long as we will see people who rather choose to find blame in others or other reasons behind their failure to sell their product, they will continually to fail over and over again. One of the first steps of becoming something more, delivering something better is by aknowledging and taking responsibility for your own actions and failures.
Anyways, I would like this community to be more focused on actually contributing to this thread about the games we have available and soon over why games are failures. That was the purpose of this thread, us the community to find mutual agreement on one product, based on the information we got at hand.
What games exactly are "failures"? Very few AAA MMO's have actually failed. SWTOR for example, it's doing quite well. As I mentioned before what you think are failures are not at all, so it's hard to take what you say all that seriously from the start when your ideas are founded on such a faulty premise.
You say you want an epic world to live in, but I wager 90% of all your interaction and activity in game is based around leveling, just like everyone elses is. If that's the case you don't get MMO's, and hence asking them to accommodate you is like me going to a fashion expo and expecting to be entertained when I know nothing about designer clothing. You show up with an open mind or you're better off not showing up at all.
It has nothing to do with pretending to be ignorant whilst playing a game. It's about experiencing it from a different point of view. Ton's of MMO's out there have tons and tons of content that is utterly ignored. I know because I've seen it first hand. While Im slowly leveling my toon doing quests in EQ2, using the exp lock feature to get as much out of those areas as I can, I watch players run right past me and ignore a huge portion of the game. Players are victims of their own devices. There is one way to optimally level up, one way to get the most EXP per minute or per hour, and that's what the vast majority of the community is going to do. And until you deviate from that course like I have, you'll get no sympathy from me when you can't find a game to hold your attention for much longer than it takes you to level up.
There is no "battle" between consumer and producer, that is an utterly ridiculous concept. You can't force anyone to make a product that they don't want to make, just like they can't force you to buy one you don't want to buy.
You've been told repeatedly that you're not getting everyone to agree on one product. You'll be lucky to get two people to agree on one product. If you can't see that, then this thread is completely beyond redemption.
Also just because you had a PRE-cu Jedi hardly makes you one of the most experienced MMO players. I had a preub 9 Jedi on Eclipse and was one of the first unlocks. Your problem is you think you know it all when clearly there are a lot of people who disagree with you. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing board.
Comments
You're confusing why people care about sub numbers.
They care that themeparks and WoWclones fail, because that means people might finally start making good niche MMOs again.
I'm not confusing anything. I never said why I think people actually care about subs or profit margins, just that they do. And to further the truth I care little why you care about them.
The truth is, it's irrelevant. MMO's can survive for years with minimal investment, and they will continue to do so. Running an MMO is like running a golf course, very low upkeep on the servers, can be run with a skeleton crew and people will still show up to play even if it's not that great. MMO's are not subject to your idea of failure, because your idea is not grounded at all in reality.
The future of MMO gaming is on the console hybrids anyways. We see this with FF14. Plenty of disgruntled vets can't see why FF14 succeeds, because they have no vision beyond wanting something "epic" like WoW, it's a bloody joke. It succeeds largely because of the PS3 and PS4 market. There are people playing that MMO that probably weren't even aware FF11 was an MMO as well. There is a lack of suitable titles to play on a PS4 right now. I called all this ages ago and the PC master race would have none of it, and it's just going to continue to snow ball. ESO will get a revival after the PC play test server has done its job, EQ next/landmark will get the massive minecraft market share, and as now the opinions of a paltry dozen or so "hardcore MMO vets" on this site will become even more irrelevant.
Time to move with the times rather than just rehashing the same old arguments over and over again.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
mmorpg games in general have become a smoldering cesspool of crap filled with instant gratification genre
its gotten to be like spaghetti ..throw it on the wall and if it sticks "we got a money maker boys!"
no thought or imagination is involved what so ever
iv gone back to playing my old epic games and emulators of the golden years of online mmorpg gaming ..the world that we once knew is no longer here
What do you mean by in general they've become instant gratification games? I ask because most today are designed around grinds and carrot on a stick mechanics. To me SWG was a far more instant gratification game than most today, All I needed was credits and could have whatever I wanted. No grind involved, no need for special gear to PVP with or give an advantage, the best was easily attainable. As were credits.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well to be honest with OP why WoW become so big success story is that the launch at right time you have to reminder that back in 2004 the was almost alone on market with MMORPG sure we have ultima online and EverQuest but what make WoW so big success story is at the same many country start to sell ADSL so people was get faster internet connection for very low cost per month which mean more people could be online for longer time that is what made WoW so successful it was luck on blizzard as well also blizzard have no one that could really hurt the market share not until the end of The Burning Crusade expansion that mean the have almost 4 years alone where the could build there fan base around WoW.
If you take any other know MMORPG put in same place that WoW was back in 2004 the would be king of mountain right now but what you have reminder the blizzard is not same company the was back in 2004 both Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria i have notice the blizzard are more focus on make money from there cash shop the make game better maybe Warlords of Draenor well change all that but to be total honest the are like 2 expansion after for the WoW community have ask since Lich King for revamp on playable race and player house and blizzard answer by put it in to expansion which i think is wrong that is thing that any other MMORPG would put in patch update but not blizzard anything to make extra money.
No game will every be as epic as Classic World of Warcraft was for me but ESO have the potential to be alot better MMORPG then WoW is right. Simple fact people is grow tried of do samething over and over again in all expansion before blizzard release new expansion which is lvl up, grind epic gear, wait over a year for new expansion just to start over again do samething the did in last expansion. But also have reminder one thing about blizzard the have destroy the genre(s) by make everything so easy sure it will make more people play there game but it also make hard for people like me that like to work to get make gear what i mean it is not why people say Cataclysm was candy story of free epic gear blizzard more or less gave away free epic and with that i mean it was way to easy to get epic gear.
Today will never found a MMORPG that have that epic feeling your very 1st MMORPG have it is hard for most company is rush out there MMORPG just so the can get little part of MMO market the don't really care much if make really good quality game but we also have new breed gamers today that we did have so much back in 2004 - 2008 the buy new MMORPG and basically just power lvl and stay for first 30 day of game and go to forums on internet and whine how bad the new MMORPG is but what the don't is that MMORPG is living, breathing thing that develop over time what this new type of gamers want is the samething the have in the old MMORPG but in new one and when don't get the get upset and start to whine.
I agree with the OP in everything.
I think using the word " We " is fine. At least for the few mmo players on here.
Three things happened :
- Developers are jamming us with garbage games, and telling the population this is what we are asking for with false reports to fit there simple 30 days games.
- Most people here are not mmo players they are general gamers.
- Many are just looking for free games, and what better way to get free games that to play mmos.
Every time someone brings up the classics, everyone automatacly resorts to call them old school. BUT if the old school mmos were made TODAY with better graphics and tweeked on the UI, they would be an instant hit.......All the OP is asking for is an mmo with a life inside the game that would last for years. This is why Archage is being looked at so deeply, but what is sad is that it's an Eastern grinder that will be heavy F2P cash grab.
Well, your mad assumptions do not fit me at all, but maybe you did a survey of mmorpg.com users that I never saw.
Well, why so many trash games ? Because greed.
Thats really all there is to it.
To make a great game, it needs to be made by gamers who produce the game they always wanted to play.
Thats how the really good games of the past have been made.
And thats not what todays gaming companies are doing. They just want maximum profit. Thus they produce garbage.
I found my MMO since 10y, and it isn't WOW.
hope you and your 'we' community find yours.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
His point is that he speaks for a lot of people in the same boat... I am one of those.. So "We", works totally fine.
In all honestly for what do you wait? If you want a world you can play long term you can take more or less any MMO on the market with a playerbase of around 100k, invest you in a specific community on one server (around 500-3k) and play that game for years.
You don't need WoW numbers.. and it will not help you either.. you will still stuck in your small server with a few hundreds, thousand other players.. you still will have fluctuation.. because how successful a MMO will ever be some will not like it. It was the case in WoW and with any other MMO.. and some will stick with that MMO.
Maybe.. if you can't handle fluctuation much you should join a MMO 6 month after it is released.. the worst is than already behind it, and it becomes more stable.
Maybe you should have invested in a few MMOs in the past.. maybe you would play now. Because actually you don't look that you look for something the market isn't already offering.. afterall you liked WoW.
So again.. for what do you actually waiting? The next WoW? Then you should have played LoL since a few years.. because that was the next big thing. Or Minecraft or whatever.
Now that makes sense haha, especially if you're referring to the rise of F2P culture.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't beleive mmorpgs start out as 'epic' from launch. Was eq or WoW epic before iterations and expansions ? Not in my book, but they grew. So I don't buy Your rocket analogy for mmorpg launches, I think it is much more a getting some basic concepts and visions right and iterate on it, and then years and probably expansion later (provided the player base is there), the game might gradually become 'epic'.
Besides that, You are totally right, nothing that looks like it could grow 'epic' has been released the last 10 years - Those games fundamentals have been lacking long term vision for epicness. On paper there has been some attempts but their execution has not been able to fill the promises. Vanguard could have gone epic if it had been supported and iterated upon. Gw2 is my personal letdown, it had so much potential for epicness but the execution is a flat feeling. Next in the horizon is eqnext, but it is also just good intentions that may fail miserably under the idea that involving players makes better games.
The genre needs to die, so it can live again in another form, and then we will see 'epic' again, just a different kind.
[addition] my definition of an epic game is a game I start playing one day and a year later still play and finding out new stuff every day, and in that year has given me miserable aswell as awesome moments and challenged me to progress deeper and deeper into the game and its world.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The problem with posts like yours as well as the op's is that you're judging games you wouldn't like regardless of "epicness", you don't like the design to begin with or focus, it's like judging the epicness of musicians of musical styles you dislike. Or judging the quality of a steak when you're vegatarian.To many the game they're playing is epic hence why they play it regularly, as it's a subjective feeling.
These kinds of arguments have become overly redundant in the last couple years. It's a bunch of Metal heads, judging the newest acts in electro-pop.
Why spend so much time focusing on products not aimed at your taste? Nothing needs to die for you to have your game.
if those dissatisfied spent half the time they do talking about the games they dislike or the people who play them; as well as all of the numerous woes directed at them. Not to mention their ownership of an entertainment source...... Actually coming together talking about games or designs they do like, something might have changed sooner.
To put it plainly who is going to spend a bunch of money, making a game for a bunch of people who seem like a holes, when those people who look liek a-holes are the chief content in the game, and it requires actual socialization and playing nice to truly succeed?
On top of that IF it looks like you're just trolling a sub genre, no one in any place of power to change this is going to take you seriously.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape
Everything is subjective and I write my opinion based on my taste. It is not new that when ones opinions and observations doesn't draw a positive picture, it is suddenly trolling to those who like to see only positive. Is Beatles epic music? In my opinion it is because of its long deep history, but it's not something I ever listened to. Is some band from 2010 epic? No it isn't, regardless of taste, but it can become. Maybe that is not the absolutely dctionary correct definition, but it is mine.
About sounding like an a hole because I have an opinion.. I can only say I am not one and I think You will find many of the people who utter their opinion against (yes again subjective) shallow gaming, are actually some of the friendliest players You will find in a game.
One thing I can use is, it's true we won't change the minds of anyone by beeing negative.. Sometimes it just get out unbalanced.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
agree
EQ2 fan sites
This. By the criteria most players here lay out when deeming a game a failure, every MMO ever released except whatever their original MMO they played was and WoW are failures.
At what point do we say "okay you just don't like MMO's, you like one game that you played before" instead of insisting nonstop that there is something wrong with the genre?
The simplest solution being the right one, it is in fact that people are not a fan of MMO's at all, rather than there is some industry wide conspiracy to release and get people to play nothing but crap.
I can honestly say people are just playing the games wrong on a massive scale. If you want an experience like your first MMO you have to play it like it's your first MMO. A huge portion of the "fans" don't do that, they just power level up, and whinge that they're bored. This is not even playing the game, if you play a game like this you havent even played it, much less can say if it's crap or not.
In other words you ask people to be as ignorant and inexperienced as in their childhood years to see themself amazed by these MMO's available and spend $ with joy. If the product is deemed unfun, unpleasant and unworthy to be purchased it will fail, it's as simple as that.
It's up to the producers to deliver a product worthy to be experienced, by both younger and vet players. As one of the most experienced player in the genre I'm in same time the least demanding, expecting, it's why I see myself playing today a 2D MMO with graphics made 2 decades ago.
If that MMO can bring me as equal or better entertainment than a product available out there that demands $ to be experienced, guess which one I'll go with?
People are not playing the games wrong. It's a simple battle between consumers and producers. Consumers want to see themself enjoy the product and have fun with for their $ and it's producers job to succeed in that and take their $. It's as simple as that.
As long as we will see people who rather choose to find blame in others or other reasons behind their failure to sell their product, they will continually to fail over and over again. One of the first steps of becoming something more, delivering something better is by aknowledging and taking responsibility for your own actions and failures.
Anyways, I would like this community to be more focused on actually contributing to this thread about the games we have available and soon over why games are failures. That was the purpose of this thread, us the community to find mutual agreement on one product, based on the information we got at hand.
What games exactly are "failures"? Very few AAA MMO's have actually failed. SWTOR for example, it's doing quite well. As I mentioned before what you think are failures are not at all, so it's hard to take what you say all that seriously from the start when your ideas are founded on such a faulty premise.
You say you want an epic world to live in, but I wager 90% of all your interaction and activity in game is based around leveling, just like everyone elses is. If that's the case you don't get MMO's, and hence asking them to accommodate you is like me going to a fashion expo and expecting to be entertained when I know nothing about designer clothing. You show up with an open mind or you're better off not showing up at all.
It has nothing to do with pretending to be ignorant whilst playing a game. It's about experiencing it from a different point of view. Ton's of MMO's out there have tons and tons of content that is utterly ignored. I know because I've seen it first hand. While Im slowly leveling my toon doing quests in EQ2, using the exp lock feature to get as much out of those areas as I can, I watch players run right past me and ignore a huge portion of the game. Players are victims of their own devices. There is one way to optimally level up, one way to get the most EXP per minute or per hour, and that's what the vast majority of the community is going to do. And until you deviate from that course like I have, you'll get no sympathy from me when you can't find a game to hold your attention for much longer than it takes you to level up.
There is no "battle" between consumer and producer, that is an utterly ridiculous concept. You can't force anyone to make a product that they don't want to make, just like they can't force you to buy one you don't want to buy.
You've been told repeatedly that you're not getting everyone to agree on one product. You'll be lucky to get two people to agree on one product. If you can't see that, then this thread is completely beyond redemption.
Also just because you had a PRE-cu Jedi hardly makes you one of the most experienced MMO players. I had a preub 9 Jedi on Eclipse and was one of the first unlocks. Your problem is you think you know it all when clearly there are a lot of people who disagree with you. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing board.