Originally posted by Pangaea The problem with level based games.....
....An open skill based system or similar would encourage innovation in the way developers design quests, items, equipment. PVP could be more engaging as level wouldnt be the only factor for victory. It would bring back the need and want for Items to be wicked..... Ehh I just hate level based games.. here is my previous rant to save me more typing.
Sorry had to get that off my chest. I know most of these problems are seriously impacted by making a game level based. Level based games are a developers EASY way of advancing your character without having to seriously worry about balance issues and having loads of details statistics that a SKILL based game would solve. Ehh.. I dont know.. I have given up hope for now. I guess I have been playing too much GEAS, and UO.
I cut the OP post to highlight a couple juicy passage in which it is evident he WAS debating level game VS skill-based games.
Now he sustain he wasn't. well, whatever.
I have 2 points to add to the discussion. Level Vs Skill and Health bar.
Level Vs Skill: for years i also was of the opinion that a skill-based game (defined as a game where your character doesn't have a level but a collection of skills and their value) was superior to a level-based game. Then my wife opened my eyes and i realized they aren't different at all.
Instead of killing monsters and rising all your abilities (but crafting), you are killing monsters and rising your sword skill.
At the end of the day, level 60 or sword level 120 boils down to the same thing with a couple variations that are not inherent in the skill or level system but in the devs vision.
A level system can be made so that you reach max level in couple months instead of couple years. So a skill system can be made that to max a skill it takes 5 years instead of 5 weeks.
One could feel more free in the skill based as you can choose what skills your characters take instead of having them ready for you, but then most people will go the known road and use "templates" anyhow. See SWG or UO for examples of that. Still, the skill based system grant a slight more freedom of choices, but give devs a much worse nightmare.
Instead of having to make sure 9-20 classes are working properly, they have a virtually unlimited amount of combos with possibly devastating results. Who could have forseen that combining Pie-Making with Club-Wielding would make a monster? nobody... but now the game is released and some player found the suppa combination and others are following suits (see: "Tank mages").. what you do? you nerf the suppa combination of course (See "Creature handler") and the people rumble.
Second point: Health bar. In Skill games, ususally, the health bar do not rise or rise relativly little in respect of what you have at start (exception: SWG post CU). That makes for a more fair system for pvp in theory as a newbie has same Hit points as the 5 years old veteran. so even the super wizard of the realm can't deal with 5 newbies.
This is good.... for pvp. but what it causate in PvE is that there will always be monsters that can't be soloed. Not only there will be some, but they will be pretty numerous, so compelling people to group to kill certain, ususal, creatures. "compelling" is most of the time a negative.
In the end, the systems are not the same, of course, but i do not feel that either one is the superior. they have inclinations for different gameplay but i won't ever say "Skill-based games are simply the way to go over level-based ones" as an absolute.
Thanks for reading.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I have to agree about the skills vs level idea. It's not whether there are levels, since even a percentile based skill set is still levels, just in a range between 0 to 99 percent [with given degrees of accuracy]. Thus, it is not whether levels should exist, it's whether one should even know they are there.
Lets consider a scenerio that's fairly simple to follow. Take a simple 'fighter/warrior/killer/etc' orientated person, maybe the person is RPing as a townguard or private in some army. Now, as this person does what s/he is doing, namely killing things for X, that person is using particular attributes that are particular to the style of combat. But it doesn't end there, the person's individual style of play[given that the developers decided to add more than just a sword] then the skills that are accrued must follow that playing style. So, you could have two townguards[PCs] that had different skill sets entirely. One could be a classic sword and shield user with little study in basic medicine. Another could focus on using a crossbow, but has little attribute training to use plate or heavy armors successfully.
To compare, Morrowind had it half right where skills defined what your level was, especially if it was a primary skill gain, but it failed in particular executions of the scheme. And that would be my particular choice, a skills proficiency system to where the skills are not inherent or necessarily related to each other [meaning that each skill would only relate if the given template were applied as the warrior/fighter/etc model as I produced]. So you wouldn't see a snazzy screen where you knew what your next skill/spell/proficiency would be. In a way, you would have to guess what it would be. You might find a crazy nut trying to be a plate armor wearing crossbowman or a magician that likes to stab things with his poisoned dagger. It would add more variety and detail to gameplay.
And I haven't even considered how to setup geography or the other elements of gameplay. Then again, I'm not a developer.
It didn't take much convincing but I agree. After WoW (which is grindless in comparison to the competition) I vowed never to play another level based MMO again. Now I'll still try betas and free trials for the level based games just because I like to see what's out there. But they all come down to the same problems that the OP discussed. I want to immersed in the game from the get go - not once I've grinded my way to the point of having fun.
Well I will give an alternative to this level based idea. So people dont' think I am just moaning and groaning with no other alternative.
Character can have a set of certain stats.
Life Force represents the health of your character and measures her source of spirit, energy, and strength. Dexterity represents your characters hand-eye coordination, and precise hand and arm movements. Agility represents the nimbleness of your character as well as her skill and grace in physical movement. Vitality represents your characters endurance and her ability to withstand hardship or stress. Intellect represents the knowledge and education of your character as well as her job skill potential. Wisdom represents your characters ability to utilize knowledge and experience with common sense and insight. Personality represents the personal magnetism or charm of your character along with measuring her ability to lead and persuade others.
With these stats you can formulate a % bonus the higher the stat is. The stat value could range from -10 to +15 (or what ever formula you want)
With thise base stats you can now use these...
Assault Skills
Strength: (% of your life force value)
Melee:(hand to hand fighting with melee weapons) Dexterity mod + your Melee % [this can also be broken down to several different melee weapons as to where you Sword % + melee % + Dex %]
Aim: (shooting bow, throwing weapons) Dexterity % mod + your Aim Mod %
Conjure: (casting arcane spells) Intellect Mod % + Conjure % Mod
Focus: (casting prayers, or certain monk abilities) Wisdom % mod + your Focus % Mod
Grapple: (grabbing, wrestling) Strength % Mod + Vitality % Mod + Grapple % Mod
Defense Skills
Parry: (melee defense ability) Dexterity % mod + Parry % mod + Parry value % of wielded weapon.
Dodge: (dodging attacks that can't be parried) Agility % Mod + Parry % Mod + Armor % Penalties.
Resolve: (mental resistence from spells or mind effecting abilities) Wisdom % Mod % + Resolve % Mod
Grit: (Physical resistence to stun, critial and fatal strikes) (1/4 Life Force % mod + Toughness % mod + Grit % Mod
Common factor of these is that at no time will yoru % ever be 100% at most you may cap at 90 or so.
There is not Grind in the sense that "I have to use my sword 10000 times in order to raise my skill"
Raising Skills
Seeing as these skills are percentage based the main mechanic for calulating a skill would be as so.
Example: Dexterity = 5 (each point = 5% to mod bonus resulting in a total of +25% Mod) Melee = 45% + 25% Mod bonus from Dex giving a 11.25 bonus Final value : 56.25% Sword = 30% + 56.25% Mod bonus from Dex giving a 16.875 bonus Final value : 46.875%
You have a 46.8 % chance per swing to hit a simple target withi no difficulty circomstances.
This is just a rough idea but not exact.. I could spill out my exact mechanic I use for my game, but I can't do that as of yet.
This is just a rough idea. No end skill can be above a certain %, as long as the end result never reaches 100%. There is always room for failure and always room for success.
Skills can be raised through using them. And this wont be a grind only because this is not the ONLY way to raise your skills. It can be purchaces through experience.
In this game with no LEVELS, the experience you get from kills and mission completion you can spend like cash on new abilities and to up your skills. Out side of the city your skills raise while using them. In cities your skills can be baught and new abilities can be baught with your experience pool.
You may think this is a easy fast way to excell in one area.. wich.. is true in some cases you can increase in one area very quickly. As your % get higher they will be harder and mor expensive to raise but not greatly.
One thing you may think of is wow.. my character may get boring easily.
It wont, because you wont have him for monthes. Your character CAN live awhile but the more fights you get into the higher the chances of you dieing.
There would be perma death. But it isn't the kind of thing that would bug you like you think it would.
Your character CAN kill 20 orcs by himself. If you have enough armor and are lucky enough to not get hit in an unarmored area, the weaker orcs may bounce off your armor while you kill them all with your nice weapon.
It is a MIX between LUCK, SKILL, STRAGEDY. You will have basic combat actions like, Stab, Call a Shot, Body Targeting, shield bash, charge, target effect spells, area effect spell casting. but doing certain skills will decrease your %.
As you seen in my damage example.. if you have a newbie with wicked armor and weapon, he COULD take out an experienced joe.
The reason behind having a character that is FULLY mortal and not immortal as in every other MMO. Is because of many reasons.
1- If you want an immortal character there are Dozens of MMOS out there already for you.. there is no point playing this game because this is about innovation, something new, something refreshing. if you don't like the frustration of having yoru beloved character ever dieing then play console games where you can always respawn or every other MMO.
2- Perma Death adds a much more stressfull combat experience (wich is very addicting)
3- Ressurection can be performed by other characters.. so if you travel alone or without ressurection potions or someone that can HELP ressurect you then you are risking your life.
4- You will prevent the problem where EVERYONE on the server is Wicked and or the same level and or having all the GOODS. When you live a long time in this mechanic you actually EARNED IT through luck, skill, and stradegy. If you live a long time in WOW or any other game it just shows me that you played LONG enough to get there.
5- The economy will be healthy with a character base that will constantly range from poor to rich. While in level based games. 1-2 years into the game the mojority o the characters that are in play are above the 1/2 way mark if not Maxed level. This damages economy greatly when lower level characters strggle thier way to the top.
and I could list a ton more.. but i you complain that lag or disconnects will get you kills it wont happen as much as you think. In a level based game where you have a monster that can hurt you when they hit you then yes.. eventually you will hit 0 health. In this system you could easily fight a small dog for an hour and he not hurt you once.. OR he could fight you for 10 seconds and get a random hit on your neck.. biting your throat out.
You can be frustrated if you have noone around to help you but also that characters story arc is done..
your character died by a dog.. his accomplishments will be journeled and he is dead.
By a dog.. in his great life span he ahs killed many orcs and a dragon at one point and hi many journys led him to this day where luck was against him.
It makes your characters life more valuable when you are alive.
You also wont be killing HORDES and HORDES of monsters. unless of course you want to risk your life like that and have the great armor to do it.
The RP would be amazing.
Can you imagine the sadness of your guildmates and the actually emotional depth you could have when a character of your guild or even the leader DIES??
Who takes his spot?
Wow.. amazing
But again.. if you don't like Perma Death there are TONS of games for you.. so I wont expect all the love this game.. but I think the ones that do will LOVE it.
uhm... now the thread seems to have moved from speaking of Level Vs Skill to permadeath.
Well... whatever (part 2).
First, the idea you suggest, Pangaea, is practically identical as Asheron's call 1. Check it out and you find out that skills you use rise with usage and you also get experience points to distribute between whatever skill you want. It worked fairly well and was/is one of the strong point of the game. (at least for what regards skill advancement)
They don't use % in the open, but everything is based on % in any mmorpg. You have skill XX, you have XX% to hit a guy with skill YY. Writing such % in the game stats or not do not change much.
Second Perma Death. The ideas you lists are all pretty enticing on paper and i know there are a number of devs playing with the idea of having perma death. On paper.
In a game, though, perma death has a number of problems that are, maybe, hidden at first glance.
The scenario you described, of the hero that killed dragons and orks just to be slain by a dog, simply sucks and will made 99% of the players throw the game out of the window in frustration.
Can you really imagine it? How in heck a guy that managed to slaughter 20 orks can get killed by a common dog? it is not possible, period!
Now i understand it was probably an exageration, but still adding a great element of luck to a game where pearma death rules will just lead to tons of complaints and lack of players, if this is what you want, so be it.
Also about the disconnect and lag dead, you say it doesn't happen that often... but is not true. once is too many times in my book. And what would be written on that poor hero tombstone? "after crossing the Desert of Doom, killing the guardian of the Tomb of Times and retrieving the Trident of Ages, John Doe was killed by a rat while standing, in stupor, doing absolutly nothing... probably hit by some divine curse".
Again, if that happens, maybe during an epic duel in which my life could end even without lag, i would be really frustrated and just throw the cd away.
But hope is not lost, there is a fairly simple way to alleviate such problems and is to have multiple lives. your perma death comes after the XX death. then if you die once or twice for lag, it doesn't matter as you know everybody will and you have other possibilities. Of course it will happen that your last life is forfeit by the internet monster, but we can't really do much for that as there is no way for the server to know if you just pulled the plug yourself or your ISP suddenly died.
I agree with your vision of having a rapid development in a Perma death game. As people WILL die and their char get deleted, best that they didn't pass all their time as farmers but that their characters was able to reach certain levels of herohood before leaving this world. It is an intriguing concept and it has been expanded upon (with heirs, legacies and what not).
There is another problem though and that is content. such a game must be based, and strongly, on player made content. Nobody likes to do the same hand-crafted quests over and over again and in a game with permadeath that would be the case.
So, good luck to you. do not expect to have masses of people interested in the game (as it would definitly fall in the Virtual World simulator category and not in the Online CRPG), but with certain modifications, the perma death system can make for an interestign and innovative game.
Volkmar out.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Another thing which could be mentioned is healing. Again with the lifebar both are perhaps simple. I don't believe in the complexity of the OP's system in where you hit each part of the body, I'm not sure that would be too much fun. But something more complicated than person heals other person with one button.
Originally posted by Volkmar uhm... now the thread seems to have moved from speaking of Level Vs Skill to permadeath. Well... whatever (part 2). First, the idea you suggest, Pangaea, is practically identical as Asheron's call 1. Check it out and you find out that skills you use rise with usage and you also get experience points to distribute between whatever skill you want. It worked fairly well and was/is one of the strong point of the game. (at least for what regards skill advancement) They don't use % in the open, but everything is based on % in any mmorpg. You have skill XX, you have XX% to hit a guy with skill YY. Writing such % in the game stats or not do not change much.
There is a % in games in the end.. but not like I am speaking.
Cause even in a level based games there is a 0% chance of a level 1 defeating a naked level 60.
He can wack on them all day.
In my system no matter how good you are, if you only have a 90% parry, 1/10 successfull hits will hit you.
Meaning you better have some good armor.
Noone can block everything no matter how good you are.
And as to your comment "Can you really imagine it? How in heck a guy that managed to slaughter 20 orks can get killed by a common dog? it is not possible, period!"
That is just silly.. sure it is POSSIBLE. The problem with the mindframe of all these gamers is that they are programmed to think HERO = IMMORTAL.
Who ever thought Achillis would die by some stupid arrow.
People think they're Conan the Barbarian. Even Conan had to think his way out of a few adventures.
In the end, the Conan mentality of a hero won't work in an RPG that's based on being multiplayer. Not everyone can be Conan. Hell, even the creators of the Age of Conan pointed out you will not be playing Conan, you will be playing your character. So, how far Funcom or any developer can take that seriousness to game aesthetic depends greatly on whether they wish to weather the typical mediocrity.
Although, I have to say, I've been playing that Guildwars game recently[got bored. It was either Guild Wars or Dungeon Siege 2. I picked Guild Wars.], and I have to say, if it were more detailed and a single player game, it would be worth something.
But back to the issue. Yeah, basically the problem is that the games like AC1 may use a points proficiency system, but the problem is it's not percentile success, it's points vs points battles. In a way, it's like certain setups in Eve Online, where two players may have the same skills in the same amount, but each has different ship equipment that will change the outcome greatly. So, essentially, AC1, and Eve conversely, are spreadsheet battles.
In P's model, there will always be the pseudo-random[being that a computer cannot truely be random in number generation]chance for error. That means, luck will really 'exist' in the sense of being more present than currently [which is ZERO].
As for conqueroring a horde of orcs, dude get WarCraft III or another Fantasy RTS. RPG is not RTS. Hell, the realism concept is already infecting the FPS world save for the UT sub-genre.
Originally posted by ladyattis In P's model, there will always be the pseudo-random[being that a computer cannot truely be random in number generation]chance for error. That means, luck will really 'exist' in the sense of being more present than currently [which is ZERO].As for conqueroring a horde of orcs, dude get WarCraft III or another Fantasy RTS. RPG is not RTS. Hell, the realism concept is already infecting the FPS world save for the UT sub-genre. Then again, I could be wrong. -- Bridget
Bridget you make a good point. (thanks for bringing up Conan, I have his quote in my avatar
But yea.. I don't feel the need to kill 100s of monsters.
I think that in your characters lifetime you could have an average of a couple dozen battles at most. They would be stressfull and they would be rewarding.. you COULD go on and ON.. and if you die.. start over.
When you see a HERO in the game that has a bunch of skills and equipment.. you KNOW he had to work his way there.
This isn't going to be some TIME player it will be someone who actually i RARE.. and wow.. THAT GUY IS A CHAMPION
Sure he may die if someone is brave enough to face him. He will get experience for killing anyone who tries. So for every failed attempt they make him stronger.
If people say "Well if my character is only going to have a couple dozen battles then that would be boring!"
1- You can RP, Craft, and continue to fight until you die, hell if you have a tough party and a cleric or someone with a ressurection potion you can do just fine for 100s of fights.
2- If you idea of fun is having a character that goes through his life and kills 1000s of monsters, then you should stick to the already happy carebare games out there. Where your character is immortal.
They did develop a game pretty close to what you are looking for. It was called Star Wars Galaxies. Unfortunately, SOE never finished the game and left many game breaking bugs in at launch. SOE never understood if they had just fixed the dang game it would easily have the 1+ million players they wanted.
The marketing suits see simplified dumbed down games like WoW and assume they needed to make SWG less complex to appeal to more players.
I have a bad feeling mmorpgs will only get worse. Its already happened with rpgs as big companies buy up the little guys and innovation gets tossed out the window.
It would be good having a game where people gained exp from fighting other people. I mean you gain experience in the true sense by tackling difficult situations. Experience is fighting say a paladin for the first, a warrior for the first time, a druid for the first time.
The problem then is people need to advance as this is what a mmorpg is. Additionally, you have to be careful what the rewards of pvp are. So with both these combined you will still have a difference between the person who picks up the game and someone who has played it a while. And thats not even mentioning items.
Though GunzOnline has small advancements and small items, with its pvp staying on a par where everyone can kill everyone. Though its not really a mmorpg.
1. Have you doods ever heard of a Level and Skill based RPG!?
I played one a long time ago for a number of years, it was a brilliant and fun and balanced RPG system, that used levels to define the advancement of skills. Goes back to one post earlier that explained that skill and level based systems are just 2 versions of the same thing. Ie levels vs Skill lvls.
But of course all the differentiations between the two systems still apply.
2. Permadeath, death penalties etc.
EVE Online has this sorted perfectly in my oppinion. It has done this useing a cloning system, whereby, if your spaceship and then your escape capsule (containing you character) are destroyed, you character is actually DEAD.
Fortunatly an almost exact Clone of your character is waiting at a nearby station, waiting to be activated, so what you actually get is a clone of your character that just died.
However this requires that you have had the good sense to visit the cloning station and pay them a fairly substantial amount of money to make a clone of you. The amount of money you pay defines how good a clone it is, and the more advanced your character becomes the more you have to pay for an "Up to date" clone that will exactly replicate your character.
However if you didnt buy a clone, and you die ....thats it, your characater is lost forever.
So there is an example of a moderated perma death system, that works.
The good thing about EVE Online is that it is actually very hard to die. All of the game takes place in a spaceship, and if you spaceship is destroyed you have a saving grace, your Pod. Pods are very difficult to hit cos they move very fast....so it is very difficult to die. In EVE online, getting "Podded" is a very bad and scary thing.
This is great cos adds a sense of danger and risk to fighting in PvP. And also the sense of triumph when you actually kill your enemies character
You may not have killed him forever, but you have the "1-0" glory over him/her. And also that it will cost them some money to buy a new clone.
Anyways, I think that actual PermaDeath is kinda wrong. Just cos, yes although it may be realistic, it is terribly unfair, esp with Lag etc....and remember these are games, we are here to have fun, not have parts of ourselves (ie our characters) written out of history.
The other great thing about EVE Online is:
You dont have personal equipment Per Se, you just have the items fitted to your ship, and whats in your ships cargo hold. So if you ship is destroyed, which is equivilent to dieing in any other MMORPG, then you CAN lose all that equipment with your ship.
Not all the equipment is actually destroyed with your ship, some is left over in a cargo canister floating in space. But in order to get that equipment back, you have to actually go back in another ship and collect it. Which you may not be able to do, because as in PvP, the person who killed you will have looted that cargo canister.
These 2 factors in EVE online make the whole Combat experience highly exhilirating and risky.
When you enter a combat situation, you are not only risking your ship, which may be made out of months of money earned, you are also risking your life.
There are lots of other good things about the game dynamics of EVE Online, however as a Roleplaying Game, it sucks!!! If you like good tactical skill based PvP, then play EVE. If you like Roleplaying dont.
3. Whats wrong with the gaming industry. MMORPG vs RPG.
The idea that a pre-made set of "jump though these hoops", "kill this monster" can ever equate with Roleplaying is wrong.
Lets just get this straight. There is a "A Game" and then there is a "Roleplaying Game"
Its like the difference between playing Monopoly and going to the Theatre.
The problem with the MMORPG industry is that they are making mostly "Multiplayer Monopoly", instead of an Online Roleplaying Games.
Kind Regards,
Dyoto.
P.S. Level based systems suck!!! I despise AD&D for that very fact.
Comments
I cut the OP post to highlight a couple juicy passage in which it is evident he WAS debating level game VS skill-based games.
Now he sustain he wasn't. well, whatever.
I have 2 points to add to the discussion. Level Vs Skill and Health bar.
Level Vs Skill: for years i also was of the opinion that a skill-based game (defined as a game where your character doesn't have a level but a collection of skills and their value) was superior to a level-based game. Then my wife opened my eyes and i realized they aren't different at all.
Instead of killing monsters and rising all your abilities (but crafting), you are killing monsters and rising your sword skill.
At the end of the day, level 60 or sword level 120 boils down to the same thing with a couple variations that are not inherent in the skill or level system but in the devs vision.
A level system can be made so that you reach max level in couple months instead of couple years. So a skill system can be made that to max a skill it takes 5 years instead of 5 weeks.
One could feel more free in the skill based as you can choose what skills your characters take instead of having them ready for you, but then most people will go the known road and use "templates" anyhow. See SWG or UO for examples of that. Still, the skill based system grant a slight more freedom of choices, but give devs a much worse nightmare.
Instead of having to make sure 9-20 classes are working properly, they have a virtually unlimited amount of combos with possibly devastating results. Who could have forseen that combining Pie-Making with Club-Wielding would make a monster? nobody... but now the game is released and some player found the suppa combination and others are following suits (see: "Tank mages").. what you do? you nerf the suppa combination of course (See "Creature handler") and the people rumble.
Second point: Health bar. In Skill games, ususally, the health bar do not rise or rise relativly little in respect of what you have at start (exception: SWG post CU). That makes for a more fair system for pvp in theory as a newbie has same Hit points as the 5 years old veteran. so even the super wizard of the realm can't deal with 5 newbies.
This is good.... for pvp. but what it causate in PvE is that there will always be monsters that can't be soloed. Not only there will be some, but they will be pretty numerous, so compelling people to group to kill certain, ususal, creatures. "compelling" is most of the time a negative.
In the end, the systems are not the same, of course, but i do not feel that either one is the superior. they have inclinations for different gameplay but i won't ever say "Skill-based games are simply the way to go over level-based ones" as an absolute.
Thanks for reading.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I have to agree about the skills vs level idea. It's not whether there are levels, since even a percentile based skill set is still levels, just in a range between 0 to 99 percent [with given degrees of accuracy]. Thus, it is not whether levels should exist, it's whether one should even know they are there.
Lets consider a scenerio that's fairly simple to follow. Take a simple 'fighter/warrior/killer/etc' orientated person, maybe the person is RPing as a townguard or private in some army. Now, as this person does what s/he is doing, namely killing things for X, that person is using particular attributes that are particular to the style of combat. But it doesn't end there, the person's individual style of play[given that the developers decided to add more than just a sword] then the skills that are accrued must follow that playing style. So, you could have two townguards[PCs] that had different skill sets entirely. One could be a classic sword and shield user with little study in basic medicine. Another could focus on using a crossbow, but has little attribute training to use plate or heavy armors successfully.
To compare, Morrowind had it half right where skills defined what your level was, especially if it was a primary skill gain, but it failed in particular executions of the scheme. And that would be my particular choice, a skills proficiency system to where the skills are not inherent or necessarily related to each other [meaning that each skill would only relate if the given template were applied as the warrior/fighter/etc model as I produced]. So you wouldn't see a snazzy screen where you knew what your next skill/spell/proficiency would be. In a way, you would have to guess what it would be. You might find a crazy nut trying to be a plate armor wearing crossbowman or a magician that likes to stab things with his poisoned dagger. It would add more variety and detail to gameplay.
And I haven't even considered how to setup geography or the other elements of gameplay. Then again, I'm not a developer.
-- Bridget
It didn't take much convincing but I agree. After WoW (which is grindless in comparison to the competition) I vowed never to play another level based MMO again. Now I'll still try betas and free trials for the level based games just because I like to see what's out there. But they all come down to the same problems that the OP discussed. I want to immersed in the game from the get go - not once I've grinded my way to the point of having fun.
All of this could have been solved!!
if this were fable online
Fable:the lost chapters was fun because there was no leveling
you kill a monster you suck the green blood out of it and u upgrade your char
hm....Fable online ..interesting
I think they should start this project on one condition must not be linear!!
I totally support the health thing but comon 30 is way too low 100 is fine...
Well I will give an alternative to this level based idea. So people dont' think I am just moaning and groaning with no other alternative.
Character can have a set of certain stats.
Life Force represents the health of your character and measures her source of spirit, energy, and strength.
Dexterity represents your characters hand-eye coordination, and precise hand and arm movements.
Agility represents the nimbleness of your character as well as her skill and grace in physical movement.
Vitality represents your characters endurance and her ability to withstand hardship or stress.
Intellect represents the knowledge and education of your character as well as her job skill potential.
Wisdom represents your characters ability to utilize knowledge and experience with common sense and insight.
Personality represents the personal magnetism or charm of your character along with measuring her ability to lead and persuade others.
With these stats you can formulate a % bonus the higher the stat is. The stat value could range from -10 to +15 (or what ever formula you want)
With thise base stats you can now use these...
Assault Skills
Strength: (% of your life force value)
Melee:(hand to hand fighting with melee weapons) Dexterity mod + your Melee % [this can also be broken down to several different melee weapons as to where you Sword % + melee % + Dex %]
Aim: (shooting bow, throwing weapons) Dexterity % mod + your Aim Mod %
Conjure: (casting arcane spells) Intellect Mod % + Conjure % Mod
Focus: (casting prayers, or certain monk abilities) Wisdom % mod + your Focus % Mod
Grapple: (grabbing, wrestling) Strength % Mod + Vitality % Mod + Grapple % Mod
Defense Skills
Parry: (melee defense ability) Dexterity % mod + Parry % mod + Parry value % of wielded weapon.
Dodge: (dodging attacks that can't be parried) Agility % Mod + Parry % Mod + Armor % Penalties.
Resolve: (mental resistence from spells or mind effecting abilities) Wisdom % Mod % + Resolve % Mod
Grit: (Physical resistence to stun, critial and fatal strikes) (1/4 Life Force % mod + Toughness % mod + Grit % Mod
Common factor of these is that at no time will yoru % ever be 100% at most you may cap at 90 or so.
There is not Grind in the sense that "I have to use my sword 10000 times in order to raise my skill"
Raising Skills
Seeing as these skills are percentage based the main mechanic for calulating a skill would be as so.
Example:
Dexterity = 5 (each point = 5% to mod bonus resulting in a total of +25% Mod)
Melee = 45% + 25% Mod bonus from Dex giving a 11.25 bonus Final value : 56.25%
Sword = 30% + 56.25% Mod bonus from Dex giving a 16.875 bonus Final value : 46.875%
You have a 46.8 % chance per swing to hit a simple target withi no difficulty circomstances.
This is just a rough idea but not exact.. I could spill out my exact mechanic I use for my game, but I can't do that as of yet.
This is just a rough idea. No end skill can be above a certain %, as long as the end result never reaches 100%. There is always room for failure and always room for success.
Skills can be raised through using them. And this wont be a grind only because this is not the ONLY way to raise your skills. It can be purchaces through experience.
In this game with no LEVELS, the experience you get from kills and mission completion you can spend like cash on new abilities and to up your skills. Out side of the city your skills raise while using them. In cities your skills can be baught and new abilities can be baught with your experience pool.
You may think this is a easy fast way to excell in one area.. wich.. is true in some cases you can increase in one area very quickly. As your % get higher they will be harder and mor expensive to raise but not greatly.
One thing you may think of is wow.. my character may get boring easily.
It wont, because you wont have him for monthes. Your character CAN live awhile but the more fights you get into the higher the chances of you dieing.
There would be perma death. But it isn't the kind of thing that would bug you like you think it would.
Your character CAN kill 20 orcs by himself. If you have enough armor and are lucky enough to not get hit in an unarmored area, the weaker orcs may bounce off your armor while you kill them all with your nice weapon.
It is a MIX between LUCK, SKILL, STRAGEDY. You will have basic combat actions like, Stab, Call a Shot, Body Targeting, shield bash, charge, target effect spells, area effect spell casting. but doing certain skills will decrease your %.
As you seen in my damage example.. if you have a newbie with wicked armor and weapon, he COULD take out an experienced joe.
The reason behind having a character that is FULLY mortal and not immortal as in every other MMO. Is because of many reasons.
1- If you want an immortal character there are Dozens of MMOS out there already for you.. there is no point playing this game because this is about innovation, something new, something refreshing. if you don't like the frustration of having yoru beloved character ever dieing then play console games where you can always respawn or every other MMO.
2- Perma Death adds a much more stressfull combat experience (wich is very addicting)
3- Ressurection can be performed by other characters.. so if you travel alone or without ressurection potions or someone that can HELP ressurect you then you are risking your life.
4- You will prevent the problem where EVERYONE on the server is Wicked and or the same level and or having all the GOODS. When you live a long time in this mechanic you actually EARNED IT through luck, skill, and stradegy. If you live a long time in WOW or any other game it just shows me that you played LONG enough to get there.
5- The economy will be healthy with a character base that will constantly range from poor to rich. While in level based games. 1-2 years into the game the mojority o the characters that are in play are above the 1/2 way mark if not Maxed level. This damages economy greatly when lower level characters strggle thier way to the top.
and I could list a ton more.. but i you complain that lag or disconnects will get you kills it wont happen as much as you think. In a level based game where you have a monster that can hurt you when they hit you then yes.. eventually you will hit 0 health. In this system you could easily fight a small dog for an hour and he not hurt you once.. OR he could fight you for 10 seconds and get a random hit on your neck.. biting your throat out.
You can be frustrated if you have noone around to help you but also that characters story arc is done..
your character died by a dog.. his accomplishments will be journeled and he is dead.
By a dog.. in his great life span he ahs killed many orcs and a dragon at one point and hi many journys led him to this day where luck was against him.
It makes your characters life more valuable when you are alive.
You also wont be killing HORDES and HORDES of monsters. unless of course you want to risk your life like that and have the great armor to do it.
The RP would be amazing.
Can you imagine the sadness of your guildmates and the actually emotional depth you could have when a character of your guild or even the leader DIES??
Who takes his spot?
Wow.. amazing
But again.. if you don't like Perma Death there are TONS of games for you.. so I wont expect all the love this game.. but I think the ones that do will LOVE it.
Great OP and definitely agree. It has got very stale with a bunch of clones leading the market.
uhm... now the thread seems to have moved from speaking of Level Vs Skill to permadeath.
Well... whatever (part 2).
First, the idea you suggest, Pangaea, is practically identical as Asheron's call 1. Check it out and you find out that skills you use rise with usage and you also get experience points to distribute between whatever skill you want. It worked fairly well and was/is one of the strong point of the game. (at least for what regards skill advancement)
They don't use % in the open, but everything is based on % in any mmorpg. You have skill XX, you have XX% to hit a guy with skill YY. Writing such % in the game stats or not do not change much.
Second Perma Death. The ideas you lists are all pretty enticing on paper and i know there are a number of devs playing with the idea of having perma death. On paper.
In a game, though, perma death has a number of problems that are, maybe, hidden at first glance.
The scenario you described, of the hero that killed dragons and orks just to be slain by a dog, simply sucks and will made 99% of the players throw the game out of the window in frustration.
Can you really imagine it? How in heck a guy that managed to slaughter 20 orks can get killed by a common dog? it is not possible, period!
Now i understand it was probably an exageration, but still adding a great element of luck to a game where pearma death rules will just lead to tons of complaints and lack of players, if this is what you want, so be it.
Also about the disconnect and lag dead, you say it doesn't happen that often... but is not true. once is too many times in my book. And what would be written on that poor hero tombstone? "after crossing the Desert of Doom, killing the guardian of the Tomb of Times and retrieving the Trident of Ages, John Doe was killed by a rat while standing, in stupor, doing absolutly nothing... probably hit by some divine curse".
Again, if that happens, maybe during an epic duel in which my life could end even without lag, i would be really frustrated and just throw the cd away.
But hope is not lost, there is a fairly simple way to alleviate such problems and is to have multiple lives. your perma death comes after the XX death. then if you die once or twice for lag, it doesn't matter as you know everybody will and you have other possibilities. Of course it will happen that your last life is forfeit by the internet monster, but we can't really do much for that as there is no way for the server to know if you just pulled the plug yourself or your ISP suddenly died.
I agree with your vision of having a rapid development in a Perma death game. As people WILL die and their char get deleted, best that they didn't pass all their time as farmers but that their characters was able to reach certain levels of herohood before leaving this world. It is an intriguing concept and it has been expanded upon (with heirs, legacies and what not).
There is another problem though and that is content. such a game must be based, and strongly, on player made content. Nobody likes to do the same hand-crafted quests over and over again and in a game with permadeath that would be the case.
So, good luck to you. do not expect to have masses of people interested in the game (as it would definitly fall in the Virtual World simulator category and not in the Online CRPG), but with certain modifications, the perma death system can make for an interestign and innovative game.
Volkmar out.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Another thing which could be mentioned is healing. Again with the lifebar both are perhaps simple. I don't believe in the complexity of the OP's system in where you hit each part of the body, I'm not sure that would be too much fun. But something more complicated than person heals other person with one button.
I posted a long response, but the site ate it. THNX.
I'll post something later.
There is a % in games in the end.. but not like I am speaking.
Cause even in a level based games there is a 0% chance of a level 1 defeating a naked level 60.
He can wack on them all day.
In my system no matter how good you are, if you only have a 90% parry, 1/10 successfull hits will hit you.
Meaning you better have some good armor.
Noone can block everything no matter how good you are.
And as to your comment "Can you really imagine it? How in heck a guy that managed to slaughter 20 orks can get killed by a common dog? it is not possible, period!"
That is just silly.. sure it is POSSIBLE. The problem with the mindframe of all these gamers is that they are programmed to think HERO = IMMORTAL.
Who ever thought Achillis would die by some stupid arrow.
People think they're Conan the Barbarian. Even Conan had to think his way out of a few adventures.
In the end, the Conan mentality of a hero won't work in an RPG that's based on being multiplayer. Not everyone can be Conan. Hell, even the creators of the Age of Conan pointed out you will not be playing Conan, you will be playing your character. So, how far Funcom or any developer can take that seriousness to game aesthetic depends greatly on whether they wish to weather the typical mediocrity.
Although, I have to say, I've been playing that Guildwars game recently[got bored. It was either Guild Wars or Dungeon Siege 2. I picked Guild Wars.], and I have to say, if it were more detailed and a single player game, it would be worth something.
But back to the issue. Yeah, basically the problem is that the games like AC1 may use a points proficiency system, but the problem is it's not percentile success, it's points vs points battles. In a way, it's like certain setups in Eve Online, where two players may have the same skills in the same amount, but each has different ship equipment that will change the outcome greatly. So, essentially, AC1, and Eve conversely, are spreadsheet battles.
In P's model, there will always be the pseudo-random[being that a computer cannot truely be random in number generation]chance for error. That means, luck will really 'exist' in the sense of being more present than currently [which is ZERO].
As for conqueroring a horde of orcs, dude get WarCraft III or another Fantasy RTS. RPG is not RTS. Hell, the realism concept is already infecting the FPS world save for the UT sub-genre.
Then again, I could be wrong.
-- Bridget
Bridget you make a good point. (thanks for bringing up Conan, I have his quote in my avatar
But yea.. I don't feel the need to kill 100s of monsters.
I think that in your characters lifetime you could have an average of a couple dozen battles at most. They would be stressfull and they would be rewarding.. you COULD go on and ON.. and if you die.. start over.
When you see a HERO in the game that has a bunch of skills and equipment.. you KNOW he had to work his way there.
This isn't going to be some TIME player it will be someone who actually i RARE.. and wow.. THAT GUY IS A CHAMPION
Sure he may die if someone is brave enough to face him. He will get experience for killing anyone who tries. So for every failed attempt they make him stronger.
If people say "Well if my character is only going to have a couple dozen battles then that would be boring!"
1- You can RP, Craft, and continue to fight until you die, hell if you have a tough party and a cleric or someone with a ressurection potion you can do just fine for 100s of fights.
2- If you idea of fun is having a character that goes through his life and kills 1000s of monsters, then you should stick to the already happy carebare games out there. Where your character is immortal.
They did develop a game pretty close to what you are looking for. It was called Star Wars Galaxies. Unfortunately, SOE never finished the game and left many game breaking bugs in at launch. SOE never understood if they had just fixed the dang game it would easily have the 1+ million players they wanted.
The marketing suits see simplified dumbed down games like WoW and assume they needed to make SWG less complex to appeal to more players.
I have a bad feeling mmorpgs will only get worse. Its already happened with rpgs as big companies buy up the little guys and innovation gets tossed out the window.
It would be good having a game where people gained exp from fighting other people. I mean you gain experience in the true sense by tackling difficult situations. Experience is fighting say a paladin for the first, a warrior for the first time, a druid for the first time.
The problem then is people need to advance as this is what a mmorpg is. Additionally, you have to be careful what the rewards of pvp are. So with both these combined you will still have a difference between the person who picks up the game and someone who has played it a while. And thats not even mentioning items.
Though GunzOnline has small advancements and small items, with its pvp staying on a par where everyone can kill everyone. Though its not really a mmorpg.
To ansswer Pangaea and others....
1. Have you doods ever heard of a Level and Skill based RPG!?
I played one a long time ago for a number of years, it was a brilliant and fun and balanced RPG system, that used levels to define the advancement of skills. Goes back to one post earlier that explained that skill and level based systems are just 2 versions of the same thing. Ie levels vs Skill lvls.
But of course all the differentiations between the two systems still apply.
2. Permadeath, death penalties etc.
EVE Online has this sorted perfectly in my oppinion. It has done this useing a cloning system, whereby, if your spaceship and then your escape capsule (containing you character) are destroyed, you character is actually DEAD.
Fortunatly an almost exact Clone of your character is waiting at a nearby station, waiting to be activated, so what you actually get is a clone of your character that just died.
However this requires that you have had the good sense to visit the cloning station and pay them a fairly substantial amount of money to make a clone of you. The amount of money you pay defines how good a clone it is, and the more advanced your character becomes the more you have to pay for an "Up to date" clone that will exactly replicate your character.
However if you didnt buy a clone, and you die ....thats it, your characater is lost forever.
So there is an example of a moderated perma death system, that works.
The good thing about EVE Online is that it is actually very hard to die. All of the game takes place in a spaceship, and if you spaceship is destroyed you have a saving grace, your Pod. Pods are very difficult to hit cos they move very fast....so it is very difficult to die. In EVE online, getting "Podded" is a very bad and scary thing.
This is great cos adds a sense of danger and risk to fighting in PvP. And also the sense of triumph when you actually kill your enemies character
You may not have killed him forever, but you have the "1-0" glory over him/her. And also that it will cost them some money to buy a new clone.
Anyways, I think that actual PermaDeath is kinda wrong. Just cos, yes although it may be realistic, it is terribly unfair, esp with Lag etc....and remember these are games, we are here to have fun, not have parts of ourselves (ie our characters) written out of history.
The other great thing about EVE Online is:
You dont have personal equipment Per Se, you just have the items fitted to your ship, and whats in your ships cargo hold. So if you ship is destroyed, which is equivilent to dieing in any other MMORPG, then you CAN lose all that equipment with your ship.
Not all the equipment is actually destroyed with your ship, some is left over in a cargo canister floating in space. But in order to get that equipment back, you have to actually go back in another ship and collect it. Which you may not be able to do, because as in PvP, the person who killed you will have looted that cargo canister.
These 2 factors in EVE online make the whole Combat experience highly exhilirating and risky.
When you enter a combat situation, you are not only risking your ship, which may be made out of months of money earned, you are also risking your life.
There are lots of other good things about the game dynamics of EVE Online, however as a Roleplaying Game, it sucks!!! If you like good tactical skill based PvP, then play EVE. If you like Roleplaying dont.
3. Whats wrong with the gaming industry. MMORPG vs RPG.
The idea that a pre-made set of "jump though these hoops", "kill this monster" can ever equate with Roleplaying is wrong.
Lets just get this straight. There is a "A Game" and then there is a "Roleplaying Game"
Its like the difference between playing Monopoly and going to the Theatre.
The problem with the MMORPG industry is that they are making mostly "Multiplayer Monopoly", instead of an Online Roleplaying Games.
Kind Regards,
Dyoto.
P.S. Level based systems suck!!! I despise AD&D for that very fact.