EQN Next - How they could have kept Vet players and bring in new.

tort0429 · August 2014

Ok, first off I know nothing about how graphic engines work, their cost and how much they have to do with the art in a game, so my idea here could be a complete pipe dream or fantasy, but if only....

In eq2 you have the option of selecting a character 'model' type. US type or European type, I believe. When selecting one or the other, your character's appearence completely changes. So, why not have the same type of option in EQN but on a larger scale.

Meaning, suppose you had to versions of EQN. One called EQN-YA (young adult) and EQN-MA (mature adult). When installing the software, you select which type you want. The YA version is the current cartooney style version many of the vets don't like and the MA version could be more in line with eq2 graphics but better since that is a 10 year old game.

Now you reach the new target younger audience and also keep the Vets dedicated to EQ1 and EQ2.

Again, not knowing anything about graphic engines, cost, etc.. this could be something that is just too costly a risk for them to take, but how awesome would it be to have the option to pick one or the other - the best of both worlds.

Play with my kids on EQN - YA and then later with my adult friends on EQN - MA. This of course assumes that many of the vets will not play the cartooney version. Me personally, if the game is fun it's fun, but I do prefer a non - cartooney graphic game so wish this was even possible.

I know, I like dreaming.

tawess · August 2014

Or they just keep it as it is and see a massive bunch of those vets who said "will not play" come slinking with the tail between their legs and a "it was not as bad" excuse.

But as for your idea. It is ofc doable, it would perhaps tax the network part of things more then any GFX part as it would be a double set of "head geometry data" being sent back and forth. The reason i say it is doable is because this is exactly how WoW solves their new/old model issue.

Then again i feel your entire argument/idea is invalid due to your very narrow view on art and style.

Young adult my posterior... Mature my posterior... Had you gone the stylized/"realistic" route ... we might have had something to talk about [mod edit]

But yes.. your idea is doable, they most likley choose not to do it in order to save money and bandwith.

Aelious · August 2014

It's always good to allow options especially in this case where there is a historical subset that may or may not like the new style. It would be very hard to get an accurate account of how many original EQ vets would not like the art style enough not to play.

Would they create a whole separate subset of characters and textures? They could be doubtful. Instead they have already begun tightening up the characters and improving textures. I think the final version of EQN/Landmark will be less cartoony and putty than it may look now. It may not be by an extreme degree but higher fidelity and a detail could take the edge off for those on the fence.

tort0429 · August 2014

Originally posted by tawess
Or they just keep it as it is and see a massive bunch of those vets who said "will not play" come slinking with the tail between their legs and a "it was not as bad" excuse.

But as for your idea. It is ofc doable, it would perhaps tax the network part of things more then any GFX part as it would be a double set of "head geometry data" being sent back and forth. The reason i say it is doable is because this is exactly how WoW solves their new/old model issue.

Then again i feel your entire argument/idea is invalid due to your very narrow view on art and style.

Young adult my posterior... Mature my posterior... Had you gone the stylized/"realistic" route ... we might have had something to talk about but honestly i do not feel it is worth doing that with you... Seeing how most concepts i would present woudl fly far over your head.

But yes.. your idea is doable, they most likley choose not to do it in order to save money and bandwith.

I appreciate your reply and honesty, however, this suggestion was not based on my 'narrow view' of art and style but rather based on the posts I read on this forum.

As far as my view, I have two children, watch cartoons with them constantly and love them, especially good quality cartoons. I have a huge collection of comics, because my 'narrow view' of art and style allows me to appreciate good comic art. I play all games that are fun, art style is not a show stopper for me so therefore the way eqn is now will not stop me from trying it.

As far as fly far over my head, you are probably right, as I stated in my post, not an expert in game design, etc... You are obviously passionate and maybe knowledgeable about style and art, so I appreciate your reply. So having said that, my wording of the two types of games may not be accurate so I'm curious, what would you call two different versions of a game based on different art/style/realistic design?

Maelwydd · August 2014

EQN is a reboot.

Meaning SOE have no problem with those that still want to play EQ or EQII to keep playing them. For anyone wishing to play in the EQ universe they will now have 3 options to choose from.

This doesn't have to be an either / or option. I currently have EQ, EQII and Landmark installed along will many other games. I will probably play both Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous when they release. Anyone who only supports 1 game and puts down other games is just childish. The same goes for those complaining about EQN not being EQIII. If you like the game you will play it if not you have your favourite game already, stop complaining.

Mendel · August 2014

The idea of multiple art sets for the same game is okay. The problem to solve would be keeping the art sets separate without requiring the company to throw money (multiple servers) or resources (art staff) at the issue. As I see it, this idea would only accommodate a subset of current MMORPG players.

I don't see any reason for SOE to adapt this approach. I do not believe that anyone currently playing an MMORPG or anyone who has ever played any MMORPG is Sony's audience for EQN. We do things like play games, and talk on MMORPG.com. I believe that the primary target audience for SOE is those players that will never see MMORPG.com, the discussion forums or development material. It's the only logical way to expand the player base (grow the marketplace). Where this market is, and who those people are, I don't know.

Aelious · August 2014

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Mendel
The idea of multiple art sets for the same game is okay. The problem to solve would be keeping the art sets separate without requiring the company to throw money (multiple servers) or resources (art staff) at the issue. As I see it, this idea would only accommodate a subset of current MMORPG players.

I don't see any reason for SOE to adapt this approach. I do not believe that anyone currently playing an MMORPG or anyone who has ever played any MMORPG is Sony's audience for EQN. We do things like play games, and talk on MMORPG.com. I believe that the primary target audience for SOE is those players that will never see MMORPG.com, the discussion forums or development material. It's the only logical way to expand the player base (grow the marketplace). Where this market is, and who those people are, I don't know.

I agree with SoE looking for a completely new target audience with EQN.

EQN will be playable with a controller, I think an action game console player is the target audience.

Sure the game will have appeal to all players to some extent - but tapping into the vast console market would make the most sense.

I agree with this but honestly hope they expand the combat abilities a little. It doesn't have to be the full 20-40 abilities of tab target MMOs but enough to make some on the fly tactical choices while in combat. An ability tier system like Aion would go a long way in making combat fun, not as redundant and still allow eight button ability combat.

I still haven't posted on the official forums, though there may be a thread already, about not falling into Wildstar territory. WS was great at giving you tactical choices outside of combat but within the limited choice of static abilities made combat seem redundant after a while. Maybe with the full reticle system EQN looks to have and extra bilities via gear the combat will stay fresh between fights. I'm not sure though and hope for some "flyout" system.

Nanfoodle · August 2014

Ya the cost to make an MMO like that would be crazy and the time it would take to make it would cost even more. EQ2 updated their graphics and some didnt like the new models. So they let people choose to switch. The updated char models in EQ2 are very slight and in the same art style. No one would be willing to pay what that game would cost and by the time they finished it, it would be outdated.

Knytta · August 2014

You also forget that the art direction of the EQN already is decided, the areas you saw in the class presentation videos from SOE live was player made. If you put a realistic looking toon in that environment it would look absolutely awful, the EQN models must fit the art direction of the game. Also having mixed models in a game that differ that much (original EQ2 and SOGA models was not extremely different) would be a total immersion breaker.

In 2004 we saw the premiers of Polar Express and the The Incredibles, Polar Express was a good movie but it had realistic models, look at the movie today and you will see how dated it looks, The Incredibles still look ok. Realistic models is not the way to go.

Kyleran · August 2014

They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

Aelious · August 2014

Kyleran

What features of EQ made it "EQ"? Those of us who played and enjoyed it may have a different answer but when I see comments about how different EQN will be than its predecessors I wonder what aspects are being referred to. Tab target vs reticle combat? Art style? Level of difficulty or need for friends?

You mentioned ESO so you may be referring to the combat style rather than art style. For me personally if EQN has a decent level of difficulty (not faceroll easy) and a solid amount of group content it may be more like EQ than EQ2 IMO and for all intents and purposes be EQ3.

Edit: This question is probably worth its own topic since it is off topic here.

Gallus85 · August 2014

Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems. So don't make such blanket statements please. It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't. It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

azzamasin · August 2014

Originally posted by tawess
Or they just keep it as it is and see a massive bunch of those vets who said "will not play" come slinking with the tail between their legs and a "it was not as bad" excuse.

But as for your idea. It is ofc doable, it would perhaps tax the network part of things more then any GFX part as it would be a double set of "head geometry data" being sent back and forth. The reason i say it is doable is because this is exactly how WoW solves their new/old model issue.

Then again i feel your entire argument/idea is invalid due to your very narrow view on art and style.

Young adult my posterior... Mature my posterior... Had you gone the stylized/"realistic" route ... we might have had something to talk about [mod edit]

But yes.. your idea is doable, they most likley choose not to do it in order to save money and bandwith.

This.

Personally I'm fine if these so called vets refuse to play the game. Too elitist for open ended worlds IMHO.

Rydeson · August 2014

Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems. So don't make such blanket statements please. It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't. It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob? or the skill of quad kiting? or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"? or did you mean "fear kiting"? Will EQN allow mass mez? and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc.. I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext???? I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

Nadia · August 2014

Originally posted by tort0429
In eq2 you have the option of selecting a character 'model' type. US type or European type, I believe. When selecting one or the other, your character's appearence completely changes. So, why not have the same type of option in EQN but on a larger scale.

i think offering two art sets of character models is waste of dev resources

SOE did this twice

in EQ1 with the Luclin expansion in 2002 (players could choose new or old models)

in EQ2, the SOGA models were created to promote EQ2 to the Asian market

Nadia · August 2014

Originally posted by Kyleran

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

agree

in the same way that EQ2 was not like EQ1

-- and disappointed some EQ1 players wanting EQ1 with new graphics

tawess · August 2014

Originally posted by tort0429
Originally posted by tawess
Or they just keep it as it is and see a massive bunch of those vets who said "will not play" come slinking with the tail between their legs and a "it was not as bad" excuse.

But as for your idea. It is ofc doable, it would perhaps tax the network part of things more then any GFX part as it would be a double set of "head geometry data" being sent back and forth. The reason i say it is doable is because this is exactly how WoW solves their new/old model issue.

Then again i feel your entire argument/idea is invalid due to your very narrow view on art and style.

Young adult my posterior... Mature my posterior... Had you gone the stylized/"realistic" route ... we might have had something to talk about but honestly i do not feel it is worth doing that with you... Seeing how most concepts i would present woudl fly far over your head.

But yes.. your idea is doable, they most likley choose not to do it in order to save money and bandwith.

I appreciate your reply and honesty, however, this suggestion was not based on my 'narrow view' of art and style but rather based on the posts I read on this forum.

As far as my view, I have two children, watch cartoons with them constantly and love them, especially good quality cartoons. I have a huge collection of comics, because my 'narrow view' of art and style allows me to appreciate good comic art. I play all games that are fun, art style is not a show stopper for me so therefore the way eqn is now will not stop me from trying it.

As far as fly far over my head, you are probably right, as I stated in my post, not an expert in game design, etc... You are obviously passionate and maybe knowledgeable about style and art, so I appreciate your reply. So having said that, my wording of the two types of games may not be accurate so I'm curious, what would you call two different versions of a game based on different art/style/realistic design?

Sorry i appologise for my overly hostile tone. I was tired and in a bad mood. No excuse really but i´l give it any way. It is just that the lable of anything that has that.. shall we call it disney/dreamworks style... As young adult just rubs me the very wrong way. Content is always more important they style, and while exaggerated design is often linked to childrens media to say that something is targeting a specific demographic based only on the visual style is... Well... bad. Take wildstar for an example... In te first hour of gameplay you could have engaged in torture or having to watch a med-evac full of people, one beinga pregnant woman.. being blown out of the sky.. That is not exactly kids stuff now is it...

By the same token when i was young i could rent a fairly uncut version of Silver Fang (Ginga Nagareboshi Gin).. A series with enough blood and visual death to give a live action movie slapped with a adult rating. But since it was animated it had to be kids stuff...

So to explain why i think that your idea of a YA/Mature mark is bad.. It calls in to effect having to re-write story and dialogue because those labels carry with them pre-baked ideas of what to expect.

As to what i would call them... How about simply stylized and realistic if you want two different designs. Now ofc making a double set of EVERY single texture and model in the game is... well... a insane amount of work... But it is in theory doable, as i said.

sgtalon · August 2014

I don't think graphics have a thing to do with why people are turned off by EQN. It is the Pay2Test model that they have.

If you want to play Landmark you have to give them $40. Regular Beta invites are only 7 days.

No thanks. I will play EQ:N but I won't be participating in a beta that I have to pay for... Esoecially for a game that is going to be FREE!!!!

Nadia · August 2014

Originally posted by sgtalon
I don't think graphics have a thing to do with why people are turned off by EQN. It is the Pay2Test model that they have.

If you want to play Landmark you have to give them $40. Regular Beta invites are only 7 days.

No thanks. I will play EQ:N but I won't be participating in a beta that I have to pay for... Esoecially for a game that is going to be FREE!!!!

the game is not released yet

if you want to play Landmark while the game is being built, yes, you can pay for the privelege

the lowest cost is $20.00

https://www.landmarkthegame.com/news/wal-mart-exclusive-landmark-card-bonus-packs-2000-station-cash-lm

and if you buy it at Walmart, comes with $20.00 worth of Station Cash useable in any SOE game

Gallus85 · August 2014

Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems. So don't make such blanket statements please. It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't. It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob?

EQN might have that, especially since the game will have monks.

or the skill of quad kiting? Ya running around in a circle as a druid in EQ1 getting more exp than other classes could due to imbalance took a lot of "skill" lol. No but seriously, what does this have to do with anything I said?

or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"? 40 classes, and a whole set of skills dedicated to "utility". I would be surprised if illusions and animal forms weren't in the game.

or did you mean "fear kiting"? I'm sure different builds and different classes in EQN will have different solo play styles.

Will EQN allow mass mez? CC is going to be a large part of EQN, as already stated by the devs.

and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc.. I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext???? I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

As I already said, utility skills have already been addressed. Offensive, Defensive, Movement, Utility. So they're dedicating a whole skill-type to utility. Things like SoW, levitate, invis, clarity, and many more will probably be making it into the game.

I was more specifically referring to things like slow monotonous vertical progression, tab target combat that have been done to death over the past 15 years.

keenber · August 2014

Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems. So don't make such blanket statements please. It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't. It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob?

EQN might have that, especially since the game will have monks.

or the skill of quad kiting? Ya running around in a circle as a druid in EQ1 getting more exp than other classes could due to imbalance took a lot of "skill" lol. No but seriously, what does this have to do with anything I said?

or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"? 40 classes, and a whole set of skills dedicated to "utility". I would be surprised if illusions and animal forms weren't in the game.

or did you mean "fear kiting"? I'm sure different builds and different classes in EQN will have different solo play styles.

Will EQN allow mass mez? CC is going to be a large part of EQN, as already stated by the devs.

and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc.. I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext???? I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

As I already said, utility skills have already been addressed. Offensive, Defensive, Movement, Utility. So they're dedicating a whole skill-type to utility. Things like SoW, levitate, invis, clarity, and many more will probably be making it into the game.

I was more specifically referring to things like slow monotonous vertical progression, tab target combat that have been done to death over the past 15 years.

From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of gang banging the mobs . Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing. Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other. When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics. Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

This can off course all change by the time it is released but I don't believe with the voxel graphics and NPC ai they had any choice but choose the low graphic color pallet.

DamonVile · August 2014

Originally posted by DMKano

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

For a very small group of people.

Gallus85 · August 2014

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems. So don't make such blanket statements please. It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't. It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob? or the skill of quad kiting? or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"? or did you mean "fear kiting"? Will EQN allow mass mez? and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc.. I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext???? I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

To expand on features that EQ1 has that have been abandoned by most new MMOs:

1. No mob leashing - for those unfamiliar with the term, it means once you aggroed something it would NOT give up chase until you died, you zoned or killed whatever was after you. This mechanic alone led to lots of emergent gameplay - such as kiting, fear kiting, quadding, swarming, training(as in train of mobs on another player) pet kiting, etc....

EQN will be seamless world - meaning mobs will leash, so you can just keep running past them and they will leash back to their spawn - just mount up and run past stuff - easy mode, yes so many new games are like this, I am not a fan.

2. Split pulling/aggro control - in EQ1 almost all NPCs had a faction, and NPCs friendly to each other would jump to each others aid in combat. Example you are fighting an Orc, another Orc wandering by would normally just walk by but will jump to aid of his Orc friend and attack you.

Classes were given tools to wipe aggro so there was an entire emergent gameplay when it came to splitting mobs that would normally come in a large group - feign death, pet pulling, mez, stun, fear etc... lots of abilities were used in combinations to split seemingly impossible groups of mobs.

EQN - we don't know yet, I doubt that we will see such deep aggro management system

3. super slow combat - a combat round in EQ1 was 6 seconds, yeah unheard of in today's MMORPGs. You would miss more often than hit as mobs would block, dodge, parry, spells could fizzle, AE spells would also hit YOU, so you could kill yourself in combat with your own AE spells. The slow pacing of combat gave players more time for strategic play as well as being able to type and chat.

EQN combat again - seems very fast - as something you'd see in a console fighting game (which I am a fan of) but it kills more strategic combat as action happens too fast. Its closer to a single player action game, also voice chat will be mandatory as you can't type and do action combat at the same time

4. Death sting - you die, all of your gear is on your corpse - you are naked hungry and thirsty and need to retrieve your corpse which could be an hour away (as boats were SLOW). Maybe you could find a friendly wizard or druid to give you a teleport to a nearby zone, and maybe a friendly necro would summon your corpse once you got to the zone? Player interdependence - EQ1 had it in spades.

I seriously doubt that EQN will have anything remotely close

Call these systems archaic - they are still revolutionary. EQ1s world was harsh and unforgiving, which made it rewarding and fun as well.

Those systems aren't revolutionary.

1. Mob leashing is put in place so you don't got one guy with a speed spell pulling the entire area, or world, creating massive technical and game play problems. And most games that have leashing still have things like kiting. I think the point is to make combat fun and allowing for different playstyles without allowing for cheap tricks that get people kills they should not be getting (kiting a raid mob solo for example). But EQN could quite possibly have a great combat system. They've already expressed that skill will matter, there will be an array of different play styles and CC is coming back in a huge way. What's not to be excited about? That it's different? Welcome to reality where everything isn't an exact clone.

2. EQN will have monks. Nothing says EQN can't/won't have split pulling. It might have it. It might not.

3. Slow combat is revolutionary? It's just a different* design. Just because you prefer* something doesn't make it revolutionary lol.

4. LoK and UO had far worst death penalties than EQ for example, and a lot of games after EQ released had worst penalties. The point is that they need to make it so death is something you want to avoid, but without making it so stupidly painful that everyone hides from conflict or refuses to take part in big events where death is likely.

I seriously doubt EQN will fail to deliver a good experience for those who are open minded and willing to adapt.

amx23 · August 2014

Originally posted by keenber
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Kyleran
They are less concerned with appealing to the Vet EQ crowd as it is a very small subset of their target audience, the mega millions of game players who've joined the genre since then and who clearly prefer a different playable.

This will be in almost no way EQ3, and far closer to ESO and other more modern, action combat MMOs.

I'm an old school EQ vet. I followed news on the game for months and was there on day 1, March 16th, 1999 at the store to pick up my copy and I played it nearly every day for about 5 years.

I think they are appealing directly to me because to me EQ was about the adventure, growing a character and socializing with people.

EQN is offering horizontal progression and giving a true free-roaming adventure experience.

Emergent AI, voxels and proceedurly generated content is going to make the free-roaming world fresh and interesting to explore for years on end and won't relegate me to a few "high level zones".

High levels of character customization (their horizontal gear system, multiclassing, etc).

Getting back to the Tank/Healer/CC trilogy.

Massive world changing events with rallying calls.

etc etc.

I'm an EQ vet and I feel they are aiming right at me without resorting to archaic and dated mechanics and systems. So don't make such blanket statements please. It's ok if you don't think the game will appeal to you, but don't act as if they're alienating "EQ vets". You either like what they're offering or you don't. It has little or nothing to do with being an EQ vet or not.

Archaic game play like the art of "pulling" a single mob?

EQN might have that, especially since the game will have monks.

or the skill of quad kiting? Ya running around in a circle as a druid in EQ1 getting more exp than other classes could due to imbalance took a lot of "skill" lol. No but seriously, what does this have to do with anything I said?

or the archaic ability to morph or use illusions to avoid detection like "Wolf Form"? 40 classes, and a whole set of skills dedicated to "utility". I would be surprised if illusions and animal forms weren't in the game.

or did you mean "fear kiting"? I'm sure different builds and different classes in EQN will have different solo play styles.

Will EQN allow mass mez? CC is going to be a large part of EQN, as already stated by the devs.

and what about archaic skills like "levitate" etc etc.. I loved being a druid in EQ1.. I wonder if SOE has "ME" targeted when they created EQNext???? I better have "snare and SoW" when I play a druid, or all hell will break lose.. LOL

As I already said, utility skills have already been addressed. Offensive, Defensive, Movement, Utility. So they're dedicating a whole skill-type to utility. Things like SoW, levitate, invis, clarity, and many more will probably be making it into the game.

I was more specifically referring to things like slow monotonous vertical progression, tab target combat that have been done to death over the past 15 years.

From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of gang banging the mobs . Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing. Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other. When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics. Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

This can off course all change by the time it is released but I don't believe with the voxel graphics and NPC ai they had any choice but choose the low graphic color pallet.

Try zerging a "whirldwind" attack...The combat being a moba CC would be like controlling the battlefield. there are different variations to control the battle field for example the cleric and elementalist. They havent showed the bard or enchanter or other cc classes yet. And they are right, In the original Everquest the warrior can out dps a rogue and other melee classes traded off damage output for their ability to be a "Hybrid". So there was no dps class in the formula other than trade offs for abilities like lockpicking and sneak and magic or feign death.So healing armor or health or both in certain situations can be a more interesting way of just healing hitpoints. More tactical too, So you have to be good as a healer. While the enchanter heals energy i think that will be the only class that will have little offensive ability and just stick to crowd control. There is no taunt and the enemies are smart they will just cc the tank to get to the healer anyway for example. anyone who is doing the most effectiveness in the fight they will target. Try zerging an elementalist mob who is more dangerous close to mid range and has the ability to set people on fire. Who knows what they have in store...

amx23 · August 2014

I mean have you ever rushed tanks to a mob and that has AE and while the tanks are getting slaughtered the healers are just spamming the heal button? The general feeling is "Oh fuck". How tactical. Must be the holy trinity at work all the "strategists" were talking about.

Its been said the mobs in EQNext will never fight the same way so theres no raid leader on team speak telling us how to take down the target after the third try. Its not predictable and depends on what is being done in the battlefield. Thats Emergent A.I. Wouldn't you want to play a game like that?

Gallus85 · August 2014

Originally posted by keenber
From what I understand there will be nothing but aoe and GW2 tactics of gang banging the mobs .

Nope. Don't know who told you that, but that's incorrect.

Cc will be nothing like EQ it will just be a wall or root type thing.

Do you want EQ1.5 or do you want a new game? EQN will have CC as a major part of the gameplay as already stated by the devs and you have no gameplay experience in EQN to see if they were lying or not.

Mezzes, snares, roots, stuns, knockbacks, fears and all sorts of other abilities will be a great way to fight large groups of mobs. This has already been stated by the devs. Sure you might want to be pessimistic about their ability to do it well, and in the end it might suck, but nothing they've shown so far and nothing they've said about the game's development could lead you to making any meaningful judgement about this right now. All we have really are their words, which directly contradict your comments.

Pulling will be none unless mobs are sociable and not tethered to each other.

Maybe. And do you somehow know for a fact that all mobs won't be tethered together?

When any class can heal and tank then there will be no healer/tank tactics.

Incorrect, there will just be larger variety of tactics to use. Some groups may have dedicated healers with a dedicated tank. Other groups might go very CC heavy and use kiting and control to kill mobs safely. Another group might have everyone be a jack of all trades to make up for no dedicated healer/tank. The point of EQN's system is to give players freedom in the character's they build, instead of forcing a rigid group makeup with limited tactics and choices to choose from..

Without tab targeting this is just gonna be a gank fest and with the lack of options when fighting everybody is gonna be left running in circles shooting of aoes. The only way this resembles EQ is in name and the name of places.

More useless babbling based on zero evidence. I could completely understand if you got to play a beta, a few weeks before official launch and you saw this first hand, but you haven't even seen game play yet. So you're just rambling about nonsense you know nothing about.

The art style is terrible and is a huge off put for anybody even console players that want to get immersed in a game for any length of time.

Subjective. I personally like the art style. I like that characters have a huge range of emotion through very complex facial animations with large prominent features that are easy to see. If I could flip a switch and put Black Desert's or ESO's art style into EQN, or keep it the same... I would keep it as it is. I like that EQN's characters don't look like bland lifeless dolls, like they do in BD and ESO for example. But this is opinion of course.

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