You clearly are missing how Elite is ran. Normal mmos are ran on a server, which uploads and downloads to every one. Hence to play eve online you would only require less then 100kbs down, and 20kbs up. In elite, there is no main server. When the people connect together it sucks all the internet from the people.
Last i played it didnt even work right, people with crappy internet would become host, making every one disconnect. The way they have it running doesnt work at all, and never will. In order to host a game with 32 players, you would need atleast 100 mbits upload, and 100 mbits download, for it to run smoothly. Not many people have that kind of internet connection.
Now this isnt even getting into the fact that every one, is from a different location. So if the guy that got put as the host, is from lets say china, and every one else was from the USA, every one would have ping above 400, but the host which would have 0 ping. The other thing is since it is using that shitty system, the host is always going to have a advantage over every one else, because he is going to have 0 ping, while every one else will have more then that [...]
It seems you don't know what you are talking about as well. A 32 multiplayer needs 100 MBits bandwidth in both directions? That's over 3 MBits up-/ downstream of data for each single player involved. You could simultaniously send and recieve 30 1080p H.264 encoded videos with that amount of bandwidth!!! So, even if the devs of Elite Dangerous are incredibly incompetent, that 'll never happen.
And even you mention that normally the data send to and recieved from a centralised host (aka server) are in the range of 100 KBits per player. So, tell me: why should it increase by a factor of 30 if you make one player the decentralised host? That doesn't make any sense at all. If I send 31x100 KBits and recieve 31x100 Kbits (which is worst case scenario), it sums up to around 3 MBits bidirectional bandwith. So where are the other bidrectional 97 MBits coming from? You host the game for 900 other players as well, even if you don't play with them? Maybe there was a bug, but this game isn't ready yet, so ...
And why should the netcode match people all around the world, unless you choose to play with them by choice? It's more than likely that devs implement something to eliminate those scenarios. Maybe it's not in the gamecode at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard and far from impossible. So, it's likely that most of the time it won't happen at all either.
The FULLY OPEN portion of the game, which is at all time optional, could concievably be compared to EVE's gate campers to some extent. At least it is somewhat possible to "camp" stations or star systems. However, the game also comes with single player and "friends only" modes of play. So, you never need to worry about those campers (unless they are your friends in friend only mode)...just don't ever play in the Opne mode. And it does not matter which mode you play, your progress (or failures) are saved for ALL modes. In other words, if you progress and purchase a new ship in Single player, you will have that same ship in Open or friends only mode. I like this as it lets me decide how I want to play and not the gankers/griefers.
You clearly are missing how Elite is ran. Normal mmos are ran on a server, which uploads and downloads to every one. Hence to play eve online you would only require less then 100kbs down, and 20kbs up. In elite, there is no main server. When the people connect together it sucks all the internet from the people.
Last i played it didnt even work right, people with crappy internet would become host, making every one disconnect. The way they have it running doesnt work at all, and never will. In order to host a game with 32 players, you would need atleast 100 mbits upload, and 100 mbits download, for it to run smoothly. Not many people have that kind of internet connection.
Now this isnt even getting into the fact that every one, is from a different location. So if the guy that got put as the host, is from lets say china, and every one else was from the USA, every one would have ping above 400, but the host which would have 0 ping. The other thing is since it is using that shitty system, the host is always going to have a advantage over every one else, because he is going to have 0 ping, while every one else will have more then that [...]
It seems you don't know what you are talking about as well. A 32 multiplayer needs 100 MBits bandwidth in both directions? That's over 3 MBits up-/ downstream of data for each single player involved. You could simultaniously send and recieve 30 1080p H.264 encoded videos with that amount of bandwidth!!! So, even if the devs of Elite Dangerous are incredibly incompetent, that 'll never happen.
And even you mention that normally the data send to and recieved from a centralised host (aka server) are in the range of 100 KBits per player. So, tell me: why should it increase by a factor of 30 if you make one player the decentralised host? That doesn't make any sense at all. If I send 31x100 KBits and recieve 31x100 Kbits (which is worst case scenario), it sums up to around 3 MBits bidirectional bandwith. So where are the other bidrectional 97 MBits coming from? You host the game for 900 other players as well, even if you don't play with them? Maybe there was a bug, but this game isn't ready yet, so ...
And why should the netcode match people all around the world, unless you choose to play with them by choice? It's more than likely that devs implement something to eliminate those scenarios. Maybe it's not in the gamecode at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard and far from impossible. So, it's likely that most of the time it won't happen at all either.
The last time i played it required alot more then 100kbits a second per person. My internet was always maxed, which was 3000kbits down, and 400kbits up. When i hosted Dayz, it required 1000mbits up and down to host over 64 players and keep things smooth. 100mbit up and down, would be seriously pushing a game with 32 players. But even at your generous figure of them fixing it, which i doubt, and people only require 10 kbtyes up, which isnt going to happen lol. I dono what world u live in, but a gave like eve will require way more then that. Even A old ass game like Ulitma Online need more then 10 kilo bytes up. So im going to raise it to a more realistic number like 100 kbytes down, and 40 kbtyes up.
Even with that number that means the host would have to have 3mbs up and down. Now maybe in other countrys the internet is smoking, but in the usa. That 3mbs up and down, is a tiny portion of what people have for internet. Not to mention the average house hold shares their internet with their family. So now your ethier going to have to get a dedicated internet connection to just play elite, or when u start playing your familys going be like o god, hes playing that stupid game again, now no one can use the internet. That is a low number, in reality each player is going to be using more like 250kbtyes down, and 100kbtyes up.
As for p2p being a long accept for a mmo, i dono what world u live in..... The only games that use p2p are games like diablo 2, and some RTS games. Other then that NO. And all those games are lobby based games, with small amounts of players. Not a huge persistent world, where 1000s of people connect to each other. I am sorry but the people who are making this game, have no idea what they are doing. They should of stuck to single player, their online part of the game is a joke, and is never going to work right for the mass majority of people.
Do a poll on here, on how many of even the people on here want their ISP maxed out to it limits for 12 hours while they play. I some times leave my game on. The easier way to see, is just look at a p2p download, the leechers way out number the seeders, because not many people want thier internet constantly maxed out.
If all of a sudden all the mmos, started maxing out their customers bandwith they would start losing them by the 1000s. If you logged on to one world of warcraft account, and it sucked your isp dry, no where near the amount of people would be playing it.
So here is my perdiction, you are going to have billons of star systems, and like 100 people playing who live alone, or can afford a dedicated internet connection just to play elite. Its gonna be the people who spent 1000 dollars on one of those joysticks to play. The rest, are just going to play off line.
The FULLY OPEN portion of the game, which is at all time optional, could concievably be compared to EVE's gate campers to some extent. At least it is somewhat possible to "camp" stations or star systems. However, the game also comes with single player and "friends only" modes of play. So, you never need to worry about those campers (unless they are your friends in friend only mode)...just don't ever play in the Opne mode. And it does not matter which mode you play, your progress (or failures) are saved for ALL modes. In other words, if you progress and purchase a new ship in Single player, you will have that same ship in Open or friends only mode. I like this as it lets me decide how I want to play and not the gankers/griefers.
That is def not how it is going to work, go read all the forums. If you play single player u cant just transfer to the mulitplayer server. The only thing you can do as single player, is have the database, which they run, which stores all the effects from the mulitplayer. You cant just switch back and forth like that lol.
For damn good reason 2, if you could just switch back and forth like that can u imagine the cheating that would occur lol. Havent you ever seen diablo 2 offline trainers. It would be that, people would make a trainer, you would pack your single player character with so many credits the best armor and weapons, and then load onto the mulitplayer server.
You clearly are missing how Elite is ran. Normal mmos are ran on a server, which uploads and downloads to every one. Hence to play eve online you would only require less then 100kbs down, and 20kbs up. In elite, there is no main server. When the people connect together it sucks all the internet from the people.
Last i played it didnt even work right, people with crappy internet would become host, making every one disconnect. The way they have it running doesnt work at all, and never will. In order to host a game with 32 players, you would need atleast 100 mbits upload, and 100 mbits download, for it to run smoothly. Not many people have that kind of internet connection.
Now this isnt even getting into the fact that every one, is from a different location. So if the guy that got put as the host, is from lets say china, and every one else was from the USA, every one would have ping above 400, but the host which would have 0 ping. The other thing is since it is using that shitty system, the host is always going to have a advantage over every one else, because he is going to have 0 ping, while every one else will have more then that [...]
It seems you don't know what you are talking about as well. A 32 multiplayer needs 100 MBits bandwidth in both directions? That's over 3 MBits up-/ downstream of data for each single player involved. You could simultaniously send and recieve 30 1080p H.264 encoded videos with that amount of bandwidth!!! So, even if the devs of Elite Dangerous are incredibly incompetent, that 'll never happen.
And even you mention that normally the data send to and recieved from a centralised host (aka server) are in the range of 100 KBits per player. So, tell me: why should it increase by a factor of 30 if you make one player the decentralised host? That doesn't make any sense at all. If I send 31x100 KBits and recieve 31x100 Kbits (which is worst case scenario), it sums up to around 3 MBits bidirectional bandwith. So where are the other bidrectional 97 MBits coming from? You host the game for 900 other players as well, even if you don't play with them? Maybe there was a bug, but this game isn't ready yet, so ...
And why should the netcode match people all around the world, unless you choose to play with them by choice? It's more than likely that devs implement something to eliminate those scenarios. Maybe it's not in the gamecode at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard and far from impossible. So, it's likely that most of the time it won't happen at all either.
[...] I dono what world u live in, but a gave like eve will require way more then that. Even A old ass game like Ulitma Online need more then 10 kilo bytes up. So im going to raise it to a more realistic number like 100 kbytes down, and 40 kbtyes up. [...]
Look, it wasn't me who made up the 100 Kbits. You did. Read carefully your own post (that one I quoted, I even marked it for you now to help you remember). I only took your assumptions and numbers and calculated a bit with them to question their plausibility. I haven't made any other claim besides that your numbers are not plausible.
And like I said: I highly doubt you will ever need 100 MBit for a mutliplayer. That's 100 Million Bit per second. What should be transmitted with that amount of data that is essential for a working multiplayer? You can claim aynthing you want, but better come up with some facts if you want someone to believe you. And be sure it's not a bug or something else on your end that produces this scenario (like e.g. being part of a worldwide botnet or so, that would be at least plausible ).
That's the world I live in: claim something, deliver facts for it. But with your second post (wall of text with not much evidence as well) you at least come closer to something believable. So I give you the benefit of doubt. After all it's the internet and I can't seriously expect that someone tries to deliver evidence for his claims, even if they are far from anything that could be called plausible ...
You clearly are missing how Elite is ran. Normal mmos are ran on a server, which uploads and downloads to every one. Hence to play eve online you would only require less then 100kbs down, and 20kbs up. In elite, there is no main server. When the people connect together it sucks all the internet from the people.
Last i played it didnt even work right, people with crappy internet would become host, making every one disconnect. The way they have it running doesnt work at all, and never will. In order to host a game with 32 players, you would need atleast 100 mbits upload, and 100 mbits download, for it to run smoothly. Not many people have that kind of internet connection.
Now this isnt even getting into the fact that every one, is from a different location. So if the guy that got put as the host, is from lets say china, and every one else was from the USA, every one would have ping above 400, but the host which would have 0 ping. The other thing is since it is using that shitty system, the host is always going to have a advantage over every one else, because he is going to have 0 ping, while every one else will have more then that [...]
It seems you don't know what you are talking about as well. A 32 multiplayer needs 100 MBits bandwidth in both directions? That's over 3 MBits up-/ downstream of data for each single player involved. You could simultaniously send and recieve 30 1080p H.264 encoded videos with that amount of bandwidth!!! So, even if the devs of Elite Dangerous are incredibly incompetent, that 'll never happen.
And even you mention that normally the data send to and recieved from a centralised host (aka server) are in the range of 100 KBits per player. So, tell me: why should it increase by a factor of 30 if you make one player the decentralised host? That doesn't make any sense at all. If I send 31x100 KBits and recieve 31x100 Kbits (which is worst case scenario), it sums up to around 3 MBits bidirectional bandwith. So where are the other bidrectional 97 MBits coming from? You host the game for 900 other players as well, even if you don't play with them? Maybe there was a bug, but this game isn't ready yet, so ...
And why should the netcode match people all around the world, unless you choose to play with them by choice? It's more than likely that devs implement something to eliminate those scenarios. Maybe it's not in the gamecode at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard and far from impossible. So, it's likely that most of the time it won't happen at all either.
[...] I dono what world u live in, but a gave like eve will require way more then that. Even A old ass game like Ulitma Online need more then 10 kilo bytes up. So im going to raise it to a more realistic number like 100 kbytes down, and 40 kbtyes up. [...]
Look, it wasn't me who made up the 100 Kbits. You did. Read carefully your own post (that one I quoted, I even marked it for you now to help you remember). I only took your assumptions and numbers and calculated a bit with them to question their plausibility. I haven't made any other claim besides that your numbers are not plausible.
And like I said: I highly doubt you will ever need 100 MBit for a mutliplayer. That's 100 Million Bit per second. What should be transmitted with that amount of data that is essential for a working multiplayer? You can claim aynthing you want, but better come up with some facts if you want someone to believe you. And be sure it's not a bug or something else on your end that produces this scenario (like e.g. being part of a worldwide botnet or so, that would be at least plausible ).
That's the world I live in: claim something, deliver facts for it. But with your second post (wall of text with not much evidence as well) you at least come closer to something believable. So I give you the benefit of doubt. After all it's the internet and I can't seriously expect that someone tries to deliver evidence for his claims, even if they are far from anything that could be called plausible ...
Its real simple, the game is peer 2 peer. That means it uses some ones computer as the host, and at some point you will be the host playing this game online. I dont see how you can say a game cant use 100Mbits up and down to host a game. You think those 64 player BF4 servers, get hosted on what? A guys in house cable connection........
Any ways, i dont know why your having such a hard time understanding it. Yes i didnt take much time at all to explain it, or correct my text, I didnt think i needed to. Because its simple....
If you play this game online it will soak up your entire internet connection, trying to host the players around you. If you get stuck being the host, and you have crappy DSL like me, the game wont work. Yes they will make it more streamlined, and require less information, to do the same thing. Still though, any 3d game with shooting i have ever played. Even race car games, need a dedicated host for any kind of smooth game play.
To sum it up, yes if they ever clean up the bugs and code. Get everything all working ect. Your still not going to be able to host a room of 32 players, all doing there own thing in elite and dangerous, with anything less than a nice fiber line. You get some one with DSL, Cable, Wireless, 4g, dial up, or t1 the game is going to have disconnects and be laggy. In the USA those are the mass amounts of connections. Second the router is going to play a part in it, you will need to know how to configure your router, and open the right ports or the game doesnt even work.
As for me, I am still pissed off they didnt put this in huge letters on the main page when selling me the game. Telling me that it is a peer to peer game, with no dedicated server. As for why I am trying to get this point across I dont want some one else to make that mistake, and pay for a game that will never amount to anything in being a MMO. Which is the title of this tread, will Elite be a new Eve. No never, this game wont even be a MMO in any grand scale like eve, or even simple 2000 player server like ulitma online.
It will be a single player game, with a terrible designed online part of the game. That will only work for people with high end internet connection. So for all you hoping to play, just dont get pissed when the guy with a cable connection get stuck as host, and 100 people on his block log on, and soak up the internet lowering his speed down, and in effect lagging the whole server. and making a 32 player battle ruined, because the mental retard who made this game decided it was a good idea, to be cheap and steal its players internet to host the game. Instead of buying dedicated servers.
One last thing as to why this will never be close to eve, or any mmo is because pvp players like to have a lag free, even playing field. Which a p2p system can never provide.
You clearly are missing how Elite is ran. Normal mmos are ran on a server, which uploads and downloads to every one. Hence to play eve online you would only require less then 100kbs down, and 20kbs up. In elite, there is no main server. When the people connect together it sucks all the internet from the people.
Last i played it didnt even work right, people with crappy internet would become host, making every one disconnect. The way they have it running doesnt work at all, and never will. In order to host a game with 32 players, you would need atleast 100 mbits upload, and 100 mbits download, for it to run smoothly. Not many people have that kind of internet connection.
Now this isnt even getting into the fact that every one, is from a different location. So if the guy that got put as the host, is from lets say china, and every one else was from the USA, every one would have ping above 400, but the host which would have 0 ping. The other thing is since it is using that shitty system, the host is always going to have a advantage over every one else, because he is going to have 0 ping, while every one else will have more then that [...]
It seems you don't know what you are talking about as well. A 32 multiplayer needs 100 MBits bandwidth in both directions? That's over 3 MBits up-/ downstream of data for each single player involved. You could simultaniously send and recieve 30 1080p H.264 encoded videos with that amount of bandwidth!!! So, even if the devs of Elite Dangerous are incredibly incompetent, that 'll never happen.
And even you mention that normally the data send to and recieved from a centralised host (aka server) are in the range of 100 KBits per player. So, tell me: why should it increase by a factor of 30 if you make one player the decentralised host? That doesn't make any sense at all. If I send 31x100 KBits and recieve 31x100 Kbits (which is worst case scenario), it sums up to around 3 MBits bidirectional bandwith. So where are the other bidrectional 97 MBits coming from? You host the game for 900 other players as well, even if you don't play with them? Maybe there was a bug, but this game isn't ready yet, so ...
And why should the netcode match people all around the world, unless you choose to play with them by choice? It's more than likely that devs implement something to eliminate those scenarios. Maybe it's not in the gamecode at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard and far from impossible. So, it's likely that most of the time it won't happen at all either.
[...] I dono what world u live in, but a gave like eve will require way more then that. Even A old ass game like Ulitma Online need more then 10 kilo bytes up. So im going to raise it to a more realistic number like 100 kbytes down, and 40 kbtyes up. [...]
Look, it wasn't me who made up the 100 Kbits. You did. Read carefully your own post (that one I quoted, I even marked it for you now to help you remember). I only took your assumptions and numbers and calculated a bit with them to question their plausibility. I haven't made any other claim besides that your numbers are not plausible.
And like I said: I highly doubt you will ever need 100 MBit for a mutliplayer. That's 100 Million Bit per second. What should be transmitted with that amount of data that is essential for a working multiplayer? You can claim aynthing you want, but better come up with some facts if you want someone to believe you. And be sure it's not a bug or something else on your end that produces this scenario (like e.g. being part of a worldwide botnet or so, that would be at least plausible ).
That's the world I live in: claim something, deliver facts for it. But with your second post (wall of text with not much evidence as well) you at least come closer to something believable. So I give you the benefit of doubt. After all it's the internet and I can't seriously expect that someone tries to deliver evidence for his claims, even if they are far from anything that could be called plausible ...
Its real simple, the game is peer 2 peer. That means it uses some ones computer as the host, and at some point you will be the host playing this game online. I dont see how you can say a game cant use 100Mbits up and down to host a game. You think those 64 player BF4 servers, get hosted on what? A guys in house cable connection........
Any ways, i dont know why your having such a hard time understanding it. Yes i didnt take much time at all to explain it, or correct my text, I didnt think i needed to. Because its simple....
If you play this game online it will soak up your entire internet connection, trying to host the players around you. If you get stuck being the host, and you have crappy DSL like me, the game wont work. Yes they will make it more streamlined, and require less information, to do the same thing. Still though, any 3d game with shooting i have ever played. Even race car games, need a dedicated host for any kind of smooth game play.
To sum it up, yes if they ever clean up the bugs and code. Get everything all working ect. Your still not going to be able to host a room of 32 players, all doing there own thing in elite and dangerous, with anything less than a nice fiber line. You get some one with DSL, Cable, Wireless, 4g, dial up, or t1 the game is going to have disconnects and be laggy. In the USA those are the mass amounts of connections. Second the router is going to play a part in it, you will need to know how to configure your router, and open the right ports or the game doesnt even work. [...]
No, it's anything but simple. That's why I have such a hard time to believe your numbers. Peer 2 peer or not. Even if you are connected with 1000 other people in a swarm, you still need data to be transmitted between all of them to justify that amount of bandwidth. And why should I transmit data to or recieve them from a player (apart from something like a connection is alive ping) that isn't close to me? So if an area is limited to 32 players, there is no reason to exchange anything with the whole rest. I can't see them and interact with them. So why exchange data? For what? It's a multiplayer, not some sort of streaming service.
And peer to peer has no host at all (apart from the DHT hoster). That's how peer to peer works. You contradict yourself the whole time. First you argued with a decentralised host, now you mention a peer 2 peer network. And so on. Better get your facts together.
To sum it up: you play some sort of bullshit bingo, meshing up some buzzwords you heart somewhere without actually understanding them and spice the whole thing up with some random numbers. And then you wonder why it's so hard to believe you. But as it seems it's easier to blame someone else (me) for his "limited" understanding capabilities than to admit that you simply have no clue what you are talking about.
I get that you have a problem with this game. And feel free to do so. But don't come up with unplausible stories full of contradictions and wonder about the reaction.
For our friend who argues a peer to peer game. I use https://www.wtfast.com/ and never worry about my latency. If it is bad, I just change my route. Only time I have issues is if my ISP goes down to maintenance. Then it doesnt matter.
ED looks like a VERY VERY GOOD game! I am getting this over Star Citizen. For my , make money, pew pew.. SPACE FUN!
For our friend who argues a peer to peer game. I use https://www.wtfast.com/ and never worry about my latency. If it is bad, I just change my route. Only time I have issues is if my ISP goes down to maintenance. Then it doesnt matter.
ED looks like a VERY VERY GOOD game! I am getting this over Star Citizen. For my , make money, pew pew.. SPACE FUN!
It does look very very good. I was just informing the people who dont have a high speed internet connection, and im not including cable into that, because at times cable is worse then DSL when every one gets on, that you will have lag, disconnects, and your internet connection will be maxed while you play. So they dont pay 150 bucks, to find out they cant play, like i did.
As far as that wtfast thing goes, yeah it might find a faster way and lower your ping. But as i said if the person hosting internet gets messed up it wont matter. I for see alot of people when they start losing, just disabling their internet connection, so it stops the whole game for a couple of seconds, while the game code scrambles to find a new host.
Here is your test if you can play this game or not. Go download dayz epoch, and try and host a server on your home internet connection, and see what happens.
It is a step backwards at any rate, from a high end system dedicated with a nice ISP. To a make shift hosting system, that picks some one to host.
I just went on to the forums with my 150 dollar account, and they cant even get 8-10 players to work right lol. You expect them to get 1000+ players to work right? The way they have it set up, I will be seriously impressed if they even get their promised 32 players to work right. Last time i played eve online, which i wasent even that far into the game, there were 100s of players in the same area.
I dono how a peer 2 peer, barely able to support 10 players, is going to replace anything close to the scale of eve online, or any other MMO. I am not even sure why this game is listed as a MMO. Its more akin to like battle field.
Perhaps you don't realise but it's at 32 players per instance now. It was increased from 16 to 32 sometime last week. Dev said that depending things go they may look at increasing it further. It was only ever intended to be 32 players per instance.
Personally I've had very few network issues, most of which were back in PB and generally tied to exiting supercruise. As they improve weighting, geo matching etc things are only going to get better. The support forums have hardly topics related to networking compared to when PB was running, so something must be going right.
The biggest difference between Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous is that Eve Online is 100% focused on PvP - this can break immersion: in Eve, you never feel you are in a space ship in a different universe.
In contrast, the intention of Elite: Dangerous is to create an immersive and engrossing universe. For example, think of the bar in Star Wars - the aim with Elite: Dangerous is to create an experience.
These 2 different intentions make them very different experiences.
it's like comparing the original films of Star Wars (analogous to how Elite: Dangerous will be) to a huge pub fight (which is what Eve Online is, except that it involves a lot more preparation for the fight).
Originally posted by Bladestrom If it has the 100 billion systems as promised then gate camps are going to be isolated to trade hubs, so from that aspect the pvp will be different. Ganking is part and parcel of open pvp, griefing should never be - sO will depend on how well this is managed.
A large portion of ganking in EVE occurs around trade hubs, and asteroid belts, and of course choke points like gate camps to lowsec and 0.0. if Elite has similar areas of congregation and consolidation then you can count on players trying to kill you there if it's permitted, regardless how big the universe is. (and don't believe the hype, 100B is an inconceivable figure, someone good in math could probably come back and tell you if all you did was fly 24x7 for a year you could not explore more than 40/50K of them. )
Originally posted by rodingo I'm not sure if both games cater to the same type of individuals. Plus I don't think there will be warp gates to camp so those types of players (if they do crossover which I'm sure some will) will have to think of other ways to catch noobs or for just being general PITAs. At least in this game your actual flying skill should out way those who are used to clicking their mouse to move their heavier mass frigate class ships and higher versus what looks like to be more like heavy fighters in Elite. I guess in the end though we will see how much gear trumps skill, if at all, in this game.
There will be some cross over of course, but each game should carve out it's own niche style of game play, so i don't think there will be a lot of similarities between the two.
With EVE's real time training it will be very easy for me to keep my subs rolling in EVE and duck out to play Elite on the side to see if I like it, expect a lot of hardcore EVE players to do the same.
But count on this, if Elite proves to be good, it will draw the ganking element such as Goons(and others) to it and they will find a way to be an annoyance, it's just what they are best at.
I'm happy to say that I think you're mostly wrong!
The big difference between Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous is this:
Eve Online is ALL about PvP (ganking). Even when you are doing PvE in Eve, it's either to gather materials to gank others - or to make you a big fat target so that you'll be ganked sooner or later.
In Elite: Dangerous, the reward system encourages people to collaborate. You can PvP in Elite: Dangerous, but griefers are corralled, through very clever and subtle means, towards consensual PvP rather than opportunistic ganking. (griefers will find themselves in the company of other griefers, rather than in the company of non-PvPers.) It's so clever and seamless that it won't be obvious, so immersion won't be broken for anyone.
I hope so Mors.. I enjoyed original Elite for PvE.. I'm not a PvP type person, even tho I have taken part in it on a consensual basis, but I do NOT want to log on the game solo and be the target of gankers.. I didn't tolerate it in Eve, and I won't tolerate it in Elite either.. I really do hope they keep the focus on PvE and community..
Perhaps you don't realise but it's at 32 players per instance now. It was increased from 16 to 32 sometime last week. Dev said that depending things go they may look at increasing it further. It was only ever intended to be 32 players per instance.
Personally I've had very few network issues, most of which were back in PB and generally tied to exiting supercruise. As they improve weighting, geo matching etc things are only going to get better. The support forums have hardly topics related to networking compared to when PB was running, so something must be going right.
Edit: Misread part about 1000 players.
Yep that is what i was talking about. I am glad they fixed it, and got it so it is playable. I still dont agree with a modern game using peer 2 peer, just to save them money, each to their own though.
Originally posted by Rydeson I hope so Mors.. I enjoyed original Elite for PvE.. I'm not a PvP type person, even tho I have taken part in it on a consensual basis, but I do NOT want to log on the game solo and be the target of gankers.. I didn't tolerate it in Eve, and I won't tolerate it in Elite either.. I really do hope they keep the focus on PvE and community..
I dont think you have to worry about that. Its in beta nothing of the core game is going to change, and they would have to re write the whole game to make it a pvp game.
PvE only games for me are so meaningless and boring, I need some PvP anarchy on top to spice it up as well as give PvE a meaning to an end (end being PvP).
PvE only games for me are so meaningless and boring, I need some PvP anarchy on top to spice it up as well as give PvE a meaning to an end (end being PvP).
I hate driving games. I'll buy one and complain on forum.
The big difference between Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous is this:
Eve Online is ALL about PvP (ganking). Even when you are doing PvE in Eve, it's either to gather materials to gank others - or to make you a big fat target so that you'll be ganked sooner or later.
In Elite: Dangerous, the reward system encourages people to collaborate. You can PvP in Elite: Dangerous, but griefers are corralled, through very clever and subtle means, towards consensual PvP rather than opportunistic ganking. (griefers will find themselves in the company of other griefers, rather than in the company of non-PvPers.) It's so clever and seamless that it won't be obvious, so immersion won't be broken for anyone.
That sounds excellent.
Another reason why it won't be like EvE, is that EvE gameplay asks for no twitch skills requiring full commitment to a single view of the action: you merely have to press a few buttons every now and then, and can do so on numerous accounts managing your dps alt, your logistics alt, your tackle alt, while your offgrid booster alt provides bonuses needing no input and your scout alts give you passive intel just through their local chat tab.
A ganker in ED will have trouble managing more than a single ship, so Cheeselords relying on alts - the real source of EvE financial stability btw, you can't do shit alone unless you have a couple, and you're not getting anywhere in any serious corp or alliance without them- to get the upper hand won't be able to ply their trade.
I think EvE has enough features different from Elite that it'll remain relevant after Elite releases. But personally I want to control my ship sitting in the cockpit with a HOTAS, so for me it's got to be Elite. If the game is as good as it's looking to be, at least.
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It seems you don't know what you are talking about as well. A 32 multiplayer needs 100 MBits bandwidth in both directions? That's over 3 MBits up-/ downstream of data for each single player involved. You could simultaniously send and recieve 30 1080p H.264 encoded videos with that amount of bandwidth!!! So, even if the devs of Elite Dangerous are incredibly incompetent, that 'll never happen.
And even you mention that normally the data send to and recieved from a centralised host (aka server) are in the range of 100 KBits per player. So, tell me: why should it increase by a factor of 30 if you make one player the decentralised host? That doesn't make any sense at all. If I send 31x100 KBits and recieve 31x100 Kbits (which is worst case scenario), it sums up to around 3 MBits bidirectional bandwith. So where are the other bidrectional 97 MBits coming from? You host the game for 900 other players as well, even if you don't play with them? Maybe there was a bug, but this game isn't ready yet, so ...
And why should the netcode match people all around the world, unless you choose to play with them by choice? It's more than likely that devs implement something to eliminate those scenarios. Maybe it's not in the gamecode at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard and far from impossible. So, it's likely that most of the time it won't happen at all either.
The FULLY OPEN portion of the game, which is at all time optional, could concievably be compared to EVE's gate campers to some extent. At least it is somewhat possible to "camp" stations or star systems. However, the game also comes with single player and "friends only" modes of play. So, you never need to worry about those campers (unless they are your friends in friend only mode)...just don't ever play in the Opne mode. And it does not matter which mode you play, your progress (or failures) are saved for ALL modes. In other words, if you progress and purchase a new ship in Single player, you will have that same ship in Open or friends only mode. I like this as it lets me decide how I want to play and not the gankers/griefers.
Let's party like it is 1863!
The last time i played it required alot more then 100kbits a second per person. My internet was always maxed, which was 3000kbits down, and 400kbits up. When i hosted Dayz, it required 1000mbits up and down to host over 64 players and keep things smooth. 100mbit up and down, would be seriously pushing a game with 32 players. But even at your generous figure of them fixing it, which i doubt, and people only require 10 kbtyes up, which isnt going to happen lol. I dono what world u live in, but a gave like eve will require way more then that. Even A old ass game like Ulitma Online need more then 10 kilo bytes up. So im going to raise it to a more realistic number like 100 kbytes down, and 40 kbtyes up.
Even with that number that means the host would have to have 3mbs up and down. Now maybe in other countrys the internet is smoking, but in the usa. That 3mbs up and down, is a tiny portion of what people have for internet. Not to mention the average house hold shares their internet with their family. So now your ethier going to have to get a dedicated internet connection to just play elite, or when u start playing your familys going be like o god, hes playing that stupid game again, now no one can use the internet. That is a low number, in reality each player is going to be using more like 250kbtyes down, and 100kbtyes up.
As for p2p being a long accept for a mmo, i dono what world u live in..... The only games that use p2p are games like diablo 2, and some RTS games. Other then that NO. And all those games are lobby based games, with small amounts of players. Not a huge persistent world, where 1000s of people connect to each other. I am sorry but the people who are making this game, have no idea what they are doing. They should of stuck to single player, their online part of the game is a joke, and is never going to work right for the mass majority of people.
Do a poll on here, on how many of even the people on here want their ISP maxed out to it limits for 12 hours while they play. I some times leave my game on. The easier way to see, is just look at a p2p download, the leechers way out number the seeders, because not many people want thier internet constantly maxed out.
If all of a sudden all the mmos, started maxing out their customers bandwith they would start losing them by the 1000s. If you logged on to one world of warcraft account, and it sucked your isp dry, no where near the amount of people would be playing it.
So here is my perdiction, you are going to have billons of star systems, and like 100 people playing who live alone, or can afford a dedicated internet connection just to play elite. Its gonna be the people who spent 1000 dollars on one of those joysticks to play. The rest, are just going to play off line.
That is def not how it is going to work, go read all the forums. If you play single player u cant just transfer to the mulitplayer server. The only thing you can do as single player, is have the database, which they run, which stores all the effects from the mulitplayer. You cant just switch back and forth like that lol.
For damn good reason 2, if you could just switch back and forth like that can u imagine the cheating that would occur lol. Havent you ever seen diablo 2 offline trainers. It would be that, people would make a trainer, you would pack your single player character with so many credits the best armor and weapons, and then load onto the mulitplayer server.
Look, it wasn't me who made up the 100 Kbits. You did. Read carefully your own post (that one I quoted, I even marked it for you now to help you remember). I only took your assumptions and numbers and calculated a bit with them to question their plausibility. I haven't made any other claim besides that your numbers are not plausible.
And like I said: I highly doubt you will ever need 100 MBit for a mutliplayer. That's 100 Million Bit per second. What should be transmitted with that amount of data that is essential for a working multiplayer? You can claim aynthing you want, but better come up with some facts if you want someone to believe you. And be sure it's not a bug or something else on your end that produces this scenario (like e.g. being part of a worldwide botnet or so, that would be at least plausible
).
That's the world I live in: claim something, deliver facts for it. But with your second post (wall of text with not much evidence as well) you at least come closer to something believable. So I give you the benefit of doubt. After all it's the internet and I can't seriously expect that someone tries to deliver evidence for his claims, even if they are far from anything that could be called plausible ...
Its real simple, the game is peer 2 peer. That means it uses some ones computer as the host, and at some point you will be the host playing this game online. I dont see how you can say a game cant use 100Mbits up and down to host a game. You think those 64 player BF4 servers, get hosted on what? A guys in house cable connection........
Any ways, i dont know why your having such a hard time understanding it. Yes i didnt take much time at all to explain it, or correct my text, I didnt think i needed to. Because its simple....
If you play this game online it will soak up your entire internet connection, trying to host the players around you. If you get stuck being the host, and you have crappy DSL like me, the game wont work. Yes they will make it more streamlined, and require less information, to do the same thing. Still though, any 3d game with shooting i have ever played. Even race car games, need a dedicated host for any kind of smooth game play.
To sum it up, yes if they ever clean up the bugs and code. Get everything all working ect. Your still not going to be able to host a room of 32 players, all doing there own thing in elite and dangerous, with anything less than a nice fiber line. You get some one with DSL, Cable, Wireless, 4g, dial up, or t1 the game is going to have disconnects and be laggy. In the USA those are the mass amounts of connections. Second the router is going to play a part in it, you will need to know how to configure your router, and open the right ports or the game doesnt even work.
As for me, I am still pissed off they didnt put this in huge letters on the main page when selling me the game. Telling me that it is a peer to peer game, with no dedicated server. As for why I am trying to get this point across I dont want some one else to make that mistake, and pay for a game that will never amount to anything in being a MMO. Which is the title of this tread, will Elite be a new Eve. No never, this game wont even be a MMO in any grand scale like eve, or even simple 2000 player server like ulitma online.
It will be a single player game, with a terrible designed online part of the game. That will only work for people with high end internet connection. So for all you hoping to play, just dont get pissed when the guy with a cable connection get stuck as host, and 100 people on his block log on, and soak up the internet lowering his speed down, and in effect lagging the whole server. and making a 32 player battle ruined, because the mental retard who made this game decided it was a good idea, to be cheap and steal its players internet to host the game. Instead of buying dedicated servers.
One last thing as to why this will never be close to eve, or any mmo is because pvp players like to have a lag free, even playing field. Which a p2p system can never provide.
No, it's anything but simple. That's why I have such a hard time to believe your numbers. Peer 2 peer or not. Even if you are connected with 1000 other people in a swarm, you still need data to be transmitted between all of them to justify that amount of bandwidth. And why should I transmit data to or recieve them from a player (apart from something like a connection is alive ping) that isn't close to me? So if an area is limited to 32 players, there is no reason to exchange anything with the whole rest. I can't see them and interact with them. So why exchange data? For what? It's a multiplayer, not some sort of streaming service.
And peer to peer has no host at all (apart from the DHT hoster). That's how peer to peer works. You contradict yourself the whole time. First you argued with a decentralised host, now you mention a peer 2 peer network. And so on. Better get your facts together.
To sum it up: you play some sort of bullshit bingo, meshing up some buzzwords you heart somewhere without actually understanding them and spice the whole thing up with some random numbers. And then you wonder why it's so hard to believe you. But as it seems it's easier to blame someone else (me) for his "limited" understanding capabilities than to admit that you simply have no clue what you are talking about.
I get that you have a problem with this game. And feel free to do so. But don't come up with unplausible stories full of contradictions and wonder about the reaction.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
For our friend who argues a peer to peer game. I use https://www.wtfast.com/ and never worry about my latency. If it is bad, I just change my route. Only time I have issues is if my ISP goes down to maintenance. Then it doesnt matter.
ED looks like a VERY VERY GOOD game! I am getting this over Star Citizen. For my , make money, pew pew.. SPACE FUN!
It does look very very good. I was just informing the people who dont have a high speed internet connection, and im not including cable into that, because at times cable is worse then DSL when every one gets on, that you will have lag, disconnects, and your internet connection will be maxed while you play. So they dont pay 150 bucks, to find out they cant play, like i did.
As far as that wtfast thing goes, yeah it might find a faster way and lower your ping. But as i said if the person hosting internet gets messed up it wont matter. I for see alot of people when they start losing, just disabling their internet connection, so it stops the whole game for a couple of seconds, while the game code scrambles to find a new host.
Here is your test if you can play this game or not. Go download dayz epoch, and try and host a server on your home internet connection, and see what happens.
It is a step backwards at any rate, from a high end system dedicated with a nice ISP. To a make shift hosting system, that picks some one to host.
I just went on to the forums with my 150 dollar account, and they cant even get 8-10 players to work right lol. You expect them to get 1000+ players to work right? The way they have it set up, I will be seriously impressed if they even get their promised 32 players to work right. Last time i played eve online, which i wasent even that far into the game, there were 100s of players in the same area.
I dono how a peer 2 peer, barely able to support 10 players, is going to replace anything close to the scale of eve online, or any other MMO. I am not even sure why this game is listed as a MMO. Its more akin to like battle field.
Perhaps you don't realise but it's at 32 players per instance now. It was increased from 16 to 32 sometime last week. Dev said that depending things go they may look at increasing it further. It was only ever intended to be 32 players per instance.
Personally I've had very few network issues, most of which were back in PB and generally tied to exiting supercruise. As they improve weighting, geo matching etc things are only going to get better. The support forums have hardly topics related to networking compared to when PB was running, so something must be going right.
Edit: Misread part about 1000 players.
The biggest difference between Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous is that Eve Online is 100% focused on PvP - this can break immersion: in Eve, you never feel you are in a space ship in a different universe.
In contrast, the intention of Elite: Dangerous is to create an immersive and engrossing universe. For example, think of the bar in Star Wars - the aim with Elite: Dangerous is to create an experience.
These 2 different intentions make them very different experiences.
it's like comparing the original films of Star Wars (analogous to how Elite: Dangerous will be) to a huge pub fight (which is what Eve Online is, except that it involves a lot more preparation for the fight).
I'm happy to say that I think you're mostly wrong!
The big difference between Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous is this:
Eve Online is ALL about PvP (ganking). Even when you are doing PvE in Eve, it's either to gather materials to gank others - or to make you a big fat target so that you'll be ganked sooner or later.
In Elite: Dangerous, the reward system encourages people to collaborate. You can PvP in Elite: Dangerous, but griefers are corralled, through very clever and subtle means, towards consensual PvP rather than opportunistic ganking. (griefers will find themselves in the company of other griefers, rather than in the company of non-PvPers.) It's so clever and seamless that it won't be obvious, so immersion won't be broken for anyone.
Yep that is what i was talking about. I am glad they fixed it, and got it so it is playable. I still dont agree with a modern game using peer 2 peer, just to save them money, each to their own though.
I dont think you have to worry about that. Its in beta nothing of the core game is going to change, and they would have to re write the whole game to make it a pvp game.
I hate driving games. I'll buy one and complain on forum.That sounds excellent.
Another reason why it won't be like EvE, is that EvE gameplay asks for no twitch skills requiring full commitment to a single view of the action: you merely have to press a few buttons every now and then, and can do so on numerous accounts managing your dps alt, your logistics alt, your tackle alt, while your offgrid booster alt provides bonuses needing no input and your scout alts give you passive intel just through their local chat tab.
A ganker in ED will have trouble managing more than a single ship, so Cheeselords relying on alts - the real source of EvE financial stability btw, you can't do shit alone unless you have a couple, and you're not getting anywhere in any serious corp or alliance without them- to get the upper hand won't be able to ply their trade.
Elite: Not So Dangerous? or basically "Elite: Hello Kitty" Online
When CCP made Eve Online, they were trying to make Elite: Dangerous but they couldn't because processor speeds were too limited at the time.
CCP couldn't evolve Eve Online fast enough to keep up with technology. That's why the Walking in Stations plan was scrapped.
Eve Online will become obsolescent once Elite: Dangerous is formally launched.
I think EvE has enough features different from Elite that it'll remain relevant after Elite releases. But personally I want to control my ship sitting in the cockpit with a HOTAS, so for me it's got to be Elite. If the game is as good as it's looking to be, at least.