How is calling players who expect to receive something for nothing freeloading considered name calling. That is exactly the description of a f2p player who does not want to contribute any money towards a game. It is not name calling when it describes a behaviour accurately it is the truth.
The issue isn't about free players vs. Patrons. The issue is about Patrons only vs. Patrons plus Cash Shop. That Meme a few posts back depicting the Free player getting owned by a paying player is standard, but that's not what the big issue with AA is. Change the labels in that Meme to: "Free Player" to "Patron" and "Paying Player" To "Patron + Cash Shop"
AA aims to be the 1st blatantly pay to win game that is sub based.
Aiya, if people want to keep insisting that the current labor system is balanced and fair for all. Give this game half a year and see how it goes.... and everything will be revealed. We will see who is correct.
Is it a so called good and fair system then it will continue for months upon its release and get good revenue? or will they change the system to make it more balance or fair for patron and/or non patron even.
Look at SWTOR... which was such a bad F2P model conversion that after a year or so then they decided to implement some changes. If > 5/10 people are commenting on a problem, then it is a real problem that you should start looking into it.
So, if i understood you well, i can become a founder, recieve some nice stuff for paying "some" cash to them ahead of release.
And with this i recieve patron status for 30-90 days depending on my investment, then later i can continue to be a patron after release for around the same money (in theory) as a subscription based game would cost.
If that's true, it isn't as terrible as some players see it. Basically, i can buy the game if i wish to, for some extra stuff.
As i've said Aion has a similiar model, where you can play for free if you wish (though very limited) or you can subscribe for lower instance cd's bonus items etc.
Then this game is P2P with limited F2P (though this limitation doesn't sound as terrible as in aion) access, rather than F2P with P2W option.
---------------------------------
At a side note, this haven't really answered all of my questions.
What does everyone think, will completely free user be able to compete with patrons on a long term?
If not, the solution would be simple, like making cash shop items tradeable within the game.
So, if i understood you well, i can become a founder, recieve some nice stuff for paying "some" cash to them ahead of release.
And with this i recieve patron status for 30-90 days depending on my investment, then later i can continue to be a patron after release for around the same money (in theory) as a subscription based game would cost.
If that's true, it isn't as terrible as some players see it. Basically, i can buy the game if i wish to, for some extra stuff.
As i've said Aion has a similiar model, where you can play for free if you wish (though very limited) or you can subscribe for lower instance cd's bonus items etc.
Then this game is P2P with limited F2P (though this limitation doesn't sound as terrible as in aion) access, rather than F2P with P2W option.
---------------------------------
At a side note, this haven't really answered all of my questions.
What does everyone think, will completely free user be able to compete with patrons on a long term?
If not, the solution would be simple, like making cash shop items tradeable within the game.
Thats exactly right as I understand it.
You can buy one of the Founder packs which include some in game goodies (armor / cape etc) and that purchase also includes 30 days of subscription (Patron).
At the end of the 30 days you can continue to pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can simply download the game for free and not receive the ingame goodies and pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can download and play the game for free with no $15 a month.....but you will have restrictions on labour points etc compared to someone who pays the $15 a month for subscription/Patron status.
Then there is the cash shop where anyone can purchase LP top up potions for real money. OR you can purchase the same LP top up potions using in game gold on the in game auction house if you do not want to spend real money in the cash shop.
AA is a subscription game with a Freemium/Hybrid/F2P option......just like SWTOR.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about tbh....
So, if i understood you well, i can become a founder, recieve some nice stuff for paying "some" cash to them ahead of release.
And with this i recieve patron status for 30-90 days depending on my investment, then later i can continue to be a patron after release for around the same money (in theory) as a subscription based game would cost.
If that's true, it isn't as terrible as some players see it. Basically, i can buy the game if i wish to, for some extra stuff.
As i've said Aion has a similiar model, where you can play for free if you wish (though very limited) or you can subscribe for lower instance cd's bonus items etc.
Then this game is P2P with limited F2P (though this limitation doesn't sound as terrible as in aion) access, rather than F2P with P2W option.
---------------------------------
At a side note, this haven't really answered all of my questions.
What does everyone think, will completely free user be able to compete with patrons on a long term?
If not, the solution would be simple, like making cash shop items tradeable within the game.
Thats exactly right as I understand it.
You can buy one of the Founder packs which include some in game goodies (armor / cape etc) and that purchase also includes 30 days of subscription (Patron).
At the end of the 30 days you can continue to pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can simply download the game for free and not receive the ingame goodies and pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can download and play the game for free with no $15 a month.....but you will have restrictions on labour points etc compared to someone who pays the $15 a month for subscription/Patron status.
Then there is the cash shop where anyone can purchase LP top up potions for real money. OR you can purchase the same LP top up potions using in game gold on the in game auction house if you do not want to spend real money in the cash shop.
AA is a subscription game with a Freemium/Hybrid/F2P option......just like SWTOR.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about tbh....
In the long term a f2p could compete with patrons. The gear is that, at some point you'll get to it; but still it's recommended to at least get APEX and become patron.
Adding to the post above, patrons (don't know if f2p too) get 5 loyalty coins every day they log in the game. You can spend these coins in the loyalty shop which has many things that are sold for credits in the cash shop; like labor potions, taxes certificates etc..
So, if i understood you well, i can become a founder, recieve some nice stuff for paying "some" cash to them ahead of release.
And with this i recieve patron status for 30-90 days depending on my investment, then later i can continue to be a patron after release for around the same money (in theory) as a subscription based game would cost.
If that's true, it isn't as terrible as some players see it. Basically, i can buy the game if i wish to, for some extra stuff.
As i've said Aion has a similiar model, where you can play for free if you wish (though very limited) or you can subscribe for lower instance cd's bonus items etc.
Then this game is P2P with limited F2P (though this limitation doesn't sound as terrible as in aion) access, rather than F2P with P2W option.
---------------------------------
At a side note, this haven't really answered all of my questions.
What does everyone think, will completely free user be able to compete with patrons on a long term?
If not, the solution would be simple, like making cash shop items tradeable within the game.
Thats exactly right as I understand it.
You can buy one of the Founder packs which include some in game goodies (armor / cape etc) and that purchase also includes 30 days of subscription (Patron).
At the end of the 30 days you can continue to pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can simply download the game for free and not receive the ingame goodies and pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can download and play the game for free with no $15 a month.....but you will have restrictions on labour points etc compared to someone who pays the $15 a month for subscription/Patron status.
Then there is the cash shop where anyone can purchase LP top up potions for real money. OR you can purchase the same LP top up potions using in game gold on the in game auction house if you do not want to spend real money in the cash shop.
AA is a subscription game with a Freemium/Hybrid/F2P option......just like SWTOR.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about tbh....
The fuss is this.
There is a small but vocal group of people who post that want every game to be free and have access to everything so they can spend all their waking hours playing it till they get bored in 2-3 months, and then spend the next couple of months complaining to everyone who will listen before they move onto the next game.
I really don't see any problem with this then. If a F2P user can basically achieve anything a patron could, but in a longer time, that is fine. Complaining about this, is like complaining about players who preorders a game, in order to be able to start ahead of others. As i've did some research as well, it seems you can purchase the patron status for ingame currency as well i don't believe this system is really bad for even F2P players. Sure they will have to work harder to achieve the same, but they can be there eventually.
I really don't see any problem with this then. If a F2P user can basically achieve anything a patron could, but in a longer time, that is fine. Complaining about this, is like complaining about players who preorders a game, in order to be able to start ahead of others. As i've did some research as well, it seems you can purchase the patron status for ingame currency as well i don't believe this system is really bad for even F2P players. Sure they will have to work harder to achieve the same, but they can be there eventually.
Thanks for the answers.
The real debate is the fact that players can't fast forward their way to anything... even those paying a subscription will have to spend time getting there. It's the crux of the complaint, not the fact that there is a difference in earning potential. Sure, you're hearing the F2P crowd complain the loudest, but even the Patrons don't like the throttle on them as well. In essence, they like being top dog inside of 2 weeks and don't like any system that prevents them from doing that.
There is a small but vocal group of people who post that want every game to be free and have access to everything so they can spend all their waking hours playing it till they get bored in 2-3 months, and then spend the next couple of months complaining to everyone who will listen before they move onto the next game.
it isnt lol, if no one has gotten the point trying to be made after so long and still repeat "f2p just want everything". Then there is no hope of getting it across. I'm saying this as an observer, i don't have any qualms with the game.
I have been playing in the Alpha for a few weeks now, and so far this is my take on the labor point system.
It makes you actually play a game.....
Yep I said it, you have to actually play, can't just sit it a mining area and bot for a week on end. It makes you play every aspect of the game to progress with speed.
So you have to use the labor points for the crafting side of the game, this takes labor points away. Guess what, doing quest and fighting mobs builds labor points, also does logging off the game and sleeping for a while.
So you wake up and you do your daily worth of crafting, mining, gathering, whatever it is you need to do in that area till you run out of points, does that mean you have to log off for the day? nope.
Then you get your butt to killing some stuff and exploring the game, building up those labor points with every cave explored. Once you max them back out you can go back to doing whatever it is that lets you spend them.
The game isn't really built for min max run to end game in 1 week players. Everything in the game takes time, understanding and devotion to achieve. It doesn't matter if you are a subbed patron or a F2P player, everyone in this game works hard for every scrap of what they achieve.
Some will like it, others will hate it, but it is what it is.
I have been playing in the Alpha for a few weeks now, and so far this is my take on the labor point system.
It makes you actually play a game.....
Yep I said it, you have to actually play, can't just sit it a mining area and bot for a week on end. It makes you play every aspect of the game to progress with speed.
So you have to use the labor points for the crafting side of the game, this takes labor points away. Guess what, doing quest and fighting mobs builds labor points, also does logging off the game and sleeping for a while.
So you wake up and you do your daily worth of crafting, mining, gathering, whatever it is you need to do in that area till you run out of points, does that mean you have to log off for the day? nope.
Then you get your butt to killing some stuff and exploring the game, building up those labor points with every cave explored. Once you max them back out you can go back to doing whatever it is that lets you spend them.
The game isn't really built for min max run to end game in 1 week players. Everything in the game takes time, understanding and devotion to achieve. It doesn't matter if you are a subbed patron or a F2P player, everyone in this game works hard for every scrap of what they achieve.
Some will like it, others will hate it, but it is what it is.
The labor system is ok, but they need to tweak it so patrons get more regen.....As a patron if I log out for 24 hours I get 1,400 Labor....I can use that Labor crafting in less then 30 mins easy.
BTW im a pvper, not a crafter so if crafting was something I loved and I only got 30 mins worth of it Ide be pretty pissed
I have been playing in the Alpha for a few weeks now, and so far this is my take on the labor point system.
It makes you actually play a game.....
Yep I said it, you have to actually play, can't just sit it a mining area and bot for a week on end. It makes you play every aspect of the game to progress with speed.
So you have to use the labor points for the crafting side of the game, this takes labor points away. Guess what, doing quest and fighting mobs builds labor points, also does logging off the game and sleeping for a while.
So you wake up and you do your daily worth of crafting, mining, gathering, whatever it is you need to do in that area till you run out of points, does that mean you have to log off for the day? nope.
Then you get your butt to killing some stuff and exploring the game, building up those labor points with every cave explored. Once you max them back out you can go back to doing whatever it is that lets you spend them.
The game isn't really built for min max run to end game in 1 week players. Everything in the game takes time, understanding and devotion to achieve. It doesn't matter if you are a subbed patron or a F2P player, everyone in this game works hard for every scrap of what they achieve.
Some will like it, others will hate it, but it is what it is.
The labor system is ok, but they need to tweak it so patrons get more regen.....As a patron if I log out for 24 hours I get 1,400 Labor....I can use that Labor crafting in less then 30 mins easy.
BTW im a pvper, not a crafter so if crafting was something I loved and I only got 30 mins worth of it Ide be pretty pissed
I spent about 2 hours mining in Halo Rise last night, then spent another 1 maybe 2 turning all that rock and mineral into processed ingots and stone blocks, and still had over 50% of my max labor points left over. Mining for hours on end and processing it all got boring so I went and quested a while maybe another 2 hours, and when I stopped I was back up to 75% labor points and I am sure when I log back in today when I get off work they will be 100% again.
I think people are reading way to much into the labor system, it has many purposes, but some of the best ones I will list.
1. Deters Botting, you can't bot all day every day because you will run out of labor points to run the bot.
2. Deterring bots = lower prices on economic goods.
3. Promotes exploration and others ways of gameplay, basically if makes those players who think MMO's are ment to be played in the same zone for 6 months gathering tree bark, branch out and see the world a little.
4. Immersion (i guess though I hate immersion) - Could a miner swing a pick axe for 72 hours straight without a break... nope, would a farmer tend a field for days on end without stopping... nope, would any type of crafting in any way continue past what we as people see as a normal work day... not really, I don't know any tailors in real life making hats for 48 hours straight... you know just a normal 8 hour work day. This is what the Labor system simulates to me, it is basically simulating real life labor into an MMO.
None of these points are bad things, ArcheAge has a lot of problems, I will be the first to admit that, but in the many years I have been playing MMO's, ArcheAge is the first MMO on the path to actually getting it right for once.
So, you don't get off-line labor points. Big deal. The "free" part is not free if you want a full game. The only way you get full services for anything is by paying for them. F2p is anything BUT free.....in any game.
So, you don't get off-line labor points. Big deal. The "free" part is not free if you want a full game. The only way you get full services for anything is by paying for them. F2p is anything BUT free.....in any game.
I also find this to be true, and in almost every case, F2P games cost more to be competitive in the long run than a subscription based game.
Are you are telling me that because certain players have always done this in other games, and that when a new game comes out and rewards this type of player while at the same time,limiting those who'd choose to use the games systems instead, that I've got a bubble that needs to be burst for calling it out?
This is some seriously wrong business, and I'm wrong for saying so because it's been happening since online games hit the scene?
Is that what you are saying?
no I'm saying the imaginary fantasy world where the casual player competes with the hardcore gamer doesn't exist anywhere but in forum arguments. trying to make it out like LP is what's holding you back is nonsense.
Absolutely 100% true !
There are 2 kinds of people that "dominate" MMO's: those that can play 8-12 hours a day and those that spend several $100 per month on Cash Shop and/or goldseller purchases. Both of those categories aren't large percentages of the player base, but they are extremely significant, because they are usually the "winners". They have the best gear, the most gold and (in the case of the 8-12 hour players) the most knowledge of game systems.
You can insult and belittle and hate those 2 categories of players, but you cannot beat them !
Are you are telling me that because certain players have always done this in other games, and that when a new game comes out and rewards this type of player while at the same time,limiting those who'd choose to use the games systems instead, that I've got a bubble that needs to be burst for calling it out?
This is some seriously wrong business, and I'm wrong for saying so because it's been happening since online games hit the scene?
Is that what you are saying?
no I'm saying the imaginary fantasy world where the casual player competes with the hardcore gamer doesn't exist anywhere but in forum arguments. trying to make it out like LP is what's holding you back is nonsense.
Absolutely 100% true !
There are 2 kinds of people that "dominate" MMO's: those that can play 8-12 hours a day and those that spend several $100 per month on Cash Shop and/or goldseller purchases. Both of those categories aren't large percentages of the player base, but they are extremely significant, because they are usually the "winners". They have the best gear, the most gold and (in the case of the 8-12 hour players) the most knowledge of game systems.
You can insult and belittle and hate those 2 categories of players, but you cannot beat them !
Not sure how anyone is a winner in a themepark pve mmo ?......just not sure you can't have a winner in AA and although you may not be able to beat the above categories of players the use of LP sure tightens the field down a bit
Same here OP, I was really excited about the game but then playing the CBTs I realized that LP basically stopped you from doing everything fun in the game, especially if you are f2p.
Looking into it more, I concluded that AA is basically a sub-based game that also has a p2w cash shop. It is not of better quality than other sub based games I like so its hard to justify paying a sub to play it (not even better than some f2p games or b2p games), and playing as f2p defeats the whole reason of even playing the game since you are essentially limited to moving and fighting, things done far better in numerous other games.
Comments
The issue isn't about free players vs. Patrons. The issue is about Patrons only vs. Patrons plus Cash Shop. That Meme a few posts back depicting the Free player getting owned by a paying player is standard, but that's not what the big issue with AA is. Change the labels in that Meme to: "Free Player" to "Patron" and "Paying Player" To "Patron + Cash Shop"
AA aims to be the 1st blatantly pay to win game that is sub based.
Rift is more P2W than AA is, it has a patron Plus Cash Shop too.
You can buy end game armor and weapons out of it.
The items in AA are not really p2w it is pay for speed or convenience.
As a patron most players will have more labor than they need a few weeks in and be looking for ways to burn it.
It will be easy to get someone to spend some of their labor for a few gold to help a F2P player out if they need it.
Aiya, if people want to keep insisting that the current labor system is balanced and fair for all. Give this game half a year and see how it goes.... and everything will be revealed. We will see who is correct.
Is it a so called good and fair system then it will continue for months upon its release and get good revenue? or will they change the system to make it more balance or fair for patron and/or non patron even.
Look at SWTOR... which was such a bad F2P model conversion that after a year or so then they decided to implement some changes. If > 5/10 people are commenting on a problem, then it is a real problem that you should start looking into it.
So, if i understood you well, i can become a founder, recieve some nice stuff for paying "some" cash to them ahead of release.
And with this i recieve patron status for 30-90 days depending on my investment, then later i can continue to be a patron after release for around the same money (in theory) as a subscription based game would cost.
If that's true, it isn't as terrible as some players see it. Basically, i can buy the game if i wish to, for some extra stuff.
As i've said Aion has a similiar model, where you can play for free if you wish (though very limited) or you can subscribe for lower instance cd's bonus items etc.
Then this game is P2P with limited F2P (though this limitation doesn't sound as terrible as in aion) access, rather than F2P with P2W option.
---------------------------------
At a side note, this haven't really answered all of my questions.
What does everyone think, will completely free user be able to compete with patrons on a long term?
If not, the solution would be simple, like making cash shop items tradeable within the game.
Thats exactly right as I understand it.
You can buy one of the Founder packs which include some in game goodies (armor / cape etc) and that purchase also includes 30 days of subscription (Patron).
At the end of the 30 days you can continue to pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can simply download the game for free and not receive the ingame goodies and pay $15 a month for your subscription/Patron status.
Or you can download and play the game for free with no $15 a month.....but you will have restrictions on labour points etc compared to someone who pays the $15 a month for subscription/Patron status.
Then there is the cash shop where anyone can purchase LP top up potions for real money. OR you can purchase the same LP top up potions using in game gold on the in game auction house if you do not want to spend real money in the cash shop.
AA is a subscription game with a Freemium/Hybrid/F2P option......just like SWTOR.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about tbh....
In the long term a f2p could compete with patrons. The gear is that, at some point you'll get to it; but still it's recommended to at least get APEX and become patron.
Adding to the post above, patrons (don't know if f2p too) get 5 loyalty coins every day they log in the game. You can spend these coins in the loyalty shop which has many things that are sold for credits in the cash shop; like labor potions, taxes certificates etc..
The fuss is this.
There is a small but vocal group of people who post that want every game to be free and have access to everything so they can spend all their waking hours playing it till they get bored in 2-3 months, and then spend the next couple of months complaining to everyone who will listen before they move onto the next game.
I really don't see any problem with this then. If a F2P user can basically achieve anything a patron could, but in a longer time, that is fine. Complaining about this, is like complaining about players who preorders a game, in order to be able to start ahead of others. As i've did some research as well, it seems you can purchase the patron status for ingame currency as well i don't believe this system is really bad for even F2P players. Sure they will have to work harder to achieve the same, but they can be there eventually.
Thanks for the answers.
The real debate is the fact that players can't fast forward their way to anything... even those paying a subscription will have to spend time getting there. It's the crux of the complaint, not the fact that there is a difference in earning potential. Sure, you're hearing the F2P crowd complain the loudest, but even the Patrons don't like the throttle on them as well. In essence, they like being top dog inside of 2 weeks and don't like any system that prevents them from doing that.
it isnt lol, if no one has gotten the point trying to be made after so long and still repeat "f2p just want everything". Then there is no hope of getting it across. I'm saying this as an observer, i don't have any qualms with the game.
I have been playing in the Alpha for a few weeks now, and so far this is my take on the labor point system.
It makes you actually play a game.....
Yep I said it, you have to actually play, can't just sit it a mining area and bot for a week on end. It makes you play every aspect of the game to progress with speed.
So you have to use the labor points for the crafting side of the game, this takes labor points away. Guess what, doing quest and fighting mobs builds labor points, also does logging off the game and sleeping for a while.
So you wake up and you do your daily worth of crafting, mining, gathering, whatever it is you need to do in that area till you run out of points, does that mean you have to log off for the day? nope.
Then you get your butt to killing some stuff and exploring the game, building up those labor points with every cave explored. Once you max them back out you can go back to doing whatever it is that lets you spend them.
The game isn't really built for min max run to end game in 1 week players. Everything in the game takes time, understanding and devotion to achieve. It doesn't matter if you are a subbed patron or a F2P player, everyone in this game works hard for every scrap of what they achieve.
Some will like it, others will hate it, but it is what it is.
The labor system is ok, but they need to tweak it so patrons get more regen.....As a patron if I log out for 24 hours I get 1,400 Labor....I can use that Labor crafting in less then 30 mins easy.
BTW im a pvper, not a crafter so if crafting was something I loved and I only got 30 mins worth of it Ide be pretty pissed
I spent about 2 hours mining in Halo Rise last night, then spent another 1 maybe 2 turning all that rock and mineral into processed ingots and stone blocks, and still had over 50% of my max labor points left over. Mining for hours on end and processing it all got boring so I went and quested a while maybe another 2 hours, and when I stopped I was back up to 75% labor points and I am sure when I log back in today when I get off work they will be 100% again.
I think people are reading way to much into the labor system, it has many purposes, but some of the best ones I will list.
1. Deters Botting, you can't bot all day every day because you will run out of labor points to run the bot.
2. Deterring bots = lower prices on economic goods.
3. Promotes exploration and others ways of gameplay, basically if makes those players who think MMO's are ment to be played in the same zone for 6 months gathering tree bark, branch out and see the world a little.
4. Immersion (i guess though I hate immersion) - Could a miner swing a pick axe for 72 hours straight without a break... nope, would a farmer tend a field for days on end without stopping... nope, would any type of crafting in any way continue past what we as people see as a normal work day... not really, I don't know any tailors in real life making hats for 48 hours straight... you know just a normal 8 hour work day. This is what the Labor system simulates to me, it is basically simulating real life labor into an MMO.
None of these points are bad things, ArcheAge has a lot of problems, I will be the first to admit that, but in the many years I have been playing MMO's, ArcheAge is the first MMO on the path to actually getting it right for once.
So, you don't get off-line labor points. Big deal. The "free" part is not free if you want a full game. The only way you get full services for anything is by paying for them. F2p is anything BUT free.....in any game.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I also find this to be true, and in almost every case, F2P games cost more to be competitive in the long run than a subscription based game.
Absolutely 100% true !
There are 2 kinds of people that "dominate" MMO's: those that can play 8-12 hours a day and those that spend several $100 per month on Cash Shop and/or goldseller purchases. Both of those categories aren't large percentages of the player base, but they are extremely significant, because they are usually the "winners". They have the best gear, the most gold and (in the case of the 8-12 hour players) the most knowledge of game systems.
You can insult and belittle and hate those 2 categories of players, but you cannot beat them !
Not sure how anyone is a winner in a themepark pve mmo ?......just not sure you can't have a winner in AA and although you may not be able to beat the above categories of players the use of LP sure tightens the field down a bit
Same here OP, I was really excited about the game but then playing the CBTs I realized that LP basically stopped you from doing everything fun in the game, especially if you are f2p.
Looking into it more, I concluded that AA is basically a sub-based game that also has a p2w cash shop. It is not of better quality than other sub based games I like so its hard to justify paying a sub to play it (not even better than some f2p games or b2p games), and playing as f2p defeats the whole reason of even playing the game since you are essentially limited to moving and fighting, things done far better in numerous other games.