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Is Gaming Leaving Gamers Behind? [linked article]
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You say,
"The industry and the medium are moving forward, but for a lot of people games have served as a refuge from everything they don't like about the world and their life."
and see no judgment in that? You are telling me that gamers that do "accept" the industry change must be nervous wrecks that avoid "the real world" and use games to escape?
Really, if you can not even see YOUR OWN WORDS, I have nothing more to say. How does one help a blind person see?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I dont think its that we like new features because the problem with that comment is that you actually need new features in order for there to be new features. I think the problem we have is a LACK of new features.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
There have been many new features over the past few years. What exactly are you talking about?
like what? terraforming? advanced farming maybe? oh wait I know, animal husbandry right?
no..I know...classes!....lol
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I can see you are really interested in having a meaningful conversation.
I'd list a few new features that have shown up in content patches/expansions/new game releases but I have a feeling you'll just deride them claiming they were insignificant or damaging to the genre.
wait..i know day night cycle!
sorry I know this will sound sarcastic and an advertisement but its not
'sorry bro I play Wurm and that increases the baseline for feature expectations tremendously, there is nothing new from the mainstream MMO world'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So pretty much ...he was right about you.
The internet is toxic. Particularly if you put yourself up in front of the public. It doesn't matter if you are a celebrity or a YouTube blogger, if you express an opinion on anything, expect a ton of hate and criticism to come your way. Even death and rape threats have become par to the course. Lets be frank, it is impossible for public figures to have a reasonable conversation about anything particularly sexism, terrorism, religion and sexuality. These are some of the issues of our time and it's impossible to discuss them on the internet.
The internet will become less free and more of a closed garden as time goes on. Leaked celebrity photos and terror videos is just another step in that direction. It used to be a place for people to express themselves freely and without the worry of retaliation.
patch notes? as evidence?
are you fucking kidding me?
anyway...the answer to 'why are people upset about MMOs' its because of the lack of new features, not because they are afraid of patch notes.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
LFR/LFD functions that work well are pretty new features, now common features. Fully voiced MMORPGs are new. Well, at least one of them is new. There is also new content utilizing new IPs to deliver the game play. That isn't a new feature, but it's certainly "new". Taking features from non-MMORPGs and then putting them into MMORPGs is new to the MMORPG genre. Not to mention new security features and new payment models.
There is new "stuff", even if a lot of the "stuff" isn't game play features.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think it is bad to overgeneralize honestly. As a member of the old guard, I think that MMORPGs have improved in many ways, mostly technical. For me the sweet point was 2003 to 2004 (not 1998 or whatever) and then there has been very little that I have really enjoyed playing that has come out since then.
The games from 2003 and 2004 were really quite revolutionary in comparison to the first MMORPGs. I don't go back to the first MMOs I played, I go back to games like EQ2 and WoW. In that sense, I have not refused to change but rather that the more recent offerings are rather boring in comparison. They have not really evolved that much since then, just the addition of technical things like phasing and megaservers that can be mixed blessings. If you look at what games like Rift and WS offer, they are pretty similar to what the batch of 2004 offers, just with less depth imo.
I am not clamouring at all for a new batch of oldschool games at all, but I would like to see more innovation. The game industry seems stagnant to me and that it is rather in the adolescent stage rather than in the grown up stage. The problem is that its adolescence is prolonged and something needs to jump start it again.
To me what is most exciting at the moment are games like PoE and other good multiplayer ARPGs. These games have innovated their genre more so than MMORPGs have in the past 5 years.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
It's more a case of taking two steps forward, but then taking one step back into a spike-filled pit. There is a general failure to recognize key components of older MMORPGs that caused long term issues, one of which was the damage dealer, healer, and tank holy trinity popularized by World of Warcraft. In that particular example, cross-server party building tools were added to address a serious issue where anyone playing a damage dealer would sometimes have upwards an hour before they got into a dungeon. The dungeon finder was introduced after Blizzard had attempted everything it could that didn't involve completely uprooting the role itself from the game.
So then we take a look at what other games have done, and most of them seem to think that everything is perfectly alright if they mix a cross-server grouping tool to offset the damage dealer overpopulation issue. Unfortunately, the solution provided by World of Warcraft also dissolved an important milestone in creating long term success for an MMORPG: Dungeons were meant to facilitate contact between human beings on the same server in order to build relationships.
I'm not disgruntled by game developers "moving forwards," but rather failing to see just how broken older MMORPGs really were. Instead of fixing the issues that caused these major malfunctions, they continue to pump out games that exalt the design of these older games as the perfect foundations upon which to build their own. Making damage dealer a role was a mistake that should never have been repeated. Strong upwards vertical progression in item stats and character level is a serious design flaw that also gets repeated non-stop.
The article was probably written by someone with little experience in the genre itself. It's easy for someone ignorant to see things that aren't really there.
Certainly not with that attitude. But honestly I'm asking myself the same question, so let me hand hold YOU now. For the nth and last time: I am most certainly judging people, but not on their choice of game as you (previously) kept asserting. I, unlike many people who are rooted in the past, do not care what kinds of games people play, or which kinds are popular so long as there's something that's up my alley. However I will certainly judge people who are acting ridicudlous. For instance I am judging you right now.
EDIT: And before you try and say you never accused me of judging people's choice of game...
You [in response to my first post]: I would add that judging a player's "maturity" on their choice of video game is kind of ignorant.
— Later —
Me: First off, I wasn't judging anyone's choice of video game, ...
You: Really? Let me refresh your memory. ...
I guess what gets me is when "old schoolers" complain, inevitably someone will hold up a handful of games and say, "Here! Play these new games." What they do not realize is that some players never played all the old school games, simply because they were "old school." I was very picky back then, too
This is why I do not consider myself a gamer. I simply just do not play everything and anything out there, or even nearly everything. My disc library of PC games may number nearly 100 games, including downloads for DOSBox. (I have added quite a few from GOG.com in the past couple of years, though.) So, saying a new game is labeled "old school" does not mean I will automatically enjoy it.
Take my small percentage of old school games I enjoyed and compare that to the percentage of new games with an old school feel to them, and my pickings are slim indeed. Just a fact of life
I guess, like you said, the industry has not left "gamers" behind. "Gamers", in my opinion generally speaking, will buy almost anything. I don't think the industry could leave them behind, unless they had a HUGE Hello Kitty run
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
what is...LFR/LFD?
So I know I dont represent all gamers but be very clear the reason I quick games like ArcheAge and EQ2 is because I felt they were not doing enough with their games NOT because they added a new 'feature' that I didnt like.
So while some of you are playing around with voice acting and claiming that people like me are afraid of new features I am busy on Wurm fucking TERRAFORMING!!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I don't think so, if that was the reason for people playing solo people wouldn't leave their apartment at all, they might meet the same whiny people at the pub, work or wherever.
Nah, I think part of it is closer to why Gollum lived alone (don't want anyone near the precious, it is my loot). More and more players fear that others will ninja their stuff.
Another part is that many people tend to play less time nowadays compared to the average MMO player 15 years ago. If you only log on 30 minutes a day you don't have time to get a group together and do a huge dungeon, you want short content you can do by yourself or anyone near.
The point of the games were rather different back then, most players spent loads of time on improving their character, now that is a short thing you do initially or when you roll an alt. After that loot is all that matters.
The new generation of games have indeed changed many things, some good while other changes are pretty bad. But i think far too many people expect a niche game with a budget for a common styled game and that never really have been the case. Games like Meridian 59, UO, EQ and AC all had rather moderate budgets even at their time and games focused on niche groups will continue to have that.
But I do believe that MMOs must try to become more social again. People aren't antisocial really, or Facebook would be a niche thing as well. There are some things to bring the community more together from old games, like player owned shops (people actually like to shop), some new things like how GW2 scale up DEs (it works very well at smaller stuff like caravan escorts but for huge events it tend to make people lonely in a huge group instead), and I am sure, plenty of things that will be invented in the years to come.
If you make MMOs too solo oriented you will just have a Diablo game after all but MMOs might need to become better to get people to socialize and adventure together. It is after all actually more fun with friends than by yourself.
Looking For Raid / Looking for Dungeon.
They are automated group building tools. They are good features in that they allow more people to see content in games that have more specialized endgame content offerings. They are bad features in that their presence encourages developers to lean toward only making that specialized endgame content offering, rather than venture out and try new types of content.
Terraforming is not a new gaming feature. You could terraform in some single player games long, long ago.
Terraforming also brings the hazards that player housing in general does - it has to be done right, especially in a large MMORPG setting, else players damage the experience of other players. I have no idea if the game you are playing does it right or not - I really don't care.
If your plot of land is not instanced though - it will probably suck overall if the game you are playing ever does get popular and hits mainstream.
The presence of other players is a mixed bag - sometimes a blessing and sometimes a curse. Some players will literally spend all their online game time trying to grief other players and if that means terraforming a moat of lava around another player's property line... well, it'll happen.
I've already seen people make traps to grief visitors in Landmark. I've already personally seen and heard of other stories where other players have made very offensive objects on their property - clearly for others to see. I have a real life friend that would solely play a sandbox MMO just to make such objects - fully expecting to get banned at some point.
LOL...that was hysterical
you champion 'looking for raid' as a new feature while pew pewing terraforming?
whatever dude. I am done.
I am just trying to tell you that I left mainstream MMO games because they didnt have interesting features NOT because they added 'looking for group'
believe something different if you like but that is the bottom line and that is why I am not playing your game.
people are not going around saying 'oh my i hate these new MMOs so many features, so confusing'
They ARE saying things like 'I am so tired of everything being the same, I have already done it!''
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
This whole "gaming leaving gamers behind" stuff coming out in the game press has nothing to do with the mechanics, gameplay, time or any of that. There's no reason to think, from what I've seen, that the game industry wants to do away with hardcore fandom, DLC, massive hours on treadmills, etc.
This has got to do with satisfying the claims of critics, typically feminist critics and old-school conservative moralists, that there's too much erotica, too much violence against women, too much gore, too much dirty language and so on. Their argument is basically that these games are transforming us into these 'misogynerds' that say abusive things to women and threaten violence over Twitter. It is basically Jack Thompson 2.0 ... except this time, Jack Thompson wears lipstick and subscribes to Ms. Magazine, and the gaming press is taking Jack Thompson's side.
The problem is, of course, that the feminist critics of gaming, like Anita Sarkeesian, are so obsessed with how women are portrayed, they fail to see how the games have, over the course of ten years, stripped out the things that women liked to do. Where is the entertainer class today? Where is crafting? Where is starting your own business? Where are the options for a deeper roleplaying experience? Because we used to have it, women (and men, also) used to like it, and we don't have that anymore.
Frankly, I think the best solution to all of this is to get back to sandbox...get back to something that includes other, non-combat activities and promotes community. Early SWG was a very friendly game to female interests. CoH was friendly to them too. But we don't have those games anymore because they've all been stripped of everything that wasn't "combat combat combat" all the time.
And so, rather than lobby to give women more reasons to play in these environments, thereby giving women the ability to influence the community from the inside, these critics would rather have women influence these communities from the outside, by taking issue with things like bare midriffs, female-gendered MOBs that we kill, hypersexualized renditions, etc. And this approach, in my opinion, is doing much more harm than good.
/EndRant
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
related to her conclusion
(Videogames) are becoming simply another medium—one with no inherent bias towards any group. In twenty years, it may sound as old-fashioned to call someone a “gamer” as it is to call someone a “moviegoer”.
disagree with her conclusion,
a common phrase with boardgaming meetups are "go unplugged" - play boardgames
implying a negative bias with video games
videogames will always be a subculture (as will be boardgaming)
in my biased opinion, from 40 years ago,
Pong in the 70s had a similar subculture to anyone playing WOW or Grand Theft Auto 5
EQ2 fan sites
completely disagree on multiple points.
1. (given the reaction toward Anita's points) which if you watch her videos is nearly 90% just showing obvious things with NO opinion on the matter at all. just an illustration. Its pretty clear that because of the outrage toward her that there is some fucked up problem and it aint with her.
2. There is to much violence in video games...full stop...and NOT because of any morality behind it. Its just 99.9% of all video games and its far over done, much over rated, tiring and now flat out fucking boring. yawn
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I'm not trying to nitpick, but that really looks like a statement of "there are new features over there, but I like these new features over here".
LFD/LFR is a feature that allows players to join dungeons and raids with groups of people without having to manually put the groups together using just chat. It allows players to slot themselves into specific roles. Combined with a system of tiered dungeons and raids where players can stumble through or focus a lot of time on them, it allows a much higher percentage of a game's population to enjoy dungeons and raids.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I guess one could argue that the features in game X are not appealing to some gamers and thus they move to games with feature Y instead.
However, to decribe that as 'gamers leaving because they dont like new features' is being disingenuous at best.
Now regardless of the reality of it let me tell you the immutable truth on my PERCEPTION and WHY I left AAA games. To be clear, what I am about say can be completely dilusional but the quesiton is 'WHY' did they leave and a 'why' in this context depends on how we (or I in this case) perceive the situation.
I left AAA gaming because they felt TO ME like they lacked innovation and repeated the same forumla over and over again. I FELT that the indie games had more interesting innovation to offer and I enjoy my game play more.
Now regardless of if indie games really are more innovation or not the answer to the question of WHY did I leave is NOT because I didnt like new features. In fact, in my mind it was the exact opposite.
Now...why would I have that impression if its is inncorrect?
LFR...my idea of innovation is not a tool that adds to the raiding mechanic but perhaps thinking of not having a raid at all and doing something completely different. LFR is like adding a AC to the back seat of a car when I want to drive a motorcycle
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
RE: #1 - I am very glad I am not the only person who can see this.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I tried to make a distinction between "game play" features and features "in general". There is new "stuff". A lot of it isn't game play, but things surrounding or supporting existing game play. I would say that supporting existing game play is an indicator that the game play has matured. It needs to be supported and improved, but doesn't need the dramatic changes that are an indicator of a genre "growing up" rather than "being mature". Not to improve sales or increase the number of players at any rate.
That's what we need Indie developers to do. They need to innovate and shake things up because that's how they are going to sell their games. MMORPGs are in the position of being the most expensive type of game to produce though. It makes it really hard for indie developers to even make an MMORPG, much less innovate something and be successful at it.
I'm not sure what to say about the behavior referenced in the article. Compare that behavior to the home computer market around say, 1983. Everyone I talked to and hung around with (in user groups no less) simply assumed that one day everyone would have a home computer. We rolled our eyes at people who thought you could create an artificial intelligence with a Commodor 64, but we knew that eventually computers would be ubiquitous. I don't recall anyone threatening anyone with rape, murder, torture, etc. because they wanted to buy a computer, no matter who they were. We weren't threatened by moms buying computers to keep recipes. That stuff is very disappointing, but at the same time, it is an indicator that the, I'm going to call it "fundamental" point of view, in gaming is dying. It will be a relief when it's finally dead so I can get on with playing games and I won't have to think about the social ramifications of what I'm doing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.