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PvP Concerns
dranael
Member UncommonPosts: 64
This game looks really promising other than it appears to be tab target based. I guess I can learn to overlook that old school game mechanic.
More importantly, I enjoy sandbox games but on their website I read some concerning news. If a evil player chooses to kill people he gets low reputation. This results in him being forced to live in a low rep settlement. That's all fine, however the next part says he will not have access to all the abilities people in high rep settlements have, resulting in him being easier to be killed in combat.
Why would you make him easier to beat in combat just because he chose to be an evil character. Sandbox games with open pvp are really fun because you know there are bad guys out there who should be looking out for, or hunting. I don't want to come up against these guys only to find they have been gimped and easy to kill.
I know we don't really know how this will work out, but in sandbox games, freedom of choice is what makes them great experiences. I fear to much penalty will hurt the immersive experience.
Comments
And where did you read that evil characters will be easier to kill?
LastI read on the subject your alignment affects what settlements you have access to, which EVE has the same system with security rating. Some abilities are limited like a Paladin's ability has alignment requirements which is how it should be. The Dev's want to make a fantasy EVE staple of game so I find it doubtful that they will punish banditry severely, there has to be some sort of check and balance for griefing though.
Personally I'm waiting to see if their engine improves. Animations are just bad, but this is alpha and I really like their concepts. Cut they are an indie company with a limited budget so right now my hopes lie in Everquest Next or possibly Archeage.
I am simply pointing out that gimping players based on who they decide to kill will only hurt the game. No matter how you look at it, it is the truth.
There are already safe zones, which are the exact opposite of sandbox features. I think that is enough to keep people protected. They don't need to limit their character based on in game actions.
It depends on the perspective of the player's chosen role. You'd have a point if the intent of the game's design was mostly to PK and to play the game as if it was an FPS shooter, going around killing everything in sight. Pathfinder Online, however offers so much more hence they have in-game-mechanics to deter endless ganking, griefing, and harrasment that ruins the experience for everyone. You obviously read their website where their reason for this design is thoroughly explained so I'm really not sure what you are seeking to achieve by posting on this forum. But I will copy paste just to recap for those may not know better;
Open World PvP
One of the most controversial parts of the game design for Pathfinder Online is the presence of widespread (but not unlimited) player vs. player combat.
We believe that PvP is a crucial component of the sandbox experience. Our game is predicated on the objective of maximizing meaningful human interaction and there is no experience more meaningful and more interactive than characters fighting each other. Combat between characters gives value and depth to every game system and drives the economy, the battle for territory and the objective of becoming a more powerful and versatile character. Human opponents make the game feel real in ways AI opponents never can. Remember that there is only one server for Pathfinder Online so everyone will share the same game space. There is not "PvE only" version of the game.
In most areas of the game world your character can be attacked by other characters. This system is not optional. Some players are very concerned that this kind of system leads inexorably to what we call a "murder simulator" - a game that degenerates into endless ganking, griefing, and harassment that ruins the experience for everyone.
Goblinworks is committed to the idea that we can re-introduce PvP as a meaningful part of the ways players interact without allowing the game to degenerate in that fashion.
We don't believe there's a magic bullet that solves all the problems with PvP with one shot. Rather we think the solution is a layered approach, ranging from in-game mechanical effects that impact characters who behave badly, to out-of-game moderation activities by our team to identify and reform or remove players who persist in being toxic to the community.
Our commitment to you is that we will work continuously on these aspects of the game to make them fun, make them sustainable, and to fight the tendencies that have ruined PvP in many previous MMOs. We recognize there are dangers and we're prepared to do everything in our power to resist them.
ReputationThe Reputation system is a major addition to the game system we inherited from the tabletop. Reputation adds a new dimension to the way the game tracks the behavior of characters. As your characters engage with others in PvP, your Reputation will change. Attacking and killing neutral or friendly opponents will have significant impacts on your Reputation. The lower your Reputation, the less desirable you will be as a member of a Settlement. Your character's Reputation affects the Settlement your character is a member of, and you may find that your fellow members would rather kick you out than tolerate your misbehavior.
As a part of our game design we have built in systems that will tend to shift gankers and griefers towards chaotic evil alignment with low Reputation. And we have designed the Settlement system such that Settlements which consist of members with those characteristics have degraded structures which limit their member's skills and abilities. In other words, as your character loses Reputation and is forced into a low-quality Settlement, your character will suffer mechanical penalties vs. other characters. Your character will lose power and be more easily defeated by others as a result of your actions.
Long story short ... yes there is PvP in the game but they want it to be meaningful. In other words they want to deter not encourage meaningless PvP, so there will be consequences for those who aim to gank, grief, and harrass. Why? Because left unchecked these type of behaviors ruin the gaming experience for everyone.
/kudos to Goblinworks
Yeah I'm crossing my fingers the tab-target is not a fatal flaw in the enjoyment of the game. I hope the combat turns out to be interesting and not some weird by-product of builds, macros and ping!
It's a good question, the "bad guys" however are more accurately described as "homicidal psychopathic maniacs" if their actions have zero negative consequences for going on a "killing spree" as per FPS which are effecitvely "murder simulators". In a RPG this is not taking into account "reciprocity" and "persistence". Hence you have to have significant consequences of which dampening progression IS a major consequence.
Effecitvely in an RPG you MUST design a ritualized combat engagement set of rules so the players are acting to some form of consistency and predictability instead of suddenly out of the blue "running amok" gung-ho which would be fine if "you only live twice Mr. Bond," applied as they'd SELECTIVELY exterminate themselves. But given reinarnation then you have to limit the progression...
...speaking of which reincarnation could be used to modify as a penalty?!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
First off there is a strong motion on the GW-alpha and Paizo PFO forums requesting that the targeting system has to be worked. The problems were described in detail and with emphasis.
As for PvP yes the rep system provides a serious incentive to not simply run around killing others indiscriminately. That said, they have multiple ways to encourage PvP without a worry about reputation (other than the problem of rep loss due to friendly fire, but more on that in a sec).
Not only can settlements declare war on one another, which makes PvP between war dec parties possible without rep worries. And companies can feud other companies for the next level of granularity. And then server-wide each player has the favor of several NPC factions, and when your faction is overtly hostile to someone of another faction that opens reputation-free PVP route.
The big deal is to try and counter meaningless ganking. But if your interests conflict with the interests of another there will be ways to, well, extend your roleplaying into the realm of personal combat. It just has to be meaningful in some way that the game is designed to measure.
In a sec: The friendly fire rules are expected to require organized PvP to actually be tactical and use formations. Formations assure you that your friends are here and the enemy is over there, which means that if you fire over there you won't hit your friends (but if you do, then expect to have to work that bad rep off).
To dream, perhaps to be.
That sounds very interesting to me. I am looking forward to the game as i have been a table top player for years. I agree there should be deterrents to mindless lowbe killing and ganking. If you kill someone walking down the street there should be a consequence. There are so many ways to make PVP I think the alignment system is an interesting twist, will have to see how it works in game.