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@PvPer: since you all don't like Gear progression, what substitute progression system(mechanics) app
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I noticed a lot of PvP MMO fans, tend to be against gear progression specifically when dealing with PvP MMOs.
so that has me curious. What's the ideal progression or progression mechanism for PvP fans in a PvP MMO?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Small perks and horizontal progression.
You can unlock a ton of different skills and abilities, but only use a certain number at any given time.
Gear progression is stupid beyond a certain point even in PvE games. I'd rather have my access to a raid be determined by my player skill, not an endless treadmill.
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Ill use first person shooters in my analogy here.....
PVP with no progression = Unreal Tournament/Halo
PVP with progression = Call of Duty
There is a reason Call of Duty completely anahilated UT and Halo in the Online FPS world.
PVP with no progression is "fun enough"....PVP with progression is "more fun".
Well, there are a few possibilities, like Realm abilities that Kyleran pointed out.
Another thing is guild progression, where the guild can unlock things (in some cases castles, guild cities and halls). Allowing the guild to progress is good since it means that the players have something to work together for.
And you can of course allow more customization to the player, like Guildwars does. It is not enough in itself but together with a fun game and a few other ways of progressions it works.
But the best PvP tend to occur when a newly made character with crap gear played by an expert just barely can beat a really crappy playing vet with good gear.
And good PvP is a reward in itself, that is the reson people actually still plays counter strike.
They should just do it like the FPS method. Unlock guns aren't really better, they just give you more playstyle options.
I think only items that are better in one area but are worse in another would work.
None.
Gear and progression are not the goal of PVP.
PVE is a gear treadmill and should be entirely about progression. PVP should be a game of dynamic territorial control. The territory that you and your guild/outfit/faction hold should be the reward itself.
I.E. Planetside 1
No progression? Twitch combat? Gear doesn't matter?
Then you don't want nor need an MMO space... you already have Halo, COD and a billion other PvP games.
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DAoC realm abilities, GW2 wvw perks are a good progression system.
Unlocking new weapons and components to those weapons are good progression systems (Battlefield and CoD did this well).
New skins for weapons, facepaint, cosmetic changes can be fun things to strive for. (TF2 hats anyone?)
Achievements for doing this in the wvw world are neat little things to work towards (like the season achievements for GW2 wvw seasons).
However, most pvpers seem to have fun just playing the game and don't always need to "progress". Nuketown from Black Ops is a great example of a specific map from a specific game that was probably the most popular of it's time, and is still enjoyed by many. PvP in itself is fun because no matter how many times you play the exact same map the individual match will never play out the exact same way.
In WoW, if they got rid of gear progression, but had a selection of different set bonuses, I'd be pretty happy. Some minor advantages for a specific type of playstyle.
My model for progression is what I call 'the three Cs' :
1) Currency (gold, plat, silver, credits, etc.)
2) Commodity (raw materials, trinkets, precious stones)
3) Crafting (manufactured items produced by an expert and bought with currency)
To me, gear isn't a good lootable. There ought to be some process in between the fight and gear.
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Specialization instead of pure progression. kind of like EVE. You need a variety of roles in a PVP team. The longer you play, the more fancy roles you can get into, but you will always need a few basic roles which new players can play just as good as veterans. "high-level" characters are invaluable, but newbies can always join as auxiliary roles and contribute to the fight (e.g. making it hard for enemy to escape or increase their miss rate but not really adding much to the dps) rather than just feeding the enemy. Technically there is still a "progression", but you don't progress from weak to strong, from useless to viable, but from sidekick to the hero.
No gear progression, no levels, no pre-set classes.
Instead more flexibility. I like the concept of the skill wheel in TSW and the skill points in ESO. I also like original Darkfall's concepts about leveling up skills as you use them. I'm not saying any of these games got it just right. But there are principles that should be able to work.
For example, you earn skill points that you can put into certain skill lines to make certain skill more powerful. You can choose to be a jack-of-all trades but master of none, or you can choose to specialize and be uber in whatever your focus is. So if you want to make a dedicated healer, tank, or support player, you can. If you want to make a glass-cannon you can. If you want to have multiple specialties, you can, but it will take a long time. So there can be continuous carrots to strive for, but they come as milestones in gaining skills, allotting points, and designing your character.
Also, there should be a significant cost to respec. It doesn't have to be gold (it probably shouldn't be), but maybe a quest chain or something.
^this. Gear progression/treadmill is a Blizzard time sink creation. One that needs to go away IMO.
I would also add that DAOC pre TOA which had no gear progression had possibly the best PVP of any MMO ever made. Partly because the realm abilities which allowed players to customize their chars to suit their playstyle but also due to the competitive balance. The gear you wore had little to do with winning fights. The fancy realm titles were nice too. As well as the notoriety of being on the top 10 list on the Herald which was a huge epeen stroke for players and guilds alike.
Any of the below are more to my liking than gear progression.
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I think that is the big one. Meaningful territory control is endless content in pvp. For as long as you're going to enjoy playing the game fighting over land that actually matters is the best reason that doesn't have anything to do with power creep or progression. Both are huge negatives in pvp.
How you give it meaning really depends on the game and what else there is, but when the combat is fun it really doesn't have to be that big of a bonus.
agreed.
your assertion that gear progression doesn't matter to pvpers is 100% wrong.
there's nothing better than beating all of the easy PVE content to get the best gear in the game and blowing up noobs who have no chance of survival. im not even joking, 100% serious here.
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That's my favorite out of that list, too. I'm looking forward to the upcoming changes in Mortal Online for exactly that reason.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If most MMOs were based on player skill progression that would be relevant. However, most aren't, so it's kind of apples and oranges. A PVPer is playing an FPS or Madden or outdoor sports or whatever for rewards other than character progression. He isn't playing an RPG - a predominantly stat-based progression genre - for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMO now a days means almost nothing,merely have internet will play.So it comes down to pvp and i have been doing it since before my MMORPG days.What i played for was the FUN and the challenge needed nothing more to satisfy me.The FUN part only comes when you know the design leaves almost everyone equal aside from latency of course.
As to progression i simply like progressing as a knowledgeable player,it should ALWAYS be about the player and not the gear.However leave it up to a few devs like Blizzard to make it more about the gear and less about the player and of course that model will be popular because people hate to lose.
A game should have good enough Ai that it forces players to make decisions so they have to react and play with several different styles instead of one repeating one that always works.
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