I dont think what AA does is pure P2W, but it is definitely borderline and the closest a freemium game has come to actual p2w.
I don't play EvE... Can someone that does explain to me how, in practise, the trade of labour pots bought for RL cash for game currency is different in practise to Plex?
Do Plex not allow you to buy power in that game?
Honest question.
Plex is a monthly sub (afaik), like Kronos. No power.
Idea might be good, but how it's been used in this game it isn't. So it's not given quite a few people a good impression. Also may not be seen as pay to win but defo is a huge advantage with the current changes. not sure why they lowered the CD in the first place, what happened to "the 12 hr is keep the economy healthy"?
I dont think what AA does is pure P2W, but it is definitely borderline and the closest a freemium game has come to actual p2w.
I don't play EvE... Can someone that does explain to me how, in practise, the trade of labour pots bought for RL cash for game currency is different in practise to Plex?
Do Plex not allow you to buy power in that game?
Honest question.
Plex is a monthly sub (afaik), like Kronos. No power.
Really? The in game currency that sell these things for in those games doesn't buy you progression or power?
I dont think what AA does is pure P2W, but it is definitely borderline and the closest a freemium game has come to actual p2w.
I don't play EvE... Can someone that does explain to me how, in practise, the trade of labour pots bought for RL cash for game currency is different in practise to Plex?
Do Plex not allow you to buy power in that game?
Honest question.
The difference between this system and systems like PLEX is based on who is selling the product, not buying it. LP Pots are being sold by Trion to the player directly, it's a 2 party transaction, So Trion gets money, Player gets LP Pot.
In Plex, there are 3 parties. Player 1 buys the Game time from CCP and then sells it to Player 2. In the PLEX case, it's not Pay to win, but there is absolutely a power advantage to be made through RMT. It just goes to the one selling PLEX, not buying it.
Bill, you seemed to completely ignore the ramification of unlimited labor on the game economy. Unlimited labor = unlimited resources = unlimited gold = unlimited inflation. This game is heavily dependent on its economy. With a high inflation it destroys the economy.
"people wanted more of them on the AH." I assume this is from a OBT survey that Trion used as explanation. Only problem is, no one has found anyone who got the survey. Did you the the survey Bill? 2 biggest complaint on official forums were F2p labor regen and that labor pots allowed far too much labor regen. Patron allows just under 3k per day online. previous pots allowed an additional 12,000 regen per day. New cooldown on pots allow 36,000 regen per day. The was the exact opposite the players were asking for from Trion.
Anybody who thinks that is good, is delusional, and does the MMO genre a disservice.
It's just another form of suppression, to control the progression of players.
Players do not need the devs telling them how long they should play by restricting their playing time. Do we really want the genre to have "pre-paid cellphone cards", just to progress, and for executing commands in-game? This is what the LP system basically does. If you run out of "minutes", you have to pay more money to continue, whether if it's real money or in-game currency.
I spend all my labor points to craft a body armor, I'm so happy, then I logged out
Two days later I logged in and I want to craft a leg armor, let's mine something!! Then I realized I have to spend an hour logged in to replenish my LP, several hours to gather the required items, several hours to craft the required components (and buy them, if I short on money it could take longer) and another hour to replenish it to the max so I can craft my leg armor.
When someone asked me what kind of game Archeage is, I'll tell them it's an online waiting game
Because i can play only 2-3 hour a day. And i can't use all of my LP that is being generated in that time. So why should anyone else be able to purchase it off from AH, just because he plays 10 hours a day and earns more gold by doing so?!
I demand to give patrons the same LP regen the F2P users have.
Because i can't afford to pay 15 bucks a month. And it's unfair if someone can get ahead of me for real cash.
Then, how about, we demand to remove all benefits that was given with founder packs. It's unfair, because people are getting ahead of us, due to the items came with it.
How does Trion dare to put LP pots on shop for real money, or even shorten their cd, when you have already paid for your pat... oh wait..
"So, take this as you will, but what I do know is that Trion has actively been listening to and reacting on the player’s closed beta and alpha feedback between patches."
Yet, I have seen no evidence they have listened to most (if any) feedback. I myself submitted a ticket CBT3 and received a canned response roughly a week later. The reply made no mention of my issue. I replied with my discovery and posted in the official forums as well as a reply to the email. Still nothing.
For those that don't want to click the link, 92,8% says no while 7% claims they did.
The problem is that Trion didn't issue a survey to most players. How can they have listened to the players when they offered no means for players to provide concise feedback? Unless, of course, you are privy to inside information the rest of us don't know.
" Traditionally, the people who do the best in games like ArcheAge have always been the ones who could afford to be online the most. The “One Percenters of Free Time” would control everything in a game like ArcheAge without labor points."
What? You get more points being online than offline. It follows, therefore, that people with more time on their hands to be online will get Labor and be more powerful. What on earth is he trying to say here?
I have to be honest, I'm not SUPER hot on labor points as anything other than an equalizer between subs and patrons. I would feel much better if LP's gave you a % buff on LP gain with diminishing returns, so if a Patron took one, they'd generate 25 LP per hour online, and a F2P player ended up with 20. Perhaps like 18 per hour offline for Patrons, and like 15 per hour F2P. That would encourage people to utilize subs to get the maximum Labor Point benefit (along with all the other patron benefits) while it would allow people who weren't paying for patron to hang pretty closely.
But as long as the potions are not BOP then i'm much more OK with it. When Neverwinter changed Coalescent Wards to Bind on Account, it firmly forced people to start paying for them. Yes conceivably you could buy Zen with diamonds, but the backlog is over 13 million, this means that it could take WEEKS for you to get enough Zen to purchase the wards with the diamonds you have earned. As long as Trion doesn't go this route, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and sub to patron. If they pop that change though, I'll walk away just like I did with Neverwinter.
Honestly, any illusions of the labor system existing for the good of the game should have gone out the window as soon as the system became entirely circumventable if you just pay a lot of cash. Which is now the case thanks to the reduced CD on labor potions.
Hear that? It's Trion's and XL's executives saying "KA-CHING!
Personally, I do not have a problem with LP except for needing it for gear. As soon as they fix that, people really don't have a reason to b*tch about it.
2.player buys those items that can be sold on the AH equal to 300$
3.sells the items in the AH and get a bunch of gold
4.buys top gear.
= P2W
It is as simple as that, if you can buy something with rl money in a unlimited amount and sell it in game for gold you have your self a P2W system.
Im sure the game will be good either way but it is still P2W
It's funny, because just 3 years ago, some of these posters would've been screaming p2w threatening to quit the genre. Now, it's accepted as normal, because it's their game.
Originally posted by Albatroes Personally, I do not have a problem with LP except for needing it for gear. As soon as they fix that, people really don't have a reason to b*tch about it.
Unfortunately that would not make sense from a business point of view, in order to encourage sales of LP potions etc, then Labour points have to be integral to most of the activities in the game, it not only encourages players to become subscribers, but it encourages those who have, let us say, a more 'intensive' form of gameplay to not only subscribe but to make additional purchases to allow them to do so, it really is a win/win situation for Trion and practically certain to generate a significant amount of income.
The labor point system is fine, having labor point potions in the cash shop is not.
If the LP system worked equally for all subscribers it would be ok but it doesn't.
Players with more RL money will buy LP pots and have an advantage over the ones that can't or won't buy them.
This is a clear case of pay to win...or pay twice to play as I like to call it.
Sadly most of you are too thick to see the problem here and due to your apathy we'll surely be seeing more of this nonsense in future releases, c'est la vie...
Comments
Plex is a monthly sub (afaik), like Kronos. No power.
Idea might be good, but how it's been used in this game it isn't. So it's not given quite a few people a good impression. Also may not be seen as pay to win but defo is a huge advantage with the current changes. not sure why they lowered the CD in the first place, what happened to "the 12 hr is keep the economy healthy"?
Really? The in game currency that sell these things for in those games doesn't buy you progression or power?
The difference between this system and systems like PLEX is based on who is selling the product, not buying it. LP Pots are being sold by Trion to the player directly, it's a 2 party transaction, So Trion gets money, Player gets LP Pot.
In Plex, there are 3 parties. Player 1 buys the Game time from CCP and then sells it to Player 2. In the PLEX case, it's not Pay to win, but there is absolutely a power advantage to be made through RMT. It just goes to the one selling PLEX, not buying it.
I have no problem with labor points I have a problem on how its organized.
killing spiders all day = no labor points used
making some pie for your mom = labor points used.
bad
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Understand the complaints but what's the alternative? The game being dominated by the no-lifers, live with mom types.
A catchup mechanism for the society contributors is great.
It's the "energy" of Facebook/Zynga games.
Anybody who thinks that is good, is delusional, and does the MMO genre a disservice.
It's just another form of suppression, to control the progression of players.
Players do not need the devs telling them how long they should play by restricting their playing time. Do we really want the genre to have "pre-paid cellphone cards", just to progress, and for executing commands in-game? This is what the LP system basically does. If you run out of "minutes", you have to pay more money to continue, whether if it's real money or in-game currency.
It's more of a hold back system for people with more time than a catch up one for those without.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That is the best euphemism I have seen for "P2W"
I spend all my labor points to craft a body armor, I'm so happy, then I logged out
Two days later I logged in and I want to craft a leg armor, let's mine something!! Then I realized I have to spend an hour logged in to replenish my LP, several hours to gather the required items, several hours to craft the required components (and buy them, if I short on money it could take longer) and another hour to replenish it to the max so I can craft my leg armor.
When someone asked me what kind of game Archeage is, I'll tell them it's an online waiting game
T___T
I demand to make labor pots untradeable.
Because i can play only 2-3 hour a day. And i can't use all of my LP that is being generated in that time. So why should anyone else be able to purchase it off from AH, just because he plays 10 hours a day and earns more gold by doing so?!
I demand to give patrons the same LP regen the F2P users have.
Because i can't afford to pay 15 bucks a month. And it's unfair if someone can get ahead of me for real cash.
Then, how about, we demand to remove all benefits that was given with founder packs. It's unfair, because people are getting ahead of us, due to the items came with it.
How does Trion dare to put LP pots on shop for real money, or even shorten their cd, when you have already paid for your pat... oh wait..
Here's where you lose me:
"So, take this as you will, but what I do know is that Trion has actively been listening to and reacting on the player’s closed beta and alpha feedback between patches."
Yet, I have seen no evidence they have listened to most (if any) feedback. I myself submitted a ticket CBT3 and received a canned response roughly a week later. The reply made no mention of my issue. I replied with my discovery and posted in the official forums as well as a reply to the email. Still nothing.
Ok, no big deal, right?
Then I see this thread on their forums.
http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?36076-So-who-took-a-survey
For those that don't want to click the link, 92,8% says no while 7% claims they did.
The problem is that Trion didn't issue a survey to most players. How can they have listened to the players when they offered no means for players to provide concise feedback? Unless, of course, you are privy to inside information the rest of us don't know.
" Traditionally, the people who do the best in games like ArcheAge have always been the ones who could afford to be online the most. The “One Percenters of Free Time” would control everything in a game like ArcheAge without labor points."
What? You get more points being online than offline. It follows, therefore, that people with more time on their hands to be online will get Labor and be more powerful. What on earth is he trying to say here?
Exactly.
That is how it isn't pay to win, because said gear isn't available in the cash shop.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
I have to be honest, I'm not SUPER hot on labor points as anything other than an equalizer between subs and patrons. I would feel much better if LP's gave you a % buff on LP gain with diminishing returns, so if a Patron took one, they'd generate 25 LP per hour online, and a F2P player ended up with 20. Perhaps like 18 per hour offline for Patrons, and like 15 per hour F2P. That would encourage people to utilize subs to get the maximum Labor Point benefit (along with all the other patron benefits) while it would allow people who weren't paying for patron to hang pretty closely.
But as long as the potions are not BOP then i'm much more OK with it. When Neverwinter changed Coalescent Wards to Bind on Account, it firmly forced people to start paying for them. Yes conceivably you could buy Zen with diamonds, but the backlog is over 13 million, this means that it could take WEEKS for you to get enough Zen to purchase the wards with the diamonds you have earned. As long as Trion doesn't go this route, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and sub to patron. If they pop that change though, I'll walk away just like I did with Neverwinter.
Honestly, any illusions of the labor system existing for the good of the game should have gone out the window as soon as the system became entirely circumventable if you just pay a lot of cash. Which is now the case thanks to the reduced CD on labor potions.
Hear that? It's Trion's and XL's executives saying "KA-CHING!
1.player joins the game.
2.player buys those items that can be sold on the AH equal to 300$
3.sells the items in the AH and get a bunch of gold
4.buys top gear.
= P2W
It is as simple as that, if you can buy something with rl money in a unlimited amount and sell it in game for gold you have your self a P2W system.
Im sure the game will be good either way but it is still P2W
It's funny, because just 3 years ago, some of these posters would've been screaming p2w threatening to quit the genre. Now, it's accepted as normal, because it's their game.
Unfortunately that would not make sense from a business point of view, in order to encourage sales of LP potions etc, then Labour points have to be integral to most of the activities in the game, it not only encourages players to become subscribers, but it encourages those who have, let us say, a more 'intensive' form of gameplay to not only subscribe but to make additional purchases to allow them to do so, it really is a win/win situation for Trion and practically certain to generate a significant amount of income.
Why is it good? Ah, its not good.
Got paid for this text?
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
The labor point system is fine, having labor point potions in the cash shop is not.
If the LP system worked equally for all subscribers it would be ok but it doesn't.
Players with more RL money will buy LP pots and have an advantage over the ones that can't or won't buy them.
This is a clear case of pay to win...or pay twice to play as I like to call it.
Sadly most of you are too thick to see the problem here and due to your apathy we'll surely be seeing more of this nonsense in future releases, c'est la vie...