I find the community around landmark has way too much influence on the game. Community is just a minority of loud but very dedicated fans, who might get some stuff they want but aren't always representing what others want. When SoE say "we are building a game together with the community" I think they are making a mistake. A few surpricing features has come out of this community cooperation in Landmark, but it is also starting to feel strange and out of place making me wonder what the point of the game is. Also the listening part on SoE side is completely lacking when it comes to acknowledging and trying to fix actual problems.
But anything is better than letting Smedley make game decisions haha.
I find the community around landmark has way too much influence on the game. Community is just a minority of loud but very dedicated fans,
Who essentially make up the only players that matter except for when metrics are available. They take the time to post in a forum that dares them to do so by its very name and then get referred to like carpetbaggers.
The Small But Vocal description is the opposite of the Large But Silently Lethargic group that don't express anything save for usage. This isn't so much as response to you kjempff as it is to that forum cliché wherein people who take the time to voice something are essentially referred to as just loud protesters. Are there stupid demands and complaints, yes, but at least they tried.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
You can see this in reverse too. . . Me and my wife have played Landmark since day 1 we like the game and it will be great when it is finished. But if the marketing plan that rests on the interest and activity of individuals streaming on Twitch, running competitions on Twitter and so on was Omeeds idea (and i do like the guy) then things are different. When Closed Beta started everybody thought that Open Beta for LandMark would at the LATEST start in October, now I do not think open Beta will happen in 2014 at all.
We have had 2 major content additions, caves and PvP. Caves was a dud with almost no interesting loot, strange resource distribution and other problems it brought players back for a short time. The much hyped PvP turned out to be a laggy Bunny Hopping contest with forced mouselook in combat (no mouse look out of combat) no keybindings and some existing gear (rings with lots of extra speed and so on) making the experience dead on arrival for most players. PvP is a even bigger dud than caves after only 1.5 weeks.
But the marketing plan after almost 8 months is still that people shall sit and watch people harvest and build on TwitchTv. There are much fewer people that streams Landmark on Twitch now and those who does have less viewers, fewer are actively Tweeting about Landmark and a lot of the positive marketing they did get in the beginning is gone. The whole community based marketing plan would have been great IF Landmark had been ready to launch in October as the interest could have been kept alive with updates and new content. Now they have lost a lot of the positive vibes they had, they have to rebuild interest again.
If this marketing plan that clearly did not work due to slow development was Omeeds, then the reason for him leaving SOE can bee seen in another light. And I have not even talked about the resentment from many of the players that some of the best/most desirable (the portcullis) items in Landmark can not be attained in game but you have to sit and watch TwitchTv or follow people on Twitter to have a chance to get the items
I find the community around landmark has way too much influence on the game. Community is just a minority of loud but very dedicated fans,
Who essentially make up the only players that matter except for when metrics are available. They take the time to post in a forum that dares them to do so by its very name and then get referred to like carpetbaggers.
The Small But Vocal description is the opposite of the Large But Silently Lethargic group that don't express anything save for usage. This isn't so much as response to you kjempff as it is to that forum cliché wherein people who take the time to voice something are essentially referred to as just loud protesters. Are there stupid demands and complaints, yes, but at least they tried.
The large silent group are the ones that will fund the game, not the few premium founders. It is really hard to try to listen to the silent group (obviously), but it is still very important to not loose them. What I am saying is that it is hard to find the right path when there is constant pressure from parts that you feel has to get something for their efford and investment.
So sad his vision of complete control over the players and his censorship and idolification of his person didn't go over with the people at SOE. Such a shame, really. Good riddance.
I find the community around landmark has way too much influence on the game. Community is just a minority of loud but very dedicated fans,
Who essentially make up the only players that matter except for when metrics are available. They take the time to post in a forum that dares them to do so by its very name and then get referred to like carpetbaggers.
The Small But Vocal description is the opposite of the Large But Silently Lethargic group that don't express anything save for usage. This isn't so much as response to you kjempff as it is to that forum cliché wherein people who take the time to voice something are essentially referred to as just loud protesters. Are there stupid demands and complaints, yes, but at least they tried.
The large silent group are the ones that will fund the game, not the few premium founders. It is really hard to try to listen to the silent group (obviously), but it is still very important to not loose them. What I am saying is that it is hard to find the right path when there is constant pressure from parts that you feel has to get something for their efford and investment.
Yeah you're right of course, the end is ultimately determined by the customers, but if you put up forums and ask what people want then how can you blame anyone for doing so? And I agree that you can't lose your big silent majority, but the question is how do you know if you are doing that? Copy WoW, Don't copy WoW, include dynamic content, Use PvP for your endgame, etc. Good post though
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
He was trying to push for something different he was trying to listen to the community and his bosses told him NO, They said Look at ESO, Look at StarWars, all we have to do is promise a bunch of BS, hell we can even throw the word sandbox in there like AA does, and the sheep will pre order by the millions ! we will make a boat load of money and then dump it off as free to play later on!
I agree with his supervisors that focusing on landmark is not the way to market EQnext.
I've tried the Landmark beta, I have no interest in it, I am not artistic or a designer, any buildings I create look like a 2 year old built them.
On the other hand, EQnext is the mmo I've been looking forwards to the most. I wish they would stop implying Landmark is anything to do with EQnext as by doing so, they are beginning to make me think that maybe EQnext isn't going to be what I hoped.
I get what Landmark is (I think), more of a building designe for EQ, but most people I know that are looking forward to EQnext, have zero interest in Landmark and wish they would shut up about promoting Landmark and talk more about EQnext instead
Originally posted by Archlyte He saw the division between direction of the product and what the players want in advance, and dodged the coming storm. Good for Omeed, he took a principled stand. I will support his future work if I can.
Pretty much my thoughts. He's the kind of guy you can actually build a community around and if I was him I wouldn't be anywhere near this franchise that can't even hold it's own branding.
Originally posted by Legere sucks for omeed, but just like any job, your boss is your boss. fall in line, do as they say, do your job as what is asked of you and there wont be any trouble. going on your own crusade will end up unpleasant for you. right or wrong, there is a hierarchy in place and employees need to learn to follow the leaders, not the other ways around.
Jesus, this may be the most depressing thing I have read all day.
Ofc, the other option is to quit and pursue your passions and interests and work alongside other people that inspire you.
Originally posted by Legere sucks for omeed, but just like any job, your boss is your boss. fall in line, do as they say, do your job as what is asked of you and there wont be any trouble. going on your own crusade will end up unpleasant for you. right or wrong, there is a hierarchy in place and employees need to learn to follow the leaders, not the other ways around.
That is probably one of the dumbest pieces of advice i have ever heard. There is no way i would ever work for a company that had that kind of business ethic and any company that operated like that would be fairly short lived anyway
SOE has allways failed since they released "their" Everquest. Great Ideas and Concepts - pisspoor Execution, Handling, Reliability - all of their other games have fallen short the expectation and that is only bcs SOE has hilarious expectations, market knowledge, bad quality controls and usualy is ripe for a Management disaster anyway in any game on any plattform.
They still have to proof they got better - EQ:Landmark/Next is again a promising Project but i totally see the possibility for it ruined by SOE falling back into the old "We will make it bust" Matrix.
Time will tell...
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
So I take it as , he really did wanna build a MMO through the community.
But, the big shots wanna once again keep doing crap that has failed a billion times already ?
That's how I interpreted it. Could be completely wrong, but it seems to be in-line with SOE/Smedley's past behavior.
Basically,
Priority 1: $$$
Priority 2: $$$
Priority 3: Anything else, if it can be spun to make more $$$.
Priority 4: Community? What's that? Ohhhh you mean those sucker.. err... EQ1 players whose memories and stories we exploite... err.. "shared"... to build up the "nostalgia" factor for our EQN release? Yeah, we really laid that on thick, didn't we? We expect it should really help with the $$$.
They (Smedley in particular) have made outright promises to their community in the past, only to backtrack on them when it was no longer "financially advantageous" to them. For example, guaranteeing they would never implement RMT type systems into any current games (then EQ2, EQ1, etc), claiming that they understood that it wouldn't be right for those games. The moment they saw F2P/Cash Shops taking off, that whole view changed. Within months, EQ2, then EQ1 went F2P with cash shops.
In advance of that change, Smed was out there stating how F2P was the future, and that SWTOR would be the last AAA MMO with a sub. Many, including myself, saw through it and said he was wrong... and he was.
All of a sudden, they realize there's still $$$ to be made in subs, so they start pushing subs again, with their rebranded Station Pass setup.
You can pretty much infer what SOE's next big move is just based on whatever nonsense Smedley's pushing at the moment.
I don't believe a damn thing they say. If any company has ever been consistently deserving of extreme cynicism... it's SOE.
Facts, EQN will do what its gona do no matter what dev leaves. Omeed and some game are gona get married sometime soon. Grass is always greener on the other side and I think Omeed really left for what he thinks is greener pastures. I hope he does well but I have to admit, I am not going to miss him in the live streams.
I don't think he was unprofessional at all. Why can't he express how he feels? Is there something wrong with that? If people want to know why he left, now they do! Problem solved.
I agree with grimal. He WAS very polite. He could have burned some bridges, but he didn't.
He never said the remaining faculty doesn't care what the community wants. You invented that from what he said.
What aren't people allowed to say "I like the color blue" without it having some hidden, evil meaning. How about taking the statement exactly as it was stated?
I really wish people would stop reading into things and making problems out of nothing.
Originally posted by Legere sucks for omeed, but just like any job, your boss is your boss. fall in line, do as they say, do your job as what is asked of you and there wont be any trouble. going on your own crusade will end up unpleasant for you. right or wrong, there is a hierarchy in place and employees need to learn to follow the leaders, not the other ways around.
That is probably one of the dumbest pieces of advice i have ever heard. There is no way i would ever work for a company that had that kind of business ethic and any company that operated like that would be fairly short lived anyway
OMG, to the OP, wow. You sound like a sheep. What if Bill Gates thought this way? What about Zuckerman? What about any of the ULTRA-successful pioneers that did things the way THEY wanted? You would have never heard of any of these people if they ducked their head down and "fell in line".
I rarely see anyone make it big or make a name for themselves by kissing their bosses ass. I worked at a large, well known software firm that in one dept, *still* has a complete HACK of a manager. His lack of knowledge, mindless devotion to kissing the uppers asses, DESTROYED the product. Complaints about the product in the site's forums went on and on. I fought against the grain for the CUSTOMER and eventually, like Omeed, I gave up and resigned, and I never, ever looked back. Best decision I ever made.
Your suggestions is basically saying that if your captain is aiming for an iceberg, you should support him and go down with the ship. That's idiotic.
Originally posted by Legere sucks for omeed, but just like any job, your boss is your boss. fall in line, do as they say, do your job as what is asked of you and there wont be any trouble. going on your own crusade will end up unpleasant for you. right or wrong, there is a hierarchy in place and employees need to learn to follow the leaders, not the other ways around.
That is probably one of the dumbest pieces of advice i have ever heard. There is no way i would ever work for a company that had that kind of business ethic and any company that operated like that would be fairly short lived anyway
OMG, to the OP, wow. You sound like a sheep. What if Bill Gates thought this way? What about Zuckerman? What about any of the ULTRA-successful pioneers that did things the way THEY wanted? You would have never heard of any of these people if they ducked their head down and "fell in line".
I rarely see anyone make it big or make a name for themselves by kissing their bosses ass. I worked at a large, well known software firm that in one dept, *still* has a complete HACK of a manager. His lack of knowledge, mindless devotion to kissing the uppers asses, DESTROYED the product. Complaints about the product in the site's forums went on and on. I fought against the grain for the CUSTOMER and eventually, like Omeed, I gave up and resigned, and I never, ever looked back. Best decision I ever made.
Your suggestions is basically saying that if your captain is aiming for an iceberg, you should support him and go down with the ship. That's idiotic.
I've been in a similar situation and absolutely agree, if you have major differences in opinion with the direction the company is heading you absolutely owe it to yourself to change the situation by finding a new job or other way of earning income.
Granted it's not easy to just quit and find a new job, due to bills and other commitments, but I've been in a similar situation twice as the post above and it worked out for the best in the long run.
I hope EQN will be a great game and at least intend to try the beta to see for myself. It is sad to see Omeed go however.
Comments
Yeah wonder what "community first" means.
I find the community around landmark has way too much influence on the game. Community is just a minority of loud but very dedicated fans, who might get some stuff they want but aren't always representing what others want. When SoE say "we are building a game together with the community" I think they are making a mistake. A few surpricing features has come out of this community cooperation in Landmark, but it is also starting to feel strange and out of place making me wonder what the point of the game is. Also the listening part on SoE side is completely lacking when it comes to acknowledging and trying to fix actual problems.
But anything is better than letting Smedley make game decisions haha.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Who essentially make up the only players that matter except for when metrics are available. They take the time to post in a forum that dares them to do so by its very name and then get referred to like carpetbaggers.
The Small But Vocal description is the opposite of the Large But Silently Lethargic group that don't express anything save for usage. This isn't so much as response to you kjempff as it is to that forum cliché wherein people who take the time to voice something are essentially referred to as just loud protesters. Are there stupid demands and complaints, yes, but at least they tried.
You can see this in reverse too. . . Me and my wife have played Landmark since day 1 we like the game and it will be great when it is finished. But if the marketing plan that rests on the interest and activity of individuals streaming on Twitch, running competitions on Twitter and so on was Omeeds idea (and i do like the guy) then things are different. When Closed Beta started everybody thought that Open Beta for LandMark would at the LATEST start in October, now I do not think open Beta will happen in 2014 at all.
We have had 2 major content additions, caves and PvP. Caves was a dud with almost no interesting loot, strange resource distribution and other problems it brought players back for a short time. The much hyped PvP turned out to be a laggy Bunny Hopping contest with forced mouselook in combat (no mouse look out of combat) no keybindings and some existing gear (rings with lots of extra speed and so on) making the experience dead on arrival for most players. PvP is a even bigger dud than caves after only 1.5 weeks.
But the marketing plan after almost 8 months is still that people shall sit and watch people harvest and build on TwitchTv. There are much fewer people that streams Landmark on Twitch now and those who does have less viewers, fewer are actively Tweeting about Landmark and a lot of the positive marketing they did get in the beginning is gone. The whole community based marketing plan would have been great IF Landmark had been ready to launch in October as the interest could have been kept alive with updates and new content. Now they have lost a lot of the positive vibes they had, they have to rebuild interest again.
If this marketing plan that clearly did not work due to slow development was Omeeds, then the reason for him leaving SOE can bee seen in another light. And I have not even talked about the resentment from many of the players that some of the best/most desirable (the portcullis) items in Landmark can not be attained in game but you have to sit and watch TwitchTv or follow people on Twitter to have a chance to get the items
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
Have zero trust in SOE, so unlikely I will buy this game, this thread just drives home that fact.
Its a a pity as some of their games could have being great, but the way they deal with their customers on a whole puts me off them even more.
www.Immortals-mmo.co.uk
OMG AWESOME.
I will now read the article. This dude almost single handedly drove me from Landmark and wanting to have anything to do with the development process.
Pvp in before pve. Claim and capture point flags in. Now Omeed leaves. 2015 might not be a bad year for Lanmark and EQN.
The large silent group are the ones that will fund the game, not the few premium founders. It is really hard to try to listen to the silent group (obviously), but it is still very important to not loose them. What I am saying is that it is hard to find the right path when there is constant pressure from parts that you feel has to get something for their efford and investment.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Yeah you're right of course, the end is ultimately determined by the customers, but if you put up forums and ask what people want then how can you blame anyone for doing so? And I agree that you can't lose your big silent majority, but the question is how do you know if you are doing that? Copy WoW, Don't copy WoW, include dynamic content, Use PvP for your endgame, etc. Good post though
He was trying to push for something different he was trying to listen to the community and his bosses told him NO, They said Look at ESO, Look at StarWars, all we have to do is promise a bunch of BS, hell we can even throw the word sandbox in there like AA does, and the sheep will pre order by the millions ! we will make a boat load of money and then dump it off as free to play later on!
Thats why he quit it happen just like that.
See ya!!!!!
"Community First" is marketing slogan for zero content creation by the developers.
Such a lazy and pathetic excuse not to create anything to do in the game and rely on players to amuse themselves.
If this is the future of the MMO, well it is really dead.
I've tried the Landmark beta, I have no interest in it, I am not artistic or a designer, any buildings I create look like a 2 year old built them.
On the other hand, EQnext is the mmo I've been looking forwards to the most. I wish they would stop implying Landmark is anything to do with EQnext as by doing so, they are beginning to make me think that maybe EQnext isn't going to be what I hoped.
I get what Landmark is (I think), more of a building designe for EQ, but most people I know that are looking forward to EQnext, have zero interest in Landmark and wish they would shut up about promoting Landmark and talk more about EQnext instead
Pretty much my thoughts. He's the kind of guy you can actually build a community around and if I was him I wouldn't be anywhere near this franchise that can't even hold it's own branding.
Jesus, this may be the most depressing thing I have read all day.
Ofc, the other option is to quit and pursue your passions and interests and work alongside other people that inspire you.
That is probably one of the dumbest pieces of advice i have ever heard. There is no way i would ever work for a company that had that kind of business ethic and any company that operated like that would be fairly short lived anyway
SOE has allways failed since they released "their" Everquest.
Great Ideas and Concepts - pisspoor Execution, Handling, Reliability - all of their other games have fallen short the expectation and that is only bcs SOE has hilarious expectations, market knowledge, bad quality controls and usualy is ripe for a Management disaster anyway in any game on any plattform.
They still have to proof they got better - EQ:Landmark/Next is again a promising Project but i totally see the possibility for it ruined by SOE falling back into the old "We will make it bust" Matrix.
Time will tell...
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
That's how I interpreted it. Could be completely wrong, but it seems to be in-line with SOE/Smedley's past behavior.
Basically,
Priority 1: $$$
Priority 2: $$$
Priority 3: Anything else, if it can be spun to make more $$$.
Priority 4: Community? What's that? Ohhhh you mean those sucker.. err... EQ1 players whose memories and stories we exploite... err.. "shared"... to build up the "nostalgia" factor for our EQN release? Yeah, we really laid that on thick, didn't we? We expect it should really help with the $$$.
They (Smedley in particular) have made outright promises to their community in the past, only to backtrack on them when it was no longer "financially advantageous" to them. For example, guaranteeing they would never implement RMT type systems into any current games (then EQ2, EQ1, etc), claiming that they understood that it wouldn't be right for those games. The moment they saw F2P/Cash Shops taking off, that whole view changed. Within months, EQ2, then EQ1 went F2P with cash shops.
In advance of that change, Smed was out there stating how F2P was the future, and that SWTOR would be the last AAA MMO with a sub. Many, including myself, saw through it and said he was wrong... and he was.
All of a sudden, they realize there's still $$$ to be made in subs, so they start pushing subs again, with their rebranded Station Pass setup.
You can pretty much infer what SOE's next big move is just based on whatever nonsense Smedley's pushing at the moment.
I don't believe a damn thing they say. If any company has ever been consistently deserving of extreme cynicism... it's SOE.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
To Battlerock:
I don't think he was unprofessional at all. Why can't he express how he feels? Is there something wrong with that? If people want to know why he left, now they do! Problem solved.
I agree with grimal. He WAS very polite. He could have burned some bridges, but he didn't.
He never said the remaining faculty doesn't care what the community wants. You invented that from what he said.
What aren't people allowed to say "I like the color blue" without it having some hidden, evil meaning. How about taking the statement exactly as it was stated?
I really wish people would stop reading into things and making problems out of nothing.
OMG, to the OP, wow. You sound like a sheep. What if Bill Gates thought this way? What about Zuckerman? What about any of the ULTRA-successful pioneers that did things the way THEY wanted? You would have never heard of any of these people if they ducked their head down and "fell in line".
I rarely see anyone make it big or make a name for themselves by kissing their bosses ass. I worked at a large, well known software firm that in one dept, *still* has a complete HACK of a manager. His lack of knowledge, mindless devotion to kissing the uppers asses, DESTROYED the product. Complaints about the product in the site's forums went on and on. I fought against the grain for the CUSTOMER and eventually, like Omeed, I gave up and resigned, and I never, ever looked back. Best decision I ever made.
Your suggestions is basically saying that if your captain is aiming for an iceberg, you should support him and go down with the ship. That's idiotic.
I've been in a similar situation and absolutely agree, if you have major differences in opinion with the direction the company is heading you absolutely owe it to yourself to change the situation by finding a new job or other way of earning income.
Granted it's not easy to just quit and find a new job, due to bills and other commitments, but I've been in a similar situation twice as the post above and it worked out for the best in the long run.
I hope EQN will be a great game and at least intend to try the beta to see for myself. It is sad to see Omeed go however.