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EQN and my rambling thoughts on MMO's
krulux
Member Posts: 229
Hey folks. I dropped in and read a few dozen posts today. I'm glad to see the MMORPG crowd is still in rare form. I've been away for awhile... but still keep EQN on the back burner in my thoughts.
Ever since I heard they were making a new Everquest, I've had mixed emotions that swing from fanboy to hater and all places in between. I did buy the trailblazer pack and have goofed around in Landmark a bit. I'm impressed a bit by the capability of the engine - but have to say, I'm not a fan of the hazy mist look. Drab it is.
So now. EQN. Will it work for me? Probably for a few weeks. I do hope it is fantastic and we get play it for years. I'm hoping Storybricks and the emergent AI can deliver as game changers. But... lately, can't put my finger on it, I don't think it's shaping up to be what I want. But at the same time... I'm beginning to question and think what I want may not be obtainable from any MMO's based on the direction of the past few years, and I'm sad to say even any old games at this point.
Here's why. Like a good number of you MMORPG old timers I've been around since the beginning off computer gaming. I won't go into details, there are plenty of my past posts for that, but it's fair to say I've seen the best and worst of what the MMO has to offer. Well as so often happens when I start thinking of the past.. I get nostalgic. I remember the old times, the first time I played in EQ. I remember all of the good times. Rose colored glasses etc.. etc.
Well this last time it happened, I got the feeling to play AC again. I also tried an emu version of EQ and even SWG emu (that was painful). But here's the thing. I had a little fun with each for a few days, saw more than a few people playing with the same aspirations as me... even took a new toon in AC to level 90ish... but after a week, the magic of nostalgia was stale. These games were not so much fun anymore and gasp.. O.o they were boring! They were much better in my memory than in reality.
Would a shiny new coat of graphics add some longevity to the old games and their mechanics? Sure... but still. I'm beginning to think maybe it's not the MMO genre but me as an old gamer. What I think I want is the feeling of playing something new again. Playing something all my friends are playing. Playing something that is going to be big, not big in numbers like WoW, but big in the sense like how EQ shaped all future MMO's way back in 1999.
Ultimately, for me at least, I think the only thing that will fix the MMO genre will be the game that can take us in a new direction, not the same old mechanics with a new coat of paint. It may not even be an MMO that does it... it could be something such as VR or some other uninvented tech, and it may be years before we see it happen.
Anyway, to end this mess of a post. I'm sad to admit that I think the MMO genre, especially as remembered from days past, is dying a slow and pitiful death. We wiped, pulled to many. No rez for us. Goodbye.
Oh.. cya in EQN. I'll be there and hoping it can deliver. /sigh
Comments
Pretty much where I'm at.
Been there, done that. I have no wish to go back in time. I adapt and move forward with wherever the road and market is going. I'll never have my dream game and I'm glad, because I'd be playing it alone.
Lots of things have worked and failed for me. Don't wish to rehash any of it. Give me "new" things to experience to make new memories that 20 years from now I can go "back in 2014, before we had VR suits, we had to type on keyboards and use this mouse thing to wave a pointer around..."
Those that are unable or willing to move forward will never be satisfied and it is unfortunate.
Like always, haters will end up loving whatever game is in question and fanbois will end up calling foul and storming off to find the next big thing. Cycle never ends.
A very poignant post OP and I'm in the same boat. I have countless MMOs on my drives and I don't have the urge to play any of them more than a week or two... In rotation
. I am certain I want to play MMOs. I like having others around even if I can't always group because it's a living world. I also know deep down MMOs are meant as an "over time" hobby but cannot always commit, an I know it.
When reading your post I had the image of a "small world" boat ride. When you are young you may think these are all people. Everything is so alive and you get swept away in the scene. However, as you get older and experience the ride over and over, you notice things. The people always move the same way. You notice service doors in the walls that are supposed to be sky. A service tech has the king of England half taken apart repairing an arm.
Instead of mentally filling in parts of those MMO worlds, like we did when we first played them, we now see the wizard. We've seen them for a while and are now on a first name basis. We know, and have seen, too much.
So I agree, the mechanics need to change drastically to get us out of the lull. I'm sure the change will be irrevocable to some and that stinks. I believe it must be done though and if it's done well, people will eventually play it... maybe even like it. There are at the same time "must haves" that need to be there as to not repeat the same MMO trends, like adequate difficulty and an emphasis on needing others.
I think the genre we once embraced is now a minority on what the gaming companies are targeting.. Every game I have played for the past 10 years has turned out to be a "race" to where? The market seems to be your arcade action players, and that market has always been about fast paced hack and slash, which can only lead to the end quicker.. The role playing genre hasn't grown that much in size to get the love it desires.. I want food and drink to matter, I want player crafting to matter.. I want weight and stamina to matter.. I want mana management to matter.. I miss the training of skills like , "You have become better at XYZ (76)"..
Today's gamers are just spoiled.. and impatient, so it's no wonder games today struggle to maintain customers for a lengthy time.. Over the years, we've all heard the wishes of the community for fast instant travel, fast leveling to end, solo ability, balance this or balance that.. access access and more access.. Well.. as they say.. "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it".. Now what?
Good responses so far. No doubt many of us are getting burned out.. or at least burned out on what's been offered for the past few years. I don't really blame the gaming businesses for wanting to sell the most product to as many people as possible... it just makes sense for them. But from my pov - it's all becoming a little tired. Maybe I need a new hobby besides MMO gaming.
I do often wonder what kind of game I'd build it I had the budget and a team to build it. Would anyone else like it? I'd like to think they would. I still get excited thinking about this sometimes and having a running thought that if I ever hit a big lottery, I'd fund a small company to build "my" MMO.
Speaking on funding. I was a bit excited when the whole crowd-funded games started popping up. I got behind Star Citizen and Camelot Unchained with a few hundred bucks, more than I would ever spend on initial purchase and subbing for a couple of years. Now that some time has passed, I get the feeling neither will deliver on what's been promised or at least what's been hyped by my own thoughts on either game... but that's a whole different topic
"Youre in our world now!"
I still think the reason we are all so jaded with MMO's has less to do with the games and more to do with the MMO community itself.
Back then we were all excited just to be able to play a game with other people! Thats what made all those early MMO's seem so cool. We would have played anything and had fun, just because we were all enjoying it together and it was new.
But now the average gamer is more concerned about themselves, and powerleveling and being the best and to hell with the rest, etc. etc.
We aren't playing a games for fun anymore, we are competing against our fellow players and soloing through everything we can get our hands on.
Sadly I think, that unless gamers can get back to looking at MMO's as fun places to find friends and spend time playing together, then this is as good as it gets from here.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I believe your sentiments are a big part of the problem along with the "been there, done that" feeling we get from these games now.
A new game to capture our imaginations is really going to have to be something special. And that is going to be no easy feat for the developer's.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Agree with Kano, I'm finding ArcheAge is (somewhat) taking me back a bit to that fundamental "this is a new experience" feeling which I haven't had in an MMO in a long time. At least, it's already different enough (and I'm still just leveling through PvE) that I'm having to make adjustments in the way I think and play while in ArcheAge. And that, as they say, is Good Thing.
Having said that, I also have to echo the OP and others here who argue that both the old time gamers (those of us who started a while back) and the community experience itself has changed. I too have a group of MMOs installed and have difficulty staying with one, which was never a problem with my first MMO. Well, that was EQ2 back in 2004, so I don't have the credentials of the original EQ players, but still.
I thought for a while that at least some of the new MMOs were at least trying to change this: GW2. And to be honest I love that game to pieces, obviously there are many out there who either hate it or have just discarded it. Once I reached a certain point though, I hit the burnout wall and that was it for a while.
It does seem we are at the mercy of a solution that we don't have and can't see yet. Some new technology or fundamentally different way of gaming. Until then, I often go to my Steam library and try to work through THAT collection (200+ games which I probably can't finish in this lifetime.)
No complaints here really, just waiting. And well, ArcheAge I think. We'll all have to see what EQN does. And...dang. What we need is holodecks! (sigh)
I disagree.. I think it's very easy to create and design a game that can re-capture our imaginations and thrill of RPG'ing.. But to do so would require devs to change their philosophy on what is a profitable game. To me the first step to re-capture is to make sure the game mechanics focus on community unification.. GOOD BYE PVP & Esport.. As long as games keep designing themselves as I or We are better then You endorsing players/groups to showcase their "betterment", we are going to continue to fight amongst ourselves getting nowhere..
I desire a game that unifies a community to combat a common foe (The Developers) Anyone remember Sleeper's Tomb? lol WoW's Lich King should of been the final battle of that expansion that focused on community (the players) against the dev team.. I would of LOVED it if the battle to take him down along with his army of minions was a open world communal battle requiring a 100 or more of the best in a zone wide slugfest.. It could of been epic..
edit: but instead the fight was just another instance of scripted dance moves.. Zzzzzzz
I disagree 100% with this. Almost every MMO over the past 10 years has added something to push MMOs. WoW brought us quest leveling. Another brought us public questing. No one has taken MMOs for a left turn but going back to 1999 and the systems we have now in MMOs should blow anyone away. Some I would have never guessed to see. EQN is pushing that border just as hard. Seasons where NPC interact with them. AI that has NPC reacting to player interaction without scripting. Same with the world, its a set NPC free on the world with a set of rules and see what happens. No game as of yet from server to server will look as different then EQN. No MMO can boost of a 100% destructible world. These few things a lone make them the for runner for taking MMOs into the next step. Will they pull it off? We will see, are they trying to take the next step? Yes they are.
Yeah an MMO that is a new direction or has a new feature comes out several times a year. EQNext is trying to use a shotgun approach of new features, which sounded good a year ago but looks like a mish mash of poorly-married features as of SOE Live 2014. They should have gone with less change and just tried to make a better game. EQNext should be called EQChange for change's sake.
Graphics and style: Replaced
Lore: Replaced
Classes: Replaced
Combat: Replaced and not improved upon (which is saying a lot because EQ2 combat was lame imo)
Races: Up in the Air, who knows what will be in and what it will look like (horns on drow, etc.)
Geography: Replaced
Trinity: Dissolved and replaced with GW2/MOBA frenetic movement button pounding combined with mouselook for Near-FPS feel
Memories: Desecrated by insistence of the deluded that EQN is EQ at all
Consolation Prizes: AI, Building Game sort of added to it (You will be able to build and destroy only where it doesn't have any meaning or impact, and it melts back together pretty fast. Mining in Landmark is like digging a Jello tunnel, it closes up behind you after a bit)
SOE has basically NGE'd another game, they just did it between versions this time. They should have just made a new game and left the EQ off. The one thing that should have changed, didn't.
Yes, EQ was amazing, and interacting with other players became an essential part of that.
You nailed it. Exactly right.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Didn't work.
We've seen the same formulas over and over, changing one or two aspects isn't enough. What EQN seems to be, because we haven't seen all the parts together, works together. It may be drastically different than what is out there but that doesn't make it bad.
All the things that make an MMO will be there and look to offer a new experience. Something that most, if not all, MMOs of the last 10 years can't claim.
I'm willing to meet you half way on this and say that several sizeable systems and philosophies could have been changed for the effect that you are describing. I also will stipulate that underwhelming efforts have failed when they change/innovate like 2 features.
But I think they just went too far. They Probably had a rare moment when they were greenlighted for everything and decided to throw in every brainstormed idea that sounded good.
They probably did a deconstruction model and just started tossing things out and replacing with the converse idea.
Along the way though they put too many things in, and sacrificed the EQ DNA to make this amoeba of a game that feels more like an experiment than anything else.
And whoever sold the idea to the team of making those girly Disney graphics should just be outright fired.
Even with the Beauty and the Beast look, it would have been ok if they hadn't opened the belly of EQ and let its blood pour out for the sake of this new thing. EQ was just one more thing that they glommed on to make it palatable as a project.
-The result will be something that has building, but just barely...
-Something that has action combat, but is supposed to work like an MMORPG...
-A game that looks bad compared to its contemporaries due to voxel (which as I said won't be anywhere near as utilized as it is in landmark, where the building and shaping only has any meaning on player plots)
-An alternate timeline, cosmology/mythology, geography, and class/race histories, and appearances of everything that do not match Everquest styles (How is this EQ again?)
-A community round table which should actually be called the community round file. This was a clever bit on their part, sort of the thermostat not connected to anything so people felt like they had some control.
-An AI system that sounds great but could also end up functioning very much like traditional scripts, while also being susceptible to errors that cause erratic and glitched actions. This is something that may be shown at SOE Live 2016 I guess, the Storybricks system in game with Orcs that are populated into world and have the hotfix that stopped them from chasing each other in circles.
-A class system that is universal and allows your own builds within a four button combo. Hmm Defense, Defense, Utility, Offense: I'm a fucking Paladin ! The vocabulary of actions is vast, but you only get to speak in incomplete sentence fragments.
-Combat that looks to be the movement equivalent of the fireball attacks of Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Trinity was replaced with tech flash teleports and superspeed. Once you add double jumping to the mix I guess you have something the City of Heroes or Dragon Ball Z crowd could appreciate, only they would probably like more frames of animation. You can be a healer and a "Tankish" type by calling yourself that, but the GW2 DPS & Constant Random Movement recipe was the inspiration for EQN, so don't hold your breath. You will be a DPSer. You want the slightly hearty DPSer or the Slightly Buffy/Healy DPSer, or the just plain DPS DPSer?
Everyone can be every fucking class in the game so why kill the trinity? They said they didn't want anyone to have to wait for a tank, but you press a button and become a tank as long as you talked to the warrior guy on the road, etc. They just mashed features form their meeting board together. They could have kept Trinity and allowed dynamic classes, or Kill Trinity and make standard classes so that characters are at least something more static and have continuity within the life of the toon. The second option is weak because people are indecisive, or maybe they don't roll alts, so they just mashed it all together for avatar mush.
I respect that you have personal preference on objective things so I won't comment on those by saying "well... I like it" as it doesn't progress anything. Preferences for things like graphic style and combat targeting can be polarizing but not right or wrong by themselves. I'm not being sarcastic in saying that you very colorfully described how you feel these changes have effected your opinion of EQN. In the end though they are still your opinions, not facts.
What can be reasonably discussed is how some of the systems fit within the game. For example, I don't see how action combat disqualifies a game from being an MMORPG. Is it because traditional MMORPGs have been tab target? I would disagree as it still has all the same elements, just a different method of skill delivery. In fact, I would argue that because the player takes a more precise role in the combat system when it is reticle based that it could be considered more RPG than tab targeting. The bunny hopping is annoying of course but these things have already been tagged for adjustment, both by energy consumption and cool downs. I certainly hope so lol.
The voxel world may seem useless to some but even if you take building out of the equation having an actual 3D game world is very important IMO. You don't just find respawning copper nodes on the ground... you dig into copper veins in caves or the side of a hill. Aside from that NPCs will also be gathering resources in whatever need is driving them at the time. The art aesthetics, to some, have been seen as a sacrifice for the voxel world but being a "solid" world with hidden spaces, caves, etc. is worth it IMO.
I'm a bit confused on your opinion of the class/ability system SoE has described. They are only allowing the last four categorized abilities to be modified so there is still unique feels to the classes, allowing them to have roles. If they allowed all of the abilities to be customized then that could be more muddled. I'll admit that I'm more a fan of allowing freedom of weapons, armor and class systems but I understand why they went the route they did. Finding and earning the 40 (at launch) classes is part of the meta game. This isn't as easy as just talking to the Warrior trainer. There will be NPC faction standing involved as well as being lucky (allegedly tm).
Assuming you can hot swap between the two weapon sets your current class has that's a total of 12 abilities at one time. This seems more than adequate enough to keep your eyes on the action and not on your UI, as the devs have stated is the intention. There looks to be roles still but the methods seem to move away from the traditional trinity. Instead every class is designed for damage but also Tank, Healing and CC. This may be argued by traditionalists because the "tanking" does not rely on taunt mechanics but if my goal is to keep baddies away from my party then I've done my job, right? Same for classes like the Cleric. If my actions can heal HP or shields then I can say I'm a healer even if I'm doing damage to enemies at the same time. In fact, doubling effects means I can get more out of my 12 abilities than if my damage ability and healing ability were separate.
To me the fact a player can switch between classes is a plus. Why be forced to juggle alts because your class is hardwired? You can only be one class at a time anyhow. If an MMO is meant to be played over a long period of time how much sense does it make to make that concrete commitment to a class? IMO it doesn't make sense and I'm glad that EQN is allowing players to spice things up by switching between classes and roles. They're also making the process part of the adventure and reason to play the game via class acquisition.
Eg A common suite of games
Eg Player trading of virtual assets as per 2nd Life
Eg Storybricks and Voxel Farm and Forgelight
Etc. They have a chance and probably a good reason Titan got canned apart from Destiny.
That said it's just not for me. I'm too averse to big publishers and non-Western publishers: It's too remote and commercial; prefer a niche product with a niche community for mmorpg.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Welcome to my friends list; you say some profound ish for a guy who's been here five months. Late bloomer? My compliments. And I think the blurb, above, is the best description of EQN to date.
Regarding class changing on-the-fly, is that real? If so, this no longer belongs in the realm of RPG. A role playing game requires that you pick a role. Someone think up a new acronym, please.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The method of switching between classes in EQN has never been addressed by the developers. Comments about it thus far have been mere speculation.
Regarding it not being an RPG I'm not sure what you mean. One can assume that the switching would have to be done outside of combat, at the very least. In an MMO that has class swithing at what point does it lose the RPG bit in your opinion? Where might that leave skill based games? IMO an RPG means playing the role of a fictional character. If that fictional character can learn powers outside of the class chosen at character select then so be it. I don't think that changes its designation.
Dungeons and Dragons is a fantastic aspect of the RPG genre but I don't think I makes all the rules.
Thank you for this response It's nice to be able to discuss this topic even though I have very negative feelings about the game. I also want to say that I hope that I am very wrong about everything when it comes to EQNext, so that you and other people who will play it will have a great game.
I see what you are saying about the switching of classes, it being sort of a zero-sum thing in the end, but like so may of these mechanics it really does work out to feel. Some people point to inconvenience as a bad tool to use, but in this case I think that by making everyone able to access every class without even having to talk to a class respect NPC means that the Avatar is even further removed from something that has an identity or a form, and is basically just an ability storage box. When you are classified into professions the avatar at least has some dedicated utility. My point in bringing that up though was why did the Trinity have to go if you can just switch classes?
And I know that the class acquisition system is supposed to be a big adventure in itself, but with the casual/easy mode, don't confuse anyone attitude that they are taking I imagine only a small percentage of the classes will be hard to obtain. It's definitely the coolest way to do this idea, and I give them that, but the suspicion I have is that it will be tuned wrong.
Digging for veins is much better than hitting nodes on the surface, but the world heals too fast, and with some areas being verboten to digging/building/ and even damage effects in some cases the effect is going to be muted. EQNext won't be a fully destructible world, it will be a destructible world in areas that are wilderness and have been flagged as inconsequential wilderness. If I'm wrong and someone knocks down a house in Halas during a battle I will be amazed and happy, but I don't think that will happen. You will be able to bust the floor out in the ancient ruins of Dorgramort, or in the wide open, but not anywhere else. The novelty will wear off fast as it did in Landmark.
Which means that they will have changed the look of the game to the Cartoon Style for a system that in the end isn't used all that much. I've done some serious digging in Landmark and I can tell you that a port to the surface will be used far, far more than anyone deciding to dig their way out of a dungeon.
I'm assuming that you have utilized the combat as it appears in Landmark. I figure that the combat in Landmark is like the infant form of the combat in EQN, lacking the 8 buttons and the class-based abilities. I will even give them that some better options for targeting will be available for EQN vs. the mouselook mode for Landmark.
Given what is available to know and see so far I don't get how this will be something that is not just an action game used to resolve MMORPG situations. It's like the battle part of EQNext is a minigame where you change modes from your normal interaction with the character to now become Yoda from Attack of the Clones. The spell users were given crazy abilities with flashy graphics, and so the physically driven characters had to be upped to that ante, so you have things like the whirlwind attack and the character swinging his sword like a child in a fit while glowing flashes and lines erupt from his blade. Again, the battle in the game feels disjointed and silly: double jumping, teleporting, whirlwinds, and several other X-men powers.
That's another reason why I don't think they helped themselves by using Everquest, the movement, look, and feel of all this stuff is more like fantasy super heroes than anything else.
I agree with a lot of this. I agree 100% that in order to switch a class it should be via a temple or rogue hideout so it makes sense. It would also have people seek more group mates first because they may not want to travel to switch to another role. Will it be that way? I have my doubts but I still like the idea of 40 distinct classes that must be found and earned. With EQN changing so many aspects there has to be tradeoffs, which is natural given that it is a "different" type of MMO. As someone who likes to play other roles but would rather not start from scratch I really like the tradeoff.
My attitudes toward the classes assumes there are distinct roles between them. I think there will be and the footage of abilities thus far has pointed to that. Will it be easy though? That is a big question and the answers the devs have given indicate it doesn't have to be so I hope it's not. They've all been in the "game" as developers and gamers long enough to see that trivial content gets old fast. There will of course be solo content but hopefully even that is tricky enough to make it worth the players time.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the voxel world. I certainly would have played an EQ3 that looked like PS2 but the look EQN has does not bother me. Even if it did I'd have a hard time saying that tradeoff for the voxel world was not worth it. You are correct that there will be places that can't be destroyed but that is to be expected so vandalism doesn't happen. I think the first time players are able to bust through the wall of an enemy NPC fortress during a Rallying Call the benefit will be seen. That and the building of outposts/towns/cities in increments. We do know already that the first RC will be building Qeynos up from a shanty town to something sizable. Being able to do that in game will be great. Even if the construction/demolition of entities wasn't there, the fact that you can go out and mine the world for materials to craft would be enough for me. It's that "feel" that a voxel world has. Some evenings that's all I do in Landmark, gather materials.
I have experienced the combat system and it's okay as is. I don't like the over the shoulder look when in close third person though I think I could get used to it. They may yet come up with a "lock" mode but I hope the projectiles aren't locked on. Once fired it should not change course to follow the target IMO. This is another area I am glad SoE looks to change but understand some will vehemently disagree. I think it adds another level of avatar interaction. It takes out the middle man and puts the player in direct control of their character. When that is also combined with class abilities it can IMO go very far in brining life back into combat. I was very impressed by how abilities effect the world, changing ground into ice for example, and if players were on ice another ability would freeze them in place. To have that kind of precision there needs to be reticle combat IMO.
I see how the combat looks disjointed because of all the hopping and gliding. It bothers me a great, great deal as well. I remember thinking that watching the '13 Live broadcast lol. I do like the parkor animations they have though. Hanging on ledges or going into a dive if water is below you when jumping shows an attention to detail. I'm not a big fan of the superhero stuff though (good analogy). The one saving grace, even with the early system, is that there are not just CDs for abilities but energy use. These can be modified so that the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon combat is kept to a minimum. In fact, energy consumption can also prohibit the mass spamming of the players abilities too. This is something missing from GW2 and may have contributed to its 'zergy" nature. Having to think a few abilities ahead so you don't get energy starved when you really need that teleport would be a great thing, not just hitting the next ability off CD.
Believe it or not I have a lot of concerns about how EQN will turn out. These are the main ones:
General difficulty (should be challenging)
% of group content, outside of dungeons (should be high)
Strong roles and abilities that matter (I would love to tank in a CC manner rather than taunt)
Performance
I'm an optimist by nature so until I see info to verify something is not what I was hoping for I'll take what is known and go from there. This is supposed to be the year of EQN information so the more that officially comes out the more we can comment on it... and comment I shall. I may, at some point, ask someone for an extra pitchfork but for now I'm really excited.
This is what EQN should have remained looking like...
http://eq2wire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/20110708-092438.jpg
And
http://www.eqnextfans.com/screenshots/fanfaire2010/49460-freeport-concept-art
Not this
http://i.imgur.com/wOfsFXR.gif
/facepalm