I think the focus here is wrong, top tier heroic raising is as hard as its ever been, the issue is as above, the speed levelling plus the broken state of their 5 man instances - where is that hard as nails 5 man that small groups can enjoy? From the get go the 5 man content was so undertuned people were aoe clearing in blues, and it got worse from there.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Idk, I guess I just don't understand, if you want hard content, wouldn't you want hard content at max level where it can be easily balanced for everybody? If you want challenge in 5 mans go do it at the very start, go try WoD beta dungeons, it's a wipe fest, go try LFR the day the new raids open up, go do challenge modes when they're new, try normal and heroic raids when they're new.
Saying the reason you don't play because leveling isn't hard, is just, a poor excuse imo, it has to be another issue that you have with the game entirely.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
I didn't say that. I said 5 man was a joke from the very start and it had 0 scaling to cope with the flood of upgrades peeps got. If WOD had addressed that then well done, although historically they will undertuned it and again with the speed if upgrades it will again become meaningless to anyone who actually enjoys using skill in a 5 man (e.g shock horror cc?)
Re levelling it's prettying obvious even to a child that creating a ton of quality levelling content but then making the levelling process so fast it's done in a week or so is a waste.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Idk, I guess I just don't understand, if you want hard content, wouldn't you want hard content at max level where it can be easily balanced for everybody? If you want challenge in 5 mans go do it at the very start, go try WoD beta dungeons, it's a wipe fest, go try LFR the day the new raids open up, go do challenge modes when they're new, try normal and heroic raids when they're new.
Saying the reason you don't play because leveling isn't hard, is just, a poor excuse imo, it has to be another issue that you have with the game entirely.
Not really. While it is the main reason I quit years ago, it isn't the sole reason. This is a playstyle for some of us. I agree with the poster above you that leveling with my wife was also one of the highlight experiences in WoW. We were both altoholics and loved leveling and messing around with the different specs offered for each class. The day I started running around naked wielding a white weapon and pulling packs of mobs with no issues was the day I asked myself what the point was. I agree with you that raiding isn't as easy as some are claiming and was a lot of fun. But I spent way more time doing other things and it was there that the game started to show just how dumbed down the game was becoming. Couple that with the homogenization of the classes and I have not looked back since early cata.
WoW has been one of the few games that has had staying power and I hold out hope that something worthwhile can pull me back in. I didn't come back for MoP because from what I witnessed, it was more of the same and my old guildies were facerolling dungeons without any problems.
Originally posted by Abdar They did add a 'Mythical' tier to raiding as well, whatever that means. Again, the OP should have expanded on what they felt was so easy that the game needs to fix.
Technically, they're not adding a new tier, but renamed them.
Flex raids are now called normal.
Normal raids are now called HC
Mythic is basically resized HC raids.
So unless you are a top tier raider, it's been dumbed down and made easier.
Haha. your last sentence just makes no sense. So they renamed the names of the three different types of raiding. So that means it's dumbed down and made easier? Your logic is brilliant and is certainly NOT dumb.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I think a lot of people are confusing the story theme of the game with some attempt by Blizzard at making the game more challenging. The pandas are gone and the war story is back, but that's just a story. It might "feel" more hardcore because there's a war in the story now instead of pandas and gardening, but Blizzard has never announced that they're hiking up the difficulty of the game to make it more challenging.
Originally posted by Bladestrom I didn't say that. I said 5 man was a joke from the very start and it had 0 scaling to cope with the flood of upgrades peeps got. If WOD had addressed that then well done, although historically they will undertuned it and again with the speed if upgrades it will again become meaningless to anyone who actually enjoys using skill in a 5 man (e.g shock horror cc?)
Re levelling it's prettying obvious even to a child that creating a ton of quality levelling content but then making the levelling process so fast it's done in a week or so is a waste.
Regular 5 man dungeons are meaningless, they're for leveling, it's not a raid. Even heroic 5 man dungeons are only good for the first few weeks until raids release, that's how every dungeon every expansion has been like. If you enjoy 5 mans, then do the challenge mode dungeons like I said, that's the closest to a 5 man raiding experience as you can get without actually raiding, just because there's an easy mode version of dungeons for leveling doesn't mean that's the point you focus on when you play, why wouldn't you touch challenge modes if you enjoy, you know, a challenge?
I don't really have anything for your leveling point, I personally have 8 level 90s and 1 level 85 and I switch between them each xpac playing the one's that I have more fun with depending on the class mechanic changes at the time, if leveling was slow I probably wouldn't be playing to this day, because the first character I leveled (a DK) almost made me delete the game lol.
Originally posted by FlawSGI
Originally posted by OhhPaigey
Idk, I guess I just don't understand, if you want hard content, wouldn't you want hard content at max level where it can be easily balanced for everybody? If you want challenge in 5 mans go do it at the very start, go try WoD beta dungeons, it's a wipe fest, go try LFR the day the new raids open up, go do challenge modes when they're new, try normal and heroic raids when they're new.
Saying the reason you don't play because leveling isn't hard, is just, a poor excuse imo, it has to be another issue that you have with the game entirely.
Not really. While it is the main reason I quit years ago, it isn't the sole reason. This is a playstyle for some of us. I agree with the poster above you that leveling with my wife was also one of the highlight experiences in WoW. We were both altoholics and loved leveling and messing around with the different specs offered for each class. The day I started running around naked wielding a white weapon and pulling packs of mobs with no issues was the day I asked myself what the point was. I agree with you that raiding isn't as easy as some are claiming and was a lot of fun. But I spent way more time doing other things and it was there that the game started to show just how dumbed down the game was becoming. Couple that with the homogenization of the classes and I have not looked back since early cata.
WoW has been one of the few games that has had staying power and I hold out hope that something worthwhile can pull me back in. I didn't come back for MoP because from what I witnessed, it was more of the same and my old guildies were facerolling dungeons without any problems.
I'm not really repeating myself again, the game isn't dumbed down, it's only dumbed down if you dumb it down yourself and don't bother doing any end game. The challenge isn't leveling to max level, the challenge isn't from doing some normal/heroic 5 man dungeons, the challenge isn't from doing LFR (even though it is a complete wipe fest for the first few months of a raid releasing and Blizz has to NERF the raid over and over because players aren't ready, and don't want a challenge, they want gear).
Again, I find it hard to believe you quit because of leveling was too easy, if you were enjoying the game and wanted a "challenge" like everybody here apparently wants, you would've raided.
Not really sure what you mean about the classes either. Maybe 1 spec compared to another spec is fairly similar, I have 183 days played on my Balance Druid and the closest similar spec is Shadow Priest which has been my main since I got 14/14H, and besides knowing basic DoTing mechanics I've had to learn it from scratch.
Overall all classes and specs are different and perform well off of completely different mechanics than the other, but again, it sounded like you didn't raid, so you were probably able to get away with ignoring mechanics and just putting DoTs/HoTs up and doing fine.
There's plenty more I could link too, scroll down until you find Siege of Orgrimmar, people begged Blizzard to nerf LFR because it was WAY TOO challenging, it was taking 4-5+ hours to clear a single wing, and sometimes groups just disbanding. Where were you for any of that? Not playing the game? Oh..
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
What they should have done is this. Normal mode dungeon of place A. Hard mode dungeon of place B. Heroic Mode dungeon of place C. Mythic mode dungeon of place D. You progress to new dungeons, you don't merely flip a switch in the same damn dungeon. Then there would be a purpose to progressing because the content would change. As it stands now, it's the same damn place with different difficulties.
You want to see all the content? Stop farming the same damn dungeon for all eternity. Yeah, it's gonna get harder and harder. That's called progression with a purpose. So what if not everyone gets to see it. They have the same opportunity as everyone else. They choose or choose not to do it. Simple as that.
Can't complain about a lack of new content when there is new content at a harder difficulty just waiting for you to do it.
If players leave in droves because they can't do Place B... then apparently outside of dungeons, there's nothing worth doing in the game. You can still go solo the nerfed dungeons for mounts like you been doing. Nerfs will still come, just like they always do. And the always do. Just unsub, wait for the nerfs, then resub. Simple.
Idk, I guess I just don't understand, if you want hard content, wouldn't you want hard content at max level where it can be easily balanced for everybody? If you want challenge in 5 mans go do it at the very start, go try WoD beta dungeons, it's a wipe fest, go try LFR the day the new raids open up, go do challenge modes when they're new, try normal and heroic raids when they're new.
Saying the reason you don't play because leveling isn't hard, is just, a poor excuse imo, it has to be another issue that you have with the game entirely.
Poor excuse? My wife and I love to play alts and level in wow. In vanilla we never even had a max character when TBC launched. The leveling game is where we enjoyed wow the most. We love to craft, pvp, pve as we level. The launch of Wotlk was the start of the end for us. This brought Aoe dungeon running, account gear, dumbing down of outdoor mobs, xserver with lfg to name a few.
We left during Cata and other than a return a few weeks ago with hope of WOD launch near that things might have change. The return lasted about a week as we realized they have gone as far to even dumb down the leveling content in the latest expansion. My level 85 Hunter could get aggro from a 85 npc and let him beat on him never going below 90% health. Who in their right mind at blizzard thinks that is fun? I guess some do more power to them.
Originally posted by Bladestrom I didn't say that. I said 5 man was a joke from the very start and it had 0 scaling to cope with the flood of upgrades peeps got. If WOD had addressed that then well done, although historically they will undertuned it and again with the speed if upgrades it will again become meaningless to anyone who actually enjoys using skill in a 5 man (e.g shock horror cc?)
Re levelling it's prettying obvious even to a child that creating a ton of quality levelling content but then making the levelling process so fast it's done in a week or so is a waste.
Regular 5 man dungeons are meaningless, they're for leveling, it's not a raid. Even heroic 5 man dungeons are only good for the first few weeks until raids release, that's how every dungeon every expansion has been like. If you enjoy 5 mans, then do the challenge mode dungeons like I said, that's the closest to a 5 man raiding experience as you can get without actually raiding, just because there's an easy mode version of dungeons for leveling doesn't mean that's the point you focus on when you play, why wouldn't you touch challenge modes if you enjoy, you know, a challenge?
I don't really have anything for your leveling point, I personally have 8 level 90s and 1 level 85 and I switch between them generally each xpac playing the one's that I have more fun with, if leveling was slow I probably wouldn't be playing to this day, because the first character I leveled (a DK) almost made me delete the game lol.
Idk, regular dungeons kept me very busy back in TBC, even though i played several hours a day. I played very casually, and was never interested in raiding. I barely made it to the heroics before WotLK was released.
The problem with current WoW is meaningless 'leveling content' and only the latest raid as 'a real and meaningful content'. There's no progression, and only stuff you ever look forward to is next patch, which makes everything else worthless once again.
Originally posted by Abdar They did add a 'Mythical' tier to raiding as well, whatever that means. Again, the OP should have expanded on what they felt was so easy that the game needs to fix.
Technically, they're not adding a new tier, but renamed them.
Flex raids are now called normal.
Normal raids are now called HC
Mythic is basically resized HC raids.
So unless you are a top tier raider, it's been dumbed down and made easier.
Haha. your last sentence just makes no sense. So they renamed the names of the three different types of raiding. So that means it's dumbed down and made easier? Your logic is brilliant and is certainly NOT dumb.
No he said UNLESS you're a top tier raider, so anything below Mystic (HC mode) and maybe HC mode (normal mode) has been dumbed down.
And imho he's right. things i think need to be looked at are, dungeons, hc dungeons, leveling content, elites, acquiring loot etc. Might not agree, but to me these areas need a looking at.
Originally posted by Bladestrom I didn't say that. I said 5 man was a joke from the very start and it had 0 scaling to cope with the flood of upgrades peeps got. If WOD had addressed that then well done, although historically they will undertuned it and again with the speed if upgrades it will again become meaningless to anyone who actually enjoys using skill in a 5 man (e.g shock horror cc?)
Re levelling it's prettying obvious even to a child that creating a ton of quality levelling content but then making the levelling process so fast it's done in a week or so is a waste.
Regular 5 man dungeons are meaningless, they're for leveling, it's not a raid. Even heroic 5 man dungeons are only good for the first few weeks until raids release, that's how every dungeon every expansion has been like. If you enjoy 5 mans, then do the challenge mode dungeons like I said, that's the closest to a 5 man raiding experience as you can get without actually raiding, just because there's an easy mode version of dungeons for leveling doesn't mean that's the point you focus on when you play, why wouldn't you touch challenge modes if you enjoy, you know, a challenge?
I don't really have anything for your leveling point, I personally have 8 level 90s and 1 level 85 and I switch between them generally each xpac playing the one's that I have more fun with, if leveling was slow I probably wouldn't be playing to this day, because the first character I leveled (a DK) almost made me delete the game lol.
Idk, regular dungeons kept me very busy back in TBC, even though i played several hours a day. I played very casually, and was never interested in raiding. I barely made it to the heroics before WotLK was released.
The problem with current WoW is meaningless 'leveling content' and only the latest raid as 'a real and meaningful content'. There's no progression, and only stuff you ever look forward to is next patch, which makes everything else worthless once again.
It's meaningless to me that's why I said that, I'm a nerdy heroic raider, but some people have fun running through them on different characters, getting the achievements, mounts, upgrades, xmog pieces, you can't complain that the game is too easy, then not do the "challenge mode" version of the dungeons, but say the normal version was easy, but then compare the game to 7 years ago, but then don't even bother doing new content when it's released, I mean, if you don't like the game fine, but it sounds like, from a lot of these posts, people are just attempting to find reasons why they don't like the game, when they really don't have a clue why they do.
Criticisms like: Weird art style, too much grind, it's P2P, I don't like the classes, I don't like raiding, I don't like leveling, I hate Blizzard, the PvP or PvE isn't fun enough, I don't like the community, it takes up too much time, these could be, while I'd disagree, valid reasons to dislike the game and not play, but saying the game is too easy or too dumbed down when you haven't even touched a raid that's been out for over a year and I doubt most people could clear even now, that's called being ignorant.
I mean even saying something like, the leveling is too easy, while it would strike as me as somebody who can't find a proper reason, I could respect that reason, but then I'd ask if you want challenge why wouldn't you raid or arena? But just throwing out blanket statements like the game is dumbed down isn't a proper reason at all.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
Well, I don't think it's easy; only levelling is easy; everything in WoW is homologe to all other MMORpg's out there. The magical formula for WoW never before seen success is the way it works, and I mean it works perfectly. And the magical formula includes some stereotypes that MMORPG players love the most. It's an epic game with and epic feeling, why should I lie? If you want it easy you find your way to make it easy, and if you are an Elitist, then this is the game for you, as you can become a truly Wise Man on everything.
I thinks WoD adds more grind but in an interesting way; it brings the Strategical Game to WoW, and this is not, by any way, a bad idea. WoW is getting more and more complex using simple patterns. That's a polished work. And that's why many and so many people play it; as they are in "their world".
I play EVE and maybe is the opposite, but I don't feel like being an enemy of WoW, as it has its own way making things, and many of my friends play it since Vanilla WoW.
I would return to my Home Guild if they allowed members to play more games and not to focus only in WoW. But even being things like that, I am still a member of the guild, and we are not in confrontation to each other.
Where's my answer? Yes, it will take challenge to WoW as it will incorporate new systems, which in the WoW-easy going style many people are aware of and ready to learn at full speed.
Idk, I guess I just don't understand, if you want hard content, wouldn't you want hard content at max level where it can be easily balanced for everybody? If you want challenge in 5 mans go do it at the very start, go try WoD beta dungeons, it's a wipe fest, go try LFR the day the new raids open up, go do challenge modes when they're new, try normal and heroic raids when they're new.
Saying the reason you don't play because leveling isn't hard, is just, a poor excuse imo, it has to be another issue that you have with the game entirely.
Not really. While it is the main reason I quit years ago, it isn't the sole reason. This is a playstyle for some of us. I agree with the poster above you that leveling with my wife was also one of the highlight experiences in WoW. We were both altoholics and loved leveling and messing around with the different specs offered for each class. The day I started running around naked wielding a white weapon and pulling packs of mobs with no issues was the day I asked myself what the point was. I agree with you that raiding isn't as easy as some are claiming and was a lot of fun. But I spent way more time doing other things and it was there that the game started to show just how dumbed down the game was becoming. Couple that with the homogenization of the classes and I have not looked back since early cata.
WoW has been one of the few games that has had staying power and I hold out hope that something worthwhile can pull me back in. I didn't come back for MoP because from what I witnessed, it was more of the same and my old guildies were facerolling dungeons without any problems.
I'm not really repeating myself again, the game isn't dumbed down, it's only dumbed down if you dumb it down yourself and don't bother doing any end game. The challenge isn't leveling to max level, the challenge isn't from doing some normal/heroic 5 man dungeons, the challenge isn't from doing LFR (even though it is a complete wipe fest for the first few months of a raid releasing and Blizz has to NERF the raid over and over because players aren't ready, and don't want a challenge, they want gear). If the game has not been dumbed down then explain why I used to have to actually somewhat pay attention when leveling and running dungeons, and towards the end of my time there I was able to faceroll dungeons and level naked wielding whites. I understand the real challenge is in raiding but that doesn't mean that the dumbing down of other content has no affect on other players.
Again, I find it hard to believe you quit because of leveling was too easy, if you were enjoying the game and wanted a "challenge" like everybody here apparently wants, you would've raided. I don't really care what you believe, but it is the main reason I and my wife quit and I have little reason to state otherwise. Also I stated I did raid, but it wasn't where I spent a majority of my time and if you take down the D-Fence a little and read you would see that. I agreed the raids were a challenge and you apparently skipped over that in your haste to call me a liar. BUT just because raiding is where the difficult content is does not excuse the fact that leveling and dungeons can be done while watching southpark on my alternate screen.
Not really sure what you mean about the classes either. Maybe 1 spec compared to another spec is fairly similar, I have 183 days played on my Balance Druid and the closest similar spec is Shadow Priest which has been my main since I got 14/14H, and besides knowing basic DoTing mechanics I've had to learn it from scratch. I'll elaborate since you didn't get my meaning. Back in the day before they butchered the classes and homogenized them, the roles and specs played a larger part in the feel of the game for me and certain specs did things differently and played differently. Towards the end, all my tanks felt the same and so did my healers. Shaman buffs for example were no longer exclusive and they started making the totem buffs available by other means. IMO raid mechanics watered down when certain classes no longer filled roles the way they used to and archetypes started blending. Once again just my opinion regarding the class butchery that is the talent trees now.
Overall all classes and specs are different and perform well off of completely different mechanics than the other, but again, it sounded like you didn't raid, so you were probably able to get away with ignoring mechanics and just putting DoTs/HoTs up and doing fine. Another defensive assumption with no merrit. I actually was a hard core raider and my favorite class to play was Holy Paladin crit healing on the main tank with some support elsewhere when needed. They have since completely changed the holy pally. I didn't say that the classes didn't perform, only that they used to have more depth and variety that lent the game longevity for me because I loved exploring the different specs. Hell I even leveled all 4 healers so that I could fill raid roles because the classes were more diverse. That changed during cata.
There's plenty more I could link too, scroll down until you find Siege of Orgrimmar, people begged Blizzard to nerf LFR because it was WAY TOO challenging, it was taking 4-5+ hours to clear a single wing, and sometimes groups just disbanding. Where were you for any of that? Not playing the game? Oh..
No need to attack and assume. I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours but you don't see me making assumptions about you and yours.
1) I answered this in this very thread I believe, the game has been made easier and more accessible to new players because people who have been playing for a long time are becoming bored, you not only have to cater to old players, but attract new players as well, making talent trees more understandable, squishing stats to make more sense, removing hit/exp caps, removing DoT snapshotting, haste breakpoints, an ability squish, there's no secret what they're going for, but like I said, it's only dumbed down if you want it to be dumbed down, if you don't want to raid or do any sort of high rated PvP, it's always going to be easy, and that's what players beg for, Blizzard releases LFR (the easiest mode of raids available) and people are wiping on it for 5+ hours and they have to nerf it every other day, look at the patch notes I linked.
2) K?
3) Not worth addressing again, there's actually a good bit of diversity.
4) Again, the classes are different, you said you were a heroic raider, have you done SoO? MV, HoF, ToEs? Anything from this expansion? Because I have, and people still switch characters because of a certain ability or mechanic that helps the raid. But now you also have, instead of long boring talent trees which the majority of people never changed, ever, and just copied from a guide on the internet, a proper talent tree that has the certain skill diversity you're talking about.
Tanks are not the same, DK is self healing, Prot Pally is self healing, Prot Warrior is mitigation, Brewmaster Monk is mitigation, Guardian Druid is mitigation and self healing.
Healers are not the same, Disc Priest is focused on making sure there's bubbles on everybody for big incoming spike damage, Resto Druids is mainly HoTs, Resto Shammy is more AoE instant healing, Holy Pally is more of a tank healer with little AoE healing, MW Monk is AoE with HoTs & instant heals.
Anyways, we can nit pick each others points all day, if you don't wanna play you'll always find a reason, and I'm not getting paid by Blizzard to bring people back to their game, but it sucks to see how misinformed a lot of people are when it comes to this, but really the internet in general.
If you don't like it, don't play, if you like it, play, if you want to leave criticism, whether it's about how your class sucks, or how the game sucks, at least do your research and make sure it's sort of valid at the very least, there's been so many posts here that are just flat out incorrect, like the new models not being able to be turned off, how the game is so easy, ect.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
1) I answered this in this very thread I believe, the game has been made easier and more accessible to new players because people who have been playing for a long time are becoming bored, you not only have to cater to old players, but attract new players as well, making talent trees more understandable, squishing stats to make more sense, removing hit/exp caps, removing DoT snapshotting, haste breakpoints, an ability squish, there's no secret what they're going for, but like I said, it's only dumbed down if you want it to be dumbed down, if you don't want to raid or do any sort of high rated PvP, it's always going to be easy, and that's what players beg for, Blizzard releases LFR (the easiest mode of raids available) and people are wiping on it for 5+ hours and they have to nerf it every other day, look at the patch notes I linked. And you are missing the point by justifying it. I understand why some things were done, but it doesn't change the fact that the content portion I personally like has been made mundane as hell. It's not only dumbed down if I want ti to be, it is dumbed down despite what I want.
2) K? There is no K? I provide examples to go along with why I left. Nothing more nothing less. You stated you couldn't believe anyone would leave for said reason and I provided examples of why I came to my conclusion rather than just baseless criticism.
3) Not worth addressing again, there's actually a good bit of diversity. It does to you, but in comparison to the past it has lessened and once again this is just a large part of the reason I left.
4) Again, the classes are different, you said you were a heroic raider, have you done SoO? MV, HoF, ToEs? Anything from this expansion? Because I have, and people still switch characters because of a certain ability or mechanic that helps the raid. But now you also have, instead of long boring talent trees which the majority of people never changed, ever, and just copied from a guide on the internet, a proper talent tree that has the certain skill diversity you're talking about. This will be my last response to you since you lack the patience to read my words before knee-jerking your responses. Of course I haven't done that content since I CLEARLY stated I left back in CATA because of the 2 reasons I provided. I never complained about the streamlined trees since I never experienced them. I only spoke on class diversity since most of them have been blended.
Tanks are not the same, DK is self healing, Prot Pally is self healing, Prot Warrior is mitigation, Brewmaster Monk is mitigation, Guardian Druid is mitigation and self healing. Back in the day, my war tank was a mobile beast and superior single target tank and fun to play while my prot pally was better at aoe tanking and add control. I loved that they felt different. Then they all became aoe tanks and well I can't explain my opinion any clearer.
Healers are not the same, Disc Priest is focused on making sure there's bubbles on everybody for big incoming spike damage, Resto Druids is mainly HoTs, Resto Shammy is more AoE instant healing, Holy Pally is more of a tank healer with little AoE healing, MW Monk is AoE with HoTs & instant heals.
Anyways, we can nit pick each others points all day, if you don't wanna play you'll always find a reason, and I'm not getting paid by Blizzard to bring people back to their game, but it sucks to see how misinformed a lot of people are when it comes to this, but really the internet in general. And yet another example of putting words in my mouth. I never said I didn't want to play. In fact I said I hope there is something to draw me back in because i loved the game in the past.
If you don't like it, don't play, if you like it, play, if you want to leave criticism, whether it's about how your class sucks, or how the game sucks, at least do your research and make sure it's sort of valid at the very least, there's been so many posts here that are just flat out incorrect, like the new models not being able to be turned off, how the game is so easy, ect. It has all been my opinion so it is valid and does not take research in the slightest. You stated nobody quits because leveling got too easy and I answered this point specifically since it was the main reason iI left while adding another big reason I left. I have since followed up with examples and elaborations and it has all been opinion. I never once stated that the raid content was too easy or that the game sucks, thats you attacking. I do feel that leveling and dungeon runs are a form of content and they have become easier after WoTLK.
With very few exceptions all big changes were done just in right way in Wow. And I plan to play Wow as long as there are expansions. Only reason numbers has decreased is there are so many other games as never before and for sure not even 3-5 years ago. Wow is no 1 with reason.
Originally posted by daltanious With very few exceptions all big changes were done just in right way in Wow. And I plan to play Wow as long as there are expansions. Only reason numbers has decreased is there are so many other games as never before and for sure not even 3-5 years ago. Wow is no 1 with reason.
A funny thing is my wife and I felt a lot of the changes were the wrong way. :P It may be a coincidence but since the peak of wow subs during early WOTLK they started to bleed subs. This is also the time that all the changes started that you say were the right way and I say the wrong.
The only thing that matters to my wife and I is we thought the changes were bad and left during the Cata expansion. You can see by this thread were not the only ones that thought this way.
Originally posted by daltanious With very few exceptions all big changes were done just in right way in Wow. And I plan to play Wow as long as there are expansions. Only reason numbers has decreased is there are so many other games as never before and for sure not even 3-5 years ago. Wow is no 1 with reason.
A funny thing is my wife and I felt a lot of the changes were the wrong way. :P It may be a coincidence but since the peak of wow subs during early WOTLK they started to bleed subs. This is also the time that all the changes started that you say were the right way and I say the wrong.
The only thing that matters to my wife and I is we thought the changes were bad and left during the Cata expansion. You can see by this thread were not the only ones that thought this way.
There were some interesting things that happened in WotLK. One being that the population surged and receded, and every time it hit 12-13 million they kept putting up a thread like it was new. A big problem was that all that massive population was spread unevenly. On my server the population was dead, I couldn't do anything despite raiding experience and professions. LFG came in to save the day, so I had something else to do.
At the end of WotLK, that was basically the conclusion of the actual Warcraft RTS storyline that brought everyone there to begin with. Blizzard had/has abandoned the RTS series and they paid for it starting in Cataclysm because nobody gave a shit about any of those characters once Arthas was dead. MoP should not have been made.
I will repeat: Mists of Pandaria shouldn't have been made. It was made because Pandarians are a pet hobby of one of the big wigs, and have been for a long time. They are not part of the western fantasy pantheon, they share too many characteristics with existing iconic western fantasy races like the Dwarves and the Elves that are already established, and marginalize them as a result. To double down on it the new class was made out to be a comical one that is directly tied to a race (Pandarians of course), and the whole expansion was centered around the new race - this after the noticeable ignorance of the Gilneans in the expansion they were introduced.
Oh and yeah, no fucking content being made starting in Cataclysm. I remember the ATROCIOUS year where there was just the 2 identical troll dungeons that you had to run over and over and over and over and they were super long and dragged out.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
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rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Idk, I guess I just don't understand, if you want hard content, wouldn't you want hard content at max level where it can be easily balanced for everybody? If you want challenge in 5 mans go do it at the very start, go try WoD beta dungeons, it's a wipe fest, go try LFR the day the new raids open up, go do challenge modes when they're new, try normal and heroic raids when they're new.
Saying the reason you don't play because leveling isn't hard, is just, a poor excuse imo, it has to be another issue that you have with the game entirely.
Re levelling it's prettying obvious even to a child that creating a ton of quality levelling content but then making the levelling process so fast it's done in a week or so is a waste.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Not really. While it is the main reason I quit years ago, it isn't the sole reason. This is a playstyle for some of us. I agree with the poster above you that leveling with my wife was also one of the highlight experiences in WoW. We were both altoholics and loved leveling and messing around with the different specs offered for each class. The day I started running around naked wielding a white weapon and pulling packs of mobs with no issues was the day I asked myself what the point was. I agree with you that raiding isn't as easy as some are claiming and was a lot of fun. But I spent way more time doing other things and it was there that the game started to show just how dumbed down the game was becoming. Couple that with the homogenization of the classes and I have not looked back since early cata.
WoW has been one of the few games that has had staying power and I hold out hope that something worthwhile can pull me back in. I didn't come back for MoP because from what I witnessed, it was more of the same and my old guildies were facerolling dungeons without any problems.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Haha. your last sentence just makes no sense. So they renamed the names of the three different types of raiding. So that means it's dumbed down and made easier? Your logic is brilliant and is certainly NOT dumb.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Regular 5 man dungeons are meaningless, they're for leveling, it's not a raid. Even heroic 5 man dungeons are only good for the first few weeks until raids release, that's how every dungeon every expansion has been like. If you enjoy 5 mans, then do the challenge mode dungeons like I said, that's the closest to a 5 man raiding experience as you can get without actually raiding, just because there's an easy mode version of dungeons for leveling doesn't mean that's the point you focus on when you play, why wouldn't you touch challenge modes if you enjoy, you know, a challenge?
I don't really have anything for your leveling point, I personally have 8 level 90s and 1 level 85 and I switch between them each xpac playing the one's that I have more fun with depending on the class mechanic changes at the time, if leveling was slow I probably wouldn't be playing to this day, because the first character I leveled (a DK) almost made me delete the game lol.
I'm not really repeating myself again, the game isn't dumbed down, it's only dumbed down if you dumb it down yourself and don't bother doing any end game. The challenge isn't leveling to max level, the challenge isn't from doing some normal/heroic 5 man dungeons, the challenge isn't from doing LFR (even though it is a complete wipe fest for the first few months of a raid releasing and Blizz has to NERF the raid over and over because players aren't ready, and don't want a challenge, they want gear).
Again, I find it hard to believe you quit because of leveling was too easy, if you were enjoying the game and wanted a "challenge" like everybody here apparently wants, you would've raided.
Not really sure what you mean about the classes either. Maybe 1 spec compared to another spec is fairly similar, I have 183 days played on my Balance Druid and the closest similar spec is Shadow Priest which has been my main since I got 14/14H, and besides knowing basic DoTing mechanics I've had to learn it from scratch.
Overall all classes and specs are different and perform well off of completely different mechanics than the other, but again, it sounded like you didn't raid, so you were probably able to get away with ignoring mechanics and just putting DoTs/HoTs up and doing fine.
For everybody saying WoW is too easy, take a look at this: http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/10/03/patch-5-4-hotfixes-for-october-2/
There's plenty more I could link too, scroll down until you find Siege of Orgrimmar, people begged Blizzard to nerf LFR because it was WAY TOO challenging, it was taking 4-5+ hours to clear a single wing, and sometimes groups just disbanding. Where were you for any of that? Not playing the game? Oh..
The number one flaw in WoW. Rinse/repeat.
What they should have done is this. Normal mode dungeon of place A. Hard mode dungeon of place B. Heroic Mode dungeon of place C. Mythic mode dungeon of place D. You progress to new dungeons, you don't merely flip a switch in the same damn dungeon. Then there would be a purpose to progressing because the content would change. As it stands now, it's the same damn place with different difficulties.
You want to see all the content? Stop farming the same damn dungeon for all eternity. Yeah, it's gonna get harder and harder. That's called progression with a purpose. So what if not everyone gets to see it. They have the same opportunity as everyone else. They choose or choose not to do it. Simple as that.
Can't complain about a lack of new content when there is new content at a harder difficulty just waiting for you to do it.
If players leave in droves because they can't do Place B... then apparently outside of dungeons, there's nothing worth doing in the game. You can still go solo the nerfed dungeons for mounts like you been doing. Nerfs will still come, just like they always do. And the always do. Just unsub, wait for the nerfs, then resub. Simple.
Poor excuse? My wife and I love to play alts and level in wow. In vanilla we never even had a max character when TBC launched. The leveling game is where we enjoyed wow the most. We love to craft, pvp, pve as we level. The launch of Wotlk was the start of the end for us. This brought Aoe dungeon running, account gear, dumbing down of outdoor mobs, xserver with lfg to name a few.
We left during Cata and other than a return a few weeks ago with hope of WOD launch near that things might have change. The return lasted about a week as we realized they have gone as far to even dumb down the leveling content in the latest expansion. My level 85 Hunter could get aggro from a 85 npc and let him beat on him never going below 90% health. Who in their right mind at blizzard thinks that is fun? I guess some do more power to them.
Idk, regular dungeons kept me very busy back in TBC, even though i played several hours a day. I played very casually, and was never interested in raiding. I barely made it to the heroics before WotLK was released.
The problem with current WoW is meaningless 'leveling content' and only the latest raid as 'a real and meaningful content'. There's no progression, and only stuff you ever look forward to is next patch, which makes everything else worthless once again.
No he said UNLESS you're a top tier raider, so anything below Mystic (HC mode) and maybe HC mode (normal mode) has been dumbed down.
And imho he's right. things i think need to be looked at are, dungeons, hc dungeons, leveling content, elites, acquiring loot etc. Might not agree, but to me these areas need a looking at.
It's meaningless to me that's why I said that, I'm a nerdy heroic raider, but some people have fun running through them on different characters, getting the achievements, mounts, upgrades, xmog pieces, you can't complain that the game is too easy, then not do the "challenge mode" version of the dungeons, but say the normal version was easy, but then compare the game to 7 years ago, but then don't even bother doing new content when it's released, I mean, if you don't like the game fine, but it sounds like, from a lot of these posts, people are just attempting to find reasons why they don't like the game, when they really don't have a clue why they do.
Criticisms like: Weird art style, too much grind, it's P2P, I don't like the classes, I don't like raiding, I don't like leveling, I hate Blizzard, the PvP or PvE isn't fun enough, I don't like the community, it takes up too much time, these could be, while I'd disagree, valid reasons to dislike the game and not play, but saying the game is too easy or too dumbed down when you haven't even touched a raid that's been out for over a year and I doubt most people could clear even now, that's called being ignorant.
I mean even saying something like, the leveling is too easy, while it would strike as me as somebody who can't find a proper reason, I could respect that reason, but then I'd ask if you want challenge why wouldn't you raid or arena? But just throwing out blanket statements like the game is dumbed down isn't a proper reason at all.
Well, I don't think it's easy; only levelling is easy; everything in WoW is homologe to all other MMORpg's out there. The magical formula for WoW never before seen success is the way it works, and I mean it works perfectly. And the magical formula includes some stereotypes that MMORPG players love the most. It's an epic game with and epic feeling, why should I lie? If you want it easy you find your way to make it easy, and if you are an Elitist, then this is the game for you, as you can become a truly Wise Man on everything.
I thinks WoD adds more grind but in an interesting way; it brings the Strategical Game to WoW, and this is not, by any way, a bad idea. WoW is getting more and more complex using simple patterns. That's a polished work. And that's why many and so many people play it; as they are in "their world".
I play EVE and maybe is the opposite, but I don't feel like being an enemy of WoW, as it has its own way making things, and many of my friends play it since Vanilla WoW.
I would return to my Home Guild if they allowed members to play more games and not to focus only in WoW. But even being things like that, I am still a member of the guild, and we are not in confrontation to each other.
Where's my answer? Yes, it will take challenge to WoW as it will incorporate new systems, which in the WoW-easy going style many people are aware of and ready to learn at full speed.
It is a question of fangs.
No need to attack and assume. I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours but you don't see me making assumptions about you and yours.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
1) I answered this in this very thread I believe, the game has been made easier and more accessible to new players because people who have been playing for a long time are becoming bored, you not only have to cater to old players, but attract new players as well, making talent trees more understandable, squishing stats to make more sense, removing hit/exp caps, removing DoT snapshotting, haste breakpoints, an ability squish, there's no secret what they're going for, but like I said, it's only dumbed down if you want it to be dumbed down, if you don't want to raid or do any sort of high rated PvP, it's always going to be easy, and that's what players beg for, Blizzard releases LFR (the easiest mode of raids available) and people are wiping on it for 5+ hours and they have to nerf it every other day, look at the patch notes I linked.
2) K?
3) Not worth addressing again, there's actually a good bit of diversity.
4) Again, the classes are different, you said you were a heroic raider, have you done SoO? MV, HoF, ToEs? Anything from this expansion? Because I have, and people still switch characters because of a certain ability or mechanic that helps the raid. But now you also have, instead of long boring talent trees which the majority of people never changed, ever, and just copied from a guide on the internet, a proper talent tree that has the certain skill diversity you're talking about.
Tanks are not the same, DK is self healing, Prot Pally is self healing, Prot Warrior is mitigation, Brewmaster Monk is mitigation, Guardian Druid is mitigation and self healing.
Healers are not the same, Disc Priest is focused on making sure there's bubbles on everybody for big incoming spike damage, Resto Druids is mainly HoTs, Resto Shammy is more AoE instant healing, Holy Pally is more of a tank healer with little AoE healing, MW Monk is AoE with HoTs & instant heals.
Anyways, we can nit pick each others points all day, if you don't wanna play you'll always find a reason, and I'm not getting paid by Blizzard to bring people back to their game, but it sucks to see how misinformed a lot of people are when it comes to this, but really the internet in general.
If you don't like it, don't play, if you like it, play, if you want to leave criticism, whether it's about how your class sucks, or how the game sucks, at least do your research and make sure it's sort of valid at the very least, there's been so many posts here that are just flat out incorrect, like the new models not being able to be turned off, how the game is so easy, ect.
[mod edit]
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
A funny thing is my wife and I felt a lot of the changes were the wrong way. :P It may be a coincidence but since the peak of wow subs during early WOTLK they started to bleed subs. This is also the time that all the changes started that you say were the right way and I say the wrong.
The only thing that matters to my wife and I is we thought the changes were bad and left during the Cata expansion. You can see by this thread were not the only ones that thought this way.
There were some interesting things that happened in WotLK. One being that the population surged and receded, and every time it hit 12-13 million they kept putting up a thread like it was new. A big problem was that all that massive population was spread unevenly. On my server the population was dead, I couldn't do anything despite raiding experience and professions. LFG came in to save the day, so I had something else to do.
At the end of WotLK, that was basically the conclusion of the actual Warcraft RTS storyline that brought everyone there to begin with. Blizzard had/has abandoned the RTS series and they paid for it starting in Cataclysm because nobody gave a shit about any of those characters once Arthas was dead. MoP should not have been made.
I will repeat: Mists of Pandaria shouldn't have been made. It was made because Pandarians are a pet hobby of one of the big wigs, and have been for a long time. They are not part of the western fantasy pantheon, they share too many characteristics with existing iconic western fantasy races like the Dwarves and the Elves that are already established, and marginalize them as a result. To double down on it the new class was made out to be a comical one that is directly tied to a race (Pandarians of course), and the whole expansion was centered around the new race - this after the noticeable ignorance of the Gilneans in the expansion they were introduced.
Oh and yeah, no fucking content being made starting in Cataclysm. I remember the ATROCIOUS year where there was just the 2 identical troll dungeons that you had to run over and over and over and over and they were super long and dragged out.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/