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Why isn't there a discussion about MMOs and the gender divide?
josephP05
Member Posts: 5
Hi there MMORPGers! Long time lurker, first time poster here.
And what better thread to start than the nuclear bomb 'Gamergate'?
For those who don't know (must be nice under that rock), Gamergate is 2 things.
1. Game journalists and their close ties with game company / PR firms. Example would be Jeff Gerstmann being fired from Gamespot for his Kane and Lynch review. Jeff and GS laid out what happened here many years later; 
2. Sexism in Video games; Anita Sarkeesian produces videos around sexism in video games and that led to some gamers issuing real life threats to her that got the FBI involved. http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/17/6225835/fbi-investigating-anita-sarkeesian-threats
This thread is about 2; sexism and it is ironic that I write this thread with a "League of Angels" ad next to it.
The whole sexism thing has gotten so bad that even main stream media (notice how gaming publications are largely silent on this?) are reporting it. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/138012-Brianna-Wu-talks-GamerGate-on-MSNBC-The-Reid-Report
And since MMOs are games, I believe there is a discussion to be had here.
MMOs has broadly speaking, issues when it comes to 'gender'. It isn't just 'nude' females either; Tera / League of Angels / Arcane Saga online etc etc...
Games like Guild Wars2 is really awful and offensive when you just play and see what is happening; http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/09/30/flameseeker-chronicles-guild-wars-2s-gender-divide/
So MMORPGers, what's your take on the whole sexism issue? Is it a case of 'hey sex sells so /shrug'?
Or can MMOs be more inclusive and try not to be so offensive to a particular gender?
Comments
I don't recall saying anything about Anita other than that she produces videos.
Unless it is literally Hitler producing WW2 propaganda videos, I don't see what can justify 'make videos = real life threats serious enough for the FBI to get involved'.
I mean lets get some perspective here. Jesus F Christ.
And the fact that you seem to think real life threats are 'okay' and her argument isn't, speaks volumes.
I self identify as a monkey.
I went to buy a Kindergarten Egg for a friend's kids the other day. I do not know in which countries they are sold so a quick explanation is that they are hollow chocolate eggs with a plastic toy inside. They come in an orange and white packet and it is luck of the draw what toy you get, it maybe a robot or a car or whatever.
So the other day I went to buy a couple of these for my friend's kids (a boy and a girl) and was dismayed that they now come in pink and blue packaging and have been gender separated. I did not buy them, I got some lego instead.
In 2014 it has become acceptable to take a unisex toy and make them gender specific with the moronic and quite archaic (I thought) pink for girls and blue for boys colouring.
The TV and internet is full of sexualised images of women (particularly music videos) aimed at children. Even my niece wants to be (I quote) 'a WAG' when she grows up; what sort of a goal in life is that?
There is not really a conclusion to this, I just look at it and wonder if we are progressing or regressing.
I have never played an MMORPG and seen anything but females put on anything short of a pedestal. They tend to be community cornerstones, often occupying pivotal positions in guilds, if not leading them. I see no problem with the way they are treated in these games, beyond the way that any player is treated.
Modern MMORPG culture is kind of rough in general to everyone, but that's kind of what you accept going in. You either grow a skin, or find friends and block the wider community out if what they say offends you.
There is no specific 'divide' to be discussed here. All I see is a thread created to try and create one.
This isn't a new topic and the example of Tera has had multiple threads when it was new. Personally bikini armour ruins immersion for me as well as little girls in nighties. Read over the old threads however and you'll be surprised to find plenty of real life girls play these games and it is they who play the girls despite the eager dismissiveness of some to assume otherwise.
I'd compare it to magazines; its women who buy those vanity mags with women on them, not men. It's women who talk about how fat some celebrity or other is getting. Sort out your own shit before trying to invent crap about others.
This reasoning tends to be spouted a lot on this issue.
"Gamers are mostly male so nude females sell'
The only issue with this argument is that it is factually wrong. A 2012 study shows that 53% are males and 47% are females.
http://www.geekquality.com/average-gamer-myth/
I do find it humours that people think "I'm a troll' or "I'm looking for a fight".
Yes, cause discussing MMOs is awful and "I looking for a fight' for daring to try and have one!! I mean jeez.. really?
I expected "ad hominem" attacks but man, is that all I'm going to get?
Lurked here long enough to understand though.
I mean, how many threads can you really have with the 'Themepark vs Sandbox' in a life time? The answer is always 'you can have one more'
To be honest, I never expected some posters here to write what they did. Especially Phry; seriously dude?
Sometimes though, a thread gets enough 'good posters' to have a nice discussion.
You are blinding me with your logic here.
Surely if there is no 'divide', I can't possibly create one from a forum thread?
I normally play male characters only in MMOs (I'm male myself), partly because the outfits are generally too much like strippers. In Rift I tried a female character, and I had some 'chain' leggings that basically were invisible, she walked around in underwear. I had to craft something to use as cosmetic armour. As for Tera, it's just hideous and sometimes creepy - aside from all the sexualised little girls, women's boobs wobble around while they're standing still.
In SWTOR you can play an obese male human, but you can't play an obese female one - just a bit 'curvy'.
LOTRO is one of the few games that isn't like this.
In your opening post, you ask the question "can MMOs be more inclusive and try not to be so offensive to a particular gender?"
I'd like to point out that the ads you're reffering to, and the oversexualization of female characters in general, are not exclusively offensive to women. As a male, I find it offensive to be baited in such a way, and I have many facepalm moments when I see female avatars so scantily clad that they look more like strippers than adventurers.
I'm not very familiar with the Gamergate thing you refer to so I'll refrain from commenting on it (I do live under a rock - by choice -).
Now as for a "gender divide" I honestly never witnessed something like that. Sure, boys react to girls differently than they react to other boys, but that's not really a surprise, it's the same IRL. In my circles, girls are always welcome and never discriminated against.
What wouldnt we do without our female healers in our back?
;-)
To answer the OP. When I was young I had the somewhat dubious pleasure of seeing an interesting event at a monkey house in a zoo. It was one giant cage filled with at least 50 monkeys and some of the monkeys would reach out of the bars and beg for food. People threw them popcorn and such. Well one of my friends had brought a banana with her in her purse and thought it would be fun to break it up and feed the little buggers.
At first it went fine, but then she threw a decent sized chunk and the little monkey she aimed at missed it. The banana chunk sailed on into the cage and bounced of the back of one of the larger monkeys causing it to spin around in alarm. It immediately took one look at its nearest neighbor and slapped it in the face, erroneously believing it was this monkey that had struck him. Well monkey number two took offense to this uninstigated assault and decided to show his displeasure of being slapped for no reason by sinking its fangs into monkey number one's ear, which began shrieking in monkey pain and rage. Within seconds the whole cage had erupted into a riot of battling, shrieking, shit flinging moneys, all over something completely innocuous and unintentional to cause offense.
So that's why I personally have no interest in discussing gender issues on gaming forums. Regardless of what side of the argument they may be on, there are always some shit flinging monkeys ready to riot at a moments notice over some imagined offense or wrong doing, making the whole thing farce.
My take? If you dont like it, dont partake in it. If you find it offensive, dont look at it. As an American there is this growing trend that everything has to be monitored and controlled because we cannot think for ourselves. Let me ask you this: Why are you making the determination that it is offensive? Arent YOU the one choosing to feel this way? Personally I dont need sex in my games to enjoy them. I play the games for the story and content and gameplay, not the imagery.
This whole sexism movement is so ridiculous, it is trying to create a problem where there is none. Every time I see this claim put forth its by some radical person who cannot thin kfor themselves.
Don't be silly, of course you can create one. You can spread lazy bad received wisdom and try to create ill feeling where there isn't any. This is a non issue that you are trying to make into one.
Look, stop trying to be smart, and stop editing what people say down to just the bit you feel like you have a snappy clever response to.
If you had wanted to actually reply to my thoughts and have a discussion you would have left my quote intact. As it is, it's looking like you just want to 'win', and I cba with feeding that in all honesty.
Were those female monkeys?? ;-)
As a female gamer, and pro gg, I find the methods used by socalled feminists touting mysogyni at any male who points out their rabid behaviour disgusting. I have played mmo's since 1999 when I started in EQ1, and have never had to deal with sexism in my games. I like my skimpily clad female tooms, and I like my bulky tanks. What I dont like are woman and men, pretending to know about my culture ( gamer culture), going on some white knighting campaign to have games that I AS A WOMAN LOVE, labelled as creations of misogynistic men. They will pick and choose sections of games to support their judgement, even when they are misrepresenting the spirit of the game. It does not matter to them that they are not being truthfull. Their agenda is not ultimately about games. They are what I would call of cult, of women, who hate men! (what is baffling is the group of men, who support them. As if being the loudest Social Justice Warrior out there will get them laid more, with legions of adoring women who need to be rescued from their victim roles, weither imagined or real, through their loud twitter wars on the girls behalf - it would be funny if it wasnt so sad)
- Also, us women, who are not buying into their crap are called sockpuppets, or you say we have been brainwashed by this fictional patriachy they entertain the notion of. How convenient they can just wipe away opinions they dont like, by claiming that GAMERS ARE DEAD, or that the women who disagree with them have been mindwiped by the evil male dominance in their lives. And if you are a guy arguing your point of view, well then, sucks to be you, cause you're obviously misogynistic since you disagree with them.
Since the OP posted links that you shouldnt click on btw. Dont ever click on a sarkeesian link. She does not need the views to back up her crazy, I will post there a link to the sub reddit where the pro gamer gate crowd tries to actually give their side of the story. You know, because they dont get their posts blocked, or get banned for not buying into the whole misogyni, or being cavedwelling men.
http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/
To all the white knights out there. - Try to imagine loving games, but because you are a guy, and solely because you are a guy, any time you try and defend your preferred game, you get shut down, or called names, or whoever disagrees with you, will tout the idea that you are misogynistic to shut you down. Imagine the frustration, the sense of unfairness and the anger. And then marvel at how behaved, logical, and nice the posters in that subreddit are as a whole.
Gamergate is about journalists in the gaming industry not having any ethics or sense of journalistic integrety, and the gamers calling them out on it. - Game journalism is what is dying. Not the gamer culture.
I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.
Trust me, there are plenty of us women in this club, and we dont want your crazy in here either. Social Justice warriors are a menace to culture everywhere.
And btw, that guy, whom you just dismissed because you didnt like his opinion, probably doesnt belong in that old boys club, you so charmingly drew out of your hat. - He is one of the people who get rolled right over, with your pretend discussions. You dont want to entertain any other viewpoints than your own, but yet insist to sit up on your high horse passing judgement on his character, pretending to seek debate, yet turning it away all the time.
The above link will give you a nice overview of Gamergate, from the pro crowd. (full disclosure - I am pro GG)
And that is all that needs to be said
Most of us gamers are exactly like that. Games are inclusive. To find discrimination in them, one most try very hard, or one must find a game tailored to a certain part of the market, and get angry that it doesnt do something else than what it says on the box. - It is full of crazy.
I think that the OP's goal is precisely what you describe. He did say that he wanted to drop an "atomic bomb", so I'm afraid there is nothing innocuous and unintentional here. More like "hey I can't believe these forums are not taking part in that useless gamer drama, let's see if we can have some shit flinging over there as well".
Hey josephP05! Welcome to MMORPG.com! *raspberry*
The reason stuff like this doesn't get discussed more often on MMORPG.com is the same reason that it's become nearly impossible to actually discuss it on the internet. This is a group of people who can barely discuss game mechanics that aren't all that controversial without getting bent out of shape. Get into territory where people start forming opinions that can legitimately expand beyond video games and people basically lose their sh!t. You could probably do a Joker Meme with it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.