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What happened to PKing
Bribaryan
Member Posts: 23
Some of you love it. A lot of you hate it. But let's be honest Pkers adds a thrilling element to any game. It also makes room for anti-pking, and the battle rages on.
I've been playing Path Of Exile recently. Although it's very much a copy / paste of diablo 2, it's excellent and extremely addicting. And extremely fun. But where is the hostile button when we level up and get bored? Even Diablo 2 had that.
It's really not so much about griefing other people, although I understand it is for many. It's the atmosphere that's created. It's hostile, unpredictable, and imho fun.
But more and more I'm seeing games are chopping the balls off of PvP. IT should be an essential in any RPG as much as grouping up.
Grinding mobs, getting awesome loot are two fun things. But eventually your character hits endgame, and without PvP, well, it's over with.....
What do you guys think? Also, anyone know of a good game with the pvp I seek?
Comments
You probably aren't aware of this but your post is the "umpteenth" post proclaiming that "it adds a thrilling element to any game".
What about the people who aren't thrilled about it?
As for me, I have no problems with pk'ers unless they are "dicks" about it.
And that's what happened. Some people used the mechanic to work out their issues or essentially be jerks about it because they could, people complained and then developers started separating, adding battle grounds, putting in "flags" if you wanted to pvp, etc.
Still, there are games that have added it so you should be able to find something.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Idk, I think a lot of people just don't enjoy PvP, I'm pretty competitive so if a game has PvP I don't bother touching it until I know a lot about the game already, because the PvP community in general is completely horrible.
My friends from WoW are semi-hardcore players and most don't even bother with PvP because they say it's too hard, they don't wanna learn it, some have just started because there was over a year of no new PvE content, but most didn't.
I think a lot of people have moved on from PvP, Star Trek was mainly PvP when it launched, now it's changed over to PvE and it's doing better than ever.
Games that have come out as hardcore full loot PvP have been major failures recently. So I can see why it's not a big concern for most game developers, and if it is it's just on Kickstarter begging for money because they threw the name UO in their description.
I wish it was more of a focus in games, but at the same time, I don't want to put up with that community more than I do already in WoW, and that's a big reason why I'm getting tired of it in general. When I'm looking to play a game now, whether or not it has PvP doesn't even come to my mind, like it would've 2 or so years ago.
The problem here OP is that you don't seem to understand that not everyone thinks having PKers "adds a thrilling element" to the game. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it but the fact is that for some people, PKers don't add a thrill. It's just an annoyance, an inconvenience, or something that just outright pisses people off to the point that they stop playing.
I don't have a problem with PvP, in the right environment, but I also understand that for a lot of other players it's something they just don't enjoy. Developers get this as well. If you want a big audience, to attract as many players as possible, you have to drop open PvP or you scare off a huge number of potential customers.
The answer to your question "What happend to PKing" is simple, profit won.
The hard line is that games with PKing that make things easy for the greifing asshats make less money. Because they drive off the players who don't like that sort of thing. Players who have access to a lot of alternatives nowadays. While there are lots of niche areas for people who like different playstyles, as a developer you have to match your expenditures to your income. And player loss is player loss.
No one in my local gaming group will play those PK type games anymore, and that's a lot of subscriptions being lost there. I think it is more representative of general gaming field as well.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
We hear this excuse too many times. Maybe its time for PVE losers to learn PVP, instead of blaming game mechanics?
Yep! These problems have been evident since the first days of UO, and no MMORPG developer since has really come up with an ironclad solution.
Griefers will do their best to manipulate any system or set of rules, but the easier you make it for them, the worse effect it will have on the body of your players.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I understand pvp and pk systems just fine.
Your post seems to assume that all games with open pvp have "certain systems" in place.
And they dont'.
And I played Lineage 2 for over four years. Apparently four and a half.
So you are saying that everyone in Lineage 2 who didn't like pvp had no problem with the perma reds? Or the high level reds who camped themselves on Talking Island?
There were people (who were in the wrong game anyway) who didn't have large guilds to come to their aid. I recall people begging high level players to come to talking island to police it.
and some did. Heck I did. But after a while that just isn't sustainable. Having systems like Archeage or even Wushu seem to be good but there are players who have no issues with being red or getting a slap on the hand and relish pk'ing players over and over again.
This is not an issue but there are people who just don't want to be a part of it. Obviously they are in the wrong games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree to some point. But until devs can make PvE truly awesome, no MMO will feel fresh enough for me in the long term.
I loved the way they did it in Aion. Sure I got ganked by high levels some times. But other time me and some friends went into a rift and had awesome battles with people around our own level.
There was not that much to gain from it unless you actually killed someone that killed other players as well.
I feel like every person on this website instantly labels open world PvP as griefing.. And alot of the time I think they over exaggerate or are simply not into any PvP at all. Aion was one of the games for me that hit that spot with enough reward to get players to PvP in the world, but it also had limited chances and when you died you would most of the time go back to your own continent.
Open world PvP does bring excitement to a world that would been pretty boring and bland. I dont know what the sweet spot is, but in Aion on my server there was a specific player that maxed his equipment for the lower level zone, while staying at the same level. It became a thing, a threat, something high levels would go out of their way to kill.
In the end, a good MMO should be something that the community can and will want to change. The WoW killer will be the game that can pull of a standard AAA themepark experience while bringing in free sandbox elements with player run cities, towns and whatever.
Why people fight against PvP is beyond me, unless it is griefer friendly. But that again is up to the community, and the company developing said game. Give the players power, the power to grief the people who go out of the way to cause people pain.
"Learn" PVP? How is learning anything going to help when you're level 40 and you get jumped by a level 90, or when you're out gathering crafting materials and you get jumped by 5 other people, or when you have some starter crafted pvp gear and you're going against people in full arena gear sets?
Yeah, what they 'learn' is to go spend time in a game that's enjoyable to them, much to the chagrin of the game developers who no longer get their money.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
If people didn't like PVP then games like Battlefield, COD or even more hardcore games like EVE and Dayz wouldn't be so popular.
The problem is the developers, you cannot blame the players.
WoW used to have amazing world PVP, then Blizzard killed it off with Battlegrounds and then flying mounts... nothing to do with the players not wanting it, Blizzard just made it so putting your time into world PVP was worthless.
Just like what was said in an earlier post, MMORPG PvP is dead. Every single popular PvP game that you just named is not an MMORPG. You named 3 lobby/server based shooter games and a space combat game that isn't very popular.
You can blame the players for that. Because the developers will make whatever the players want or their game will die.
Theoretically, the best PvP comes from games where it's skill that matters, not amount of time spent grinding and getting better gear.
Of course, taken to its biggest extreme, and you end up with... well, MOBAs, etc. Given how insanely popular MOBAs are, however, I'd say that validates the theory.
MMO PvP only really appeals to people who want an unfair advantage, or to people who want MEANINGFUL PvP in that it affects the world itself. Unfortunately, the latter is typically within the context of a vertical progression system, which tends to mostly attract and cause the former over time.
Well, let's see.
I played from Prelude to Chronicle 5.
And anyone here who knows what Lineage 2 used to be like (and apparently you don't) will have no problem recognizing what I'm talking about.
Perma reds, perm red clans, people camping talking island because it was out of the way and took a while to get there because you had to get there by boat or pay a lot to get there.
And now in Lineage 2 every race doesn't have it's own starting area.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's pretty debateable dont you think? PvP adds a lot of replay value to a game, rather than hit lvl 100, gg.
The majority of the top games making lots of money, do in fact have some form of pvp for a reason.
I just dont like having my hands tied whenever I log in, to me it's not that thrilling or fun.
My ideal game was UO pre-trammel, nothing has quite matched the experience since....I think the best games of the past had mix of pvp/pve elements, diablo 1-2, UO, etc....
The original poster says that PVP adds some excitement after you level up and get bored. And maybe it does. But what happens before you level up, when you're just getting slaughtered and can't really fight back? Most players don't like that so much.
At some point, developers figured out that a lot of people just want to play the game without being slaughtered by much higher level players against whom they really can't do anything besides die. And that such players will quit the game if much of it consists of getting slaughtered by higher level players. Having most of your players quit to keep the top 5% who chased them away happy for a while, and then that 5% also quits because they decide your game is dead, turns out not to be terribly profitable.
I've only played two MMORPGs that had non-consensual open world PVP without completely ruining things for lower level players. One was Puzzle Pirates, which had no progression. With no progression, you can make your game PVP right from the start and it doesn't consist of high levels picking on low levels. If you're asking for MMORPGs with no progression but open PVP, I wouldn't necessarily be against that, but I don't think that's what you're after.
The other was Uncharted Waters Online, which had major trade-offs in ship design such that a higher level ship built for combat couldn't stay at seas for long and couldn't run down a lower level ship built for speed. It had major penalties for piracy so that not many players dared to be pirates at any given time. It also spread players out across an enormous world, so that if you were careful, you'd maybe get attacked in PVP once per month or so.
They have some FORM of PvP, but not the UO pre-trammel form you desire. As stated in the post you're saying is debateable, PKing makes less money.
Ironically, your mentioned ideal game is a prime example of this. The UO devs have stated repeatedly that trammel saved UO (from a business end) and their private numbers and data made that VERY clear. Of course, they never actually publicized the numbers, but they were very adamant that without Trammel and the resulting playerbase it brought in and held (compared to when UO was bleeding players, according to them), UO would have been shut down.
That's complete nonsense, trammel was followed by an exodus and the game faded away slowly. It was a tipping point for me personally, but it was never as good.
I bet 99% of the UO players you ask what went wrong, and trammel is the answer.
I long for the days of early EQ pk/delevel/corpse runs as many do and believe it or not EQ2 had a damn fine pk system for a couple of years before it got beat into submission. I even enjoyed Runes of Magic PK and honestly once they took it away essentially it killed the game and it's now slowly bleeding to death, which was a great example of people that want such a thing.
It is true that PK can make an mmorpg damn fun, but only if it has multiple layers of risk vs.reward.
If you want some harsh PK you could play Darkfall or EVE, though I would more recommend Asheron's Call or Haven and Hearth if you want something a bit more "classic" which it seems you do.
"Good" PK systems are rare these days. mostly gankfests and lopsided in favor of the pk'er with almost no consequences or reasons to even do so "aka, no looting players". Also on a final note, Sony sucks for closing Wizardry Online, it was one of the best new PK systems out there, damn man Sony just loves to make me despise them, that game was literally murdered and didn't deserve it, underrated gem it was.
According to my reading, UO subscribers peaked at 250K in 2003, THREE YEARS after Trammel. I'd bet the real fadeaway came in 2004, along with a certain other event.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Quoting this because it's true. People don't want to admit it though.