This is merely another branch of political correctness. Everyone has access to Everything, regardless of achievements. Everyone gets a "medal" for participating. Same thing in youth sports now. Don't teach them how to "earn" things in life, give rewards to everyone and take the thrill of working for achievement, out of the equation. This is truly ruining society.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol you loved it whn people outgeared you and 1 shot ganked you did you, lolbull. when someone wants unbalanced they want unfair because they fear losing or love killing others without worrying about skill. In short the players lacks the skill or wit to play in a MMO and needs to turtle behind gear.
Or he doesn't like e-sport PVP at all and is sick of having everything else in the game balanced around it.
In effect saying esport pvp bleeds balance into the rest of the game, but the opposite of balance is imbalance. Imbalance destroys gameplay, it doesn't encourage it. This is an example of playing as if a mmo is a single player game. Bottom line is the player who hits for 100000 and has 1 million health can have fun while the player who hits for 1000 and has 100k health does not. The real trick is having horizontal (skill choice) over power increase in a game - choice is fun.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by bentrim This is merely another branch of political correctness. Everyone has access to Everything, regardless of achievements. Everyone gets a "medal" for participating. Same thing in youth sports now. Don't teach them how to "earn" things in life, give rewards to everyone and take the thrill of working for achievement, out of the equation. This is truly ruining society.
What are you talking about?
e-sport is the opposite of that. To go up in the ladder (or win competition), you have to beat others, and there are only a few slots at the top.
Originally posted by dreamscaper You can thank companies having to cater to multiple age groups, even those younger ones who haven't learned the life lesson yet that the world isn't a fair place.
You think this is about life lessons and age? Oh wow...
EDIT: Come to think of it. This sort of comment is just crazy enough to be a troll. For a minute you got me there...
Not trolling, just my observation. It's less of a life lesson issue and more of a maturity issue.
You don't seem like you have played around "younger ones" based on that observation.
Actually companies tend to cater to the adult age group, you know the ones with more money than time that don't feel like wasting the latter against someone with more time than money^^
They are really pushing the E-sport angle. (Although nobody is interested and its not happening, except at events organised by them.)
And for that reason all the classes are far blander and boring than it was in GW1. And they are afraid to add even one new skill, for two years as the game is out. Just so it wont hurt precious balance.
They should separate the actual game and E-Sport part. Let them balance that and let the game be interesting for a change.
Gw1 was a bad game for its time, its a bad game now as well. Gw2 is light years away from it. There *IS* class balance. There *IS* separation between e-sport and PvE/WvW. Go spread your doom and gloom somewhere else.
Also if you favor zergfests go play Darkfall or some other shit like that and leave my competitive environment alone. Go away at once with your lazynes.
Yeah I bet its fun for you normal attack kill a person 20 levels below you. For the grown ups like us though, challenge and going up the ladder trumps any imbalanced zergshit you can come up with
patdon the language.
I automatically assume a given person is noob in Gw2 when they start saying that classes are bland. I'm sorry if that offends you. Gw2 is so much more than just 10 class skills and dodge.
OP you can blame the large contingent of gamers that want nothing more out of a gaming experience than it to be one long continuous encouraging pat on the head. Any sign of effort or struggle on the players part, such as actually learning to play the game well, must be removed post haste. All they want is a bit of not to difficult nor too long vertical progression to make them feel like they've made some kind of accomplishment. Climbing the stairway to badass as it were. Any game company that steps away from this formula gets them torn to pieces by angry gamers who again don't want anything but a continuous reminder of how awesome they are.
And formula, heysoos mirimba, what a perfect word in this instance. Soothing banal pap that threatens to upset the digestion in no way at all.
Originally posted by bentrim This is merely another branch of political correctness. Everyone has access to Everything, regardless of achievements. Everyone gets a "medal" for participating. Same thing in youth sports now. Don't teach them how to "earn" things in life, give rewards to everyone and take the thrill of working for achievement, out of the equation. This is truly ruining society.
You're the only one bringing politics into this. This is about games, not some red v blue 2016 nonsense.
Go back to watching fuckups news and keep your punditry off our MMO forums... please.
And just for an example... American football is about fairness, and it's HARDLY a 'participation medal' sport. (In fact most professional sports from any country mirrors the same, you're just too busy sucking down that fuckups news koolaid to think for yourself anymore.)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
They are really pushing the E-sport angle. (Although nobody is interested and its not happening, except at events organised by them.)
And for that reason all the classes are far blander and boring than it was in GW1. And they are afraid to add even one new skill, for two years as the game is out. Just so it wont hurt precious balance.
They should separate the actual game and E-Sport part. Let them balance that and let the game be interesting for a change.
Gw1 was a bad game for its time, its a bad game now as well. Gw2 is light years away from it. There *IS* class balance. There *IS* separation between e-sport and PvE/WvW. Go spread your doom and gloom somewhere else.
Also if you favor zergfests go play Darkfall or some other shit like that and leave my competitive environment alone. Go away at once with your lazynes.
Yeah I bet its fun for you normal attack kill a person 20 levels below you. For the grown ups like us though, challenge and going up the ladder trumps any imbalanced zergshit you can come up with
patdon the language.
I automatically assume a given person is noob in Gw2 when they start saying that classes are bland. I'm sorry if that offends you. Gw2 is so much more than just 10 class skills and dodge.
GW1 a bad game? Bad games don't sell 7 million copies.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by dreamscaper You can thank companies having to cater to multiple age groups, even those younger ones who haven't learned the life lesson yet that the world isn't a fair place.
You think this is about life lessons and age? Oh wow...
EDIT: Come to think of it. This sort of comment is just crazy enough to be a troll. For a minute you got me there...
Not trolling, just my observation. It's less of a life lesson issue and more of a maturity issue.
You didn't even try to explain your position. You basically called everyone who liked e-sports immature. Even if you are for real, your comment is certainly not very mature.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
If you're sick of them, don't pay any attention to them. I can't stand football (don't judge), so I don't watch it. When there is news about it, I change the channel. Easy fix.
Originally posted by Quirhid GW1 a bad game? Bad games don't sell 7 million copies.
Sure they do. Unless, of course, in your opinion "Popularity = Good." How's that latest Justin Bieber CD, by the way? What's the latest on the current Survivor show?
I am sorry, but "good/bad" are subjective terms. They are NOT defined by box sales, in my opinion.
PS: NOT saying GW1 was a good or bad game
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn If you're sick of them, don't pay any attention to them. I can't stand football (don't judge), so I don't watch it. When there is news about it, I change the channel. Easy fix.
Good advice, but getting harder to do if one seeks an online gaming experience with other players.
The thing about MMORPGs are the differences between classes, races, and gear. This is not Call of Duty where any soldier can pick any gun and fire away. What happened to the skill of learning the differences and overcoming them?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm in favor of equal opportunity. Which does NOT mean equal chance of success. If you want to be the best, you have to put the practice in, and you have to know counters as if it were a part of you. If a game presents an equal opportunity to obtain the gear and skill, it is fine by me.
I've never known an MMORPG to be perfectly balanced amongst classes at any point, but devs should try to allow all classes to be competitive. The rest is up to the player. But that's just how I would want it to be done at the high level.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
Hey OP, you know what? I agree. E-sports are fun sometimes and skill based is great, I am saying this as someone who both enjoys playing CS GO and Dota 2 weekly however I also want one of those MMOs with soul, I want a game that is not balanced around everyone being equal in everything or everyone having the same tools. Give classes niche roles that they excels in (like EVE). If I wanted a E-sport game I'd play dota or csgo, not a fucking mmoRPG. These days everything has to be so fucking equal and everyone has to have a cookie, fuck that shit.
Originally posted by Quirhid GW1 a bad game? Bad games don't sell 7 million copies.
Sure they do. Unless, of course, in your opinion "Popularity = Good." How's that latest Justin Bieber CD, by the way? What's the latest on the current Survivor show?
I am sorry, but "good/bad" are subjective terms. They are NOT defined by box sales, in my opinion.
PS: NOT saying GW1 was a good or bad game
Of course they are. As you say, "good/bad" is subjective. Popular, by definition, = many find it subjectively "good" for them.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol you loved it whn people outgeared you and 1 shot ganked you did you, lolbull. when someone wants unbalanced they want unfair because they fear losing or love killing others without worrying about skill. In short the players lacks the skill or wit to play in a MMO and needs to turtle behind gear.
Or he doesn't like e-sport PVP at all and is sick of having everything else in the game balanced around it.
I thought the same, read the first paragraph and unfortunteley it isn't. He says "Why does it have to be about skill?"
To the OP i would disagree, it's boring when there is no balance, if you start a game and it's decided before the game has even started, what's the point? I'm just wasting my time. If im playing in the championships against a guy who's bought items that increase 50% dmg or something stupid, whats the point? That won't be an interesting battle at all.
Actually the original big Esport games of Quake and Unreal Tournament had to be equal,so much so people might scoff at the terms back then.
The acceptable ping diff was 50 but most wanted less than 25 ,you might scoff at 25ms but seriously you can notice the difference.The standard became LAN but even then it was proven the main Lan machine could have an edge the odd time albeit ever so slight.
What makes me laugh about Esport now is not much is about skill,it is more about playing a same class or function over and over.Back in the Unreal/Quake days,you had to learn a map inside out and you would NEVER know your opponent so you had to learn his tendencies on the fly.
Now you watch Epsorts and players pretty much already know exactly what the other guy is going to do or is capable of.
It is only my opinion but i feel nothing will ever match the skill set Unreal offered back in the day because it was everyone playing on 56k,you really had to earn your kills and use a lot of deceit/trickery to fool your opponent.Now it is about super fast internet,high bandwidth,stable connections,super high dps,gpus,cpus ,scripts,cheating ect ect.Also the UnrealTourny NG Stat system was really good at determining the best player aside of course from cheating and server gms shutting down before stats could be registered "aka as a form of cheating".
Back in the day your time spent meant you learned a lot by playing other players,now a days time spent = best gear ,best stats and an unfair playing field.IDK about anyone else but when i play esports or REAL sports i want an even opponent,i don't want a handicap system that gives me a distinct advantage.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People who don't like MMOs being fair and balanced (like the OP) tend to be no lifers. They miss how in the old MMOs they could enjoy their advantage over others simply because they are no lifers who can play 16 hours a day.
See what I did there?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Comments
In effect saying esport pvp bleeds balance into the rest of the game, but the opposite of balance is imbalance. Imbalance destroys gameplay, it doesn't encourage it. This is an example of playing as if a mmo is a single player game. Bottom line is the player who hits for 100000 and has 1 million health can have fun while the player who hits for 1000 and has 100k health does not. The real trick is having horizontal (skill choice) over power increase in a game - choice is fun.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
What are you talking about?
e-sport is the opposite of that. To go up in the ladder (or win competition), you have to beat others, and there are only a few slots at the top.
You don't seem like you have played around "younger ones" based on that observation.
Actually companies tend to cater to the adult age group, you know the ones with more money than time that don't feel like wasting the latter against someone with more time than money^^
Gw1 was a bad game for its time, its a bad game now as well. Gw2 is light years away from it. There *IS* class balance. There *IS* separation between e-sport and PvE/WvW. Go spread your doom and gloom somewhere else.
Also if you favor zergfests go play Darkfall or some other shit like that and leave my competitive environment alone. Go away at once with your lazynes.
Yeah I bet its fun for you normal attack kill a person 20 levels below you. For the grown ups like us though, challenge and going up the ladder trumps any imbalanced zergshit you can come up with
patdon the language.
I automatically assume a given person is noob in Gw2 when they start saying that classes are bland. I'm sorry if that offends you. Gw2 is so much more than just 10 class skills and dodge.
OP you can blame the large contingent of gamers that want nothing more out of a gaming experience than it to be one long continuous encouraging pat on the head. Any sign of effort or struggle on the players part, such as actually learning to play the game well, must be removed post haste. All they want is a bit of not to difficult nor too long vertical progression to make them feel like they've made some kind of accomplishment. Climbing the stairway to badass as it were. Any game company that steps away from this formula gets them torn to pieces by angry gamers who again don't want anything but a continuous reminder of how awesome they are.
And formula, heysoos mirimba, what a perfect word in this instance. Soothing banal pap that threatens to upset the digestion in no way at all.
You're the only one bringing politics into this. This is about games, not some red v blue 2016 nonsense.
Go back to watching fuckups news and keep your punditry off our MMO forums... please.
And just for an example... American football is about fairness, and it's HARDLY a 'participation medal' sport. (In fact most professional sports from any country mirrors the same, you're just too busy sucking down that fuckups news koolaid to think for yourself anymore.)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
GW1 a bad game? Bad games don't sell 7 million copies.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You didn't even try to explain your position. You basically called everyone who liked e-sports immature. Even if you are for real, your comment is certainly not very mature.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
B2P not F2P.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I self identify as a monkey.
I am sorry, but "good/bad" are subjective terms. They are NOT defined by box sales, in my opinion.
PS: NOT saying GW1 was a good or bad game
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The thing about MMORPGs are the differences between classes, races, and gear. This is not Call of Duty where any soldier can pick any gun and fire away. What happened to the skill of learning the differences and overcoming them?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'm in favor of equal opportunity. Which does NOT mean equal chance of success. If you want to be the best, you have to put the practice in, and you have to know counters as if it were a part of you. If a game presents an equal opportunity to obtain the gear and skill, it is fine by me.
I've never known an MMORPG to be perfectly balanced amongst classes at any point, but devs should try to allow all classes to be competitive. The rest is up to the player. But that's just how I would want it to be done at the high level.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
Of course they are. As you say, "good/bad" is subjective. Popular, by definition, = many find it subjectively "good" for them.
I thought the same, read the first paragraph and unfortunteley it isn't. He says "Why does it have to be about skill?"
To the OP i would disagree, it's boring when there is no balance, if you start a game and it's decided before the game has even started, what's the point? I'm just wasting my time. If im playing in the championships against a guy who's bought items that increase 50% dmg or something stupid, whats the point? That won't be an interesting battle at all.
Seek something else. Is that the only entertainment that is fun for you?
No devs owe us entertainment that we like.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Actually the original big Esport games of Quake and Unreal Tournament had to be equal,so much so people might scoff at the terms back then.
The acceptable ping diff was 50 but most wanted less than 25 ,you might scoff at 25ms but seriously you can notice the difference.The standard became LAN but even then it was proven the main Lan machine could have an edge the odd time albeit ever so slight.
What makes me laugh about Esport now is not much is about skill,it is more about playing a same class or function over and over.Back in the Unreal/Quake days,you had to learn a map inside out and you would NEVER know your opponent so you had to learn his tendencies on the fly.
Now you watch Epsorts and players pretty much already know exactly what the other guy is going to do or is capable of.
It is only my opinion but i feel nothing will ever match the skill set Unreal offered back in the day because it was everyone playing on 56k,you really had to earn your kills and use a lot of deceit/trickery to fool your opponent.Now it is about super fast internet,high bandwidth,stable connections,super high dps,gpus,cpus ,scripts,cheating ect ect.Also the UnrealTourny NG Stat system was really good at determining the best player aside of course from cheating and server gms shutting down before stats could be registered "aka as a form of cheating".
Back in the day your time spent meant you learned a lot by playing other players,now a days time spent = best gear ,best stats and an unfair playing field.IDK about anyone else but when i play esports or REAL sports i want an even opponent,i don't want a handicap system that gives me a distinct advantage.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People who don't like MMOs being fair and balanced (like the OP) tend to be no lifers. They miss how in the old MMOs they could enjoy their advantage over others simply because they are no lifers who can play 16 hours a day.
See what I did there?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.