Originally posted by Alverant Yes, lockboxes are technically gambling. It doesn't matter if you can't use whatever item you win out of game. You pay money for a chance at something. As long as this game of chance is kept honest (odds given for a given item are accurate and the "randomizer" meets legal standards), it should be legal.
The three elements that are required for something to be gambling are:
1. Chance: Game of Chance (not skill)
2. Consideration: Pay money (or something of material value) to play
3. Prize: Recieve money (or something of material value) if you win.
When Diablo III added the RMT Auction house, it was deemed gambling in Korea. You paid money for the game, you got random drops, and then you could sell them for real money. Almost all MMO's are games of chance (random drops). They only factors that stop them from being gambling are the money in and/or money out. Lockbockes add the money in element for F2P games (P2P games have the purchase price already). However, for them to be gambling, you would have to have a legal method to get money out.
Originally posted by Seeker728 Spoken like a true slave of the State, hail the State, Pray for the State, the State can do no wrong. This is what public schools and professors in classrooms teach and idiots like you gobble it up hook, line, and sinker; because having to grow up and accept responsibility for your own choices is way too much work.
Those rich businessmen who got you to say that are laughing at you all the way to the bank as they avoid prison. The State protects us from enemies both foreign and Domestic. You may get a laugh out of giving aid and comfort to this counties enemies. But it wont last for ever. Eventually they will turn on you, they are this countries enemies.
Your "protector" the State is OWNED by the big banks, insurance companies and corporations. How do you expect them to "protect" you from those who OWN them? Not to mention the influence various foreign states have purchased back in DC.
The State has no legitimate interest in games as long as they do not commit fraud.
I find it disturbing that with time and enough stupidity from the masses they will end up declaring gift surprise boxes, trading cards, toys expending machines, etc illegal or only tradeable under gambling special laws.
I wouldnt expect less from our wise rulers. Not to mention the sheeps that legitimize them.
Two things will drive governments to act on it: pressure groups that highlight the negative effects of addiction in games that focus on players spending an unlimited amount of money; the fact that this form of gambling is not taxed. This is a form of gambling, that it does not return real cash is relevant to the form of gambling, not whether it is gambling or not.
There's absolutely no doubt that as this becomes more prevalent, especially in mobile apps, some governments will begin to take some form of action.
NO.....plain and simple! Games are for fun and entertainment only and it's buyer beware of CS contents and the hidden treats they offer players. No one is spending ur money but YOU!
The only role the government should have in the online gaming industry is ensuring our internet infrastructure is protected from unlawful interference and that the internet is available for the fair use of all.
Are the content of lockboxes known and constant? No. Then they are a form of gambling.
How much should governments intervene the online gaming industry? How much control should a government exert over a threat to public safety? Gambling leads to crimes such as theft and murder. Gambling favors the house. When the player finds himself in a hole, they can resort to theft and murder to get out of it. In this country the government is expect to control things that are a threat to public safety, be it terrorism, industrial waste, or crime.
If the strongest economy on earth(China) can’t supports its gamers’ MMO expenses then no expansion will hold gamers in this economy. I expect WoW’s numbers to jump from 6.8 mil to 8.8 mill, then drop off at 0.2 mil per back down to 6.8 and continue to fall. As more gamers continue to leave the spending population.
WoW will change publishers in China.
You logical argument is pretty broad and could be applied to several aspects of gaming. Are the contents of boss loot boxes known and constant? How about mobs? Is any chest in any game ever known and constant? Do you have to pay a fee at some point to access any of that content or game? When you pay a subscription or box fee to a game is the loot completely constant and the path through the game predictable? No. You're spending money on a chance to get "loot" and rewards. Gambling.
You do realize you're just reiterating my point, and not contradicting it?
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by red_cruiser The only role the government should have in the online gaming industry is ensuring our internet infrastructure is protected from unlawful interference and that the internet is available for the fair use of all.
Way to pick and choose, Barbarossa.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The government should just work on getting their house in order first. How passing laws to make private companies richer is helping us I don't know. How the lobby program is not a breach of ethics I don't know. How workers can move back and forth from private companies to federal government jobs I just don't know.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I wouldn't exactly call lockboxes gambling, not more than looting anything. And if you would they could just put you in a small room with a very simple enemy that drops a box when killed to bypass the law, that is selling "content".
I am far more worried to what lockboxes and items with stats do to the games economy, as OP wrote deciding to buy something should really be up to an adult, everyone do have the rights to make decisions for themselves unless they affect others negatively and deciding how to waste our own money is our business (except when you buy illegal stuff or support criminals).
But selling endgame items either as they are or in lockboxes kinda flushes the games economy down the toilet. Skins, good lower level stuff (preferably account bound), pots and similar stuff doesn't affect the games economy and is fine but since the point of many MMOs is to get endgame gear then selling it for real money takes away the point of the game and is shooting yourself in your own foot if you are a game developer.
I don't see a way to stop any of it in a free market society.
I agree, there needs to be better policing, and better coding by the developers. Ways to track certain words and activities. They need to be required to have more staff. There are things I've seen said in the chats that should result in an autoban on who said it.
However, government involvement needs to stop there.
So the story talks about 'are lockboxes gambling', and that the largest economy in the world gets to pay less for WoW AND they only have to pay for the time they are actually playing, but the lockboxes nonsense gets all the posts?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I wouldn't exactly call lockboxes gambling, not more than looting anything. And if you would they could just put you in a small room with a very simple enemy that drops a box when killed to bypass the law, that is selling "content".
I don't understand how looting and lockboxes could be compared. They both have randomization, but that is about as close as they get unless it costs money to open a loot bag.....................cough Archeage cough...........
I don't think throwing a player in a room to kill a mob would bypass the law at all. Casinos could set up their slot machines to work like Mousetrap, and it still would not change the fact that it is gambling.
Originally posted by Alverant Yes, lockboxes are technically gambling. It doesn't matter if you can't use whatever item you win out of game. You pay money for a chance at something. As long as this game of chance is kept honest (odds given for a given item are accurate and the "randomizer" meets legal standards), it should be legal.
I would argue that it's not the same as gambling. When you gamble you put your money on the line and take a chance as losing it completely (meaning you get nothing if you lose.) With lockboxes you always win something, so basically you're just buying an item. You just don't know what that item is yet. Kind of like buying a grab bag.
He had decided long ago he would force online gambling out of the casino business. So he then hired lobbyist on his behalf, lobbied the entire congress and world governments. This man wants a monopoly on gambling and he doesn't care about stepping on Internet gaming while doing so. He is going to make sure the only place on this earth that you gamble is in HIS casino's only! This man is so powerful that he gets everything he wants, from both sides of the isle. Sheldon Adelson is a monopoly on law making!
SO.... If you want your online gambling back or even a sweepstakes in your online game, your going up against a very powerful man who is steping, nay "STOMPING" on online gaming in the form of a wide canon aimed at onling gambling.
Who can take this giant down? No one. Not a single person can stop this from happening to Onling gaming.... The man is too powerful!
Originally posted by meonthissite I think that here in the USA there's not enough of a role partly because we have old codgers who don't know how to use their cell phones much less make important ground breaking decisions on technology or gaming. They need to be more involved in the gaming process because I'm seeing a disturbing rise n the number of games that have become P2Progress and we need a court or legislative decision to make this illegal here in the US. They did this in several other countries to keep the gaming companies honest. It basically forces these companies to make their games and all of the progression within actually Free to Play or as I like to call it Free to Progress without ever spending a dime in the store. I think that the companies here take advantage of the sheer lack of legislation on that but what's more disturbing are the number of idiots out there who will defend the practice of forcing people to buy from the store in these games or forcing people to subscribe when they are calling the game free. It's like having some fool tell you that you're the problem when you see them charging outrageous prices on water because the water was advertised to have healing properties in the name of some religion. It's crazy these people defending these practices. I've been seeing it happen since 2012 in every major title that's been released. Scores of fanboys being taken advantage of to only months later tell us all that they are bored and don't feel right. Well of course you're bored and don't feel right you were just taken for your money and you were manipulated into buying something that wasn't finished.
Right, and the US should also pass a law stating that casinos should allow gamblers to win 50% of the time.
The only one getting fleeced is you... you allow yourself to be fleeced... but you need some government oversight committee to serve as your judgement for you... to protect you from yourself. What do you want, a padded room for your own protection?
People need to learn that if they spend $150 for early early early access to a game, they just gave away $150 and live with it. No one held a gun to their head. They did this of their own free will. You would have the government step in and tell them, NO, you are not allowed to spend your money that way. In fact, you have exceeded your allowable gaming time for the month and are banned from ANY server for the next 6 months.
Learn to use that little thing up in that skull... it can be mush if you let it, but if you work at it, it does make some mighty fine decisions.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
The three elements that are required for something to be gambling are:
1. Chance: Game of Chance (not skill)
2. Consideration: Pay money (or something of material value) to play
3. Prize: Recieve money (or something of material value) if you win.
When Diablo III added the RMT Auction house, it was deemed gambling in Korea. You paid money for the game, you got random drops, and then you could sell them for real money. Almost all MMO's are games of chance (random drops). They only factors that stop them from being gambling are the money in and/or money out. Lockbockes add the money in element for F2P games (P2P games have the purchase price already). However, for them to be gambling, you would have to have a legal method to get money out.
Your "protector" the State is OWNED by the big banks, insurance companies and corporations. How do you expect them to "protect" you from those who OWN them? Not to mention the influence various foreign states have purchased back in DC.
The State has no legitimate interest in games as long as they do not commit fraud.
I find it disturbing that with time and enough stupidity from the masses they will end up declaring gift surprise boxes, trading cards, toys expending machines, etc illegal or only tradeable under gambling special laws.
I wouldnt expect less from our wise rulers. Not to mention the sheeps that legitimize them.
Two things will drive governments to act on it: pressure groups that highlight the negative effects of addiction in games that focus on players spending an unlimited amount of money; the fact that this form of gambling is not taxed. This is a form of gambling, that it does not return real cash is relevant to the form of gambling, not whether it is gambling or not.
There's absolutely no doubt that as this becomes more prevalent, especially in mobile apps, some governments will begin to take some form of action.
You do realize you're just reiterating my point, and not contradicting it?
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Way to pick and choose, Barbarossa.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I wouldn't exactly call lockboxes gambling, not more than looting anything. And if you would they could just put you in a small room with a very simple enemy that drops a box when killed to bypass the law, that is selling "content".
I am far more worried to what lockboxes and items with stats do to the games economy, as OP wrote deciding to buy something should really be up to an adult, everyone do have the rights to make decisions for themselves unless they affect others negatively and deciding how to waste our own money is our business (except when you buy illegal stuff or support criminals).
But selling endgame items either as they are or in lockboxes kinda flushes the games economy down the toilet. Skins, good lower level stuff (preferably account bound), pots and similar stuff doesn't affect the games economy and is fine but since the point of many MMOs is to get endgame gear then selling it for real money takes away the point of the game and is shooting yourself in your own foot if you are a game developer.
I don't see a way to stop any of it in a free market society.
I agree, there needs to be better policing, and better coding by the developers. Ways to track certain words and activities. They need to be required to have more staff. There are things I've seen said in the chats that should result in an autoban on who said it.
However, government involvement needs to stop there.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I don't understand how looting and lockboxes could be compared. They both have randomization, but that is about as close as they get unless it costs money to open a loot bag.....................cough Archeage cough...........
I don't think throwing a player in a room to kill a mob would bypass the law at all. Casinos could set up their slot machines to work like Mousetrap, and it still would not change the fact that it is gambling.
I would argue that it's not the same as gambling. When you gamble you put your money on the line and take a chance as losing it completely (meaning you get nothing if you lose.) With lockboxes you always win something, so basically you're just buying an item. You just don't know what that item is yet. Kind of like buying a grab bag.
Want the truth? You can't handle the truth! LOL.
Seriously side though. This all started with Online gambling, and ONE man behind it all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Adelson Sheldon Adelson.
http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2014/10/01/sheldon-adelson-criticizes-internet-gambling/
http://www.casino.org/news/sheldon-adelson-delivers-keynote-g2e-gambling-summit
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2014/06/03/sheldon-adelson-is-winning-his-war-against-online-gambling/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2013/11/22/sheldon-adelson-says-he-is-willing-to-spend-whatever-it-takes-to-stop-online-gambling/
Who is Sheldon Adelson?
Casino Owner of casinos in Las Vegas and China Sands in China
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/las-vegas-sands-3q-revenue-drops-profit-grows-26222701
and top funder of AIPAC http://www.aipac.org/ which both the Democrats and Republicans have to pander to
and owner of all the republican presidential Candidates
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-29/republican-presidential-hopefuls-in-vegas-to-woo-donor-adelson.html
furthermore, owner of key figureheads in the democratic party
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/politics/hillary-clinton-vegas/index.html owns hiliary Clinton
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/08/harry-reid-sheldon-adelson_n_5288039.html owns Harry Reid
What does he want?
He had decided long ago he would force online gambling out of the casino business. So he then hired lobbyist on his behalf, lobbied the entire congress and world governments. This man wants a monopoly on gambling and he doesn't care about stepping on Internet gaming while doing so. He is going to make sure the only place on this earth that you gamble is in HIS casino's only! This man is so powerful that he gets everything he wants, from both sides of the isle. Sheldon Adelson is a monopoly on law making!
SO.... If you want your online gambling back or even a sweepstakes in your online game, your going up against a very powerful man who is steping, nay "STOMPING" on online gaming in the form of a wide canon aimed at onling gambling.
Who can take this giant down? No one. Not a single person can stop this from happening to Onling gaming.... The man is too powerful!
Right, and the US should also pass a law stating that casinos should allow gamblers to win 50% of the time.
The only one getting fleeced is you... you allow yourself to be fleeced... but you need some government oversight committee to serve as your judgement for you... to protect you from yourself. What do you want, a padded room for your own protection?
People need to learn that if they spend $150 for early early early access to a game, they just gave away $150 and live with it. No one held a gun to their head. They did this of their own free will. You would have the government step in and tell them, NO, you are not allowed to spend your money that way. In fact, you have exceeded your allowable gaming time for the month and are banned from ANY server for the next 6 months.
Learn to use that little thing up in that skull... it can be mush if you let it, but if you work at it, it does make some mighty fine decisions.
Here is an interesting read. http://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"