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Play to win vs Pay to win
jimmydatwin
Member UncommonPosts: 68
My take on the Pay to win debate (Not that anyone cares)
Do we want a game where everyone has equal gear with no chance to improve it from lvl 1 on? I don't.
Is it wrong for someone who is unemployed and plays 18 hours a day to have better gear than me? I don't think so
With that thinking should someone with a lot of disposable income, who works 6 X14 hour days a week, start asking everyone else to play less.... I mean the game is play to win.
I got absolutely no problem if 100 people on my server pay 10k real money (Thats one million dollars guys) and have the best gear around, if the money is spent making the game I play better. I'll even graciously lose to them in pvp for the next year while I catch up without blowing my bank.
This is the real world and like everything else in the real world you have several ways to get what you want. I am a reasonably attractive man, of middle class wealth. Can I score a perfect 10 woman with no effort....not likely. Would an extra 3 zeros in my bank account increase my odds...absolutely. WTF thats pay to win..... Would trying to win that woman over for a few months increase my odds....absolutely. Thats play to win.
Its a game yes, but the company and players that enjoy it are in the real world so its going to have some real world principles. No online game will ever be fair to everyone as everyone has different amounts of time to play and money to spend.
There is nothing in the cash shop that gives an unfair instant advantage. Labor is tough, but I have spent nothing in the cash shop and have 4 characters (2 slots bought on auction for 60g each) that can take 2 labor potions a day each and I can buy them on the auction for 10g/each. So I spend 80g/day max on labor pots if needed and it greatly increases my earnings running trade packs/fishing and farming. If I don't need any extra labor then I don't take any pots and I have never had to take more than 4 pots in 12 hours or 6 in 24 hours.
TLDR: If you want fair for everyone then we should have no cash shop and all only be allowed 2 hours max play time per day, with everyone having the same gear, but that game sounds like it sucks. I have a feeling those that don't have the money to spend have more free time and expect there time investment to get them ahead of "the whales" who want to use there money to get ahead. Bottom line is stop looking at what your neighbor has and enjoy what you have and your gaming time will be much more enjoyable. You can't win every fight anyway.
Comments
The labor point system is the same revenue system that tons of facebook and mobile games use. It's not just pay-to-win. It's pay-to-play-more-to-win. You pay them more, you get to play more, you get more items and better gear from playing more, you win.
It's a tried-and-true business model that enourages maximum spending by both those who want to win, and those who want to play more, and it works like a charm which is why so many facebook and mobile games do it.
Toss in cash-shop items that increase gear enhancement success rates and lottery boxes that contain the best mounts in the game (another tried-and-true facebook/browser game strategy) and you have a business recipe for success! (from a revenue standpoint, that is)
I never adopted an opinion on P2W, positive or negative. It's a business model.
The only thing I preoccupy myself with is whether the game is fun for me to play. Then, if it is, do I decide how much I'm willing to spend on my entertainment.
Isn't the point of every game to play and win?
We P2W because we don't have or want to spend as much time as other players do. I certainly have spent money on cash shops with this exact purpose in mind, but I don't run around forums making posts that cash shop games aren't P2W.
I simply don't feel the need to justify my actions as being morally ok, because the developers create game mechanics that allow me to skip content that other players have to tread.
Do we need another thread on this a month in for everyone to just give the same opinions in over and over.
This subject is worn out and tedious, and everyone has made up their minds where they stand.
Time to move on.
I share the perspective of Bikeman right now.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNezshrDZeE
I agree, but in Archeage these items are all available on the auction at a reasonable price, so if these items are "win" items you don't have to pay to win, you can play to win as well (make gold and buy items on Auction). I agree that it is a great business recipe for people with less time, but I dont think it hurts those of us with more time.
I agree and have used cash shops in other games as well. I just don't understand the outrage if all items in cash shop are available in a game you can play for free and still have everything in the game that someone who spends money has (via apex). In EQ2 for the longest time you were locked out of classes and quality gear for years as a free to play and Sony wasn't the devil for their FTP model, it was viewed as an extended trial. I just don't see how archeage FTP model isn't one of the best models out there. Only real restriction is labor regen and land ownership that can be fixed with 160-200 gold a month (I made 250 gold 2 days ago running trade packs for 5 hours).
For someone who is tired of the P2W debate, you came to a thread about it and posted in it.........if your done with the discussion move on, I hadn't given my 2 cents yet and last I checked the forums are a place I can express my opinion even if others already have expressed theirs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
If you can't afford to P2W then you shouldn't be playing P2W games. If you can't afford P2W, move on and stop complaining. It's ridiculous to me that people "accuse" games of P2W. Look at the facts about the game, decide and either accept what they offer for the price or move on.
If someone feels that this game is P2W and that bothers you then don't give them any money. I know I won't.
I can agree with this. In a game like WoW it doesn't matter as much. Progression is capped at a point that is easily accessible for both casuals and hardcores. Eventually the casuals will be on equal footing.
In a game like AA, progression is seemingly neverending. Not really but that's how it feels sometimes. Basically it is a game that those who get to play more will always be better, but there is some Pay to Boost included in the cashshop to assist those with money but less time.
Labor is a system where Labor is a commodity. You can sell your labor much like in real life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the labor system.
Many things about AA wouldn't work in other games, especially pure themepark games. but for AA they are fine. For a game like this to truly be fair to all players, they would have to cap playtime to 2 hours per day and remove the cash shop. Which won't happen. If you JUST removed the cash shop, casuals would never make it in this world.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Personally, I don't really care or, for that matter, see much difference between the pay-to-win and over-play to win folks. I'm not in either of the two categories and consequently will never be "the best" in any MMO.
That's a race that I don't run in and, IMHO, it's an incorporation of FPS hyper-competitive principles into a genre that was never meant to be about that (thanks WOW scenario PVP.) To me RPGS and MMOs are supposed to be about enjoying the time you spend there and not about scoreboards as if everyone wanted to approach them as e-sports... we don't all want to do that.
So... coming from that perspective, I couldn't give less of a shit about whether someone can buy or 24/7 over-play the game to the top. I just wish MMOs would get it over with and finally implement "pro" servers so that those people who do want to approach MMOs as a round in an MMA fight - and there are definitely some of you who do-- can go there and fill their boots...
....then the rest of us can just go about our business of playing in and enjoying a game world without all the extra drama and bickering that the P2W discussions always brings.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think this guy explains the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBT7_I3KmR0&feature=youtu.be&t=35m37s
A labor point cash shop system isn't for casuals. It's for hard-core. The point of a labor point revenue system is you pay so you can play MORE. Only the hardcore have enough TIME (and "enthusiasm/dedication/whatever) to actually play the game enough to use all their LP in the first place (and thus to need labor point potions in the first place)
The casual gamer rarely runs out of labor points in the first place. Therefore the casual person rarely needs to buy labor potions in the first place. It's the hard core that this cash system caters to because they're the ones that want the labor points.
The business model is so successful because it's also the hardcore that are willing to "whale it up" in the first place too. Your typical casual person is not just casual about gameplay, but also casual about spending. It's the obsessive hardcore that typically dump thousands upon thousands of dollars in a game, usually, so a cash shop that caters to them is a tried and true business model (and one of the reasons why so many facebook and browser games use a system similar to labor points)
Yep I completely agree with this assessment. I'm playing AA as a patron and not doing much crafting at all. Mainly just gathering and refining for the XP. I have around 125 loyalty points I've never used because I just don't need to. My labor has never gone below 1500 even after marathon ingot/lumber/brick making, and even making a set of armor and weapon for my level. Its not the casuals that need to dump money into the game to progress.
How quickly opinions change around here eh? that is why you can not trust anyone (including me ofc lol).
For someone who used to call F2P gimmick on ESO forum and those who play and defend F2P games a fool because these MMOS are designed to squeeze money out of the naive and would never give its players quality content updates ...is now defending AA.
Shows how much credibility people got around here.
As long as you're willing to ignore the meaning of words, the above-quoted could appear to be a defense of AA. But then I guess to your black and white brain, not actively hating and dumping on whichever game happens to be popular falls under the category of "defending" it... and here I thought it was a pretty general statement about the P2W discussion and not specifit to AA
The youtube review you linked above actually has many things I agree with about AA. However, you do it a disservice by linking it since many here will just dismiss it out of hand simply because it's you who linked it...just saying
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Disagree with pretty much all that's being said here. It's all arse about face IMO.
The casuals/ time poor in AA buy the labour pots to get easy gold, and the hardcore buy them for in game gold. I do not know one 'hardcore' that spends real money on labour pots.
So, the business model here succeeds mostly because it allows casuals/ time poor to stay competitive through the spending of real money.
The hardcore aren't even paying a sub in this game. The casuals buy Apex to sell for gold.
Oh, and send me that labour please, I usually get through all mine so easily daily just from mining and AFK processing, including pots, and I am not really that hardcore in relation to some.
Not it what it is. Other people you were tearing down in past also said the same thing basically. But i guess it wasn't enough for them to be spared by the good old bashing simply because they chose to play a F2P game. I have learned over the years on these forums that as long as you are 'enjoying' a game everything is fair.
Intelligent post.
Two Points here;
One, I am paying a sub right now, as part of my founders package, and I haven't spent a penny more in the CS and am very happy in the game and feel like I am progressing really nicely. But then, I don't expect to be fully geared up in the best there is in a month of play. Maybe it's the old school gamer in me... I like stuff to require time and investment in MMORPGs.
My funds are building nicely towards getting to that point where I can finish my gear. Over time through regular play. I don't feel at all driven to spending real money.
If what the poster here means by spending 'real money' is my sub, then ok, I get that. I fully admit paying a month or two of sub at the start, until the newb gets enough in the bank to buy Apex, is a good idea (though I do know folks that have just chilled and earn't the cash playing F2P to do that same thing). After that though if you are not earning enough gold to achieve then you just need to play smarter and be better.
I was just as you are happily and slowly building my gear and saving money and such. You haven't hit the wall and you will and it will just about make you flip out. So this is what will happen. That weapon you are slowly upgrading will reach lvl 44. Then you will upgrade it to the sealed item. Then its a random item that pulls from that sealed item and guess what. You have about a 20% chance of it being the item that can be further upgraded to the lvl 50. There is a 80% chance that the item will be another lvl 44 item that cannot be further upgraded. You must do this three times before you can break down the useless item so you can create the item for the lvl 50 upgrade that is required. Ok that's great but now you upgrade the item to lvl 50 sealed item and now you got the same problem again.
Lets say you did this with an armor piece. Well to get the set bonus from the armor you have to roll the exact piece of armor for each item slot or it doesn't count towards the set. This is all just for the first tier of lvl 50 gear. That costs approx. 1k gold for each item. Sorry man but I just rained on your parade. Now maybe you can see what the fuss is all about.
Since your entire point seems to rely on incorrectly telling me what I have done, what point I have reached, and how I feel about it, I feel I must throw your posts in the bin out of hand from here on in.
Not only have I hit your wall, I have started to climb it at a comfortable and acceptable to me rate. Just by playing.
But... I have answered you several times in this thread, but you seem to just ignore what others say. So, yeah. I think we night be done here.